why does competitive smash get so much hate outside of the community?

[thatoneguy1]

sorry if this is in the wrong place but its just been on my mind.

 

[bountyxhunted]

sorry if this is in the wrong place but its just been on my mind.

I think it's cause smash is so wildly different from any other fighter. So they just take it as it was supposed to be, a party game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So much hate from whom? Internet trolls?

 

[thatoneguy1]

As somebody coming from street fighter into smash i never saw it that way but that could be because i've been playing melee since i was 6.

 

[bountyxhunted]

As somebody coming from street fighter into smash i never saw it that way but that could be because i've been playing melee since i was 6.

well some of the more hardcore traditional fighting game players have no respect for it.

 

[CaptainKirby]

I see a lot of the hate mostly reigning from casual "elitists," honestly. Yes, you heard me right.

In fact, the Smash fanbase may be the only one in itself to even have such a thing as casual elitists.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

+1 to CK's comment.

Essentially, it's infinitely less complex than some of the best fighting games. The disparity between high-level Smash and, as examples, high-level Third Strike or KoFXIII, is just incredible.

It's still a party game at its core, and it's not designed to be competitive to begin with. That's just what the Smash community has made it into.

That said, there's lots of trash within the "fighting game" category as well. lolNRSfighters

 

[Narpas_sword]

Because other fighters see smash like melee players see brawl.

It's just perception,
And that the loudest get heard

 

[FoxBlaze71]

If only the "loudest" got heard, then all of the lemmings that flooded in this year for Smash 4 would have convinced us all that Brawl is amazing and item FFAs are the pinnacle of competition.

The reality is that real fighters (and I'm not including the usual Marvel, BB, other casual fighters here, because that would be like citing Brawl against Smash) are a lot deeper than anything yet to appear in Smash. The skill gap between them is massive.

I understand why people prefer Smash (more freedom in movement, variety in stages, etc.) but it's best the two stay seperate. Smashers that cry to the FGC for acceptance are only making the rest of us look dumber. They're both unique categories with their own positives and negatives.

 

[Narpas_sword]

'heard' and 'listened to' are different.

You obviously heard the 'lemmings'. You just proved that.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

True, but if that's the case, then it doesn't mean that people (in this case, the traditional FGC) are given their desired attention just because they're loud. The reason they can still hold onto their ideas is that they're not completely wrong. It's just that people sometimes lose sight of the fact that there are differences of opinion, and you get people on both sides ranting about their game being objectively better.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm saying it skews perception. It's a bias.
People hear the loud ones and assume that 'all' the players are like that.

 

[thatoneguy1]

+1 to CK's comment.

Essentially, it's infinitely less complex than some of the best fighting games. The disparity between high-level Smash and, as examples, high-level Third Strike or KoFXIII, is just incredible.

It's still a party game at its core, and it's not designed to be competitive to begin with. That's just what the Smash community has made it into.

That said, there's lots of trash within the "fighting game" category as well. lolNRSfighters

as someone who used to play 3rd stike daily id say melee is just as complex if not more complex than 3rd strike. Mahvel on the other hand is in a league of its own.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Smash is such a unique game because it can be SO many different things:

-For some people, Smash is a crazy Nintendo party game in the vein of Mario Kart or Mario Party. Smash is incredibly fun, but is not to be taken seriously because it's obviously supposed to be played with crazy items on crazy stages with 4 players, and everything is cartoony and kid-friendly.

-For some people, Smash is a love letter to fans of Nintendo, and they love Smash for having all their favorite Nintendo characters along with nostalgic stages, music, collectables, etc. from countless Nintendo games. These people love Smash just as much as the competitive community, but for completely different reasons (of course, many people love Smash as both Nintendo fans and as competitive players).

-For some people, Smash is a legitimate and hardcore fighting game with immense depth and a literally limitless skill ceiling. The gameplay of Smash is the most important thing, rather than the aesthetics or the novelty. These people prefer a competitive game to a party game and have optimized the rules of the game for this purpose (items off, banning unbalanced stages, 4 stocks, etc.)

Unfortunately, people often hate on others who like Smash for different reasons than their own. Whether they be casual or competitive players, people on both sides are often antagonistic towards those who play the game differently than they do.

A lot of casual players hate tier lists, "advanced techniques" that they perceive as glitches that are akin to cheating and shouldn't be used, a perception of elitism in the competitive community, and occasionally some misconceptions about competitive Smash in general.

