Why do we condone secret-keeping about combos and frame data?

[Redline!]

It seems to me that there are many players in the Smash 4 community who consider it fair and reasonable to withhold, obscure, or otherwise deny the wider playerbase access to matchup and character information that should be public knowledge.


Most infamous is the % window information for Meta Knight's combo options being kept actively secret in order to allow top Meta Knight players to continue with current strategies.

The fact is that you guys do not know these %'s (and neither do 99% of the Meta Knights), and we as Meta Knight players feed on this. If this were common or public knowledge then the match up dynamic would change and the Meta Knight player would have to adapt to using a more expansive playstyle, which is exactly what happens against say, Sheik, who has a very marginal window of opportunity to seal the stock. This is also why you will watch Abadongo play matches where he will eat 90% until he lands a dash attack to take a stock when he could have been playing from further ahead by just not being greedy and going for the instant kill.

That this attitude is not immediately and universally decried as the grotesquely poor sportsmanship it so clearly is baffles me. Games should be decided on skill and effort, not on the keeping of secret knowledge.

Some will say to this "you should go to the lab, no one HAS to tell you anything". And it's true that no one HAS to share information. But I would argue that the deliberate withholding of information is malicious and damages the metagame. It's not the right thing to do. Isaac Newton didn't keep his discoveries about gravitational mechanics a secret so that only he could benefit. He published his work for the benefit of the world.

So this is me calling these certain members of the Smash 4 community out. Everything that anyone knows should be made public. Anyone who continues to withold in-game information, framedata, combo escapability, etc. in order to maintain an advantage is putting their own petty successes ahead of the rest of the community. Shame on you, Ulevo. Shame on you, Abadongo. Shame on everyone who keeps these secrets.

 

[Xermo]

Sure, one could consider it scummy to withhold knowledge of their character, but it's their main. They're the ones putting in the time learning the ins and outs of a character and how to kill with them. Not to mention they're playing the game for money 90% of the time. Sharing their setups and weaknesses is only costing them, until that information becomes public on it's own.
The metagame develops when people learn to outplay tactics and new ones are formed, not when it's given to you that "X setup will kill at X percent so you should play like Y always" off the bat. That only leads to people going for the best counter character or option from the start.

It's one thing if it was a universal mechanic that was withheld and utilized by a small faction of the playerbase to guarantee placings, but character knowledge falls on individuals to learn to outplay.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

As a fan of the competitive game, I agree. I'd be more than willing to share each and every advantage and Achilles heel of my character as long as it advances the meta game to it's logical conclusion...but I'm not actively involved in the meta game and only play for fun and fandom.

Someone who is involved in the tournament scene has good reason to hide information. When you're involved in high level play, you can pretty much count on fingers and toes the number of other people on your skill level at the game or with certain characters. When you discover a tech or learn combo percentages, that's 'your thing' and gives you an advantage when playing for money and respect.

Certainly there shouldn't be an information blackout, deleting all relevant information and shadowbanning the posters. There is nothing immoral about not telling someone your secret technology, it's up to the fans of the game to bring light to certain interactions that the pros would rather keep to themselves.

 

[Redline!]

Sure, one could consider it scummy to withhold knowledge of their character, but it's their main. They're the ones putting in the time learning the ins and outs of a character and how to kill with them. Not to mention they're playing the game for money 90% of the time. Sharing their setups and weaknesses is only costing them, until that information becomes public on it's own.
The metagame develops when people learn to outplay tactics and new ones are formed, not when it's given to you that "X setup will kill at X percent so you should play like Y always" off the bat. That only leads to people going for the best counter character or option from the start.

It's one thing if it was a universal mechanic that was withheld and utilized by a small faction of the playerbase to guarantee placings, but character knowledge falls on individuals to learn to outplay.

I just don't feel like it's good-faith behavior. I share everything I know, that's for certain. For instance: Roy's jab has a sweet spot that true-combo kill-confirms most characters at around 115% using his Up Special. There. That's new knowledge for some of you. Use it against me. Keep out of my jab range until the combo stops working around 125%.

 

[momochuu]

if people knew how many unlisted greninja tech videos i have on my channel...

anyway, i don't think there's anything wrong with it. if people really want to know the MK combo percents that badly they can just go in training mode and do it. its that hard to figure them out. even if they do withold the info, what are you going to do to stop them? you can't force the information out of them if they don't want to share it.

 

[Redline!]

if people knew how many unlisted greninja tech videos i have on my channel...

anyway, i don't think there's anything wrong with it. if people really want to know the MK combo percents that badly they can just go in training mode and do it. its that hard to figure them out. even if they do withold the info, what are you going to do to stop them? you can't force the information out of them if they don't want to share it.

