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Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

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XHMI

Smash Rookie
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Mar 20, 2008
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Actually, Unlike most of the people on this forum, I would agree somewhat with this thread
let me explain myself

Meta Knight in a one-on-one battle pwns face
we've all seen on youtube how a meta Knight pushes a fox into a corner of corneria, and spams neutral a bring the fox up to 100 damage, then exectes a smash to win the match

but against multiple characters, Meta Knight is doomed for failure, wheras he does not have a way to deal with multiple characters at once (like the use of a projectile)

Once again, in a stock match, you will never beat meta Knight, simply because his recovery, speed, and stealth is too good. However, on a time match, because he lacks a good killer, MK will almost always lose

so what am I trying to say?
that, while tiers still do exist, they do not apply even closly to how they did in melee
back then, fox beat bowser and that was the end of story
now, even characters considered OP can be defeated by weaker characters, given the correct stage, # of characters, and type of match
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Once again, in a stock match, you will never beat meta Knight, simply because his recovery, speed, and stealth is too good. However, on a time match, because he lacks a good killer, MK will almost always lose
This made me lol. I swear this forum is doomed by shoobies.
 

LOL_Master

Smash Lord
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yep, yep. It's all true. Although if you want me to blow you off I really suggest you read my signature first. Technically brawl and scrub are two different words, and by technically I mean you made up your own word for no apparent reason.
you are still a noob nonetheless and have a dumb signature, you think you are smart? lmao gtfo
 

-notic

Smash Cadet
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this is why brawl should have a tier list

because you're an idiotic jackwad if you disagree that there should be one

/thread
 

Enshoku

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you are still a noob nonetheless and have a dumb signature, you think you are smart? lmao gtfo
dumb /dʌm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[duhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -er, -est, verb
–adjective
1. lacking the power of speech (often offensive when applied to humans): a dumb animal.

You were able to figure out that my signature can't talk all by yourself? You deserve a cookie!
 

RBinator

Smash Journeyman
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I see that Maximo will never change his mind and only keep acting superior to everyone else and calling them idiots if they don't agree with him. With that said, I wanna break his "arguments" down just to see how he'll reply to me. My replies are colored below.

You can't reduce Brawl to ONLY a test of skill, There's always somthing at play, character, stage, stock or time limit, multiple players...This game was never meant to even the playing field perfectly, and tripping enforces that. It has nothing to do with casual/ competitive, its people trying to turn brawl into somthing it's not. Fine you don't like Brawl, go play Melee. I'm not going harass you about the things I don't like in Melee, and believe me there are a ton.

Hows does tripping enforce not having a perfectly even playing field? Tripping just randomly punishes characters for actions like dashing. Even without tripping, there will never be a perfectly even playing field because of the differences between the characters. There's a difference between not liking Brawl as a whole and not liking certain aspects about Brawl. Just because someone doesn't like tripping doesn't mean they don't like Brawl.

Reasons that could be for tripping-

1. People stop being so serious about somthing thats supposed to be fun.
2. Take the edge of the advantage away from flat stage/speed ( like fox )
3. Its funny
4. To make you understand a game could still be competitive even with randomn factors.
5. To troll the hell out of people like you.
6. Add "improvising" to gameplay, sure your perfect little run combo failed. NOW IMPROVISE.
7. Give a slight advtantage to Ariel characters ( Like ness/Lucas ) seriously I RARELY trip.
8. Make the game less about effective running, and more about timed attacks.
9. Make the game less offensive biased.

Hmm...those are just a few guesses. There ya go.

1. What's wrong with being a little serious about the game when played for prize money? Fun can still be had even when playing for prize money. Tripping, according to many players including myself, doesn't add any fun to the game.
2. Anyone is as likely to trip as Fox. Why would Sakurai do, as you call, give someone an advantage on the ground, just to try to take it away with random tripping?
3. Will it be funny when your plan fails and while you're on the ground, you get hit and miss out on thousands of prize money?
4. Sakurai from what I gathered, never intended Brawl (and possibly even Melee) to be competitive, so how does this reason hold water?
5. So you're saying Sakurai went out of his way just to get tournament players fired up?
6. What?
7. If you really can trip in mid air, then this reason fails.
8. So you're saying dash attacks are not timed attacks?
9. You mean to say in Melee playing defensive didn't have any edge over playing offensive so that Sakurai had to reduce the offensive game in Brawl?


