Why do some mechanics get taken out?

[Anomalus]

-snip-

Maybe it's better to show than tell.

It's pretty easy to see here how good use of wavedashing increases Hax's mobility overall and specially on platforms, along with other uses. Then there's stuff like waveshining for spacies and probably more that I'm forgetting.

 

[PCHU]

But at a certain point these things are required, like a Falco vs Falco match. (Not too sure on the terminology in case I just said something stupid.)

Pillaring refers to Falco shining, jumping out of the shine to spike the opponent in the air, then landing and shining them back into the air to possibly get another rep.

And, my response:
Is it, though?
Are you guaranteed to lose just because you choose to play a match differently?
Would you lose a Fox vs. Fox match if you never drillshined?
Not necessarily, but I'll admit that I'd be a liar if I said the road would be easy.

I highly suggest you read that article linked earlier; I read a few pages and it's got some solid reasoning.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

 

[Kamiko]

But you can already act immediately when you touch the ground. The point isn't that you can act immediately upon landing, it's that because the technique stems from both a jump and a maneuver that controls when you hault aerial movement, you can do things you otherwise couldn't. I don't see how your suggestion allows you to snap to platforms faster, for instance. It also doesn't let you act out of shield without suffering shield drop lag, as another example.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by snapping to platforms, but Powershielding is the mechanic intended to let players act faster after shielding. If you shield without an attack coming at you, you have every right to be punished for it.

It's hard to explain since I've never gotten past 'casual' Snaking, but it changed the best lines, first and foremost. Snaking also required much more precise player imput, raising the skill level of MK much like Melee's techs did. Again, you're just generalizing what Snaking did.

Snaking had little to do with skill. Until you can point out or show what else it did, then all it did was make players go faster, and is just as bad as L-canceling or the absurdly long combos in MvC3.

 

[Beats]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by snapping to platforms, but Powershielding is the mechanic intended to let players act faster after shielding. If you shield without an attack coming at you, you have every right to be punished for it.


Snaking had little to do with skill. Until you can point out or show what else it did, then all it did was make players go faster, and is just as bad as L-canceling or the absurdly long combos in MvC3.

Rather than jumping above the height of the platform and taking the extra time to land back onto it, you can just waveland onto the platform as soon as you're high enough. Same concept as wavelanding onto the stage from ledge.

Personally I like having techs for the very reason some people dislike it, which is adding difficulty. There's just something satisfying about putting in extra effort to learn something, and being able to use it to do cool things. Part of the reason I like Project M so much is because I can use techs from both melee and brawl. Although admittedly, playing too much of it puts a whole lot of strain on my fingers and wrists, and it can be rather painful. For that reason alone I'd be okay with Smash 4 toning things down a bit.

 

[Kamiko]

Rather than jumping above the height of the platform and taking the extra time to land back onto it, you can just waveland onto the platform as soon as you're high enough. Same concept as wavelanding onto the stage from ledge.

That could be achieved by increasing fall speed and changing the way jumping works. Like I said last page, Megaman Zero pulls this off nicely. The moment you release the jump button, you start falling, so you never have to overshoot a jump. From there, getting the landing just right becomes a matter of timing it well.

 

[Cassio]

Big misconceptions throughout this thread:

1. You dont need complicated mechanics for a game to be offensive oriented and therefore enjoyable to watch or have deep player interaction. That being said they can make the game more enjoyable and increase replay value.

2. I understand the noobs distaste for AT's, but to be perfectly honest tech skill and AT's are typically better crutches for improvement then raw exposure to a games mental gaps. Youre going to get owned and its mostly not going to be because of the games mechanics.

 

[Calibrate]

Because for some utterly stupid reason, developers reason like this:

Durr! Game too hard! Durr! Nerf everything! Durr, game now for casuals!

When in fact it works like this:

A) You are a casual and play against someone pro in melee
A1) You lose

B) You are a casual and play against another casual in melee
B1) You either win or lose, since both of you yucky casuals, and you don't know any techniques anyway.

C) You are a casual and play against someone pro in brawl
C1) You lose after a bit of a longer time than A1

D) You are a casual and play against another casual in brawl
D1) You either win or lose, since both of you yuck casuals are still casuals, no matter the lack of techniques.

The only thing removing mechanics does is that it makes the game dumber. It's not for the casuals, it's not for anyone. Pros will beat casuals whether they can wavedash or not. Allowing them to wavedash make the pro vs pro matches more interesting.

But hey, logic is something only a handful of people on this earth can understand. So it's not unreasonable that people are this unreasonable.



