Why 3.5 is Good For Squirtle

[Daftatt]

I know on the surface it looks like squirtle got some significant nerfs, while true, they don't make him a "worse character" in 3.5. Let's take a closer look at this changelog.

Tlts
-Up Tilt
--IASA moved up, frame 22 -> 18.
--Hitboxes cleaned up to match animation closer. Squirtle hops slightly higher to match previous reach.
--Damage and knockback reduced. Damage 7 -> 6, KBG 110 -> 100.
--Trajectory tweaked slightly, angle 89 -> 86.
-Crawl Tilt
--Hitbox reduced.

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Shell-shift momentum glitch corrected.
-Up Smash
--Cleaned up pillar hitboxes to match graphics closer.
-Down Smash
--Hitboxes reduced to match animation and graphics closer.

Aerials
-Down Aerials
--Hitboxes cleaned up to match animation closer.
--Final hit trajectory lowered, angle 80 -> 67.

Specials
-Forward Special (Withdraw)
--Removed Turnaround
--Removed Jump
--Homogenized smash and tilt speeds.
--Withdraw maximum grounded duration reduced, 140 -> 60 frames.
--Withdraw cancel can now grab ledges.
--Aqua Jet
---Aqua Jet can only be initiated by making contact with a target during startup (checked on frame 5) and holding B.
---Aqua Jet is now fully steerable.
---Aqua Jet height gain slightly increased.
---Removed Aqua Jet startup, frame 3 -> 1. Weak hitbox lingers +4 frames.
---Aqua Jet hitboxes enlarged.
-Up Special (Waterfall)
--Grounded startup reduced by 5 frames.
--Endlag increased by 5 frames. Increases reverse ledgegrab window.
--Waterfall angling disabled after Squirtle reaches the apex.
--Final hit trajectory raised, angle 67 -> 83.
--Linking hitbox now repeats every five frames until final hit. Damage of linking hits reduced to 1.
--Linking hitbox knockback tweaked. 100/100 weight dependent set knockback changed to 110/100 and 80/100 weight dependent set knockback.
--Hitlag and SDI modifiers of non-linking hitboxes homogenized to 1. Linking hits have 0.8X hitlag, and 0.7/1X SDI.
-Down Special (Bubble)
--Aerial stall increased by 45% and limited to once per airtime.
--Aerial Bubble hitboxes raised and cleaned up to match graphics closer.
--Trajectory of aerial Bubble raised as hitbox travels. Angle 0 -> 0/25/361.

Others
-Air mobility increased and short hop height decreased.
--Short hop Vertical Momentum 2.15 -> 2
--Air mobility A 0.04 -> 0.08
--Air mobility b 0.04 -> 0.02
-Slightly reduced tech movement during first bounce.
-Pivot
--Light armor removed.
--Hitbox reduced.
--Active frames trimmed, 6-12 -> 9-12.
-Jab1
--Jab 2 interrupt starts 1 frame sooner.
-Jab2
--Jab 3 interrupt starts 2 frames sooner.
-Added Final Smash

So, first off. Up-tilt was tweaked for good and bad but it's mostly a nerf. Squirtle now moves his hurtboxes up more as he does the move, so while it's still a great aerial stuff for someone above you it's not as safe. It's also slightly eaiser to get out of because of the trajectory shift, but trades off by comboing into itself its faster now. So up-throw up-tilt works about just as well for early percentage pile-on.

Crawl Tilt: ehh, what can I say, hitbox is smaller so less of a poke. Not really a big deal, but you have to space it more smartly now, small nerf.

F-smash: no crazy momentum glitches anymore, kind of sad, this was a cool trick with squirtle particualry when you hydropivot-forwardsmash towards the opponent at stupid speeds. But honestly, that was uberjank, and while I'm sad I can't abuse it plus b-reversal to go under stages now, it ain't no thing really. Big nerf.

U-smash: doesn't go as high, but really not a significant change since those hitboxes were incredibly weak to begin with.

D-smash: It's hitboxes were pulled in closer together, which means less range, but it's actually better for hydroplaning now, opponents won't be able to CC as easily from the furthest hitbox. So, just barely a nerf.

Dair: hitboxes pulled in, but the tail hitbox is still intangible, and thereby is still amazing for stuffing literally everybody's recovery. It sends opponents out more sideways now which is actually better for comboing. All in all a kind of neither a buff or nerf.

Withdraw: Okay this is the big one, let's take a look at why withdraw was changed. We had an incredibly fast moving hitbox that was both burst movement on the air and ground, and safe on shield, and combod into fair/nair/bair literally 100% of the time, and almost ALWAYS forced an edgeguard if you hit them at higher percents.

A lot of squirtle players, and I do mean a LOT, spammed this move incessantly. If they dodged your first hit you could usually just hairpin turn and hit them from behind. This move, was flatout dumb. It discouraged use of squirtle's other movement tools (which were actually better movement tools to begin with), it was really frustrating to hit and deal with in general.