Its okay to have complaints, and not like Brawl for the 23987532689 time, I am not telling you not to critic Sakurai, I'm telling you to have some respect. Casual's arn't superior to you, just me. Enough with the labelling.

Look, we can say we don't like some design decisions Sakurai made for Brawl regardless if you tell us we can or not. Just because we say we don't like some design choices that Sakurai made doesn't mean we don't have respect for him. What makes you think Sakurai is so high and mighty that you think people shouldn't question anything he does? Wait a minute, you're saying your superior to someone else, because you said so?

Thats like saying all black people like fried chicken, you can't speak on the behalf of alot of people who call themselves "casual" gamers. I can see why alot of people hate it, but instead of whining about it, figure out how it works into your precious METAGAME.

If you haven't notice, people are looking into ways to deal with tripping when it happens, since we already know it isn't gonna go away.

I don't think stupid people should throw the word "stupid" around :)

Get off your high horse, seriously. It's time like this I get the urge to really flame you badly, but I'm just not that sort of person, usually.

Not for pointing out "mistakes" but thinking you know better than him, you call him stupid so you must think you're more intelligent, and basically pissing on a game that you're going to play anyway, AND enjoy....Yeah i think that pretty much covers Elitist, Selfish, and Arrogant.

When was anything said about being better then Sakurai? There's a different calling someone stupid and calling something they do stupid. In this case, it's the latter. Are you saying we're not allowed to have any complains about a game that we're gonna play for years to come?
Let's see if Maximo decides to call me stupid and act superior to me.
 

C 3

Smash Ace
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The game has been out for less than 2 weeks, the meta game for brawl is still under development, and there have only been a handful of tournaments involving serious players/pros. Wouldn't it be reasonable to give it more time, let more ppl (especially pros) get the game/wii, then take things from there?
 

kamekasu

Smash Ace
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I see that Maximo will never change his mind and only keep acting superior to everyone else and calling them idiots if they don't agree with him. With that said, I wanna break his "arguments" down just to see how he'll reply to me. My replies are colored below.



Let's see if Maximo decides to call me stupid and act superior to me.
Unfortunately, it's been done. He just doesn't listen to reason. I think the root cause of this problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Smash Bros. metagame, and the tier list itself. There should be a stickied guide outlining both of these things, and only then will these kinds of misinformed posts stop clogging up threads.
 

Scicky

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
263
This game is diverse, and if there's diversity in a fighting game, there will be tiers.
^^

Also, Tiers are also based on Tournament results, so even
if EVERY CHARACTER WAS NEARLY IDENTICAL there could
still be tiers...

(Also, someone mentioned Air Tripping, which isn't nessecarily tripping, when
your opponent does a midair jump right above you, it'll act as if you were footstool
jumped... for example


------------------------------
---------------------B-------
---------A-------------------

If Player B did a midair jump at the precise moment, it would cause his
opponent to fall downwards at a slow pace)
 

Enshoku

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The game has been out for less than 2 weeks, the meta game for brawl is still under development, and there have only been a handful of tournaments involving serious players/pros. Wouldn't it be reasonable to give it more time, let more ppl (especially pros) get the game/wii, then take things from there?
It doesn't matter who it is in the tournaments. Pros and joes make an equal difference in tournaments.
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

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Actually, an 'equal difference' doesn't make sense, and pros are the ones who bring the game to a higher level of play, through professional game-play, obviously. A Joe will play the same game forever.
 

Garde

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Honestly, tier lists are really just a measure of how good a character's properties are in comparison to the rest of the cast. In most fighting games, there are usually counter matches for every character, though it's not always the case. Basically, counter matches are where one character has an innate advantage over another due to basic properties about each of the characters (whether it's reach, speed, size, priority, etc. and these can work in strange synergistic ways that cannot always be seen immediately).

If a character's properties allow them to gain an advantage over a large portion of the cast, they will usually be considered higher on the tier list than a character with a lot of bad match ups. Tier lists ARE based off of tournament results, though, and an overall good character might have a bunch of HORRID matchups against some tourney favorites, and that can ultimately place a character lower on a tier list just due to their disadvantages against popular characters.

Ultimately, tier lists are based on character properties and perfect execution. Tier lists can have varying degrees of separation between tiers and even within tiers as to how good each character actually is. It really all depends on the game and how big of a difference the properties actually make. In some games, low tier and bottom tier characters are still playable in tournaments (and place in the top 10 of a 64 person tourney), in other games you wouldn't make it past the first match with a mid-tier character.