And PS: Don't come with the whole "casuals won't buy the game if there are advanced techniques", because obviously casuals don't even know about it was a mechanic before buying the game.
And nobody has to use the advanced mechanics like wavedashing to win, it isn't necessary!


EDIT: I received a flaming warning for this. Lol.

 

[slicesabre]

Sometimes things are in games that the devs never intended and in the newer games they get taken out because devs sometimes view those things as mistakes.

Just because players like something doesn't mean it should be in the game or in the newer versions of the game. If something happened happened in a game that caused the player to have infinite ammo in a game, would you not expect devs to remove it? Sure the vast majority of the fanbase my love it but that doesn't make it good.

 

[shininimuss]

Just a note, the item distribution system is based on distance instead of place, as to prevent people getting bullets when everybody is all bunched together. Once you start to get a feel for it you probably won't be complaining..

nope i was playing it today after getting combo'd by items in first place i was way behind in last no one in site, yet i was only given one mushroom, theres obviously a problem with the item distribution in mk8.

 

[PCHU]

Sometimes things are in games that the devs never intended and in the newer games they get taken out because devs sometimes view those things as mistakes.

Just because players like something doesn't mean it should be in the game or in the newer versions of the game. If something happened happened in a game that caused the player to have infinite ammo in a game, would you not expect devs to remove it? Sure the vast majority of the fanbase my love it but that doesn't make it good.

I can see your point, but some people don't want anything too powerful left in, we just want more freedom in regards to our characters (then again, I don't speak for everyone).
Crouch canceling a dash is arguably the best minor tech we could get back (that we haven't already gotten back) just because of the options it gives us; I'm not quite sure why it was done away with from Melee to Brawl.

 

[LancerStaff]

nope i was playing it today after getting combo'd by items in first place i was way behind in last no one in site, yet i was only given one mushroom, theres obviously a problem with the item distribution in mk8.

Dude, it's still random like it's always been. You should probably just sell your copy if you're going to blow-up over one lost race. And why are we even discussing this on Smashboards anyway?

 

[PCHU]

Dude, it's still random like it's always been. You should probably just sell your copy if you're going to blow-up over one lost race. And why are we even discussing this on Smashboards anyway?

There are legions of people who agree that the item distribution is definitely messed up.
Several accounts of 2nd place getting triple reds/star/crazy 8 (I've had this happen to me a few times by my own girlfriend)/blue shell, while 3rd or even 12th gets a mushroom (which has been nerfed beyond usefulness) or a coin (happens to me all the time).
It's a decent game with semi-memorable tracks, but the item system should be reworked; even MKWii's system was more appealing (then again, it had the fake item boxes and NO COINS [and I enjoyed the tracks more]).

Also, many of us brought up Mario Kart here (you included), so don't act so surprised it's been brought up again.

 

[LancerStaff]

There are legions of people who agree that the item distribution is definitely messed up.
Several accounts of 2nd place getting triple reds/star/crazy 8 (I've had this happen to me a few times by my own girlfriend)/blue shell, while 3rd or even 12th gets a mushroom (which has been nerfed beyond usefulness) or a coin (happens to me all the time).
It's a decent game with semi-memorable tracks, but the item system should be reworked; even MKWii's system was more appealing (then again, it had the fake item boxes and NO COINS [and I enjoyed the tracks more]).

Also, many of us brought up Mario Kart here (you included), so don't act so surprised it's been brought up again.

There are also legions of people who understand the new system. I can't help but feel this is the same type of situation in which M2K claimed that Pit's arrows were unavoidable. Anyway, having just gotten 5500 VR, I can safely say the new system works much better then the old one. First and foremost, the first item will always be a dud. No bullets right out of the gate or other tom-foolery. What could of otherwise been the most important item is now consistent. And the new system actually rebalances the randomness based on skill. The looser the groups, the more random things get. The tighter the groups, the weaker the items, but there'll also be less coin items. Having lead a few races with a bunch of players at my level I've only gotten like two coin items all day (but I keep a deathgrip on peals, so it might just be a difference in strategy). Again, give it more time before you declare MKW better.

When I brought up MK, it was a comparison to SSB. He's just complaining about the new item system.

 

[RODO]

There are legions of people who agree that the item distribution is definitely messed up.
Several accounts of 2nd place getting triple reds/star/crazy 8 (I've had this happen to me a few times by my own girlfriend)/blue shell, while 3rd or even 12th gets a mushroom (which has been nerfed beyond usefulness) or a coin (happens to me all the time).
It's a decent game with semi-memorable tracks, but the item system should be reworked; even MKWii's system was more appealing (then again, it had the fake item boxes and NO COINS [and I enjoyed the tracks more]).