This change simply made you have to actually aim it at the person or get punished, which SHOULD be the case for it's use, and you can no longer use it to safely speed around the stage. It's almost like we have to wavedash and use shellshifting ATs now. If you're complaining now about the withdraw nerf affecting how you play squirtle, then honestly you were using withdraw too much in 3.0. So a nerf? Yes. But one that encourages users to get better with the character and use different tools, as well as forces you to be smarter with your approaches. Plus you can sweetspot to ledge now with it.

AQUAJET: OMG OMG OMG, I know yall thinking this is a nerf, and it is a RECOVERY nerf, because the simple fact was that squirtle should not have a quick reactionary escape (with a hitbox) out of withdraw. He shouldn't be able to withdraw down towards the stage for recovery, then as soon as his opponent got too close just Aquajet over him to a platform or whatever. The dynamic between squirtle recovering and the opponent edgeguarding was skewed heavily in favor of squirtle because of aquajet, and now that is fixed.

ON THE FLIP SIDE. AQUAJET IS FRAME 1. FRAME FREAKING 1. It has a bigger hitbox, but requires you to be on top of your opponent when you trigger it. Squirtle now has a super badass aerial skillshot that can kill oh so easily off the top. Up-throw to AQUAJET KILL. Up-air to AQUAJET KILL. This skill adds new hype to squirtle's air game. Sure you could try and aquajet people before, but you would usually fly off to your death in special fall (that has been fixed thank god). I love this change, through sick reads and tight positioning aquajet may be one of squirtle's best new tools.

Waterfall: What do you want me to say it's a recovery nerf, welcome to 3.5. At least it feels super zippy now, and due to the new trajectory it kills off the top much better. Squirtle is going to be a terror of the skies even more now honestly (with up-air still having his intangible tail safely swing above him). You can't DI/ASDI/SDI out of it as easily, but that's because the hitboxes don't lead as far in front of him. So overall a nerf, but at least mario can't cape it so damn easily now.

Bubble: Definitely nerfed crazy hard for offstage gimps (or onstage gimps, which were too safe anyways). However, because they hitboxes have been raised it's actually a much more potent onstage rushdown. I'm thinking short hop slingjump b-turnaround bubble here. The fact you can't poke with it from as high isn't really that big a deal because damn near everything traded with it anyways, also because it hits the opponent only when squirtle is closer, it's going to lead into followups more consistently, and tech chases are going to be easier to react to (because squirtle should already be on the ground by the time they tech roll). So it's a nerf yeah, but onstage it's still his neutral shattering supermove that we all love.

Now to the nitty gritty. Air mobility increased, it's hard to tell but definitely there. This is a buff for sure. It's easier to slinjump into Dair and stop yourself in midair now, so it's less of a forced crossup, and you don't have to space it so immaculately.

Short hop lowered, THANK GOD. This is actually really great, all too often if you tried to bair or nair from short hop you would overshoot your opponent (as in be to far above him) unless you got the timing exactly after jumpsquat finished. The ever amazing crossup shorthop slingjump bair now connects much more reliably, same with nair although that isn't a crossup.

Pivot/Shellshift: Light armor removed. GOOD. I'm sorry, squirtle is damn near the fastest character in the game and one of the smallest. HE DID NOT NEED ARMOR ON THIS MOVE, SIMPLE FACT.

As far as the shellshift hitbox. HUGE NERF. This is actually the biggest nerf for squirtle in 3.5. It no longer pokes constantly (hitbox shrunk a lot) and the hitbox lasts only half as long. The good thing is that all the combos you got out of this you can still do, such as SS into U-smash, SS into grab, SS into nair... SS into SS (OVER AND OVER). So this nerf didn't reduce the utility of the move, just makes you space more accurately for it. So you can still spam it in neutral don't worry, but just be more careful, and remember when going in with it you're a lot less safe.

Jab now connects better, thats a buff.

All in all 3.5 is going to be a great release for squirtle. His ultradeep offstage game is still intact, and with the recovery nerf it's going to be more potent than ever. All the annoying things (besides his height/slipperyness) that EVERYONE you fought constantly johned over are gone. But hydroplaning (hydrograb is still so damn safe) and his incredible movement are still intact (IMO his wavedash feels even better now), Going forward, playing squirtle is going to take more finesse, accuracy, and strategy than before (well, winning with him that is). So nerfs? Oh yeah, but every nerf is going to push players to play more smartly, to use his ATs, to master his movement. 3.5 is going to make us all better squirtle players... Unless you stop playing him because withdraw was nerfed, boohoo I feel no sympathy for you

 

[jaedong]

Dude, 3.5 blows for squirtle. His recovery took a big hit when because they removed aquajet. You are pretty limited to using Up B as his only recovery option. I do like that you can grab the ledge with withdraw cancel, but i dont think that quite makes up for it. His withdraw as a recovery option is too predictable and easily punished at this point. Also, his wallstick is wack now, its pretty pointless to even have since his walljump is wack.