To discover the Meta Knight combo %s "in the lab" requires two willing, devoted people in the same room (to prevent netlag). One to use MK and one to be the "dummy". One of the players has to be good enough with MK to execute the combos consistently and the other has to have enough Smash experience to understand DI mechanics and what is being tested. And it takes a long-ass time to go through all the permutations of weight, inputs, DI decisions, etc.

The task you describe should not be "on" every single player who wants to know how to deal with MK's shenanigans. It's an unreasonable demand of time and of resources that not everyone even has access to.

And of course you can't "force the information" out of players who put their personal gain above the community-at-large. But you can ask. You can set an example. You can help change the community culture into an open one.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To reframe the argument a bit: By withholding information about your own character, especially information as basic as what range of % a kill confirm works at, you are indirectly stalling the advancement of the game.

To illustrate with an example, I and other Rosalina mains make no secret of the fact that Luma has 50 HP or so, can be swatted away by any decently strong hit, and that if you get it in a tumble animation offstage then it's guaranteed to die. Telling this to everyone hurts Rosalina players in the short term for obvious reasons, but at the same time it forces us to adapt and figure out two very important things:

1. How to keep Luma safe against someone who knows how to kill it.
2. How to fight without Luma when we fail to keep it safe.

And thus in the long term, Rosalina players grow and improve.

This seems so obvious and fundamental to me that I honestly cannot fathom why anyone would deliberately try to bury something like how to deal with a known kill setup, other than the players being afraid that such a lack of knowledge is the only thing they have left to go on; i.e. if people figure out how to survive or when they're safe from Meta Knight's uair chain to Shuttle Loop combo then pack it up, Meta Knight's done for as a competitive character. I don't honestly believe that Meta Knight is so shallow as to be done in by such a thing becoming known, so I'm honestly struggling to find a motive that doesn't assume bad faith.

I mean, FFS people, Smash is a game. It's not real world politics where information security is an actual concern. We can afford to share secrets and knowledge with each other because it helps everyone. It helps us because we learn how to fight against your character. It then helps you because you have higher quality opponents to fight and grow with.

 

[Redline!]

To reframe the argument a bit: By withholding information about your own character, especially information as basic as what range of % a kill confirm works at, you are indirectly stalling the advancement of the game.

To illustrate with an example, I and other Rosalina mains make no secret of the fact that Luma has 50 HP or so, can be swatted away by any decently strong hit, and that if you get it in a tumble animation offstage then it's guaranteed to die. Telling this to everyone hurts Rosalina players in the short term for obvious reasons, but at the same time it forces us to adapt and figure out two very important things:

1. How to keep Luma safe against someone who knows how to kill it.
2. How to fight without Luma when we fail to keep it safe.

And thus in the long term, Rosalina players grow and improve.

This seems so obvious and fundamental to me that I honestly cannot fathom why anyone would deliberately try to bury something like how to deal with a known kill setup, other than the players being afraid that such a lack of knowledge is the only thing they have left to go on; i.e. if people figure out how to survive or when they're safe from Meta Knight's uair chain to Shuttle Loop combo then pack it up, Meta Knight's done for as a competitive character. I don't honestly believe that Meta Knight is so shallow as to be done in by such a thing becoming known, so I'm honestly struggling to find a motive that doesn't assume bad faith.

I mean, FFS people, Smash is a game. It's not real world politics where information security is an actual concern. We can afford to share secrets and knowledge with each other because it helps everyone. It helps us because we learn how to fight against your character. It then helps you because you have higher quality opponents to fight and grow with.

Precisely. I actually didn't know that Luma always dies if in tumble offstage. That's good info.

Withholding information is self-serving and short-sighted.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ah, reminds me of how we would withhold information about DI, dash dances, L-cancelling, Jump cancelling, etc. in the good old days to win locals...

It's an icky topic. I'm a Smash researcher, and I try to be as forthright and inclusive with my data as I can. But you'll never see my data if you don't know where to look. That's where the average player can contribute to making thread directories and other resources to keep the information out there. Using the Metaknight combo % example, having that information publicly available would far better help fellow metaknights then it ever would opposing players who would find the same information. Meta Knight is just one of their 56 possible Matchups that they need to learn and practice, and MK definitely isn't what I'd call common. Not as much as actual top tiers, Mario, Captain Falcon, etc. So yes, withholding that data is definitely not a good thing altruistically, but people are free to take whatever edge they want in terms of winning. It's a free country, err game. I would think less of the person, true, but I wouldn't demand they share it. I would instead claim that they have no such knowledge, otherwise they'd put it right in front of me to prove me wrong. There's always room to make them cave because, they're people.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Precisely. I actually didn't know that Luma always dies if in tumble offstage. That's good info.

