Why 3.5 is bad for squirtle (+additional discussion)

[Thetoymaker787]

HE CANT TURN AROUND IN WITHDRAW OR USE AQUA JET!

I know some people dont use that move when playing squirtle but It can be used to keep combos going and to recover AND to run away if ya get scared. I like some of the changes. (Of course) but I have to totally change my strategy to play this game now.
I'm not a scrub though. I don't just side b back and forth but I do have to use it:-/ any one wanna convince the guys in charge of pm to change him back?

 

[MrAzureKun]

I'm all for bringing back the old withdraw (with some tweaks) but I'm not sure they way you explained your reasoning is really all that great? It felt a little... Idk, desperate?

 

[Thetoymaker787]

I'm all for bringing back the old withdraw (with some tweaks) but I'm not sure they way you explained your reasoning is really all that great? It felt a little... Idk, desperate?

I am desperate to be honest. I need to find a way to post a video of how I play squirtle. My combo usually goes withdraw to back air bubble withdraw back air more back airs and just keep hitting till they have enough damage to use fair or up air to up b for a kill. I'll try and find a way to post a video off my phone

 

[Thetoymaker787]

I'm all for bringing back the old withdraw (with some tweaks) but I'm not sure they way you explained your reasoning is really all that great? It felt a little... Idk, desperate?

Here is a 3.2 vid I took a couple weeks ago. Combo I'm talking about is at 1:50 if you wanna fast forward the video
http://youtu.be/JrhaZ9CtSCY

 

[Thetoymaker787]

This update limits squirtle to a single playstile that involves wave dashing and bubble beam primarily.

 

[-Se7en-]

Woah man, Shoutouts to that triple post. Just edit your first post from now on.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Here is a 3.2 vid I took a couple weeks ago. Combo I'm talking about is at 1:50 if you wanna fast forward the video
http://youtu.be/JrhaZ9CtSCY

Look, dude, I don't mean to sound too harsh, but that was a pretty scrubby combo that only worked because Lucas wasn't reacting properly. Withdraw is bad now, yes, but it was always bad. Believe me, I feel you; when I first read the changes I actually wondered if I was gonna keep playing Squirtle. But after reading Daftatt's post and having a chance to sit down and play him today, I can assure you Squirtle is alive and well.

Yeah, you no longer have withdraw as a mindless approach and followup, but you know what? That's a good thing. NO character should have a techchase as mindless as withdraw was. Yeah, it'll take some getting used to, and I definitely miss aquajet, but Squirtle still has excellent mobility, a superb offstage game, his recovery is still good, bubble still provides solid spacing and you know what? Withdraw STILL offers some followups. It's all good in the hood man. Just take some time to learn the changes.

 

[PlateProp]

Aqua jet is still in.

And it's better.

 

[Jamwa]

HE CANT TURN AROUND IN WITHDRAW OR USE AQUA JET!

I know some people dont use that move when playing squirtle but It can be used to keep combos going and to recover AND to run away if ya get scared. I like some of the changes. (Of course) but I have to totally change my strategy to play this game now.
I'm not a scrub though. I don't just side b back and forth but I do have to use it:-/ any one wanna convince the guys in charge of pm to change him back?

3.02 squirtle was bad for your brain
now you actually have to rely on being a good player
utilt was buffed (imo, better combos less disjoint same hitbox), aquajet kill power buffed, waterfall buffed, bubble buffed onstage, AERIAL MOBILITY BUFFED
i am not complaining at all.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Yeah I can kind of see what you guys mean, you can't just mindlessly combo with withdraw, and I can play the way your supposed to. With all the wave dashes and bubble beams ftilts and up tilts. But I don't want to.

I can kind of relate it to the pillar combo. That works pretty well and it's pretty mindless (in my oppinion) and you can just tech chase people with that. That's sure didn't get nerfed.

Also, although in that video Lucas didn't do a good job of getting out of the combo, it doesn't really matter if you can tech and shield because with 3.2 you can bounce of the shield and react. Or if they roll then you can still react.

With the new update I can still do that a little, but as soon as they roll then I could be headed to a bad place cause I can't turn. And it just makes me sad because now my movement options are limited to wave dashes for combos like every other charecter:-(

Also, Bouncing off stage with withdraw and then using aqua jet to sweet spot edge or slide past someone on stage was a great recovery option that doesn't work anymore.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Aqua jet is still in.

And it's better.

Debatable. I personally liked the old AJ better.
I'm not saying that the new one is bad but I liked the old one better.
I wish we could have the best of both worlds.