The changes they made to withdraw are a huge nerf, and although I dont really use the move much as an approach, its gonna hurt without a doubt.

And the thing that really makes me the most sad is that they changed the aerial bubble. That small tweak makes it SO much worse. He just sits there hanging in mid air. If the opponent techs away, its pretty much a clean get away no matter what.

His approach options are really cut down in 3.5, it was always hard enough to get in on an opponent and now its that much harder. And what really infuriated me was that the goddamn watergun was unchanged. This move could have so much potential.

3.5 squirtle is a major buzzkill. He's a pretty middle of the row character, and they nerfed him across the board. I can't think of a single buff to counteract all the nerfs...I guess no one in the backroom was lookin after the little guy on this one.

 

[Burnsy]

Daftatt, you didn't make any mention of the biggest nerfs to come to this character: those that were made to his turnrun's hitbox, or as the changelog calls it, his "pivot".

It was cut down in size (i've heard by about 33% dont know if that still holds true)
It was halved in active frames
It lost its light armor

This was one of Squirtles most critical options from neutral for keeping momentum and building pressure. Although it may have been uncermoniously dumped at the bottom of the "other" section, take care to not ignore these nerfs everyone. They are very important, much more so than small silly things like losing f-smashes wack momentum properties or other minor tweaks (read: PMDT codeword for nerfs) to moves like Daftatt was mentioning above.

Taking out wallcling jump seems unnecessary when his recovery has already been nerfed in so many ways, but that in particular I find too early to judge. I think if the walljump was better it might still be worth actually using, but since the wall jump after the cling sucks, its seems like it will make it into more like a recovery timing mixup that's just too telegraphed and vulnerable to be useful. I've never once had an opponent complain to be about the old wallcling though, even though I was VERY consistent in it's use.

People were too attached to side-b and they needed a wake up call, so changes to it don't bother me.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

I know on the surface it looks like squirtle got some significant buffs, but that's really not the case. Let's take a closer look at this changelog.



So, first off. Up-tilt was tweaked for good and bad but it's mostly a nerf. Squirtle now moves his hurtboxes up more as he does the move, so while it's still a great aerial stuff for someone above you it's not as safe. It's also slightly eaiser to get out of because of the trajectory shift, but trades off by comboing into itself its faster now. So up-throw up-tilt works about just as well for early percentage pile-on.

Crawl Tilt: ehh, what can I say, hitbox is smaller so less of a poke. Not really a big deal, but you have to space it more smartly now, small nerf.

F-smash: no crazy momentum glitches anymore, kind of sad, this was a cool trick with squirtle particualry when you hydropivot-forwardsmash towards the opponent at stupid speeds. But honestly, that was uberjank, and while I'm sad I can't abuse it plus b-reversal to go under stages now, it ain't no thing really.

U-smash: doesn't go as high, but really not a significant change since those hitboxes were incredibly weak to begin with.

D-smash: It's hitboxes were pulled in closer together, which means less range, but it's actually better for hydroplaning now, opponents won't be able to CC as easily from the furthest hitbox.

Unless you're being sarcastic (in which case, you're laying it on pretty thin and I'm not really getting it) I don't really see much here that makes 3.5 "good" for Squirtle. This entire post seems more like "c'mon guys it's not THAT bad." But let's be real, Squirtle got nerfed a pretty decent amount. Most of it is pretty minor - even the withdraw change isn't a HUGE deal - but it's still pretty bad. The new Aquajet seems like it might have some potential, but other than that I went from being really hype about this patch to now trying to be positive and not really succeeding.

I guess I'm mostly upset because I don't understand why. Look, if Squirtle were winning majors, was unstoppable, beasting at a high level, then I could understand. But he really wasn't. He was pretty much lower mid tier. I'd really like if someone from the PMDT could swing by and explain their rationale behind the changes. I just wanna understand where they were coming from, for better or worse.

 

[CranberryGod]

My only problems that I have with 3.5 Squirlte are the changes to bubble and d smash. I liked the angle bubble was already at, and taking away the ability to gimp with it is really annoying in certain matchups. And while d smash might be better for hydroplaning, the range nerf makes it way harder to use for anything else, namely tech-chasing. With withdraw not being able to turn around, d smash was going to be squirtles next best tech-chasing option, but with a range nerf, it makes it way harder to do so. I would've been perfectly fine with the withdraw/aqua jet changes, but the rest of these just don't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Daftatt]

I guess I'm mostly upset because I don't understand why. Look, if Squirtle were winning majors, was unstoppable, beasting at a high level, then I could understand. But he really wasn't. He was pretty much lower mid tier. I'd really like if someone from the PMDT could swing by and explain their rationale behind the changes. I just wanna understand where they were coming from, for better or worse.