Withholding information is self-serving and short-sighted.

Yep. If Luma is doing that thing where it's spinning madly in midair, it's helpless and can't do anything until it lands, and Rosalina can't recall it with her neutral special either. If it ends up like this offstage, it's done for. (Low-knockback moves like Falco's laser can interrupt it and indirectly save it but that's player error.) Also, because Luma can't shield or dodge, there are some attacks that are uniquely bad for Rosalina to deal with because they'll still hit Luma even if Rosalina performs the correct defensive option. Anything that "activates" on contact with a hurtbox, like PK Fire, fits into this category, but there are others as well.

Weirdly, Luma is immune to the lava you can create in the custom stage editor.

But this is getting a wee bit off topic so I'll stop for now.

More on topic, spreading of knowledge is precisely why I did my stage research series, so the mere idea of withholding information is weird to me.

 

[Ulevo]

Apparently I am being called out, so I might as well clarify some things.

The majority of the Meta Knight community witholds information for a variety of reasons. The first is that they fear that if the meta game for Meta Knight advances too quickly during the time when patches are still taking place, the character will inevitably be nerfed, regardless if it is premature or warranted. The second is that they want to avoid being given flack for using the character when they are able to utilize his optimal punish game. The third is that some players opt to withold this information to gain an advantage over their opponents.

I want to make it clear that I do not condone any of this for a variety of the reasons shared in the opening post. It is foolish to believe that a character is going to receive balance changes from optimizing the meta for that character when we already had and have had high level players like Ito and Abadango displaying what the player can do for months now. Particularly when one of those players is in Japan, and actually gets strong regional results. The idea that the balance team is ignorant to this and it is sneaking under the radar by keeping it quiet on social media, Skype and Smashboards is incredibly naive. I cannot read Japanese but for all I know this is public information on prominent Japanese boards and reddit. And if you cannot handle the stigma that comes along with maining a character, then you need to switch mains.

I also feel it is a waste of time to practice and train yourself with the idea in mind that your opponent does not have all the facts and details. Eventually, sooner or later, the meta game for Meta Knight and any other character will reach its maturity, and the players that opt to practice optimally based on proper play and not gimmicks or incomplete data will be standing on top. All of my current training partners know how my character works, how to get out of my combos, not to fall for tricks, and how not to die to confirms because I share this information with them. Anyone not familiar with the character usually gets wrecked by me, but my local community does not, and this is the future of the character.

If it makes you feel any better, the majority of the information the Meta Knight players are "witholding" from you is wrong, incorrect, or halphazardly optimized, so you are not missing out on anything. Only players like Abadango really know what the hell is going on because most of the time you see it in his play. He lands proper confirms rather than just guessing or failing because he labbed wrong (most of the time). Even popularized videos like the ones by My Smash Corner have given a lot of bad information.

I have my own reasons for (temporarily) witholding my information that are not congruent with the reasons I mentioned already.

I want to point out one last thing though. While there are very cherished members of the community here, like @TheReflexWonder who continually give to the community, you need to realize that a lot of this is a lot of hard work, and sometimes the reward for being publicly giving does not outweigh the time and effort put into the content provided. I have spent hundreds of hours in a lab with my character, none of which has been or likely will be compensated for up to this point. Many top players do this as well. Whether or not it is right or wrong, there is a reason you do not see players like Zero or Nairo on the boards here, publicly handing out the fruits of their labor they earned, even though everyone would benefit from their insight. While I agree information should be shared, acting entitled is not the way to go about it.

That's my answer to this topic.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If I may echo one good point:

I want to point out one last thing though. While there are very cherished members of the community here, like @TheReflexWonder who continually give to the community, you need to realize that a lot of this is a lot of hard work, and sometimes the reward for being publicly giving does not outweigh the time and effort put into the content provided. I have spent hundreds of hours in a lab with my character, none of which has been or likely will be compensated for up to this point. Many top players do this as well. Whether or not it is right or wrong, there is a reason you do not see players like Zero or Nairo on the boards here, publicly handing out the fruits of their labor they earned, even though everyone would benefit from their insight. While I agree information should be shared, acting entitled is not the way to go about it.