Also, Bouncing off stage with withdraw and then using aqua jet to sweet spot edge or slide past someone on stage was a great recovery option that doesn't work anymore.

THIS is why I miss the old AJ. I've had time to get to know the new Withdraw and understand why its there but man I miss the old AJ. In my opinion it was better because it offered more options which is always great. Now our only two recovery options are withdraw to grab ledge which is extremely unsafe and waterfall which is honestly too safe making it the only viable recovery if you're being edge-guarded.

If any devs see this, may I ask that you consider having both? An executable mediocre damage AJ and a jiggly style pop AJ?
That way we have the same options we do now and a few of the old options as well.

Of course this is asking for a lot but might as well ask I guess.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Debatable. I personally liked the old AJ better.
I'm not saying that the new one is bad but I liked the old one better.
I wish we could have the best of both worlds.


THIS is why I miss the old AJ. I've had time to get to know the new Withdraw and understand why its there but man I miss the old AJ. In my opinion it was better because it offered more options which is always great. Now our only two recovery options are withdraw to grab ledge which is extremely unsafe and waterfall which is honestly too safe making it the only viable recovery if you're being edge-guarded.

If any devs see this, may I ask that you consider having both? An executable mediocre damage AJ and a jiggly style pop AJ?
That way we have the same options we do now and a few of the old options as well.

Of course this is asking for a lot but might as well ask I guess.

That's not gonna happen. One of the goals in 3.5 was to weaken the recoveries of the entire cast. Squirtle got a big option taken away, but his recovery is still decent. Let's not beg PMDT for things they won't give us; let's just make the best of what we have (which is still pretty good to be honest.)

 

[Thetoymaker787]

I wouldn't mind begging. I know the goal was to even recoveries but some took HARD hits. Examples being peaches up distance, ditties over b, lucas massively decreased tether (a little would have been fine) and squirrels move of course. But yet they gave Gannon the ability to float

Even if they evened recoveries to make everyone a little more like the forbidden four, they didn't make everyone as powerful as them. Really giving everyone else a disadvantage.

I do think they made squirtle more powerful but at the cost of mobility that I would have preferred not to loose.

 

[Daftatt]

No, I'm sorry. Thetoymaker787 you are totally wrong in all your reasoning. You clearly aren't looking at the multitude of options squirtle has in every situation. There are still a ton of different ways to play him.

This goes for any player, Any failings you have using the character in 3.5 are purely failures on your part to create a dynamic strategy of play in 3.0X

I'm sorry, that sounds mean, but the whole forum here is freaking out and it's stupid. It's very clear who and who didn't know how to play the character adeptly in 3.0 with all these threads about not how he's ruined or how my playstyle doesn't work or whatever. You guys maybe need to consider that you weren't very good with the character to begin with before you start dictating and criticizing the nuances of his design and meta

 

[MrAzureKun]

That's not gonna happen. One of the goals in 3.5 was to weaken the recoveries of the entire cast. Squirtle got a big option taken away, but his recovery is still decent. Let's not beg PMDT for things they won't give us; let's just make the best of what we have (which is still pretty good to be honest.)

I guess maybe I just don't understand why they're nerfing all recoveries?
What was their goal?
IMHO it was really fun watching people get back to stage in clever ways using the options they had. Now it'll be a little TOO predictable. Most characters will have 2 recovery options which will get stale really quickly. 3.02 had some balancing problems sure but the basic feel of the characters was really nice.
But then again maybe they know something I don't? Or maybe they prefer predictability?

 

[Swooty]

Any failings you have using the character in 3.5 are purely failures on your part to create a dynamic strategy of play in 3.0X

Someone had to say it. This is putting it bluntly, but it's finally time that the Squirtles who don't understand the character have to make a choice, to learn how to utilize everything Squirtle can do, or to hop off and play someone else. If you miss side b, play Yoshi, it's the same braindead "Fling yourself at the enemy unsafely and hope they're bad enough to not punish"

There are plenty of guides on how to play him properly. If you're not playing him like a combination of Captain Falcon and Luigi with Bubbles, then you're not playing him to his full potential.

 

[HelloAxi]

Someone had to say it. This is putting it bluntly, but it's finally time that the Squirtles who don't understand the character have to make a choice, to learn how to utilize everything Squirtle can do, or to hop off and play someone else. If you miss side b, play Yoshi, it's the same braindead "Fling yourself at the enemy unsafely and hope they're bad enough to not punish"

There are plenty of guides on how to play him properly. If you're not playing him like a combination of Captain Falcon and Luigi with Bubbles, then you're not playing him to his full potential.

