Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[Red Arremer]

I don't know Yoshi well enough to agree or disagree with your other points, so don't take that for granted.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Lol. And being able to dash dance would help Yoshi and every character in the game. How is being able to move in and out of range from the opponent without risk not help Yoshi at all? :/

You would not happen to be on drugs, would you?

You obviously read my post too fast to notice I basically explained Yoshi would benefit from no tripping BUT it would not help him enough and he would still suck...really badly.

Edit: This avatar sucks just as bad...

 

[Veril]

Doing something that voids a warrenty ≠ doing something illegal. You do not even need to load homebrew on a wii to use this hack (which is what would void the warrenty in the first place, so even that isn't an issue). Arguing against it based on legality or difficulties associated with hacking are not based in reality. You are doing nothing illegal.

Removing tripping makes brawl a better game, much like removing items, limiting stage choice, playing with 3 stock, ledge-grab limits, etc. This is just the logical step from there. You won't get sued, SD cards are cheap, you can get a premade tournament SD package with just this code and the programs needed to load it without actually installing homebrew.

 

[TLMSheikant]

You would not happen to be on drugs, would you?

You obviously read my post too fast to notice I basically explained Yoshi would benefit from no tripping BUT it would not help him enough and he would still suck...really badly.

Edit: This avatar sucks just as bad...

Ok, Im done here in tactical discussion.

Spoiler

Ur such a scrub.

 

[Chuee]

We're not wanting to ban tripping to make characters better.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I SINCERELY doubt the BBR will ever endorse a hacked ruleset of any sort.


Why? Primarily practical issues, we can't standardize hacked wiis, it creates a massive headache for tournaments. There are also the legal issues.


In addition, there's simple competitive philosophy, any change in the game's programming that effects gameplay makes it a separate game. Sure, it's not Brawl+, but it's just as much a hacked metagame as Brawl+, and while there's nothing wrong with Brawl+, it's not the standard metagame.

We need a better term than pro-tripping. That's like labeling pro-choice advocates "pro-death".

How about... anti-arbitrary-hacks-based-on-popularity.

That's catchy!

Never be "anti-anything".



"Pro-Hackless".

Doing something that voids a warrenty ≠ doing something illegal. You do not even need to load homebrew on a wii to use this hack (which is what would void the warrenty in the first place, so even that isn't an issue). Arguing against it based on legality or difficulties associated with hacking are not based in reality. You are doing nothing illegal.

Removing tripping makes brawl a better game, much like removing items, limiting stage choice, playing with 3 stock, ledge-grab limits, etc. This is just the logical step from there. You won't get sued, SD cards are cheap, you can get a premade tournament SD package with just this code and the programs needed to load it without actually installing homebrew.

Veril, I'm almost positive this depends on the copyright laws of your area, most of this stuff violates the end user agreement in ways that may or may not be legally enforceable depending on your country, and I'm pretty sure European CR laws would cover this.

 

[Braxton2011]

You would not happen to be on drugs, would you?

You obviously read my post too fast to notice I basically explained Yoshi would benefit from no tripping BUT it would not help him enough and he would still suck...really badly.

Edit: This avatar sucks just as bad...

You know nothing of Yoshi. Half of Yoshi's AT's are based on running. And LOTS of running. Try doing DR without running and see how much it helps you in a match.

Or Egg toss Slide. Hell, trying to Pivot Grab > Trip is the lamest because Yoshi's trip animation...
Actually, a lot of trip animations are long.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

We're not wanting to ban tripping to make characters better.

Positive? That one person who joined Dec 2009 sure acted like it and I shut down his argument.

I SINCERELY doubt the BBR will ever endorse a hacked ruleset of any sort.


Why? Primarily practical issues, we can't standardize hacked wiis, it creates a massive headache for tournaments. There are also the legal issues.


In addition, there's simple competitive philosophy, any change in the game's programming that effects gameplay makes it a separate game. Sure, it's not Brawl+, but it's just as much a hacked metagame as Brawl+, and while there's nothing wrong with Brawl+, it's not the standard metagame.




Never be "anti-anything".



"Pro-Hackless".

Hopefully you guys can at least read this version of my main argument.

Edit: @Braxton, oh please that one mistake. So you are telling me that BBR is lying and that Yoshi is a good character? I cannot even grasp on what you are trying to say on the rest of the jibberish you said.

 

[Braxton2011]

I REALLY like how people who say legal issue are involved don't realize that using the "STAGE BUILDER LOADER" does not even matter in any legal issue. Despite how it looks, it isn't effecting anything on the Wii EXCEPT the games physics.

