Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Kirby Dragons]

Oh, that's interesting, it says it negates any combat-related skills. I'm not sure what qualify as skills for some people though. BTW, munomario, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , and @Dryn , what do you guys think qualify as skills for purpose of Ike's Nihil skill? Skill (at least offensively) in fire emblems are non-basic attacks.
Here's somethings I think am certain qualify. Please weigh in:

1. Pokemon abilities
2. Shulk's talent arts
3. Shulks skills
4. Mario characters' power-ups and Pixls
5. Mario's badges
6. Kirby's Hypernova
7. Palutena's powers
8. Obviously skills of FE characters
9. Sonic's Chaos Emeralds, wisps and moves like Sonic Wind.
10. Pokemon's Mega Stones

I can't think of anythin else, but depending on how much Nihil covers, Ike might get a big boost.

I think skills should just apply to any power that someone possesses, but not items. That said, Ike is pretty powerful.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777 I think whether dodge rolls get invincibility depends on the roll. But what characters have invincible dodge roll on this roster?

I do agree that if there's a good reason for it, then dodge roll invincibility should be allowed (for instance, Rosalina/Palutena teleporting when they do it in Smash), but I don't think that we should allow someone to be invincible just because they're dodging an attack. I think it was something about Hyrule Warriors IIRC.

Oh, that's interesting, it says it negates any combat-related skills. I'm not sure what qualify as skills for some people though. BTW, munomario, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , and @Dryn , what do you guys think qualify as skills for purpose of Ike's Nihil skill? Skill (at least offensively) in fire emblems are non-basic attacks.
Here's somethings I think am certain qualify. Please weigh in:

1. Pokemon abilities
2. Shulk's talent arts
3. Shulks skills
4. Mario characters' power-ups and Pixls
5. Mario's badges
6. Kirby's Hypernova
7. Palutena's powers
8. Obviously skills of FE characters
9. Sonic's Chaos Emeralds, wisps and moves like Sonic Wind.
10. Pokemon's Mega Stones

I can't think of anythin else, but depending on how much Nihil covers, Ike might get a big boost.

I'm not sure what to make of this, to be honest. I think that in order to know what this would mean in this situation, we first need to be 100% clear on what it means in Fire Emblem. Are "skills" all attacks, or just more advanced ones (and if so, to what extent)? How long does it last? Is it used to block only the next skill the opponent uses? How long does it take to activate? Does it have limited uses? Et cetera, et cetera.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I think skills should just apply to any power that someone possesses, but not items. That said, Ike is pretty powerful.

But what if said item grants a skill, like Mario's badges or Sonic's emeralds?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

But what if said item grants a skill, like Mario's badges or Sonic's emeralds?

Skills granted by items shouldn't be included. Nihil can't be used on the effects of items in the FE games.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I do agree that if there's a good reason for it, then dodge roll invincibility should be allowed (for instance, Rosalina/Palutena teleporting when they do it in Smash), but I don't think that we should allow someone to be invincible just because they're dodging an attack. I think it was something about Hyrule Warriors IIRC.

I'm not sure what to make of this, to be honest. I think that in order to know what this would mean in this situation, we first need to be 100% clear on what it means in Fire Emblem. Are "skills" all attacks, or just more advanced ones (and if so, to what extent)? How long does it last? Is it used to block only the next skill the opponent uses? How long does it take to activate? Does it have limited uses? Et cetera, et cetera.

I addressed some of it in the post, but: skills are any non-basic attacks. Basically, advanced attacks. An example of skills would be: ability to strike 5 times at once (because it's beyond characters normal attacking speed in FE), adding damage received from last attack to damage dealt, ability to ignore defense, ability that boosts magic when attacking first, etc. I can list more if you or whoever likes.

It activates automatically, has no limits and blocks all skills for the whole battle.

Skills granted by items shouldn't be included. Nihil can't be used on the effects of items in the FE games.

Ok so Sonic's Emeralds and Wisps, Mario's power-ups, badges and pixls, Kirby's hypernova and pokemon's megastones are allowed. I'm thinking Sonic wind and any similar attack (like Hyper sonic's flash, if he were allowed) would be negated.

 

[Munomario777]

I addressed some of it in the post, but: skills are any non-basic attacks. Basically, advanced attacks. An example of skills would be: ability to strike 5 times at once (because it's beyond characters normal attacking speed in FE), adding damage received from last attack to damage dealt, ability to ignore defense, ability that boosts magic when attacking first, etc. I can list more if you or whoever likes.

It activates automatically, has no limits and blocks all skills for the whole battle.