Playing him like a luigi captain falcon crossbreed is a single way to play him. With the withdraw stuff he has another cool trick that looks good. (Sh bubble doesn't look great. And ss doesn't look any more impressive than dacus)
If the way you are saying is bad truly is then why was it removed? To make the players better? That seems uncharacteristic of the dev team. I mean yoshis egg is still there like you said. Noobs love it. Withdraw turnaround was removed. It must have been a viable option for gameplay that pmbr deemed too good. Withdraw works as a wonderful tech chase tool. And it allows squirtle to harass opponents in a pretty cool looking way. I don't play squirtle but I loved the way he moved with withdraw turnaround when I played against them. First thing I said was "how the hell are you moving like this?" It has pretty similar inputs to pillaring with a spacie. And it's just as easy to escape imo. It looks a lot cooler than pillaring because it's new.
There shouldn't be a right way and wrong at to play with a character. Otherwise the meta won't grow.

 

[PlateProp]

Playing him like a luigi captain falcon crossbreed is a single way to play him. With the withdraw stuff he has another cool trick that looks good. (Sh bubble doesn't look great. And ss doesn't look any more impressive than dacus)
If the way you are saying is bad truly is then why was it removed? To make the players better? That seems uncharacteristic of the dev team. I mean yoshis egg is still there like you said. Noobs love it. Withdraw turnaround was removed. It must have been a viable option for gameplay that pmbr deemed too good. Withdraw works as a wonderful tech chase tool. And it allows squirtle to harass opponents in a pretty cool looking way. I don't play squirtle but I loved the way he moved with withdraw turnaround when I played against them. First thing I said was "how the hell are you moving like this?" It has pretty similar inputs to pillaring with a spacie. And it's just as easy to escape imo. It looks a lot cooler than pillaring because it's new.
There shouldn't be a right way and wrong at to play with a character. Otherwise the meta won't grow.

All of this is just so wrong

 

[HelloAxi]

Squirtles new recovery is bad too. I play peach. If they are below stage driving to use waterfall they are as good as dead. And all I have to do is bust out toad. Waterfall recovery is unsafe against anyone with a counter I believe. I know peach wrecks it. The squirtle I played agianst learned this quickly and and used aquajet more often. He was a lot safer with that as it either placed him behind me or he sweetspotted with not hit box for my counter to hit.

 

[HelloAxi]

All of this is just so wrong

care to explain?

 

[PlateProp]

Playing him like a luigi captain falcon crossbreed is a single way to play him. With the withdraw stuff he has another cool trick that looks good. (Sh bubble doesn't look great. And ss doesn't look any more impressive than dacus)
If the way you are saying is bad truly is then why was it removed? To make the players better? That seems uncharacteristic of the dev team. I mean yoshis egg is still there like you said. Noobs love it. Withdraw turnaround was removed. It must have been a viable option for gameplay that pmbr deemed too good. Withdraw works as a wonderful tech chase tool. And it allows squirtle to harass opponents in a pretty cool looking way. I don't play squirtle but I loved the way he moved with withdraw turnaround when I played against them. First thing I said was "how the hell are you moving like this?" It has pretty similar inputs to pillaring with a spacie. And it's just as easy to escape imo. It looks a lot cooler than pillaring because it's new.
There shouldn't be a right way and wrong at to play with a character. Otherwise the meta won't grow.

There are wrong ways to play characters? You dont go ******* around and try to play Ganon like a damn beat down character instead of a punish character. That **** wouldn't work at high level play.

Squirtles new recovery is bad too. I play peach. If they are below stage driving to use waterfall they are as good as dead. And all I have to do is bust out toad. Waterfall recovery is unsafe against anyone with a counter I believe. I know peach wrecks it. The squirtle I played agianst learned this quickly and and used aquajet more often. He was a lot safer with that as it either placed him behind me or he sweetspotted with not hit box for my counter to hit.

You must be playing a ****ty Squirtle becaus his new recovery is way better.

Also what's a Peach main doing in the Squirtle boards complaing about **** they know nothing of?

 

[MrAzureKun]

All of this is just so wrong

Just sort of saying "no you're wrong" is a horrible way to converse and help the community.
I am fully aware that maybe there's things I don't know but constructive criticism does not deem "lol you're bad git gud scrub" It just doesn't.
Please elaborate.

Edit: Thank you

 

[MrAzureKun]

That **** wouldn't work at high level play.