 

[Masmasher@]

You never adressed my illegal point, which is the main reason I will not allow gameplay hacks in my tournaments.

I don't want to get booted from my location or even get sued or something when hosting a tournament with officially hacked rulesets.

(that said, only one person of the people vouching for hack-rulesets adressed this point, but didn't offer a satisfying solution for this problem)

im not debating that. but seeing that as a reason not to hack wiis i will concede that point.
what i am saying is that keeping tripping in the game because it "promotes getting better" or "having skill" is completely and utterly ********.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

im not debating that. but seeing that as a reason not to hack wiis i will concede that point.
what i am saying is that keeping tripping in the game because it "promotes getting better" or "having skill" is completely and utterly ********.

All you had to say was that you were arguing MY comments the entire time. Now back your **** up w/ facts.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I REALLY like how people who say legal issue are involved don't realize that using the "STAGE BUILDER LOADER" does not even matter in any legal issue. Despite how it looks, it isn't effecting anything on the Wii EXCEPT the games physics.

...

Except as expressly authorized by us in writing, you may not create works based on the Wii Network Service or the Nintendo IP or modify, distribute, or transmit the Nintendo IP.

The entire game including the physics are part of the Nintendo IP.

 

[Punishment Divine]

GunmasterLombardi is bad, and should feel bad

 

[Chuee]

Positive? That one person who joined Dec 2009 sure acted like it and I shut down his argument.
You said that we should avoid running so we don't trip, and he says some characters rely on running.


Edit: @Braxton, oh please that one mistake. So you are telling me that BBR is lying and that Yoshi is a good character? I cannot even grasp on what you are trying to say on the rest of the jibberish you said.

lol where the **** did he ever say that Yoshi was good? He just said that Yoshi relies on running.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

GunmasterLombardi is bad, and should feel bad

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/29358/original/umad.jpg

Blank statements are bad and you should feel bad for posting them.

Edit: @Chuee, I realized that he was referring to how I thought no tripping wouldn't make Yoshi much better. I was right, so it should be left alone.

 

[Masmasher@]

All you had to say was that you were arguing MY comments the entire time. Now back your **** up w/ facts.

lmao how much is there to say. you seen the vids
its random, useless and assigns victories to the unworthy. to say diffrerent is dumb.

 

[Punishment Divine]

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/29358/original/umad.jpgTrue statements are true and make me feel bad when post them.

I'm sorry, what?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

lmao how much is there to say. you seen the vids
its random, useless and assigns victories to the unworthy. to say diffrerent is dumb.

But the data supplied by the vids are inconsistent.

You don't see matches like that happening everyday, I bet not even at all for some months. You don't see these cases getting worse upon the metagame evolving. Why should you fix something that isn't broken (I'm speaking about the metagame, but then removing tripping would result in a different game)?

@PD, nice grammar when dumbing up my post.

 

[Veril]

Veril, I'm almost positive this depends on the copyright laws of your area, most of this stuff violates the end user agreement in ways that may or may not be legally enforceable depending on your country, and I'm pretty sure European CR laws would cover this.

What exactly do you mean by "most of this stuff". The game itself is not being distributed, no profit is being made off the code and besides, Nintendo has no copyright on the "no tripping code". I know that isn't what you meant but using an SD card based hack that does not require a new installed channel or any hardware modification, is so tenuous a case for copyright infringement that I cannot see Nintendo taking any legal action.

"Looks at the section of smashboards devoted to modding the game"

Hasn't come down yet has it? Smashboards is owned by MLG right. I know there's a gag rule in effect about hacking the wii via modchips or homebrewing, but that has not extended to censorship of codes. You can find the no tripping code on this very website.

I think the issue is worth looking into more than just tossing the idea on account of nebulous and unspecified legal issues.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What exactly do you mean by "most of this stuff". The game itself is not being distributed, no profit is being made off the code and besides, Nintendo has no copyright on the "no tripping code". I know that isn't what you meant but using an SD card based hack that does not require a new installed channel or any hardware modification, is so tenuous a case for copyright infringement that I cannot see Nintendo taking any legal action.

"Looks at the section of smashboards devoted to modding the game"

Hasn't come down yet has it? Smashboards is owned by MLG right. I know there's a gag rule in effect about hacking the wii via modchips or homebrewing, but that has not extended to censorship of codes. You can find the no tripping code on this very website.

I think the issue is worth looking into more than just tossing the idea on account of nebulous and unspecified legal issues.