Allow me to provide an example from just a few days ago. I wanted to update my data values for a thread on jab locking. Previously, the damage ranges were when locking Meta Knight, but I wanted ranges for more than that to illustrate how much weight makes a difference. So I redid the tests with three characters, Jigglypuff, Mario, and Bowser. I couldn't tell you how long this took me, but I know it was at least a week of giving up the vast majority of my spare time from work and school (most people in this community, just based on our average age ranges, attend work, school, or both on a regular basis). For the sake of argument, let's say this took me a dozen altogether hours just to find the new values. Remember, I wasn't looking for moves that work, the list already existed, I was just repeating tests I've already done in the past.

Okay, now I need to edit my thread. This took me six hours. Six, incredibly boring hours all done on a single, rare day off from work and class. It sucked, but I just really wanted to have a better representation of the data for people to use. I'm not looking for appreciation either. Though according to Smashboards, 21 users seem to "like this", and the thread has over 4000 views from its 8 month lifespan. 100 of those are probably me with all the small revisions and corrections I've made in the last 8 months.

So why go to all the trouble? Because I know how fun it is to compete back when I was in high school, making hour long drives to the "Super Arcade", hauling around CRT tvs in the back of my truck, carpooling friends. That was the highlight of my life back then. And while my current life style and responsibility makes attending events very difficult, I still have plenty of time for doing the massive lab work for other people that do compete. That do want to advance their meta games. The idea of making Smash 4 more interesting and competitive while people are still playing sounds like its own reward. I don't have my own self-interest for getting ahead in tournaments. Heck, I don't think I even have a sense of character loyalty. Ask me all the dirty secrets about fighting Bowser, and I'd tell you in long essays.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I withhold information from people who annoy me. If someone bothers me and they think Bowser uthrow to uair doesn't work on their character at certain KO percents, I'll let them think that until the next time they play a Bowser in tournament.

I do enough for the community so I'm allowed to do this :^)

Edit: Maybe I will go do MK kill confirm percents now. I have some days off work.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I withhold information from people who annoy me.

The obvious followup question is "what does it take to annoy you?"

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The obvious followup question is "what does it take to annoy you?"

Asking him to increase the difficulty rating of Olimar or Samus. Because, you know, that's the most important aspect of their frame data. You seem them near to 0 now, but I hear tell they were something normal before mobs of these players demanded he raise the difficulty rating so that their ego be properly sated.

Be mindful, this man has "human" levels of snark and is not to be tempted.

 

[LancerStaff]

The way I see it they're hurting themselves in the long run... Take a player who spams one move repeatedly and also knows exactly how to handle it. He just refuses to tell anybody so he has an advantage. So then once this becomes common knowledge (because everything eventually becomes common knowledge) the game he was playing no longer exists, and since it's effectively a binary solution anybody going up against him can easily adapt. He's much worse off because of it.

 

[Jamurai]

Uair combo %s are a lot more complicated than people think. The line between the combo killing and not killing is very fine anyway, and especially when taking into account:

• Staling of Uair and/or its setup moves
• Multiple setup moves each with their own % window (dash attack, D/Fthrow, Utilt, SH Uair)
• Rage...
• FF Bair into Dtilt lock which can tailor the enemy's % for them to die from the followup
• Stage ceilings

There isn't one min and one max % that your character will die at, it completely depends on the situation of the game and the way it is set up. What was public before was essentially a guide of when fresh dash attack confirms to death with fresh Uair and fresh Shuttle Loop on FD. In a real game this is not such a likely scenario so it's not quite as useful as it seems, it was basically a rough guide, a general comparison of characters. If you still want this information for your character you can literally lab it yourself and it should take about an hour tops, the combo is easy to do on a dummy.

If you wanted to master Uair combos, like Abadango is getting towards, you need to put in **** tonnes of work in the lab and I would think only a few dedicated mains have put in enough work and have everything laid out for any given scenario, namely Aba, Leo, Ito and a few others. The vast majority of us do not have this information. Btw, saying Aba should be ashamed for not sharing his combo data with the world is ludicrous. As much as we would like it to be so, the competitive world isn't all sunshine and rainbows where everyone shares the latest strats they have formulated to advance the general metagame as quickly as possible. There is a lot of money and glory on the line and he is very much entitled to keep his hard-earned findings to himself.

Top players don't complain about information not being public, they simply lab something out if they don't know it because they aren't lazy. I think this has been blown way out of proportion. It's not like the information we are "holding back" from the public is difficult to obtain. It's also only a fraction of what you need to understand how and when u gon die from the best punisher in the game.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Well.
I should probably publicize my info.