Regardless of whether it would "work" or not it shouldn't be discarded as a playstyle for that character.
Yes its a little casual to think like this but forcing people to play a specific way just because they're playing a character is horrible game design.

You play a character for the choices they give you not for the 1 single play style they promote.

 

[HelloAxi]

There are wrong ways to play characters? You dont go ****ing around and try to play Ganon like a damn beat down character instead of a punish character. That **** wouldn't work at high level play.


You must be playing a ****ty Squirtle becaus his new recovery is way better.

Also what's a Peach main doing in the Squirtle boards complaing about **** they know nothing of?

Okay I understand that there are wrong ways but if something is working in regional tournament level events it shouldn't be written off and definitely shouldn't be removed. The withdraw should be used as a combo tool, not a hopeful approach. The turnaround made it viable there. Now you have to wait for the move to totally end before doing anything pending it hits shield or a well timed dodge.
There isn't a wrong way to play a character, there are just ways that get better results. And the turnaround gets pretty good results. A squirtle I know went against some of the top guys in my state and he took sets from them when no one else could utilizing something they hadn't seen before in a squirtle. I'm fairly the certain the guy was ranked seventh in pm and 6th or something in melee. A cf main I believe.

 

[Thetoymaker787]

Regardless of whether it would "work" or not it shouldn't be discarded as a playstyle for that character.
Yes its a little casual to think like this but forcing people to play a specific way just because they're playing a character is horrible game design.

You play a character for the choices they give you not for the 1 single play style they promote.

I totally agree with this

 

[HelloAxi]

With the withdrawl the only time an approach would be viable with it is against lasers or other projectiles that enable camping (I'm talking about you, Link).
the light armor lets him get in and the turnaround allows him to the do a dash dance esque movement behind shield/dodge and get a hit in and start a combo. With the long endlag on single direction of approach that won't quite work.
Aside from that aside from going high or trying to crawl through most of it he has little options present.

 

[Daftatt]

I give up. Literally every good squirtle player has agreed that the changes were positive. If we can't help you we can't help you, just keep it in this thread please.

 

[MrAzureKun]

I give up. Literally every good squirtle player has agreed that the changes were positive. If we can't help you we can't help you, just keep it in this thread please.

I'm not complaining anymore, I've grown to the changes and will deal with them.
At this point I'm just stating opinion.
I prefer old squirtle's AJ.
Withdraw was abusable, now its not.
Wish he was a little more rounded out but he's more than playable.
Can't wait to get good with him.

 

[PlateProp]

Okay I understand that there are wrong ways but if something is working in regional tournament level events it shouldn't be written off and definitely shouldn't be removed. The withdraw should be used as a combo tool, not a hopeful approach. The turnaround made it viable there. Now you have to wait for the move to totally end before doing anything pending it hits shield or a well timed dodge.
There isn't a wrong way to play a character, there are just ways that get better results. And the turnaround gets pretty good results. A squirtle I know went against some of the top guys in my state and he took sets from them when no one else could utilizing something they hadn't seen before in a squirtle. I'm fairly the certain the guy was ranked seventh in pm and 6th or something in melee. A cf main I believe.

Please just stop, the more you talk, the more you reveal how little you actually know about Squirtle

 

[Swooty]

Playing him like a luigi captain falcon crossbreed is a single way to play him. With the withdraw stuff he has another cool trick that looks good. (Sh bubble doesn't look great. And ss doesn't look any more impressive than dacus)
If the way you are saying is bad truly is then why was it removed? To make the players better? That seems uncharacteristic of the dev team. I mean yoshis egg is still there like you said. Noobs love it. Withdraw turnaround was removed. It must have been a viable option for gameplay that pmbr deemed too good. Withdraw works as a wonderful tech chase tool. And it allows squirtle to harass opponents in a pretty cool looking way. I don't play squirtle but I loved the way he moved with withdraw turnaround when I played against them. First thing I said was "how the hell are you moving like this?" It has pretty similar inputs to pillaring with a spacie. And it's just as easy to escape imo. It looks a lot cooler than pillaring because it's new.
There shouldn't be a right way and wrong at to play with a character. Otherwise the meta won't grow.

What?? Withdraw was not a cool trick. Withdraw was the damn reason that every time I go on netplay, people whine about me playing Squirtle. It's why people make fun of us or think we play an easy character. PMDT removed it because it's not a good move and everyone used it cause it's a noobish move, and didn't reflect how Squirtle should be played. The nerfs for withdraw don't affect high level Squirtles, because using it in one direction for a tech chase was the only safe way to use it, and not being able to turn around doesn't change that.