*points above*


The quoted section of the EULA prohibits it.

Of course it's for individual users, so MLG is off the hook, but most users would technically be in violation.


Furthermore, whether or not the codes themselves are in violation is an interesting issue, however using them certainly is because that actually modifies the IP.


But as I said, CR laws vary, and depending on your country, it may or may not qualify as "fair use", which is protected under law.

 

[Masmasher@]

But the data supplied by the vids are inconsistent.

You don't see matches like that happening everyday, I bet not even at all for some months. You don't see these cases getting worse upon the metagame evolving. Why should you fix something that isn't broken (I'm speaking about the metagame, but then removing tripping would result in a different game)?

@PD, nice grammar when dumbing up my post.

*facepalm*
its inconsistent cause its random!

 

[Kewkky]

What I'm seeing here is... GunmasterLombardi is trying to present his stance with the wrong points. It's gaining him lots of weird stares and defamation... But when other people who present their stances do so with the right arguments, he says that it's exactly what he's trying to say.

I've got nothing against you, Gunmaster. Really, I don't... But you should learn how to debate properly. You're only affecting your own credibility in a negative way.

tbh this isn't a debate, it's nonsense. Everything, even my own posts, are nonsense cause tripping is no big deal.

Hopefully you guys can at least read this version of my main argument.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

**** you 502 Bad Gateway...

@Kewkky: To be honest I'm starting to think I'm horrible at wording things properly, but I do recall making it clear that removing tripping creates a different game, b4 adum showed up.

 

[Masmasher@]

yeah...a decent game

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tripping is a very tiny factor, if you don't think it's a good game there's a lot more that would have to be changed to make it that.


We have Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, and my personal Favorite Brawl- for that.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Tripping is a very tiny factor, if you don't think it's a good game there's a lot more that would have to be changed to make it that.


We have Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, and my personal Favorite Brawl- for that.

That is what it all boils down to:

"Don't like it, don't play it."

I'm trying to figure out how this discussion lasted longer than a day w/ that being said a long time ago.

 

[Masmasher@]

Tripping is a very tiny factor, if you don't think it's a good game there's a lot more that would have to be changed to make it that.


We have Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, and my personal Favorite Brawl- for that.

yeah im exaggerating. but saying it takes more skill to have tripping in a game is ridiculous

 

[ToxiCrow]

Tripping is random and punishes you for dashing. It doesn't test your skill, doesn't seperate good players from bad ones, and it serves no purpose. Why would anyone want tripping to be in this game?
No one should be upset about it being removed. Many of us have attended tournaments with the no tripping code, and I'm pretty sure we've never seen anyone get upset mid-tournament because of it (at least I haven't).
Now with MLG and No tripping: Not happening. And if by chance it does, then awesome.

Also, GunmasterLombardi is the YesNoMaybeSo of this thread. So much fail logic it's hilarious.

"Tripping is good! Dash Less! Good players don't put themselves in positions where they need to dash!!"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nobody WANTS tripping.


But people are opposed to modifying the game via hacking as an official part of the main competitive format for a variety of legal, philosophical, and practical reasons.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Tripping is random and punishes you for dashing. It doesn't test your skill, doesn't seperate good players from bad ones, and it serves no purpose. Why would anyone want tripping to be in this game?
I wouldn't care if it was PROGRAMMED into the game or not. Tripping is not a problem that could put the metagame in danger or cause constant lose of matches because of it.
No one should be upset about it being removed. Many of us have attended tournaments with the no tripping code, and I'm pretty sure we've never seen anyone get upset mid-tournament because of it (at least I haven't).
It is not the same game when you apply the code.
Now with MLG and No tripping: Not happening. And if by chance it does, then awesome.

Also, GunmasterLombardi is the YesNoMaybeSo of this thread. So much fail logic it's hilarious.

"Tripping is good! Dash Less! Good players don't put themselves in positions where they need to dash!!"

Ok, I am calling you out.

Point out when I directly said tripping was a good thing. My point was that you should know the risks of dashing. This does NOT mean you should dash less, but capitalize on other options. If you've taken high damage you should know better than to dash a lot. GET F'N BETTER.

Also, comparing me to YesNoMaybeSo isn't a good argument because today's YNMS is NOT a troll on the boards. Maybe if you were on track like the rest of us you would know that, but that isn't the case.

I hope you will be smarter in the future and read the comments I left in yellow for they are my MAIN argument for keeping tripping.

 

[Masmasher@]

Nobody WANTS tripping.