You can't think of it like that, it wasn't because he was overpowered. It was because the design of his moveset actually encouraged sloppy low level play. All the ATs that made him great almost NO ONE used because they would just withdraw everywhere. Nearly half of all the squirtle players I ever saw play barely utilized wavedash for movement. To be frank, squirtle's most common playstyle was lame, really really lame. This is an attempt to push players towards a more dynamic, exciting, and honestly "Melee" way of playing him.

 

[Daftatt]

With withdraw not being able to turn around, d smash was going to be squirtles next best tech-chasing option,

umm....
Squirtle's best tech chase option is the same one he had in 3.0, wavedash up next to them and shield/grab. Or hydrograb.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

You can't think of it like that, it wasn't because he was overpowered. It was because the design of his moveset actually encouraged sloppy low level play. All the ATs that made him great almost NO ONE used because they would just withdraw everywhere. Nearly half of all the squirtle players I ever saw play barely utilized wavedash for movement. To be frank, squirtle's most common playstyle was lame, really really lame. This is an attempt to push players towards a more dynamic, exciting, and honestly "Melee" way of playing him.

Yeah, actually thinking about it more, I've kinda switched my opinion of the changes. The increased aerial mobility and lowered shorthop do help his game quite a bit. The new bubble angle could be good, but I don't know for sure yet. I've had some time to process these things a bit, and I don't think that these are for sure awful changes. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where the metagame takes us.

 

[Gryvvin]

I have to agree with Daftatt on this one, sure there were a lot of changes that seem negetive but most of them come with a positive flip-side and none of them are character breaking. My rundown of what I think the more major changes are:

Withdraw;
I was never a fan of using withdraw turnaround anyway, it always feels like a worse option than just cancelling the move anyway... way too unsafe in almost all situations, though the jump was nice if only to stop it from being too easy to react to with a SH dair from certain characters.

Utilt+Bubble changes;
The uptilt and bubble changes I feel will take a little getting used to but it's hard to say whether they're truly nerfs or buffs at this point, either way I don't think they really limit any of squirtles' options (aside from maybe reducing bubbles gimp power) so nothing big lost or gained here.

Turnaround;
The turn around nerf is easily the thing I see making the biggest negetive impact for me, sure I barely even remembered the move had armour most of the time but the tighter timing and hitbox will hurt against opponents with better spacing.

AquaJet;
The big change is Aqua jet, it's had a complete overhaul from great recovery mixup to potentially fantastic kill move, only time will tell but to be honest this one change alone COULD be what future generations of squirtle players see as what made the little guy relevant, or it could be useless. It all depends on how we can combo into it and at what percents it can kill (which from what I've seen so far is promising.)

And finally +Air mobility... Real hard to argue with this, though it may screw with my spacing a tad in the short term.

 

[jaedong]

You can't think of it like that, it wasn't because he was overpowered. It was because the design of his moveset actually encouraged sloppy low level play. All the ATs that made him great almost NO ONE used because they would just withdraw everywhere. Nearly half of all the squirtle players I ever saw play barely utilized wavedash for movement. To be frank, squirtle's most common playstyle was lame, really really lame. This is an attempt to push players towards a more dynamic, exciting, and honestly "Melee" way of playing him.

While I agree with this in theory, I think its execution was pretty "sloppy and lame" and you are trying pretty hard to defend them. To say things like "well they shortened its range which is a nerf, but its easier to follow up if you hit with it" makes for a really bad argument. IF is a huge word. Range is king in this game. Combo's are worthless if you can't open your opponent up. So maybe shellslinging and zipping around against a bunch of noobs in your local tourney is workin for you, but against a high level player that out ranges you, I'd love to know how you are going to get in.

 

[cheesylard]

I don't care about anything other than the AquaJet removal. Hell, I even applaud the side-B no turnaround nerf. But the AquaJet is a huge nono. That was completely unnecessary. I'm really disappointed with that change.

I understand that Squirtle's recovery was kind of broken. Something needed to be removed. But not that. They had, like, 20 different options here. What I personally think they should have removed was the hitbox at the end of his up-B which made it pretty much impossible for anyone to edgeguard once the Squirtle player knows how to sweetspot it correctly. Like, honestly.... that hitbox is only there to prevent edgeguarding.

Now it's a LOT harder for Squirtle to edgeguard effectively. AquaJet was basically the equivalent of Fox or Falco's side-B when edgeguarding someone, and now that's completely gone. And for no reason other than making the game slower paced. All that change did was now Squirtle has to drop down below and up-B so he isn't punished after an edgeguard. Yawn.

 

[Gryvvin]

I understand that Squirtle's recovery was kind of broken. Something needed to be removed. But not that. They had, like, 20 different options here. What I personally think they should have removed was the hitbox at the end of his up-B which made it pretty much impossible for anyone to edgeguard once the Squirtle player knows how to sweetspot it correctly. Like, honestly.... that hitbox is only there to prevent edgeguarding.