Specifically, my ness stuff. It was all my response to everyone saying "Ness is maxed out, I can't see him going further"
Ahahahaha. That's not true at all, even without my "info."

 

[FallenHero]

Maybe we gotta start sending in spies like America and the Soviet Union did back in the Cold War to find out their secrets lol.

I would be the type to keep certain things a secret until people see me do it for the first time in a tournament or on a stream and then reveal it. Could be like an anime moment when the victim and spectators could be like "what the hell was that technique!?"

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Yes. Smash is totally anime. Let's keep them secrets. shhhhhh
A top 3 (at least) ranked player in my area plays Lucas and they use a Footstool combo to KO. @ALLCAPS911 Here's the Data:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16MmKBS7NbyXk_KH-vRDM3xVgwum3kYr52qcXFSV05Bg/edit?usp=sharing
I BELIEVE that is the Combo. Idek, i'm not a Lucas main.

I also have info for combo's into Sheik Dair spike that don't result in suicide. People need to do them more.
Truth be told I have alot of secondaries...

 

[Redline!]

That's my answer to this topic.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your measured response to what, on reflection, was a pretty hostile tone I took.

In general, I can understand the concept of short-term secret keeping. Like the "anime trump card" mentioned above, it can increase excitement. But when someone asks "how did you do that", "I'm not telling you because then it won't work" is, I still think, a shortsighted and unsportsmanlike response.

In any case, I'm glad this thread has generated so much discussion already and in particular that there's been information made public already as a result. Maybe a non-character-specific "dirty tricks megathread" might be valuable as a place for willing individuals to share funny/weird/unexpected combos and strategies.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I personally think it is silly to hide metagame secrets, reminds me those old times when arcade players put a jacket over their stick before performing a Fatality.
However, it is understandable that someone who put a lot effort into a character would not want to share their dinosaur blood to someone that will make a Dinosaur Island without any credit. Again, I think it's kind of dumb, but researchers are entitled.


For things like MK's combo where literally anyone with a Wii U and a bit of spare time can lab it out and have their own cheat sheet, hiding information is not a problem. Heck, even if you hide it, it might eventually leak and be available for anyone and then it will probably not even make a big difference anyway.

But, there are other techniques like Dabuz's Luma walk that MIGHT significantly change the metagame if he were to share it, it is not something that can be easily found out, possibly even counter-intuitive. Keeping it secret might only harm other players of the character. I mean, you may not lose anything, maybe even gain a lot from that, but the potential overall gain is wasted.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Yep. If Luma is doing that thing where it's spinning madly in midair, it's helpless and can't do anything until it lands, and Rosalina can't recall it with her neutral special either. If it ends up like this offstage, it's done for. (Low-knockback moves like Falco's laser can interrupt it and indirectly save it but that's player error.) Also, because Luma can't shield or dodge, there are some attacks that are uniquely bad for Rosalina to deal with because they'll still hit Luma even if Rosalina performs the correct defensive option. Anything that "activates" on contact with a hurtbox, like PK Fire, fits into this category, but there are others as well.

Weirdly, Luma is immune to the lava you can create in the custom stage editor.

But this is getting a wee bit off topic so I'll stop for now.

More on topic, spreading of knowledge is precisely why I did my stage research series, so the mere idea of withholding information is weird to me.

I actually found out that Luma is sort of vulnerable against Falco's fair and he isn't protected by Ros' shield. I learned that Falco's fair can be pretty disrupting to Luma and Ros in general so I trained myself to space it and to know when to use it effectively.
Sometimes all it takes is interest in learning the match-up and a little time to study. Even if you don't know anything, (I sure didn't) and you don't have anyone who knows anything you can always just lab it out. If the people themselves won't tell we'll figure out eventually after getting bodied a couple times.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

It's a weird topic in general. One thing to remember though, that no one really seems to be mentioning, is how a good player doesn't need secret strategies to win. Knowing exactly what percentage X move will kill Y character with optimal DI at when you have Z amount of rage is great and all, but it hardly makes you a better player. If we compare this to melee, it would be the equivalent to you having the best tech skill of anyone in the world, but no fundamentals to back it up. Getting caught up in the information will help you out a bit, but in the long run you could know every trick in the book before anyone else and still be a bad player. Everyone is so absorbed by the secrets and such that they forget that fundamentals are what they need. What good is a 100% string if you can't read airdodges? What good is that set-up if you can't react to DI? Great fundamentals will ALWAYS trump over everything else.