Also, many of us brought up Mario Kart here (you included), so don't act so surprised it's been brought up again.

The game gives you items based off of distance from first rather than based off of what place you are in. That is why a second or third place person can actually get good items now. I kind of like it.

 

[PCHU]

There are also legions of people who understand the new system. I can't help but feel this is the same type of situation in which M2K claimed that Pit's arrows were unavoidable. Anyway, having just gotten 5500 VR, I can safely say the new system works much better then the old one. First and foremost, the first item will always be a dud. No bullets right out of the gate or other tom-foolery. What could of otherwise been the most important item is now consistent. And the new system actually rebalances the randomness based on skill. The looser the groups, the more random things get. The tighter the groups, the weaker the items, but there'll also be less coin items. Having lead a few races with a bunch of players at my level I've only gotten like two coin items all day (but I keep a deathgrip on peals, so it might just be a difference in strategy). Again, give it more time before you declare MKW better.

When I brought up MK, it was a comparison to SSB. He's just complaining about the new item system.

Edit: Long story short, I've been in situations where it seemed to be exactly what people said it would and situations where I truly question the legitimacy of the distance system; the nerfed mushrooms and inclusion of coin as an item are also a bit irritating.
I don't really wish to continue this any further.

 

[HeroMystic]

I got curious, so I did some research on what Snaking actually is, only to find out I've been doing this ever since Mario Kart 64.

Wonder what that says about myself.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I was skimming through this thread, and wasn't sure if this was a point someone made, but if you think back on one of the Street Fighter 2 games (Turbo, was it?) Being able to cancel an attack into another attack to string true combos was actually a glitch due to programming oversight. However, it worked so well from a gameplay standpoint that the glitch was kept in as an actual gameplay mechanic for not just the rest of the series, but for other fighters that followed.

What Nintendo could have done was take mechanics that were received well in competitive play, and kept them in (dash-dancing and L-canceling coming to mind). I can understand why wavedashing wouldn't make it in due to the changed air dodge mechanic, but I digress. I do understand Nintendo (more specifically, Sakurai) wanting the game to appeal to casual players too, but to remove simple mechanics that even beginners can understand (dash-dancing and L-canceling) seems like a step back. It didn't work well for Brawl, so why would it work for Smash 4, especially now that the speed of the game is increased and tripping removed, making dash-dancing a very viable option, and the increased fall speed means L-canceling would be very valuable to characters who fall to the ground before any of their aerials finished their animation.

Just my two cents... and a pie.

 

[Kamiko]

L-canceling would be very valuable to characters who fall to the ground before any of their aerials finished their animation.

I've actually recently thought up an alternative solution to dealing with landing lag, but rather than saying it here, I think I might just make a new thread for it.

 

[RODO]

I've actually recently thought up an alternative solution to dealing with landing lag, but rather than saying it here, I think I might just make a new thread for it.

Where is your thread at?? I'm curious to see it.

 

[Kamiko]

Where is your thread at?? I'm curious to see it.

Oh, I haven't made it yet. I was busy with some other things. I'll link to it from here when I do though.

 

[D-idara]

There are legions of people who agree that the item distribution is definitely messed up.
Several accounts of 2nd place getting triple reds/star/crazy 8 (I've had this happen to me a few times by my own girlfriend)/blue shell, while 3rd or even 12th gets a mushroom (which has been nerfed beyond usefulness) or a coin (happens to me all the time).
It's a decent game with semi-memorable tracks, but the item system should be reworked; even MKWii's system was more appealing (then again, it had the fake item boxes and NO COINS [and I enjoyed the tracks more]).

Also, many of us brought up Mario Kart here (you included), so don't act so surprised it's been brought up again.

"Mario Kart 8 is a decent game with semi-memorable tracks..."

 

[Kamiko]

Oh, I haven't made it yet. I was busy with some other things. I'll link to it from here when I do though.

Ok, here it is:
http://smashboards.com/threads/landing-lag-a-solution.358927/

Feel free to tear it to pieces.

 

[PCHU]

"Mario Kart 8 is a decent game with semi-memorable tracks..."

I actually like the MKWii one better, and I'm not alone in this (but I'd never say my opinion is absolute).
I think they should've kept the big jump in the N64 version, but put boost pads on the track so it wouldn't be an overpowered skip.

Wario Stadium from the N64 would've been nice, too, and I'm sad to see that they brought back Grumble Volcano rather than Coconut Mall or Maple Treeway/Mushroom Gorge.