Well they did give squirtle another recovery in the form of ledge grab from withdraw, and if they allowed for both withdraw ledgegrab and aquajet recoveries he'd be basically impossible to edgeguard anyway. So assuming they saw good reason to allow squirtle to side B to ledge the removal of aquajet was the smart decision. As far as having UP B's last hitbox only usable to prevent edge guards goes, some people actually use it to kill off the top of the stage.... not sure how the changes effect that right now but it is a viable option.

 

[cocy965]

If the goal was to make squirtle less janky to play against and make players who use him play smarter (with all his tech), then that goal was achieved. However they also managed to increase the skillcap of the character significantly, without even giving his outplay potential any buffs. He isn't a better character, he's just a weaker version of himself that people will lose with even faster if they have a really mindless playstyle.

If part of his kit made him brainless and the people who played him used no effort then I guess it deserves nerfs, likewise if parts of his kit go against some of the design philosophies of the pmdt, then he deserves a nerf. However, the brainlessness of his kit never even helped him win anything, nor did his broken recovery abilities or some disjointed hitbox.

PMDT nerfed the character, so now when people win with him at a local or anything they can defend themselves saying "I played this character who is hard to play and I played him and won with my skill as opposed to gimmicks." However by not giving squirtle any significant buffs to counteract the harsh nerfs he got, I doubt people are going to be placing at any high level events with him, no one did before anyway.

Is 3.5 good for squirtle? Well itll maybe let people satisfy their ego's more when winning games with him, but it'll also make it even harder for him to win, so thats debatable I guess.

 

[cheesylard]

Well they did give squirtle another recovery in the form of ledge grab from withdraw, and if they allowed for both withdraw ledgegrab and aquajet recoveries he'd be basically impossible to edgeguard anyway. So assuming they saw good reason to allow squirtle to side B to ledge the removal of aquajet was the smart decision. As far as having UP B's last hitbox only usable to prevent edge guards goes, some people actually use it to kill off the top of the stage.... not sure how the changes effect that right now but it is a viable option.

I've been maining Squirtle since 2.6. And Squirtle was not impossible to edgeguard with Aquajet. Yes, it was hard, and it required a bit of reading but it definitely was not impossible once you get enough practice against him.

This update pretty much sucked all of the fun out of the character. I understand that Squirtle's recovery needed to be nerfed, but it was nerfed in the completely wrong way. His recovery as it stands now is a lot slower and less skill intensive than his recovery in earlier versions (read: less fun). Like, instead of getting back onto the stage with his AquaJet and getting right back into the fight, he has to dip down, use his up-B and sweet spot the edge in order to get back. It basically creates this huge pause in the game where both people are basically waiting the recovery out that you don't see in Melee. I thought that's what they were trying to fix in this version.

Also, I think the thing I hate most about the update is how AquaJet is INSTANTLY used once you side-B while touching another character. This almost completely destroys any combo potential I had with that move. Instead of sending them sideways where I could follow up, it now sends them upward. And as a killing move it takes way less skill and is way less risky than it was before.

The reason why I picked up the character has been completely axed in this version. I relied on AquaJet a ton in 2.6 and 3.0-3.02. I have to now completely change my playstyle in order to get good with him again. Unless if I discover something new and exciting about this updated character I will no longer be maining him.

 

[Gryvvin]

I contended that the combination of aquajet and side B to ledge would be nigh impossible to edgeguard, not that aquajet alone was impossible, simply go to sweetspot the ledge with side B and press a if they move to edgehog or throw out a low hitbox.

As far as having combo issues with withdraw goes as long as you tap B quickly enough (have your finger leave the button in under 5 frames) you should still be able to get the normal withdraw from close up. If you mained squirtle purely for withdraw I feel sorry for you as the nerfs were aimed primarily at that particular playstyle but the truth is he was never all that viable when played using withdraw and aquajet liberally, he just sorta became a worse sonic. All this update really did to that end was make it obvious.

 

[cheesylard]

I contended that the combination of aquajet and side B to ledge would be nigh impossible to edgeguard, not that aquajet alone was impossible, simply go to sweetspot the ledge with side B and press a if they move to edgehog or throw out a low hitbox.

As far as having combo issues with withdraw goes as long as you tap B quickly enough (have your finger leave the button in under 5 frames) you should still be able to get the normal withdraw from close up. If you mained squirtle purely for withdraw I feel sorry for you as the nerfs were aimed primarily at that particular playstyle but the truth is he was never all that viable when played using withdraw and aquajet liberally, he just sorta became a worse sonic. All this update really did to that end was make it obvious.

Oh, I was not aware of the possibility of using withdraw while still inside of another character, thanks.

And to reiterate I have no objection to the withdraw nerf. I was talking about AquaJet as a recovery option.

 

[MrAzureKun]

When I first saw the changes to withdraw I was really sad.
I had only just started maining squirtle and what withdraw and aqua-jet gave options for were essentially why I even played the character. He had mix ups he had style and he was fun to play. And from an opponents perspective its easy to deal with withdraw. Tether grabs make short work of it and so did waiting it out. The landing lag was more than punishable.