But people are opposed to modifying the game via hacking as an official part of the main competitive format for a variety of legal, philosophical, and practical reasons.

ill give you the legal and practical reasons but I dont see a philosophical reason at all...

EDIT gunmaster your second reason makes no sense.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

ill give you the legal and practical reasons but I dont see a philosophical reason at all...

EDIT gunmaster your second reason makes no sense.

Ok.

"It is not the same game when you apply the code."

This is saying that you are not dealing w/ SSBB anymore when you make the external modification to it, but you are rather dealing w/ a game that is similar to SSBB. They are two different things w/ a slightly different gameplay makeup. Gameplay changes because w/ no tripping, dash dancing and ground camping related sequences are more focused on (for a handful of characters, and potentially everyone).

So you are now playing a different game, SSBB w/o tripping, but there are plenty of hack projects that potentially contain better value than that (BBrawl, Brawl-, Brawl+, etc.) so why ONLY remove tripping?

 

[adumbrodeus]

ill give you the legal and practical reasons but I dont see a philosophical reason at all...

EDIT gunmaster your second reason makes no sense.

I explained before, it's competitive philosophy, changing the gameplay of the game makes it a separate game with it's own metagame, it's not Brawl anymore when hacked.

 

[sunshade]

GunmasterLombardi if there was a built in feature to turn tripping off (as in out of the box you could toggle it off in the option feature like we toggle stock) would you still think we should keep it on?

Just about everyone will answer that with a no because tripping is a non competitive aspect of brawl which if removable in an easy/legal way without any other possible issues would be done in a heartbeat. In our current position however we cannot remove tripping without violating the law (via hacking) and without the risk of cheating (someone putting other hacks onto the SD card an making very very subtle changes to their advantage).

Because you never responded to this post GunmasterLombardi, I am going to quote myself. I would really like to hear your opinion on the hypothetical I proposed. If you honestly think that should we be able to legally and easily toggle off tripping would you choose not to because you think it is better for the game to have it on?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

...

Edit:@sunshade, I would also say no, because such an oppurtunity would work in-game w/ out any outside modifications that would make the game something else.

My credibility for others are droppin' like flies.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Because you never responded to this post GunmasterLombardi, I am going to quote myself. I would really like to hear your opinion on the hypothetical I proposed. If you honestly think that should we be able to legally and easily toggle off tripping would you choose not to because you think it is better for the game to have it on?

Exact same reason we're able to turn off items. It is a separate metagame, but the game itself forces the choice, so it's still Brawl.

 

[Masmasher@]

I explained before, it's competitive philosophy, changing the gameplay of the game makes it a separate game with it's own metagame, it's not Brawl anymore when hacked.

that sounds more like tradition then a competitive mindset.
plus the fact that tripping is in the game hurts competitveness.

 

[adumbrodeus]

that sounds more like tradition then a competitive mindset.
plus the fact that tripping is in the game hurts competitveness.

Hacking the game = It's not the same game, how's that not philosophical?


Granted, the reason for this is practical, for a viable competitive scene, a universally accepted standard needs to be held, and using the shelf version makes the scene far more accessible to new players, as well as making it less subject to the whims of an unpredictable community.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Ok, I am calling you out.

Point out when I directly said tripping was a good thing.
I was mocking you. Can't you tell when you're being made fun of?
My point was that you should know the risks of dashing.
Again, you shouldn't be punished for dashing. Is dashing so overpowered so that it has to be limited?

Also, comparing me to YesNoMaybeSo isn't a good argument because today's YNMS is NOT a troll on the boards. Maybe if you were on track like the rest of us you would know that, but that isn't the case.
It's the same thing as comparing you to a character from a TV show/movie. Like I said earlier, you're being made fun of

I hope you will be smarter in the future and read the comments I left in yellow for they are my MAIN argument for keeping tripping.
LololololoL your view on the matter sucks

You're acting like "No tripping" is something thats going to drastically alter the metagame when in reality it won't. Chaingrabs, Infinites, Jab locks, Grab releases etc will still be in this game.
X character won't be better than Y character just because tripping is gone. Tripping doesn't bring out the best in anyone, even if it is "one more thing to think about." Like many before me have said, it only harms competitive play.

 

[Dantarion]

Hacking the game to remove an element of gameplay doesn't make it a different game.

Brawl without tripping = Brawl without tripping, nothing more or less.

If you say its a different game, when the only difference is something that only harms competitive gameplay, fine, but its not like removing tripping is a change that anyone is going to argue against.