A lot of competitive (Melee) players still hate on Brawl, the game that the majority of casual players prefer, and many of the loudest voices are very elitist and inconsiderate, which only widens the rift between the casual Smash community and the competitive Smash community.

It's really stupid that competitive Smash gets so much hate. There's so much hate within our own community that only serves to polarize and intensify people's opinions on the game.

EDIT: About Smash being infinitely less complex than other fighters, I respectfully disagree. Some other fighting games are more complex in some areas, but Smash has different types of complexity.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

as someone who used to play 3rd stike daily id say melee is just as complex if not more complex than 3rd strike. Mahvel on the other hand is in a league of its own.

Don't compare Third Strike to Melee. Pls. It's just a complete no-no.

Thinking Marvel is beyond that removed the last bit of validity from your post.

I respectfully disagree.

That's nice, but the execution, understanding of the game mechanics, and reading necessary to play at a high level in SF are beyond anything in Smash. It's not so much a matter of what you disagree with as what the reality is.

I'm saying it skews perception. It's a bias.
People hear the loud ones and assume that 'all' the players are like that.

They hear their own choir, and so does the Smash community. I agree completely with the concept of bias, and as I stated, people prefer one over the other and often make the mistake of objectifying what's really their personal preference. But in terms of what's actually more competitive, which is what I assume the TC was aiming for, traditional fighting games are far beyond anything in Smash. Comparing games that were bred to be technical, unforgiving, and mentally demanding to a children's party game that people found glitches in to make it somewhat faster is absurd. I personally like both, but I can understand why the FGC thinks Smash shouldn't be viewed in a competitive light.

 

[CORY]

Comparing games that were bred to be technical, unforgiving, and mentally demanding to a children's party game that people found glitches in to make it somewhat faster is absurd.

you're the reason the tfg community has its perception. (by you, i mean people with your mentality). do you read what you type?

I agree completely with the concept of bias, and as I stated, people prefer one over the other and often make the mistake of objectifying what's really their personal preference.

you speak as though smash has no redeeming qualities, we're all scrublords and just need to get over this game, it's no good. then you talk about bias. then you talk about liking both games, but you don't really seem to.

what makes smash infinitely less complex? the freedom of movement? the inputs you need to be precise about? and on certain characters, the apm you need with that precision? the fact that combos can't be input identically, due to di, jumping out, teching, etc...?

is it because it's different and you're just here trying to wax philosphical that it's just not as good as street fighter? because your bias is really clearly showing, seeing as how you've insulted everything that isn't sf or kof franchise.

 

[thatoneguy1]

@ FoxBlaze71 i never compared them, i just stated that melee is more complex than 3rd strike, i ment this in terms of mechanics and execution of combos. I understand they are two different games completely but all fighting games have mechanics and some are more complex than others.

edit:guess that was a comparison lol

 

[Paradoxium]

The reality is that real fighters (and I'm not including the usual Marvel, BB, other casual fighters here, because that would be like citing Brawl against Smash) are a lot deeper than anything yet to appear in Smash. The skill gap between them is massive.

I understand why people prefer Smash (more freedom in movement, variety in stages, etc.) but it's best the two stay seperate. Smashers that cry to the FGC for acceptance are only making the rest of us look dumber. They're both unique categories with their own positives and negatives.

Melee is just as deep as all the other fighters, fighting games aren't that hard tbh.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

you're the reason the tfg community has its perception. (by you, i mean people with your mentality). do you read what you type?

you speak as though smash has no redeeming qualities, we're all scrublords and just need to get over this game, it's no good. then you talk about bias. then you talk about liking both games, but you don't really seem to.

what makes smash infinitely less complex? the freedom of movement? the inputs you need to be precise about? and on certain characters, the apm you need with that precision? the fact that combos can't be input identically, due to di, jumping out, teching, etc...?

is it because it's different and you're just here trying to wax philosphical that it's just not as good as street fighter? because your bias is really clearly showing, seeing as how you've insulted everything that isn't sf or kof franchise.

Damn, you're salty. Read a little more closely. I like both, but in the competitive department traditional fighters are much stronger.

As for your other points, the technicality comes from deeper mechanics that simply allow more within the game. Things like option selects in SF, as one example, completely evolve what gameplay means and how your character can function. The execution barrier is also much higher, and your understanding of the game needs to be much more profound in order to play at a high level. Smash is more or less scoring a hit and then using limited options to chase people around in ground tech or airborne states.