I see. Nihil is a skill, and if it activates automatically and lasts for the duration of the match like you say, then does that apply to all skills, or just this particular one? If it does, then attacks shouldn't be blocked at all, since they usually don't activate automatically and for the whole match. In fact, attacks and skills are completely separate in the Fire Emblem series, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I see. Nihil is a skill, and if it activates automatically and lasts for the duration of the match like you say, then does that apply to all skills, or just this particular one? If it does, then attacks shouldn't be blocked at all, since they usually don't activate automatically and for the whole match. In fact, attacks and skills are completely separate in the Fire Emblem series, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't understand the your post except the last sentence.

As for the last sentence, no attacks and skills aren't completely separate, like I listed above, some skills come in the forms of attacks.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't understand the your post except the last sentence.

You said that Nihil activates automatically, lasts for the duration of the match, and such. Nihil is a Skill. Do the aforementioned properties apply to all Skills? If so, then it seems that Nihil would only apply to properties of characters that also have the aforementioned properties.

As for the last sentence, no attacks and skills aren't completely separate, like I listed above, some skills come in the forms of attacks.

Really? Because attacks and skills do seem to be rather separate.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Just because it's a minigame, that doesn't mean it's non-canon.

How is Popstar still in one piece than?

What do you think Kirby does in his free time?

Eat and Sleep like a baby?

I know how small Kirby is so how large is Popstar and what is it’s composition? It’s star like shape could also screw around with results.

Well certain enemies includes the final boss, so it it's not like it's only effective against weaklings. I'm not implying it should OHKO people here, just that it's very strong in said game.

Are we sure that the final boss isn’t allergic to it like werewolves are to silver? It sounds like it only OHKOs nebulous enemies(Bubbles, Sparks and Ghinis), so it likely wouldn’t be a game changer in this situation.

Oh, that's interesting, it says it negates any combat-related skills. I'm not sure what qualify as skills for some people though. BTW, munomario, @ Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , and @Dryn , what do you guys think qualify as skills for purpose of Ike's Nihil skill? Skill (at least offensively) in fire emblems are non-basic attacks.
Here's somethings I think am certain qualify. Please weigh in:

Nihil only blocks Skills from the user so skills from equipment should still work(Ex. Brave sword’s Adept effect). Nihil won’t block Skills that can activate outside of combat like Renewal and Celerity. I see the Mastery skills like Aether, Eclipse, Ire and Flare more like extensions of basic attacks that add more hits or bonus effects, so advanced attacks should be fine.

1. Pokemon abilities
2. Shulk's talent arts
3. Shulks skills
4. Mario characters' power-ups and Pixls
5. Mario's badges
6. Kirby's Hypernova
7. Palutena's powers
8. Obviously skills of FE characters
9. Sonic's Chaos Emeralds, wisps and moves like Sonic Wind.
10. Pokemon's Mega Stones

1. Case by Case basis.
2. I see Shield, Speed and Armor working because they are defensive in nature. Purge, Eater, and Cyclone look like advanced attacks. Buster, Eater, and Cyclone are Area of effect attacks and Nihil doesn’t provide any protection against Deghinsea, Lehran or Ashera’s own AOEs. It might negate the special effects of Slit Edge, Air Slash and Back Slash.
3. Only some of Shulk’s skills would be affected. Affected skills would be Double attack related(Adept), Stat boosts below 50% HP(Resolve), and a few others. Unaffected Skills would include Medium Equipment, Equipment Master, and every skill that is accounted for on the Status screen outside of battle(Includes assorted boosts to Armor, HP, Defenses, Ether and Agility).
4. Mario power-ups typically come from items and the Pixls seem to be a case by case basis.
5. Badges are equipment.
6. It’s a jacked up inhale, but I’d like to hear 2nd opinions(I don‘t want to risk getting banned by Kirby supporters).
7. Case by Case basis.
8. Agreed.
9. Nihil might work on some moves, but not the chaos emeralds or wisps.
10. Mega Stones are items.

For the Purposes of Monado Purge, who uses Auras(Super(Saiyan)Sonic, Lucario)?
For time related skills what time day or night?
How big must the Arena be for potential Arwing and Landmaster Combat?

 

[Nerdicon]

How is Popstar still in one piece than?

Because whoever's in charge of the continuity of the Kirby series is lazier than I am.

Eat and Sleep like a baby?

I always thought he committed mass murder and slept. Same thing I guess

I know how small Kirby is so how large is Popstar and what is it’s composition? It’s star like shape could also screw around with results.

Pop Star is about the size of Earth, but that doesn't matter here.

 

[Crystanium]

Disagreed. Part of what makes video games characters like Link so awesome is their ability to withstand attacks that would kill normal people outright. There are many games where even individual headshots come up short.

Then we should accept all game mechanics.

Disagreed.

So Pokemon like Blastoise should have unlimited hydro pump?

Except the Magic Armor doesn't melt. Ice melts at higher temperatures, while nothing really deactivates the Magic Armor.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying magic armor melts. I'm saying that having magic armor and the blue holy ring does not equate to immunity of up to 1,900+ centigrade.