Taking away the jump I feel was a good move. This limits some of its use which is hurtful but it wasn't all that useful in the long run.

Taking away the turn around I feel is a horrible decision only brought about because of the changes to aqua-jet. Squirtle was essentially a trickster character who trips you around and does what he can to you while he has the chance. He had his own style which incorporated his signature gimmick being the turn around hit-box. Taking that away from his best combo starter is like asking a baseball player to hit a home run with a wet pool noodle.

The changes to aqua-jet I feel are negative only because it inhibits what the player can do with squirtle. If I try to withdraw and my opponent happens to be too close I have no options aside from aqua-jetting. Before you could activate it yourself which gave you options. Now that was taken away from us. I'm pro choice.

I have every intention to join the Squad but forgive me if I plead to bring back the old withdraw/aqua-jet. They made squirtle who he was. Now he's too bland.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

I disagree

If the goal was to make squirtle less janky to play against and make players who use him play smarter (with all his tech), then that goal was achieved. However they also managed to increase the skillcap of the character significantly, without even giving his outplay potential any buffs. He isn't a better character, he's just a weaker version of himself that people will lose with even faster if they have a really mindless playstyle.

If part of his kit made him brainless and the people who played him used no effort then I guess it deserves nerfs, likewise if parts of his kit go against some of the design philosophies of the pmdt, then he deserves a nerf. However, the brainlessness of his kit never even helped him win anything, nor did his broken recovery abilities or some disjointed hitbox.

PMDT nerfed the character, so now when people win with him at a local or anything they can defend themselves saying "I played this character who is hard to play and I played him and won with my skill as opposed to gimmicks." However by not giving squirtle any significant buffs to counteract the harsh nerfs he got, I doubt people are going to be placing at any high level events with him, no one did before anyway.

Is 3.5 good for squirtle? Well itll maybe let people satisfy their ego's more when winning games with him, but it'll also make it even harder for him to win, so thats debatable I guess.

I disagree because the way they changed withdraw limits his mobility

 

[cocy965]

What does that have to do with my post? lol

 

[Thetoymaker787]

What does that have to do with my post? lol

Sorry dude I replied to the wrong post. I was trying toget in ten posts fast so I could post a link. My bad

 

[PlateProp]

Everyone be all like "Oh no, Squirtle is ruined!"

He isint. He's better than ****ing ever, but everyone here just wants to ***** about how his "best"(read: Worst) movement option was taken away.

Kind of funny how only the people who actually know how to play Squirtle say 3.5 is godlike, eh?

 

[jaedong]

So, after taking some perspective and looking around at the rest of the cast, I can honestly say I've calmed down quite a bit about 3.5 nerfs to squirtle. In all honesty, the nerfs aren't going to change my play style much at all, and most of the other brawl characters got pretty shafted. The more minor changes they made will take some getting used to, but honestly things could be much worse for the squirtle squad. (looking at the diddy mains cryin has helped my transition to this point tremendously)

I'm very ok with what they've done to withdraw, and the new aquajet will just take time to learn to incorporate, but I'm sure I'll learn to like it. And the more I play the more I'm liking the aerial mobility.

So, I'm not gonna be a hipster *** and say "OMG 3.5 squirtle is GODLIKE" because it's definitely an overall nerf. However, I will say that relative to what I'm seein across the board, we're gonna be just fine. A lot of the stuff they changed I can understand, seeing how many nerfs other characters have taken.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

So, after taking some perspective and looking around at the rest of the cast, I can honestly say I've calmed down quite a bit about 3.5 nerfs to squirtle. In all honesty, the nerfs aren't going to change my play style much at all, and most of the other brawl characters got pretty shafted. The more minor changes they made will take some getting used to, but honestly things could be much worse for the squirtle squad. (looking at the diddy mains cryin has helped my transition to this point tremendously)

I'm very ok with what they've done to withdraw, and the new aquajet will just take time to learn to incorporate, but I'm sure I'll learn to like it. And the more I play the more I'm liking the aerial mobility.

So, I'm not gonna be a hipster *** and say "OMG 3.5 squirtle is GODLIKE" because it's definitely an overall nerf. However, I will say that relative to what I'm seein across the board, we're gonna be just fine. A lot of the stuff they changed I can understand, seeing how many nerfs other characters have taken.

I completely agree. I do think, in a sense, it's a net buff (they've nerfed everyone else so hard, while Squirtle is mostly the same) but I do think Squirtle's in a very good place with some solid quality of life buffs in the form of a shorter shorthop and more aerial mobility. And who knows, maybe Aquajet is amazing and we need to figure out how to use it?

 

[Burnsy]

He isn't mostly he same, I think that's just a bit of wishful thinking. He did not get a net buff lol, he recieved a large number of serious nerfs, a few very minor tweaks, and couple slight improvements to his physics. But being in denial about that fact that he's different does you no good.