With that said, we are a community. We're here to help each other. If you do figure out a neat little trick, awesome, good on you! Keep it to yourself for a while and blow some minds. But it's on you to know when to share it with the world. Don't be that guy who never tells anyone. Because sooner or later someone else will figure it out (from studying gameplay or on their own) and share it with the world. At that point, you aren't so special anymore, and you won't have the satisfaction of helping the community. You never know, you might just have a tech or move named after you if you're the one to show it off. Hiding that info won't help you as much as you think anyways, even if no one understands how it works, they will adapt to it and figure out how to avoid it. Also, to people saying that they are putting in so much time into finding these things out that telling the world won't be worth it...that's just selfish. That's really all it is. This game is supposed to be fun. If it's a job to you, you're not playing this game for the right reasons. People like this are the reason Sakurai caters to the casuals rather than the competitive players.

At the end of the day though, rest easy knowing that these hidden pieces of knowledge and hidden tricks will only get people so far. There's no trick that's going to reliably work high level players, and there's no piece of knowledge that will beat someone with great fundamentals.

 

[HoSmash4]

If you really wanna know this stuff, find it out yourself. People arent obliged to give out information just because it'll help others sadly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well, MK research is going well. Hopefully I'll be able to post something shortly.

 

[MordhauDerk]

TLDR: Secrets are good, but so is sharing. Both have pros and cons.

What kind of context are we talking about here? When should you share information? Right after a set or just in general?
When I'm playing friendlies I have no problem telling my opponent(s) what I know.
I think in this day and age a lot of the information is already on SmashBoards so, labbing in general is not as important as it used to be, for beginners. Because there is so much already done for you.
When it comes to top level players not sharing info, I can see why. Saving a technique for a big event could give them more of an edge. And potentially make them a lot of money.
I think it really depends on a players priorities and end-goal. We can't expect a player/opponent to give us anything. What we should be doing is studying the strategy that we don't understand and figuring out how it works.
I don't see it as poor sportsmanship to not give out secrets, I see it as a good strategy. While giving our tips is more like charity. It's not something you should be expected to do, but it is nice when it is done.
Ok, I'm done rambling.

 

[Amadeus9]

this thread made me laugh, thanks for that

as for information that the SB mk community is actively withholding, (if you can call it that, if you join the MK skype group we'll tell you what we know willingly 80% of the time) quite a lot of it is just junk we're experimenting with, with metagame and neutral and ****. Death combos are the easiest ****ing thing on the planet to lab, play MK for more than a couple hours and you'll ****ing figure it out. hit dash attack, do uair. Good lord this is like a glorified + melodramatic "how do i do uairs post".

um, back to what i was saying, sorry

we're working on bringing together reliable information into one place. Well, I was, but I'm kind of otherwise occupied at the moment (first time I've checked back here in 2 weeks, life and such, bleh). You'll get it when we do.

Seriously though I don't understand what you find so hard about pushing the A button a few times, the only the thing that complicates it is rage + staling and that is way to complex for us to really even quantify beyond "uh, just guess, you'll kinda just know, the percent will feel right"

Also MK users have been among the most vocal about setting the record straight with regard to their character on cci and other places, what more do you want from us dude. I can come over to your place and give you a massage if thats really what you want, hold your controller for you and push A a few times. *shrug*

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But, there are other techniques like Dabuz's Luma walk that MIGHT significantly change the metagame if he were to share it, it is not something that can be easily found out, possibly even counter-intuitive. Keeping it secret might only harm other players of the character. I mean, you may not lose anything, maybe even gain a lot from that, but the potential overall gain is wasted.

Not having followed Dabuz for a while, the phrase "Luma Walk" makes me think of using its jab 2/3 to inch it forward slowly.

this thread made me laugh, thanks for that

as for information that the SB mk community is actively withholding, (if you can call it that, if you join the MK skype group we'll tell you what we know willingly 80% of the time) quite a lot of it is just junk we're experimenting with, with metagame and neutral and ****. Death combos are the easiest ****ing thing on the planet to lab, play MK for more than a couple hours and you'll ****ing figure it out. hit dash attack, do uair. Good lord this is like a glorified + melodramatic "how do i do uairs post".

um, back to what i was saying, sorry

we're working on bringing together reliable information into one place. Well, I was, but I'm kind of otherwise occupied at the moment (first time I've checked back here in 2 weeks, life and such, bleh). You'll get it when we do.