I wouldn't say it's similar to medieval times.

The theme is. Link is supposed to be a knight and he's not the only knight in the Zeldaverse. We see knights throughout the Zeldaverse, including recent games, such as TP and SS.

Ignoring the obvious magic-related things that could never happen in medieval times (talking boats, bird people, etc. etc.),

People believed in magic in Medieval times. Talking boat? Argo. According to this site, "It had a magical talking prow provided by the goddess Athena, carved from a timber from Zeus's sacred grove at Dodona." Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule spoke through the prow of the red boat known as the King of Red Lions. Bird people? Surely you jest. Never heard of the Tengu?

there's also the Tingle Tuner (AKA Game Boy Advance), the Picto Box (AKA the instant camera, which didn't come around until the 1900s),

Cameras still existed long before that, though.

spotlights (in Forsaken Fortress), lasers and such (in the Tower of the Gods), and even mentions of sonar and radar (in the introduction to the Sunken Ships minigame).

The lighthouse in Windfall requires a flame. Considering this is how we see the lighthouse works, it's probable this is the same for the spotlights. I'm not sure how the lasers work. Animals have their own sonar.

Heck, even the official timeline suggests advanced technology by this point! In Skyward Sword (which is the first game chronologically), there's electric lighting, plumbing, automatic-flush toilets, pedal-powered electric generators, robots, an entire mining facility powered by electricity, the list goes on.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean the Zedaverse uses TNT, which is commonly used in the military. Let's assume Link's bombs use TNT, though. Will the yield demonstrate what's presented visually? I'll still assume the blast radius to be 7.112 meters. TNT has a velocity of 6,900 m/s. This means the time it would take to cover 7.112 m. would be 0.0010307246376812 seconds. One bomb would produce 1.96 kg. of TNT.

I wonder if the blast would have looked smaller, had the bombs been side-by-side the way you have the three bombs you set. Here's the actual explosion.

What I'm going to do is take the radius of that explosion and use gunpowder as the explosive. The way I'll do this is I'll use Link's height from WW and find out the distance from shoulder to shoulder. Then I will add the distance from one end to the next. After that, I'll determine the yield by using G. I. Taylor's calculation. So Link's height in pixels is 394. Say that's equal to 4'10", or 147.32 centimeters. From shoulder to shoulder, it's 77 px. This would be equal to 28.79 cm. (11.33 in.) Seems reasonable. The distance between Link's shoulders is difficult to get. I presume the thing sticking out on the top is Link's hat.

The distance here would need to be smaller than 77 px., too, considering the distance for my last calculation was bigger. Maybe I'll halve it. This gives me 38.5 px., but I'll round it to 39 px. I end up with 740 px. if I use the long way. This gives me 2831.605194805194808256 centimeters. I'll assume this is TNT, since you question me using black powder. That would result in 3.16 tons of TNT, or 396 kg. of TNT per bomb. It's doubtful this is the yield, however. An RPG doesn't even produce that. Oddly enough, using black powder increases this to 12.11 tons of TNT, or 1.51 tons per bomb. Yeah, I don't even believe that just looking at one bomb alone.

However, having gone back to my previous calculation from one bomb. I'm not sure how. It should be 191.95 grams of TNT if I have the radius correct. That would be equal to 1.54 kg. of TNT, which is under Samus' 1.82 kg. of TNT equivalent from the speed booster alone on the lowest end.

Do you have a video detailing this? That would be good to have when determining its fatality.

I don't. I dived off the bridge when playing OoT a long time ago to see what would happen. Link just has the same animation as if he jumped off a high spot and hurt his legs.

As for skills, I would regard skills as something that's learned or inherent. Mario's ability to ground-pound is a skill. Link's ability to use ending blow is a skill. Samus' ability to use concentration or crystal flash is a skill.

 

[Munomario777]

Then we should accept all game mechanics.

I think it should be a case-by-case deal.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying magic armor melts. I'm saying that having magic armor and the blue holy ring does not equate to immunity of up to 1,900+ centigrade.

You compared it to ice melting. I pointed out how the Magic Armor doesn't have an equivalent of ice melting. Ice : melting : : Magic Armor : nothing.

The theme is. Link is supposed to be a knight and he's not the only knight in the Zeldaverse. We see knights throughout the Zeldaverse, including recent games, such as TP and SS.

The theme does not dictate the available technology.

People believed in magic in Medieval times. Talking boat? Argo. According to this site, "It had a magical talking prow provided by the goddess Athena, carved from a timber from Zeus's sacred grove at Dodona." Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule spoke through the prow of the red boat known as the King of Red Lions. Bird people? Surely you jest. Never heard of the Tengu?

Believing in talking boats and riding in talking boats are two different things.

Cameras still existed long before that, though.