The only real nerf we're all feeling was the lack of aqua jet recovery, but in light of everyone getting nerfed, I'd say Squirtle was improved compared to everyone else.

And of course there's a wrong way to play a character. Play rushdown with jigglypuff, try gimping with Yoshi. Sure if you do it it's super clutch but it's not at all viable, and will only work if the opponent is really bad.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

What Swooty said. I think you guys are missing the point. Withdraw wasn't nerfed because it was a good move or a good option. It was removed because it was brainless and stupidly good at it's one reliable - if niche - use, which was tech-chasing. Tech-chasing with the old withdraw, for a lot of matchups, was guaranteed, because Squirtle could turn around fast enough to react to wherever his opponent went. There was no skill, no thought, no counter play, just a mindless move.

 

[Swooty]

What Swooty said. I think you guys are missing the point. Withdraw wasn't nerfed because it was a good move or a good option. It was removed because it was brainless and stupidly good at it's one reliable - if niche - use, which was tech-chasing. Tech-chasing with the old withdraw, for a lot of matchups, was guaranteed, because Squirtle could turn around fast enough to react to wherever his opponent went. There was no skill, no thought, no counter play, just a mindless move.

Props for knowing what counter-play is. Finally someone else can see this from a game design perspective. Also, well said

 

[~Dad~]

EVERYBODY IS SO WRONG ABOUT SQUIRTLE ALL THE TIME OH MY GOD

 

[HelloAxi]

What Swooty said. I think you guys are missing the point. Withdraw wasn't nerfed because it was a good move or a good option. It was removed because it was brainless and stupidly good at it's one reliable - if niche - use, which was tech-chasing. Tech-chasing with the old withdraw, for a lot of matchups, was guaranteed, because Squirtle could turn around fast enough to react to wherever his opponent went. There was no skill, no thought, no counter play, just a mindless move.

Okay, I can see this. Swooty seemed to be saying it was a terrible option and that it shouldn't have been used, and if any squirtle player uses it they are terrible players. Strategic dominance dictates that it should be used if it's nearly always guaranteed.

Thank you for responding in a way that doesn't make you look like a total asshole, and more like a decent person. Between flame and "git gud" posts like these are pretty great.

 

[Burnsy]

I give up. Literally every good squirtle player has agreed that the changes were positive. If we can't help you we can't help you, just keep it in this thread please.

Excuse me?

 

[PlateProp]

Excuse me?

 

[~Dad~]

Couple of things:

his new recovery is way better.

This is actually, 100% factually incorrect.

I give up. Literally every good squirtle player has agreed that the changes were positive.

This is also incorrect, you and Burnsy butt heads a lot but I'll be damned if he isn't one of the best Squirtle players around, and he absolutely does not agree that the changes are positive. Many of the changes I don't agree with either.

The nerfs for withdraw don't affect high level Squirtles, because using it in one direction for a tech chase was the only safe way to use it, and not being able to turn around doesn't change that.

This is a huge oversimplification, at low levels of play withdraw was a stupid as hell move that got spammed yadda yadda yeah yeah we all know, Squirtle players suck.

Turnaround was useful at higher levels of play though, it could be used for extremely fast baits, or to cover roll options like in this gyf. (Watch when I have his back to the ledge, I double turn around in withdraw to cover any quick grounded advances and catch him trying to roll past me.)
https://gfycat.com/PhonyYellowBernesemountaindog



Also, you all are being huge dongs to each other. Quit being huge dongs.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Turnaround was useful at higher levels of play though, it could be used for extremely fast baits, or to cover roll options like in this gyf. (Watch when I have his back to the ledge, I double turn around in withdraw to cover any quick grounded advances and catch him trying to roll past me.)
https://gfycat.com/PhonyYellowBernesemountaindog



Also, you all are being huge dongs to each other. Quit being huge dongs.

God that was sexy. Sometimes I wish you were my dad.

 

[Swooty]

Excuse me?

Burnsy I'm just curious. What about Squirtle's changes do you think hit him the hardest? I feel like the shellshift hitbox reduction could be problematic but I have yet to see it affect my play by a huge degree (unless the shellshift ledge spike is gone)

For me the only thing that really slipped me up was the lack of a quick recovery, but I do genuinely feel that the new wavedash and lower short hop make up for it

God that was sexy. Sometimes I wish you were my dad.

Join the club

 

[Thetoymaker787]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks his withdraw move is still needed for keeping combos. I do think that new squirtle is good after playing with him a few hours. But I don't like the way I have to play now.