Seriously though I don't understand what you find so hard about pushing the A button a few times, the only the thing that complicates it is rage + staling and that is way to complex for us to really even quantify beyond "uh, just guess, you'll kinda just know, the percent will feel right"

Also MK users have been among the most vocal about setting the record straight with regard to their character on cci and other places, what more do you want from us dude. I can come over to your place and give you a massage if thats really what you want, hold your controller for you and push A a few times. *shrug*

I think it's been mentioned already, but to really lab out a kill combo you need a second player who can DI around, preferably in the same room to avoid online latency. The training dummy can't do that.

 

[Amadeus9]

Not having followed Dabuz for a while, the phrase "Luma Walk" makes me think of using its jab 2/3 to inch it forward slowly.

I think it's been mentioned already, but to really lab out a kill combo you need a second player who can DI around, preferably in the same room to avoid online latency. The training dummy can't do that.

So, how exactly do you want us to give you accurate percent ranges, then.

And it's not like I'm ignorant to this. It's part of what i'm trying to say. this **** is indefinite. There are many ways to confirm into combos. rage exists. there is no end all be all list. no one is being treated unfairly. anyone who thinks so is being foolish

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What has been bugging me lately is why we don't have any data on ground jump heights. I know that mid-air jump heights can be tough to figure out, but I would think that getting ground jump height data would be doable.

 

[LightLV]

It seems to me that there are many players in the Smash 4 community who consider it fair and reasonable to withhold, obscure, or otherwise deny the wider playerbase access to matchup and character information that should be public knowledge.


Most infamous is the % window information for Meta Knight's combo options being kept actively secret in order to allow top Meta Knight players to continue with current strategies.





That this attitude is not immediately and universally decried as the grotesquely poor sportsmanship it so clearly is baffles me. Games should be decided on skill and effort, not on the keeping of secret knowledge.

Some will say to this "you should go to the lab, no one HAS to tell you anything". And it's true that no one HAS to share information. But I would argue that the deliberate withholding of information is malicious and damages the metagame. It's not the right thing to do. Isaac Newton didn't keep his discoveries about gravitational mechanics a secret so that only he could benefit. He published his work for the benefit of the world.

So this is me calling these certain members of the Smash 4 community out. Everything that anyone knows should be made public. Anyone who continues to withold in-game information, framedata, combo escapability, etc. in order to maintain an advantage is putting their own petty successes ahead of the rest of the community. Shame on you, Ulevo. Shame on you, Abadongo. Shame on everyone who keeps these secrets.

This is by far the stupidest "strategy" to rely on in 2015, the age of social gaming. Of course, the competitive reason behind it is understandable, it's always better to have a trick up your sleeve. But it's a really stupid way to save a trick.

Why? Because if it's actually worthwhile information you're hiding, the moment you apply it to tournaments and high-stake matches, it's most likely going to be recorded, and your super cool secret is now well-documented and the counter-strategies / character jumping you've been fearing are going to inevitably happen.

It's essentially stunting the meta of the game for a finite amount of time, which MAAYY get you a surprise win or two, but inevitably will be weeded out and become common knowledge anyway and now you're back to square one....Of course we're talking about Smash here, so i don't really know what kind of "secret" anyone could actually keep. Again, anything that can happen on one console's training mode can be done on another.



This is a thread that should mostly be directed in the direction of Nintendo and their ******** decisions to not publicly release balance changes. For the reasons outlined in this post, i cannot think of a single logical reason why they would do this, other than to be deliberately tedious and archaic.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, how exactly do you want us to give you accurate percent ranges, then.

And it's not like I'm ignorant to this. It's part of what i'm trying to say. this **** is indefinite. There are many ways to confirm into combos. rage exists. there is no end all be all list. no one is being treated unfairly. anyone who thinks so is being foolish

I'm just saying that when you ask "why not do it yourself" the answer is "I can't." But even then, simply knowing that the % range is mutable is good info.

 

[MordhauDerk]

It's essentially stunting the meta of the game for a finite amount of time, which MAAYY get you a surprise win or two, but inevitably will be weeded out and become common knowledge anyway and now you're back to square one....Of course we're talking about Smash here, so i don't really know what kind of "secret" anyone could actually keep. Again, anything that can happen on one console's training mode can be done on another.

When people hide a strategy, they usually wait for a big event then use it. That one or two surprise wins could be the difference between getting 1st or getting 2nd. Pulling out a new, and most importantly, EFFECTIVE strategy is a one shot move, but it could potentially net you big money. Even if you have to go back to the drawing board afterword, it's worth it if it gets you that big win at a large tourney like EVO or APEX.