Sorry, I'm actually worse at SF than Smash, but I can at least appreciate the differences in each and realize that one of the two categories actually aims to be competitive, and the other has to be forced into that by the community that plays it. To reiterate: I enjoy both, but I don't see Smash in the same light and neither does its creator, apparently.

I welcome your response, but first take a benzo and get the bunches out of those panties, because the angry nerd you tried to portray in your post is becoming less accurate of me and more of you.

@ Paradoxium : I agree that people can often stretch things in regard to traditional fighter difficulty (I.E., some of the tighter links you have to hit not actually being that crazy) but that's not the entire scope of the games. The mechanics themselves are often what make them - see the various cancels and guard options in KOF for that.

 

[CORY]

salty because your mentality is the exact mentality that is present in the elitists that we've had to put up with for over a decade. you say that smash is "infinitely less complex" then walk away, like that means something. and that's all you say for three posts, like it means something. you overall present yourself as a snob who thinks the only game that's worthwhile is sf/kof. apparently even arcsys games are just for the filthy casuals to mash buttons on.

then you come back and apparently all smash is, is just "score a random hit, chase them around". well, in the flipside, all sf is, is "score a random hit, input prebuilt combo"?

both of these statements ignore the entire "pre-hit" game, which is important in both (sf would have the footises that either bore or intensely interest people; [nonbrawl]smash has the dash dance positioning. both involve movement and throwing out attacks for baiting or punishing improper spacing). the fact that you have to get a read on opponents after you land a hit to finish and continue many combos means that you have to be on the ball in that regard, as well as have the ability to cover multiple options at once as often as possible (which is what an option select is, at its essence, correct? covering two or more options your opponent has in a situation, as safely as possible.)

and intent doesn't matter. what sakurai intended to make has no bearing on what the game now is. it doesn't matter if it was intended to be a party game to lolz around with; there is a powerful engine underneath it, that actually has a lot of fine workings (there's a window for failing techs, for failing lcancels(? confirm?), for failing meteors; there's 6 options to wake up off the ground, considering a [tech]roll in either direction as the same option; you use the same button to l cancel as you do for teching, allowing for tech fails to occur from a badly placed attack; not the best or most cohesive examples, but those are things that shouldn't matter to just goofy party gaming, but are in there).

but, yeah, you're just some elitist who thinks it's a party game because sakurai or something. let's ignore everything about what the game is. sorry guys, pack up shop, sakurai says this ain't competitive, tfg says it's a joke, we ain't esports in here, this guy's got no real points so he's gotta talk about nerd rage and bunched panties; let's go on home.

 

[Raijinken]

Same reason there's a lot of hate for casual play within the community. Different goals for how to play the game, and neither side remotely enjoys the middle ground, so the views are essentially mutually exclusive. And, as with many mutually exclusive views, while the majority really couldn't care either way, the vocal people are the ones bashing the side they don't take.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

salty because your mentality is the exact mentality that is present in the elitists that we've had to put up with for over a decade. you say that smash is "infinitely less complex" then walk away, like that means something. and that's all you say for three posts, like it means something. you overall present yourself as a snob who thinks the only game that's worthwhile is sf/kof. apparently even arcsys games are just for the filthy casuals to mash buttons on.

then you come back and apparently all smash is, is just "score a random hit, chase them around". well, in the flipside, all sf is, is "score a random hit, input prebuilt combo"?

both of these statements ignore the entire "pre-hit" game, which is important in both (sf would have the footises that either bore or intensely interest people; [nonbrawl]smash has the dash dance positioning. both involve movement and throwing out attacks for baiting or punishing improper spacing). the fact that you have to get a read on opponents after you land a hit to finish and continue many combos means that you have to be on the ball in that regard, as well as have the ability to cover multiple options at once as often as possible (which is what an option select is, at its essence, correct? covering two or more options your opponent has in a situation, as safely as possible.)

and intent doesn't matter. what sakurai intended to make has no bearing on what the game now is. it doesn't matter if it was intended to be a party game to lolz around with; there is a powerful engine underneath it, that actually has a lot of fine workings (there's a window for failing techs, for failing lcancels(? confirm?), for failing meteors; there's 6 options to wake up off the ground, considering a [tech]roll in either direction as the same option; you use the same button to l cancel as you do for teching, allowing for tech fails to occur from a badly placed attack; not the best or most cohesive examples, but those are things that shouldn't matter to just goofy party gaming, but are in there).

but, yeah, you're just some elitist who thinks it's a party game because sakurai or something. let's ignore everything about what the game is. sorry guys, pack up shop, sakurai says this ain't competitive, tfg says it's a joke, we ain't esports in here, this guy's got no real points so he's gotta talk about nerd rage and bunched panties; let's go on home.