Ah, but we know for sure that this is specifically an instant camera. Why? Well, in Wind Waker HD, when you free Tingle, he gives you an item called a Tingle Bottle. You can write messages inside and send them out in the ocean to other players via Miiverse. Pretty neat, right? Well, this also has integration with the Picto Box. After snapping a picture, you can choose to put it in a Tingle Bottle message. No going to a place to develop the film or anything. There's even a full color version in the Picto Box Deluxe.

You don't seem to have responded to them having a Game Boy Advance, by the way (which wouldn't really fit in a medieval setting).

The lighthouse in Windfall requires a flame. Considering this is how we see the lighthouse works, it's probable this is the same for the spotlights. I'm not sure how the lasers work. Animals have their own sonar.

Good point about the light house and sonar. The lasers seem to indicate advanced technology (as well as, you know, the robots), and I don't believe that there are animals with proper radar.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean the Zedaverse uses TNT, which is commonly used in the military. Let's assume Link's bombs use TNT, though. Will the yield demonstrate what's presented visually? I'll still assume the blast radius to be 7.112 meters. TNT has a velocity of 6,900 m/s. This means the time it would take to cover 7.112 m. would be 0.0010307246376812 seconds. One bomb would produce 1.96 kg. of TNT.

So to be clear, this is based on the Jabun video (along with the other times that you say "one bomb")?

I wonder if the blast would have looked smaller, had the bombs been side-by-side the way you have the three bombs you set.

Perhaps, but since the bomb plants are at fixed positions (unless you pick them up and put them down again, but there might not be enough time to do that), it would be tough to tell.

Here's the actual explosion.

What I'm going to do is take the radius of that explosion and use gunpowder as the explosive. The way I'll do this is I'll use Link's height from WW and find out the distance from shoulder to shoulder. Then I will add the distance from one end to the next. After that, I'll determine the yield by using G. I. Taylor's calculation. So Link's height in pixels is 394. Say that's equal to 4'10", or 147.32 centimeters. From shoulder to shoulder, it's 77 px. This would be equal to 28.79 cm. (11.33 in.) Seems reasonable. The distance between Link's shoulders is difficult to get. I presume the thing sticking out on the top is Link's hat.

I can't see Link's hat anywhere. You could use that railing on the bottom for size reference if need be.

The distance here would need to be smaller than 77 px., too, considering the distance for my last calculation was bigger. Maybe I'll halve it. This gives me 38.5 px., but I'll round it to 39 px. I end up with 740 px. if I use the long way. This gives me 2831.605194805194808256 centimeters. I'll assume this is TNT, since you question me using black powder. That would result in 3.16 tons of TNT, or 396 kg. of TNT per bomb. It's doubtful this is the yield, however. An RPG doesn't even produce that. Oddly enough, using black powder increases this to 12.11 tons of TNT, or 1.51 tons per bomb. Yeah, I don't even believe that just looking at one bomb alone.

That does seem like a bit much, haha. Perhaps you could calculate one bomb and just multiply it? Here's another video for reference in that regard:

However, having gone back to my previous calculation from one bomb. I'm not sure how. It should be 191.95 grams of TNT if I have the radius correct. That would be equal to 1.54 kg. of TNT, which is under Samus' 1.82 kg. of TNT equivalent from the speed booster alone on the lowest end.

Seeing as how there was a large gap between Link and the bombs in that video, perhaps it would be best to redo it using an up-close comparison.

I don't. I dived off the bridge when playing OoT a long time ago to see what would happen. Link just has the same animation as if he jumped off a high spot and hurt his legs.

Ah, interesting. Head-first or leg-first?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

You said that Nihil activates automatically, lasts for the duration of the match, and such. Nihil is a Skill. Do the aforementioned properties apply to all Skills? If so, then it seems that Nihil would only apply to properties of characters that also have the aforementioned properties.

Really? Because attacks and skills do seem to be rather separate.

Oh ok I get it now. No, not all battle skills activate automatically. Some skills, occasionally called Trigger Skills, activate randomly based on your skill stat (like Astra). Others are passive only passive skills do. But Nihil blocks activation of any battle related skill. Something like Slow Burn (increases hit and avoid every turn) wouldn't be negated since it's always in effect, but something like Aether would since the only time it activates is in battle.

As for attacks and skills not being separate, let me try explaining it like this:

Lucina engages an enemy and attacks. Then the enemy attacks. Then on Lucina's next attack, her Astra skill activates (randomly activates based on skill%), which means instead of doing her basic attack she does say Astra, which lets her attack 5 times at half-power in a turn.
But if she were facing Ike, Nihil would keep it from ever activating. Got it?

Also, I don't believe it's possible for Link to dive head first in any Zelda games, so I'm presuming in Dryn's experiment it was leg first.