 

[LightLV]

When people hide a strategy, they usually wait for a big event then use it. That one or two surprise wins could be the difference between getting 1st or getting 2nd. Pulling out a new, and most importantly, EFFECTIVE strategy is a one shot move, but it could potentially net you big money. Even if you have to go back to the drawing board afterword, it's worth it if it gets you that big win at a large tourney like EVO or APEX.

The thing is though, the higher you go, the lower the chance of this technique actually working. And the chance you'd be able to climb with a non-S-tier character without pulling it out before the decisive moment is even less likely.

There are alot of little nuances to why I think this is a silly idea. But yeah you're right, it can be effective.

...I just don't think it's the best of ideas in a game like Smash 4, where gap between character tiers is especially noticeable.


EDIT:

Let me just clarify my opinion on this. I specifically think it's bad in situations like Smash because the community, as far as collective competitive knowledge, is pretty infantile. The amount of players who don't understand things like tiers, matchups, and other competitive gameplay concepts is huge.

So when people do stuff like this, it feels as if they're trying to force a character into a higher standing through matchup ignorance. Which is a legit strategy, just one that never scales well, because high-level players are aware of how serious a factor matchup experience can be. So in reality you aren't actually pushing your character forward when you aren't actually feeding the technique into the meta machine.

This is only an opinion that counts though if you are the type of player to switch characters if they lack viability (which all winners do). For most people it doesn't matter much though.

 

[MordhauDerk]

The thing is though, the higher you go, the lower the chance of this technique actually working. And the chance you'd be able to climb with a non-S-tier character without pulling it out before the decisive moment is even less likely.

There are alot of little nuances to why I think this is a silly idea. But yeah you're right, it can be effective.

...I just don't think it's the best of ideas in a game like Smash 4, where gap between character tiers is especially noticeable.

I wasn't specifically referring to Smash 4, I heard PPMD did something similar to this, but I can't recall exactly what he did. But I was making more of a general (if you could manage, it could help) in any game.
There are definitely pros and cons to this way of playing, but like I said, if you can save a secret winning strategy til a big tourney like EVO. It could net you a lot of money.

 

[LightLV]

I wasn't specifically referring to Smash 4, I heard PPMD did something similar to this, but I can't recall exactly what he did. But I was making more of a general (if you could manage, it could help) in any game.
There are definitely pros and cons to this way of playing, but like I said, if you can save a secret winning strategy til a big tourney like EVO. It could net you a lot of money.

Yeah, i just edited my previous post, because i realize this idea has its place in other fighting games, so condemning it entirely is misleading.

In games where characters have more options (complex frame traps or okizeme, strategies that may not be safe but can be conditioned into working on someone unsuspecting) this is a strategy that's easier to employ, but in a game like Smash 4, where character options are pretty rigid, I don't think it's as valuable. But hey, who knows.

Melee is one of those games, Brawl could have been as well since it was pretty neutral based and characters had alot of individual options though ATs. Smash 4 though...not unless you're S-tier.

 

[RonNewcomb]

My reaction to the title of this thread was, "wow, how anti-competitive."

Money is on the line in tournaments. I'm surprised there's as much sharing as there already is.

 

[Sonicninja115]

People could claim that ZeRo "withholds knowledge" because he doesn't actively share it. We didn't learn until GF at TO11 that Dtilt-Dsmash/Fsmash worked, because ZeRo didn't make a twitter post/video or thread about it. However, because he didn't do this, Esam was completely caught off-guard and ZeRo won, almost easily.

Besides that, as a researcher/Mewtwo Labber, I can say that it is often annoying when I post articles. When the patch came out, do you know how long I spent correcting false information? Everyone had tons of placebo surrounding them, and for some reason, nothing could convince them other then a ten post argument detailing exactly why it doesn't work. It isn't always fun making a discovery. I have a ton of Mewtwo info I could share and add. But it would take soooooo long to update my threads, lab it out, and then try to convince the people calling me a liar that it works. Do you think that is fun? Also, the Metaknight death percents were open to everyone for a while. I actually have some for ten or so characters. But then the community decided to remove them, and I don't blame them, it was a rather good decision.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I do personally believe hiding information and actively refusing to explain how some things work even simply is not healthy for the meta as a whole. People complain all the time about some commentators and how they're not knowledgeable enough of a character or certain matchups, which is silly if certain things are intentionally held back. People will learn something eventually, either through exposure from streams and just general tournaments that these tactics will be used in. It may be an easier win at the time, but it's definitely only momentarily as people oddshot everything and spread it vastly among the safe and dark reaches of the internet.

I'm not saying every last tech and percentage must be exposed to the internet, just don't be a **** about it please when I've asked of some of these things and I get a rude response...