In fact, people who say he seems "almost the same" are really exposing themselves, in my opinion, as someone who doesn't make proper use of shellshift, wallcling, and other key tools that were affected by these changes. Or they just aren't aware of these things yet because they are less experienced with the character.

Also Daft, aquajet isn't frame one you doofus. It says that it checks for if you are holding b on frame 5, so it would activate on fame 6. There's a big difference, just because it activates immediately doesn't mean those 5 frames you are in withdraw don't matter. This effectively makes 5 frames the "minimum" startup for aquajet any time you want to use it right away since the hitbox can be out no earlier than frame 6.

If you're gonna try to "explain" these changes to us at least be accurate. Calling it a 1 frame move is very misleading.

 

[dirtboy345]

It's a good thing you understand Burnsy, I'm not saying it's the end of the road for squirtle but these changes are definitely not good. The only problem is there are obviously people who aren't very good saying that as well because of withdraw so then that's all anyone says about people saying squirtle is nerfed

 

[cocy965]

To build off of Burnsy's point. Have you guys tried using pivots into smash attacks now? The window for hitting that is much harder, and it wasn't ever an easy technique to pull off.

While it's debatable (I'm not gonna claim it either way since I haven't researched the cast enough yet) that his nerfs weren't as bad as some of the other characters, the general consensus was that squirtle was never a particularly strong character.

Take this as a stupid example (assign numerical strengths to characters in a fighting game), but I'll use it to prove a point. Lets say the power level of mewtwo was 100, diddy was 90, and squirtle was 60 during 3.02. After 3.5, mewtwo's power level got reduced by 20, diddys by 15, and squirtles by 5. Squirtle got nerfed the least, but still has a paltry 55 vs mewtwos 80 and Diddy's 75.

So those numbers are 100% made up, but the reason why I used that example is thats sort of what happened here. Everyone got nerfed, but squirtle was never in a position that he needed the kinds of nerfs he's gotten, and people have gone from saying "Oh this is a buff", to "oh everyone else got nerfed more, so this is a buff!" Given his weaknesses before, that isn't a buff LOL. The only good thing coming from this patch is that we might see more spacies being played (sheik as well), and imo thats a good match up for squirtle althought maybe not with the withdraw tweaks. However that isnt a buff to squirtle thats a meta-game shift as a result of nerfs while squirtle got nerfed as well.

Lastly just to talk about this:

"Kind of funny how only the people who actually know how to play Squirtle say 3.5 is godlike, eh?"

This line of thinking is wrong, because there is no one who actually knows how to play squirtle. No offense guys. I know nothing about you, and from my first impression everyone reading this thread is awesome since they are looking at squirtle, but we are all GARBAGE at this character. There isn't a squirtle anywhere in the top of the PR, and hell we don't even have squirtle players doing anything other than placing at locals. The most "famous" squirtle in jewchainz isn't an accurate representation of what the best has to offer, but the bottom line is that no one has become particularly adept at squirtle. So claiming that some people know how to play him better than others, and then going the extra mile to say that the players who supposedly "suck" at squirtle dont comprehend why he has received buffs is pretty fallacious.

/end rant

EDIT:

This is the last thing I'll post here, because I've made my point and I doubt my mind is gonna change. IMO squirtle still has the potential to perform at high-level events, but if that happens that wouldn't be because of the "net buff" the character got this patch, that would be because of the effort of hard working squirtle player(s). So lets stop (shell) slinging accusations at each other and calling each other bad and focus how to help this bizzare, cute little dude become a star. But if you want to choose a different main after the patch, I wouldn't blame you, we don't need you anyway :D.

 

[PlateProp]

To build off of Burnsy's point. Have you guys tried using pivots into smash attacks now? The window for hitting that is much harder, and it wasn't ever an easy technique to pull off.

While it's debatable (I'm not gonna claim it either way since I haven't researched the cast enough yet) that his nerfs weren't as bad as some of the other characters, the general consensus was that squirtle was never a particularly strong character.

Take this as a stupid example (assign numerical strengths to characters in a fighting game), but I'll use it to prove a point. Lets say the power level of mewtwo was 100, diddy was 90, and squirtle was 60 during 3.02. After 3.5, mewtwo's power level got reduced by 20, diddys by 15, and squirtles by 5. Squirtle got nerfed the least, but still has a paltry 55 vs mewtwos 80 and Diddy's 75.

So those numbers are 100% made up, but the reason why I used that example is thats sort of what happened here. Everyone got nerfed, but squirtle was never in a position that he needed the kinds of nerfs he's gotten, and people have gone from saying "Oh this is a buff", to "oh everyone else got nerfed more, so this is a buff!" Given his weaknesses before, that isn't a buff LOL. The only good thing coming from this patch is that we might see more spacies being played (sheik as well), and imo thats a good match up for squirtle althought maybe not with the withdraw tweaks. However that isnt a buff to squirtle thats a meta-game shift as a result of nerfs while squirtle got nerfed as well.