Are we sure that the final boss isn’t allergic to it like werewolves are to silver? It sounds like it only OHKOs nebulous enemies(Bubbles, Sparks and Ghinis), so it likely wouldn’t be a game changer in this situation.

Who knows, but I just said I don't think it would OHKO any on the roster.

Nihil only blocks Skills from the user so skills from equipment should still work(Ex. Brave sword’s Adept effect). Nihil won’t block Skills that can activate outside of combat like Renewal and Celerity. I see the Mastery skills like Aether, Eclipse, Ire and Flare more like extensions of basic attacks that add more hits or bonus effects, so advanced attacks should be fine.

Agreed on the first 2 sentences, but it would definitely work on Mastery skills so I'm sure advanced attacks would also be blocked.

responses in bold.

1. Case by Case basis. True
2. I see Shield, Speed and Armor working because they are defensive in nature. (Disagree, Nihil doesn't specify offensive skills, it says "battle skills") Purge, Eater, and Cyclone look like advanced attacks. Buster, Eater, and Cyclone are Area of effect attacks (addressed above) and Nihil doesn’t provide any protection against Deghinsea, Lehran or Ashera’s own AOEs. (what do you mean by AOEs? They have attacks that can hit multiple units at once? It might negate the special effects of Slit Edge, Air Slash and Back Slash. (at the minimum it would, at the max it would keep him from executing the moves period. I lean towards the latter)
3. Only some of Shulk’s skills would be affected. Affected skills would be Double attack related(Adept), Stat boosts below 50% HP(Resolve), and a few others. Unaffected Skills would include Medium Equipment, Equipment Master, and every skill that is accounted for on the Status screen outside of battle(Includes assorted boosts to Armor, HP, Defenses, Ether and Agility). Agreed
4. Mario power-ups typically come from items and the Pixls seem to be a case by case basis. If it doesn't affect items, it probably wouldn't affect any of these.
5. Badges are equipment. Disagree, since some give the ability to grant advanced attacks, so I feel those would be negated (like Quake Hammer)
6. It’s a jacked up inhale, but I’d like to hear 2nd opinions(I don‘t want to risk getting banned by Kirby supporters). It comes from an item, so no..
7. Case by Case basis. true
8. Agreed. true
9. Nihil might work on some moves, but not the chaos emeralds or wisps. Agreed
10. Mega Stones are items. k.

For the Purposes of Monado Purge, who uses Auras(Super(Saiyan)Sonic, Lucario)?
For time related skills what time day or night?
How big must the Arena be for potential Arwing and Landmaster Combat?

Just my opinion, but I don't think it would work on Super Sonic.
It's not important for 90% of the roster so we haven't discussed, but I'm assuming day time.
The arena is 10 miles by 10 miles.

Then we should accept all game mechanics.

I disagree, health systems aren't the same. For one, many of these characters aren't human. I know we've all agreed to ignore health bars except for gauging strengths of attacks, but otherwise I think we should honor health systems. If Mario can defy our laws of physics, who's to say he doesn't have superhuman endurance? Same for someone like Link. It's possible those Heart Containers provide a kind of energy barrier that allow him to survive attacks that would kill a normal person. DItto for Sonic's rings. Kirby's some eldritch abomination. Some characters should be subject to realistic damages like Little Mac, Captain Falcon, or Duck Hunt, but I don't think we should dismiss the durability of video game characters as game mechanics.

As for skills, I would regard skills as something that's learned or inherent. Mario's ability to ground-pound is a skill. Link's ability to use ending blow is a skill. Samus' ability to use concentration or crystal flash is a skill.

[/quote]
I forgot about Link's skill scrolls from MC and TP. Not sure Ground pound is a skill. I do think it should cancel any advanced attacks he can use because of badges.

 

[Munomario777]

Oh ok I get it now. No, not all battle skills activate automatically. Some skills, occasionally called Trigger Skills, activate randomly based on your skill stat (like Astra). Others are passive only passive skills do. But Nihil blocks activation of any battle related skill. Something like Slow Burn (increases hit and avoid every turn) wouldn't be negated since it's always in effect, but something like Aether would since the only time it activates is in battle.

If Trigger Skills activate randomly, isn't that automatic? Unless I'm missing something here, it seems like they're not activated by the player (or the character).

As for attacks and skills not being separate, let me try explaining it like this:

Lucina engages an enemy and attacks. Then the enemy attacks. Then on Lucina's next attack, her Astra skill activates (randomly activates based on skill%), which means instead of doing her basic attack she does say Astra, which lets her attack 5 times at half-power in a turn.
But if she were facing Ike, Nihil would keep it from ever activating. Got it?

I see. I think Nihil would work on most attacks/attributes that are either always active or activate randomly, but not most attacks.

Also, I don't believe it's possible for Link to dive head first in any Zelda games, so I'm presuming in Dryn's experiment it was leg first.