Not quite. Though you seem to like the idea of me not backing up anything I say, there's also the constant FGC elitist crying from you that I've heard from your past several posts.

First, Street Fighter is not just random hits at all. Though you cite dash dance spacing as part of the pre-hit game, the reality is that dash dancing is just mashing in a couple directions to move around. In SF, you need to think about your footsies options and carefully space your move or eat a chunk of health, and then there's also the issue of hit confirming into those pre-determined combos you seem to hate so much (which actually are only determined by the frames between the attacks, not the developer saying "YOU MUST CANCEL LOW FORWARD INTO.....) and being able to do frame-perfect blockstrings so the rabid shoto masher trying to rip apart his stick doesn't break through with a random DP.

Though I can understand that the competitive community has uncovered a lot about the game, that doesn't mean that being able to press DB and airdodging somehow puts it on par with the extremes of a real fighting game. I enjoy Smash, but don't see eye to eye on how it's equivalent to games that were developed for the specific purpose of being a tournament masterpiece.

TLDR, for probably the third time now: I'm not hating on Smash, it's just very different from traditional fighting games and that's the reason there are biases. Both are designed for different markets and purposes, and both fulfill those, but it's time the Smash community stops groveling about not being "accepted". No one in the FGC (lol, "TFG" according to you) is wishing the SSB community would involve them more. The two are perfectly happy seperate, and that's why this debate is making people so pissy.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

dash dancing is just mashing in a couple directions to move around

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[CORY]

yep, stopped reading there. later, unsubscribing.

 

[Paradoxium]

I beat FoxBlaze71 multiple times over wifi...

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Really? Someone please enlighten me on how complicated the two-directional movement of dash-dancing is, and just how revolutionary it is to its entire genre. Until then, stay dense.

@ Paradoxium : I don't recall having played you at all. Unless you're the long lost alt of someone I've played before I went on hiatus, you'll need some replays to substantiate that. Either way, that's kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Narpas_sword]

about as complicated as the 2 direction input to space your moves in any fighting game....

 

[FoxBlaze71]

about as complicated as the 2 direction input to space your moves in any fighting game....

Only problem there is that it's generally not just two inputs. Like I said, hit confirms, and the block strings they may lead into, are generally not as simple as just following a pre-determined pattern. True, you do lock yourself into certain gradually narrowing options the further you get into the combos/run out of meter, but generally you're not just running back and forth like an autistic child.

 

[Paradoxium]

about as complicated as the 2 direction input to space your moves in any fighting game....

It's called moving left and moving right, this advanced technique is so much deeper and more complex in traditional fighters. There is such a huge skill gap between moving left and right in traditional fighters compared to smash.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Only problem there is that it's generally not just two inputs. Like I said, hit confirms, and the block strings they may lead into, are generally not as simple as just following a pre-determined pattern. True, you do lock yourself into certain gradually narrowing options the further you get into the combos/run out of meter, but generally you're not just running back and forth like an autistic child.

See what youre doing here?

Youre explaining movement of left and right in one scenario with detail and where it leads, then describing the other, ignoring details and situations.

Terrible

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Your right, probably a little too drunk to posting right now. Response pending.

 

[Lil Puddin]

SSB is not complicated technique wise, but it offers things many 2D or 3D fighting games DO NOT offer.

Zoning. Many fighters in typical fighting games rely on combos and perfect blocking followed by counters. But SSB has projectiles with different properties or hazards.

Spacing. Most fighters have it where approaching is easy and running away is hard. That usually means fights are always aggressive and quick. SSB makes moving on the Y axis very easy, and running away doesn't require you to shuffle backwards.

Blast zones. Oh no Ryu, you have hit the edge of the screen! No worries, you can fight back! Oh no ROB, you have hit the edge of the screen! Rest in pieces, nerd.

Odd techs or movement patterns. All jumps are different. Techs are different. Playstyles are different. Character stats are different and thorough. This is an extremely diverse game.

Simple but time sensitive button combos. At the most you would push two buttons and perhaps move the analog stick per action or just wiggle the analog stick. This makes the game easier to pick up and play. Unlike most fighters which can get quite complex just to play one character.