Sometimes a character is completely insurmountable and becomes part of a god tier or broken tier (like Akuma from Super Turbo) and is then banned from tournament play. Fortunately this hasn't happened in a while, but it was due to specific properties of that character (the air fireball), that gives them an undeniable advantage over characters (allowed for safe aerial approach and could keep pressuring indefinitely without the opponent being capable of retaliating). Fortunately Melee was not like this, and I doubt Brawl will end up like this, but there will be tiers. I don't know how big of a spectrum there will be between top and bottom tier, but there will be tiers.
 

BANSHI

Smash Cadet
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tiers mean somebody is better than another

as far as i can see brawl is looking really balanced so far

there will not be tiers
 

RBinator

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tiers mean somebody is better than another

as far as i can see brawl is looking really balanced so far

there will not be tiers
It's not quite that simple. A character won't always do better against every one below them. This has been explained in depth within this thread.

At the moment it looks really balanced, but in the months and years to come, this balance might not be what it seems.

As long as people play this game competitively and there are differences among the characters (which there are), there will be tiers, no matter how small or big the gap is.
 

Enshoku

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Actually, an 'equal difference' doesn't make sense, and pros are the ones who bring the game to a higher level of play, through professional game-play, obviously. A Joe will play the same game forever.
equal difference is actually a correct usage. If the joes stay the same, and yoshi wins 62% of all the tournaments , then it's obvious yoshi has talent. I'll re-say what I said before, in tournament results, being a "pro" does not matter. Skill level does not matter in tournament results because if enough test subjects are available, skill becomes a small anomaly, considering a large part of the community's skill IS recorded via tournaments.
 

OddCrow

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tiers mean somebody is better than another

as far as i can see brawl is looking really balanced so far

there will not be tiers
/read the thread

1st off, tiers do NOT mean that
Yeah, as YOU can see, some characters will do better than others
there WILL be tiers for any game where there is more than 1 character
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

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equal difference is actually a correct usage. If the joes stay the same, and yoshi wins 62% of all the tournaments , then it's obvious yoshi has talent. I'll re-say what I said before, in tournament results, being a "pro" does not matter. Skill level does not matter in tournament results because if enough test subjects are available, skill becomes a small anomaly, considering a large part of the community's skill IS recorded via tournaments.
It might just be me, but this is not making any sense.

What I'm saying is that professional players are the ones who come up with new strategies and play-styles. A casual does not seek improvement and will keep doing the same things.

And no, the term 'equal difference' just doesn't make sense, regardless of the cotext of your following sentance. If something is 'equal,' there can not be a 'difference.' It's like saying "a tiny giant." I'm just saying that the term itself is awkward. Douchery, perhaps, but I still felt it should be adressed.

I think understand what your talking about - the results only. But tiers simply aren't based only on results.
 

-Mars-

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i personally am looking forward to having more than just a few characters in the tournaments. In melee you had: fox, falco, marth, peach, sheik, captain falcon, sometimes mario, and occasionally a ice climber. Brawl tournaments i think will have some 15-20 characters in the tournaments.
 

Enshoku

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It might just be me, but this is not making any sense.

What I'm saying is that professional players are the ones who come up with new strategies and play-styles. A casual does not seek improvement and will keep doing the same things.

And no, the term 'equal difference' just doesn't make sense, regardless of the cotext of your following sentance. If something is 'equal,' there can not be a 'difference.' It's like saying "a tiny giant." I'm just saying that the term itself is awkward. Douchery, perhaps, but I still felt it should be adressed.

I think understand what your talking about - the results only. But tiers simply aren't based only on results.
I suppose equal and differ are opposites by design, just hit one with a thesaurus and leave it be I suppose.

My point was exactly that skill has no application in tournament results. I know that a meta-game must evolve as well, and that is partially skill dependent.
 

tense

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The tiers came around because of the metagame. Falco, Fox, Marth, and Sheik were not inherently better than any other character, but because of how players played the game, using them proved advantageous statistically. Give Brawl a year and it will have tiers just like Melee, although most likely the metagame will be entirely different, so a lot of the old faves from Melee might find themselves near the bottom. It happened with the change from 64 to Melee.
 