Okay, just making sure.

I disagree, health systems aren't the same. For one, many of these characters aren't human. I know we've all agreed to ignore health bars except for gauging strengths of attacks, but otherwise I think we should honor health systems. If Mario can defy our laws of physics, who's to say he doesn't have superhuman endurance? Same for someone like Link. It's possible those Heart Containers provide a kind of energy barrier that allow him to survive attacks that would kill a normal person. DItto for Sonic's rings. Kirby's some eldritch abomination. Some characters should be subject to realistic damages like Little Mac, Captain Falcon, or Duck Hunt, but I don't think we should dismiss the durability of video game characters as game mechanics.

Agreed. While it is technically a "game mechanic", I don't think that we should disregard anything based on that fact alone. When I think we should start doing so is when something is purely a game mechanic, and not an attribute of the character (such as invincibility frames). Since health bars are attributes of the character, I feel that normal ones should be translated into endurance (such as those in Pokemon), but certain ones should be taken as-is (such as Mario's power-ups, Sonic's Rings, etc.).

 

[Nerdicon]

I see. I think Nihil would work on most attacks/attributes that are either always active or activate randomly, but not most attacks.

So basically

• Bowser's passive invincibility
• Ganon's passive invincibility
• Any sort of effect chance or critical hit
• Pokémon abilities and select held items

Are all disabled when Ike has Nihil active

Also why isn't Hyrule Warriors being considered in this discussion? I've already said that I find it hypocritical that other characters get abilities from their alternate canons, but Link and co. don't.
@Dryn @ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ BaganSmashBros What are your reasons in believing that it has no place in this discussion?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So basically

• Bowser's passive invincibility
• Ganon's passive invincibility
• Any sort of effect chance or critical hit
• Pokémon abilities and select held items

Are all disabled when Ike has Nihil active

Also why isn't Hyrule Warriors being considered in this discussion? I've already said that I find it hypocritical that other characters get abilities from their alternate canons, but Link and co. don't.
@Dryn @ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ BaganSmashBros What are your reasons in believing that it has no place in this discussion?

I don't think Ganondorf and Bowser have any real invincibility. They are just that tough.

I wouldn't really say it has no place here. But it doesn't adds much either if you won't include Zelda and Sheik. And what kind of alternate canon is used for other characters? Metroid Prime isn't alternate canon in case that is part of it.

Missed a lot of rule changes here, i see...

 

[Nerdicon]

I don't think Ganondorf and Bowser have any real invincibility. They are just that tough.

I wouldn't really say it has no place here. But it doesn't adds much either if you won't include Zelda and Sheik. And what kind of alternate canon is used for other characters? Metroid Prime isn't alternate canon in case that is part of it.

Missed a lot of rule changes here, i see...

Bowser has the Star Rod from Paper Mario and Ganondorf has invincibility to all non-holy objects.

As for Hyrule Warriors, I said Link and co. as in Link and the other characters from the Zelda franchise. As for other examples of alternate canon there's

• Mario and Luigi
• Paper Mario
• Hyrule Warriors
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon
• Pokémon anime
• Kirby anime
• Kirby Air Ride
• Kirby minigames
• Sonic Battle
• Sonic Boom (plz no)

Are the ones I could mention off the top of my head

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Bowser has the Star Rod from Paper Mario and Ganondorf has invincibility to all non-holy objects.

As for Hyrule Warriors, I said Link and co. as in Link and the other characters from the Zelda franchise. As for other examples of alternate canon there's

• Mario and Luigi
• Paper Mario
• Hyrule Warriors
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon
• Pokémon anime
• Kirby anime
• Kirby Air Ride
• Kirby minigames
• Sonic Battle
• Sonic Boom (plz no)

Are the ones I could mention off the top of my head

Well, it doesn't matters much for all characters not named Sheik and Zelda since they can do pretty much same stuff in main games. Im not against that because those 2 can do next to nothing in main games.

I don't think there is an canon in Mario games. Everything else though (except for maybe Kirby minigames since those aren't even close to being canon since they are just minigames)...yeah.

 

[Munomario777]

So basically

• Bowser's passive invincibility
• Ganon's passive invincibility
• Any sort of effect chance or critical hit
• Pokémon abilities and select held items

Are all disabled when Ike has Nihil active

• I'm not sure. It's not passive; the Star Rod barrier is a result of him activating it mid-battle.
• Yup. Rangel is a holy sword if I'm not mistaken though, so it doesn't really matter that much.
• Yup.
• I'd say it depends on the ability.

Also why isn't Hyrule Warriors being considered in this discussion? I've already said that I find it hypocritical that other characters get abilities from their alternate canons, but Link and co. don't.
@Dryn @ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ BaganSmashBros What are your reasons in believing that it has no place in this discussion?