ESSENTIALLY all of those attributes make SSB a fighter that is very different and includes new intense things to worry about in lieu of complex controls. EX being mind games, reflexes, stage maneuvering, grabs, DI, different uses for blocking, stage control, edge guarding and aerial hijinks. Hence why we have a bustling casual crowd, a hefty competitive crowd, and then a lot of things in between. SSB is in a league of it's own and requires more wits than your standard fighter. It also doesn't alienate people who want to play casually/fight without getting too technical.

Still, that in no way makes it overall less complicated or intense. Unless you choose to ignore the entire competitive side and various mechanics of the game.

 

[Paradoxium]

SSB is not complicated technique wise, but it offers things many 2D or 3D fighting games DO NOT offer.

Zoning. Many fighters in typical fighting games rely on combos and perfect blocking followed by counters. But SSB has projectiles with different properties or hazards.

Spacing. Most fighters have it where approaching is easy and running away is hard. That usually means fights are always aggressive and quick. SSB makes moving on the Y axis very easy, and running away doesn't require you to shuffle backwards.

Blast zones. Oh no Ryu, you have hit the edge of the screen! No worries, you can fight back! Oh no ROB, you have hit the edge of the screen! Rest in pieces, nerd.

Odd techs or movement patterns. All jumps are different. Techs are different. Playstyles are different. Character stats are different and thorough. This is an extremely diverse game.

Simple but time sensitive button combos. At the most you would push two buttons and perhaps move the analog stick per action or just wiggle the analog stick. This makes the game easier to pick up and play. Unlike most fighters which can get quite complex just to play one character.


ESSENTIALLY all of those attributes make SSB a fighter that is very different and includes new intense things to worry about in lieu of complex controls. EX being mind games, reflexes, stage maneuvering, grabs, DI, different uses for blocking, stage control, edge guarding and aerial hijinks. Hence why we have a bustling casual crowd, a hefty competitive crowd, and then a lot of things in between. SSB is in a league of it's own and requires more wits than your standard fighter. It also doesn't alienate people who want to play casually/fight without getting too technical.

Still, that in no way makes it overall less complicated or intense. Unless you choose to ignore the entire competitive side and various mechanics of the game.

You obviously have never played a traditional fighter competitively. Zoning and Spacing are both in fighter games, and they play the same roll they do in smash. Although traditional fighters don't have blast zones, they have the corner. And the corner creates very interesting play. Characters are different in traditional fighters, I have no idea why you would think it only applies to smash.

Now the combo system is very different between traditional fighters and smash, I prefer smash's combo system (Hence why I play smash more).

 

[thatoneguy1]

SSB is not complicated technique wise, but it offers things many 2D or 3D fighting games DO NOT offer.

Zoning. Many fighters in typical fighting games rely on combos and perfect blocking followed by counters. But SSB has projectiles with different properties or hazards.

capcom fighters have plenty of zoning options from multiple characters, just look at daigo playing sf and zoning with hadoukens.

 

[CORY]

yeah. you have zoning, defensive, aggro, all that in both genres, they just get represented differently sometimes.

and the corner in 2d fighters is (almost always) a very scary place to be ;x the closest analogue would be you're offstage at higher percents. yeah, you can still get back on stage, but you should be fighting uphill from there.

 

[keninblack]

Its mostly just ****** casuals and con goers that negatively talk about Smash players.

Can't even tell you how many times i've gone to MAGfest with SOMEONE having to pull the "FOX ONLY NO ITEMS FD" joke that was never funny but people still exclaim it like its a fresh,new, and funny joke no one has heard before.

Being apart of the FGC since 07-08, I can say that most SF/MVC players, at least from my experience never really badmouthed Smash. We would badmouth Brawl at times, but respect the footsies involved, and of course some people would exclaim "PARTY GAME!" and whatnot but it was a huge amount of people. Most FGC people respect the **** out of Melee.

So yeah, I guess the reason casual people badmouth Smash is because we add "limitations" and "rules" to what is considered a "fun party game". A lot of them don't understand why items, and certain stages should be banned as they're "apart of the game"

Those same people though think that ST Akuma and 3s Gill are fair, so I wouldn't trust those folks.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

because of ignorance

lots of ignorance

 

[thatoneguy1]

there are people who seriously think gill is acceptable to use in a tourney?

 

[CORY]

there are people who think melee kirby or pichu are just as viable as melee fox. tirez don exits doesn't distinguish between games (or the directionality of the tiers).

 

[thatoneguy1]

there are people who think melee kirby or pichu are just as viable as melee fox. tirez don exits doesn't distinguish between games (or the directionality of the tiers).

these people have probably never played competitively ever though.