Lastly just to talk about this:

"Kind of funny how only the people who actually know how to play Squirtle say 3.5 is godlike, eh?"

This line of thinking is wrong, because there is no one who actually knows how to play squirtle. No offense guys. I know nothing about you, and from my first impression everyone reading this thread is awesome since they are looking at squirtle, but we are all GARBAGE at this character. There isn't a squirtle anywhere in the top of the PR, and hell we don't even have squirtle players doing anything other than placing at locals. The most "famous" squirtle in jewchainz isn't an accurate representation of what the best has to offer, but the bottom line is that no one has become particularly adept at squirtle. So claiming that some people know how to play him better than others, and then going the extra mile to say that the players who supposedly "suck" at squirtle dont comprehend why he has received buffs is pretty fallacious.

/end rant

LOL JEWCHAINZ

Jewchainz plays hella amish bro.

Seen Dad lately? Because he's a pretty accurate representation of how you should play Squirtle. Also, he placed 26th at LTC2. So yeah. That line of thinking isin't wrong, we DO know how to play the character.

He isn't mostly he same, I think that's just a bit of wishful thinking. He did not get a net buff lol, he recieved a large number of serious nerfs, a few very minor tweaks, and couple slight improvements to his physics. But being in denial about that fact that he's different does you no good.

In fact, people who say he seems "almost the same" are really exposing themselves, in my opinion, as someone who doesn't make proper use of shellshift, wallcling, and other key tools that were affected by these changes. Or they just aren't aware of these things yet because they are less experienced with the character.

Also Daft, aquajet isn't frame one you doofus. It says that it checks for if you are holding b on frame 5, so it would activate on fame 6. There's a big difference, just because it activates immediately doesn't mean those 5 frames you are in withdraw don't matter. This effectively makes 5 frames the "minimum" startup for aquajet any time you want to use it right away since the hitbox can be out no earlier than frame 6.

If you're gonna try to "explain" these changes to us at least be accurate. Calling it a 1 frame move is very misleading.

Not surprising that you would be one of those claiming Squirtle has been nerfed to hell.

 

[~Dad~]

1: Plate pls don't link my videos they are bad and no good.

2: Squirtle was definitely nerfed overall even though he's still slippery and fun as hell.

Several things that I utilized in my play constantly were removed or tweaked and no longer work.

3.5 Squirtman is a whole new Squirtman to get used to in some ways.


Now everybody make up and kiss.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

1: Plate pls don't link my videos they are bad and no good.

2: Squirtle was definitely nerfed overall even though he's still slippery and fun as hell.

Several things that I utilized in my play constantly were removed or tweaked and no longer work.

3.5 Squirtman is a whole new Squirtman to get used to in some ways.


Now everybody make up and kiss.

Our messiah Dad coming down from Oklahoma to bring peace to the land of the Squirts.

 

[jaedong]

Guys...bubble nerf is really really REALLY lame. It's easily the most frustrating thing, I have no range.

 

[didds]

Guys...bubble nerf is really really REALLY lame. It's easily the most frustrating thing, I have no range.

Start working on water gun is all I can say, it's going to take a healthy balance between the two moves to alleviate squirtle's range issues.

 

[dirtboy345]

Start working on water gun is all I can say, it's going to take a healthy balance between the two moves to alleviate squirtle's range issues.

I can't believe that watergun didn't get touched it any way, it's better uncharged than charged, what other move in the game is like that?

 

[didds]

I can't believe that watergun didn't get touched it any way, it's better uncharged than charged, what other move in the game is like that?

better for approach at least, it could be argued that charging is better for edgeguarding.
and there are a few moves that have merits to remaining uncharged, and it's usually speed: m2 shadowball, zss stun shot thingy, etc... watergun is def the best though

 

[dirtboy345]

better for approach at least, it could be argued that charging is better for edgeguarding.
and there are a few moves that have merits to remaining uncharged, and it's usually speed: m2 shadowball, zss stun shot thingy, etc... watergun is def the best though

Usually bubble, fair, or anything else is better for edgeguarding than watergun

 

[didds]

Usually bubble, fair, or anything else is better for edgeguarding than watergun

I agree, just wanted to point out an application of the charged gun

 

[Life]

Four relevant questions:

1. Are Squirtle's hard matchups still hard for Squirtle?
2. Are Squirtle's good matchups still good for Squirtle?
3. Does Squirtle have any new hard/easy matchups?
4. Out of the characters relevant to 1-3, which are the most important?

 

[dude it's raining]

Sorry, I don't have time to finish reading the thread, and this may have already been said, but I feel like the recovery nerfs are gonna help squirtle in the same way they'll help puff/sheik, especially with his aerial mobility. A retrained bubble is good enough.
And his shffl is so clean now!