It's specifically stated to be non-canon to the Zelda series. I can't fully speak for Pokemon or Kirby (since I'm not too knowledgeable about those franchises), but I don't believe that something similar was stated for Right Back At Ya! and the Pokemon anime, was it?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

If Trigger Skills activate randomly, isn't that automatic? Unless I'm missing something here, it seems like they're not activated by the player (or the character).

Well, all the skills are automatic in the sense that players can't choose when to activate them.

I see. I think Nihil would work on most attacks/attributes that are either always active or activate randomly, but not most attacks.

See I think it's the opposite, I think it would work on anything considered an advanced techniques. In FE there is no such thing as PP, FP, BP, etc so if they let you activate skills at will, there'd be no reason NOT to. Because that's (advanced attacks/techniques) what skills are the equivalent of imo. Outside of the FE universe, it's hard to find a solid comparison but I think something like Link's Ending Blow in Twilight Princess (plus it's in a subset of things called hidden skills). I also think Sonic Wind applies since he can't use it normally and needs 40 rings to do so, which I think qualifies it as an advanced attack/skill.

Health system stuff.

Agreed.

So basically

• Bowser's passive invincibility
• Ganon's passive invincibility
• Any sort of effect chance or critical hit
• Pokémon abilities and select held items

Are all disabled when Ike has Nihil active

No, all skills in FE are automatic (i.e. not able to be selected by the player) but it's the passive skills that always work and (for the most part) have applications outside of combat that still work. Something like Dual Guard (10% increase your partner blocks and attack) would still work but something like Aether wouldn't. All items still work, although to be fair you can't use items in battle (that is to say once you've engaged a unit) in FE, but let's just assume they'd still work. So here's my educated guess what works:

1. Certain Pokemon abilities (ex: Pressure, which doubles PP usage, would work but Blaze, which activates whenever Fire-type Starters have 1/3 or less health and increase their damage would be negated.)
2. Shulk's talent arts
3. Certain Shulk skills
4. Mario's badges that grant him techniques like the quake badge (let's you cause earthquake with hammer) or Damage dodge (increases defense by one when you block an attack).
5. Palutena's powers like Mega Laser or Black Hole but excluding ones like teleport or confuse attack (next attack automatically confuses foe)
6. Obviously skills of FE characters
7. Sonic Wind.
8. Moves Link learns from skills
9. Samus's crystal flash and concentration

Also, no one (this obviously excludes you muno) responded to my Star Rod question so I'll ask again: Should Star Rod be able to grant any wish like it says it can do in the game, or just be limited to what was seen? Directed at @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Dryn .

 

[Munomario777]

Well, all the skills are automatic in the sense that players can't choose when to activate them.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

See I think it's the opposite, I think it would work on anything considered an advanced techniques. In FE there is no such thing as PP, FP, BP, etc so if they let you activate skills at will, there'd be no reason NOT to. Because that's (advanced attacks/techniques) what skills are the equivalent of imo. Outside of the FE universe, it's hard to find a solid comparison but I think something like Link's Ending Blow in Twilight Princess (plus it's in a subset of things called hidden skills). I also think Sonic Wind applies since he can't use it normally and needs 40 rings to do so, which I think qualifies it as an advanced attack/skill.

Whether it's for balance reasons or not, Skills are attacks/attributes/etc. that activate either constantly or randomly. Skills aren't just any "advanced techniques"; they're a specific subset of techniques that the user cannot choose when or when not to activate them. Nihil doesn't block attacks that are initiated voluntarily in the games, so it shouldn't here.

Agreed.

Glad we're on the same page.

 

[Nerdicon]

It's specifically stated to be non-canon to the Zelda series. I can't fully speak for Pokemon or Kirby (since I'm not too knowledgeable about those franchises), but I don't believe that something similar was stated for Right Back At Ya! and the Pokemon anime, was it?

If something is not a part of the main canon than it is non-canon by definition. In this case, anything other than the main canon is non-canon and in your eyes should not be represented here. But plenty of things in this discussion are from non-canon games or alternate canons. So non-canon = alternate canon, if I had a hierarchy for alternate canons I would say non-canon games > other media > Smash

 

[Nerdicon]

Also, no one (this obviously excludes you muno) responded to my Star Rod question so I'll ask again: Should Star Rod be able to grant any wish like it says it can do in the game, or just be limited to what was seen? Directed at @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Dryn .

If it's an ability of the character that doesn't contradict anything, why not?

 

[Munomario777]

If something is not a part of the main canon than it is non-canon by definition. In this case, anything other than the main canon is non-canon and in your eyes should not be represented here. But plenty of things in this discussion are from non-canon games or alternate canons. So non-canon = alternate canon, if I had a hierarchy for alternate canons I would say non-canon games > other media > Smash

Hyrule Warriors was stated by Aonuma to be non-canon to the Zelda series. Have the creators of Kirby or Pokemon stated that those respective animes are also non-canon to their respective series?