ShadowLink84

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The tiers came around because of the metagame. Falco, Fox, Marth, and Sheik were not inherently better than any other character, but because of how players played the game, using them proved advantageous statistically. Give Brawl a year and it will have tiers just like Melee, although most likely the metagame will be entirely different, so a lot of the old faves from Melee might find themselves near the bottom. It happened with the change from 64 to Melee.
So Fox,Falco,Mart, and Sheik are not inherently better than
Link, young Link, Roy, Bowser, Mario,Luigi oh and my favorite, Pichu?
 

One_With_Sumthing

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You obviously do not know what the meaning of the word "Tier List" is. Tier lists exist for all games (fighter or not). The only way for a game to not have a tierlist would to have all of the characters be exactly the same.
Do you know the game starcraft?
Are there tiers for the 3 different races? [Which are, by the way, very different]
 

tense

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So Fox,Falco,Mart, and Sheik are not inherently better than
Link, young Link, Roy, Bowser, Mario,Luigi oh and my favorite, Pichu?
lol You might have a point with Pichu there.

But seriously, no they're not. Situation: Marth starts being the winner of every match in a tournament, to the point that everyone else hates Marth users. Someone comes up with a way to counter a major Marth strategy with Mewtwo. Suddenly, the tiers do a major flip.

I'm not saying that this situation is likely. Far from it, but the fact is that tiers based on the metagame don't reflect any inherent attributes of the characters at all (not directly, at least). They portray how often people tend to win with them.

But you may be right about Pichu; he always was a bit of a lost cause.
 

Fletch

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Too bad Brawl is looking to be way more imbalanced than Melee... The original post fails pretty hard.
 

Radical Dreamer

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Enlighten me: Who is Brawl's Pichu or Mewtwo? Who is Brawl's Fox, Sheik or Marth?
Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf are all WAY worse than Pichu and Mewtwo in Melee. Pichu and Mewtwo had elaborate combos, mobility, potent techchasing, effective edgeguarding, and ways of countering higher tier characters. On the other end, Toon Link says hi.
Do you know the game starcraft?
Are there tiers for the 3 different races? [Which are, by the way, very different]
Yes, there are.
 

Fletch

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Enlighten me: Who is Brawl's Pichu or Mewtwo? Who is Brawl's Fox, Sheik or Marth?
Read the tier list discussion, but Brawl's mechanics cater to camping too much, and make characters such as Toon Link, Pit, Snake, and Olimar way better than the rest of the cast.
 

tense

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lol You might have a point with Pichu there.

But seriously, no they're not. Situation: Marth starts being the winner of every match in a tournament, to the point that everyone else hates Marth users. Someone comes up with a way to counter a major Marth strategy with Mewtwo. Suddenly, the tiers do a major flip.

I'm not saying that this situation is likely. Far from it, but the fact is that tiers based on the metagame don't reflect any inherent attributes of the characters at all (not directly, at least). They portray how often people tend to win with them.

But you may be right about Pichu; he always was a bit of a lost cause.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but I figured out why Pichu sucks: he's a miscarriage. You get Pichu by taking a mother Pikachu's egg from it and instead of letting it gestate under a mother's warm and tender care, you hatch it by bouncing it around as you walk. So Pichu sucks because he's like that almost-aborted fetus form That's My Bush, and if you don't know what that is, you can look on Youtube if you're interested for some reason.
 

-Linko-

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Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf are all WAY worse than Pichu and Mewtwo in Melee. Pichu and Mewtwo had elaborate combos, mobility, potent techchasing, effective edgeguarding, and ways of countering higher tier characters. On the other end, Toon Link says hi.
They had all that after 7 years of playing the game. Pichu and Mewtwo just plain sucked after a month of playing the game. Ganondorf and Falcon don't suck that much.

On the other end, Toon Link's proyectiles are so slow that can be powershielded by anyone, he lacks in range for his non-proyectile attacks, and his strength is just way inferior to Melee Fox' Sheik's or Marth's.
 

Radical Dreamer

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Both Ganondorf and Falcon suck that much, and Sonic is even worse. These characters have virtually no potential compared to Pichu and Mewtwo.
 

Tark

Smash Rookie
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Main: Yoshi, Marth, Falco, Fox, Sonic.

brawl is bottom tier, suck my balls noobs
I have 5 great characters and I am the best 1V1 player ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They call me the 1v1 Master and the yoshi and you are gay master:embarrass:embarrass
 
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