If it's an ability of the character that doesn't contradict anything, why not?

Because it's hinted at that it needs external power to do its highest level of wish granting. Case in point, the Power Platform (a special arena that fuels Bowser and the Star Rod's power) increases the Star Rod's capabilities (the barrier is more resilient, the attacks are stronger, there's an attack now that Bowser didn't use in the previous round, etc. etc.). This is backed up by the fact that Bowser didn't simply wish Mario out of existence instead of battling him directly (or at least wished for something more to aid him in the fight).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

@ ShadowLBlue

Also, no one (this obviously excludes you muno) responded to my Star Rod question so I'll ask again: Should Star Rod be able to grant any wish like it says it can do in the game, or just be limited to what was seen? Directed at @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Dryn .

It should be able to grant any wish.

 

[Crystanium]

I think it should be a case-by-case deal.

I think so, too. I'm just making a point.

You compared it to ice melting. I pointed out how the Magic Armor doesn't have an equivalent of ice melting. Ice : melting : : Magic Armor : nothing.

No, no, no. I demonstrated that adding ice to ice does not mean it has a lower melting point. This whole thing started because you thought we should add the magic armor with the blue holy ring so Link could withstand 1,900+ centigrade. I've been here showing why I don't think it works that way. My last example before he ice example was the one with reinforced carbon-carbon, which I think made a great argument from analogy.

The theme does not dictate the available technology.

I think it's a more reasonable approach, however, until we do see examples of technology that function similarly to ours in this day and age. In a fantasy theme, I'm going to expect fantasy things and a time period set in the past.

Believing in talking boats and riding in talking boats are two different things.

That's irrelevant when people in the past believed it or experienced it. People in the past believed in fantastic things we'd call imaginary today. Some still experience seeing or hearing angels or gods today. It's an objective thing to them.

Ah, but we know for sure that this is specifically an instant camera. Why? Well, in Wind Waker HD, when you free Tingle, he gives you an item called a Tingle Bottle. You can write messages inside and send them out in the ocean to other players via Miiverse. Pretty neat, right? Well, this also has integration with the Picto Box. After snapping a picture, you can choose to put it in a Tingle Bottle message. No going to a place to develop the film or anything. There's even a full color version in the Picto Box Deluxe.

Yeah, but considering the technology to have colored pictures requires a fairy of some sort where the Great Deku Tree is located. I don't know how the technology works in the Zeldaverse, but that much I do know.

You don't seem to have responded to them having a Game Boy Advance, by the way (which wouldn't really fit in a medieval setting).

That's because the GBA is an added feature.

Good point about the light house and sonar. The lasers seem to indicate advanced technology (as well as, you know, the robots), and I don't believe that there are animals with proper radar.

Well, it looks like there were automata in the past. The only advanced thing from a beamos is its laser. (I don't even know if that word is ever used to describe what they fire. I just presume it's one because of what Fi says.) The way beamos' are portrayed in OoT/MM seem to suggest they have actual eyes, since smoke irritates them.

So to be clear, this is based on the Jabun video (along with the other times that you say "one bomb")?

I used the video concerning Jabun because the distance seemed about similar to the distance between Samus and the super missile explosion.

Perhaps, but since the bomb plants are at fixed positions (unless you pick them up and put them down again, but there might not be enough time to do that), it would be tough to tell.

I understand.

I can't see Link's hat anywhere. You could use that railing on the bottom for size reference if need be.

The explosion isn't a perfect sphere, so the radius isn't exact. I went with the longer side because I wanted to see what the yield would be if I chose that distance. I also did it to avoid being called out on trying to limit Link.

That does seem like a bit much, haha. Perhaps you could calculate one bomb and just multiply it? Here's another video for reference in that regard:

Here's an image of the explosion.

Funny how Link doesn't even fly from the shock wave. So, anyway, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take those pointy areas of the explosion into consideration because that causes problems. I could just try circling the image and then take Link's height to compare. Ignoring Link's hat and starting off with his hair, Link stands at 86 pixels. Using the free form selection, I tried tracing a circle. It's not perfect, so this will need to be an approximation. I did remove those pointy parts and traced to where the inward pointy part comes in contact with the circular shape. I will be going the long way.

So the radius of the explosion should be 414 px. Link's height was presumed to be 147.32 centimeters tall. This would mean the blast radius is 7.0919162790697674076 meters. The explosive velocity for black powder is 1,350 m/s. This means it takes only 0.005253271317829457339 seconds for the explosion to cover this distance. This results in 796,332,473.07 joules (796 megajoules), or 190.33 kilograms of TNT. Multiply that by 8 and you have an equivalent of 1.52 tons of TNT.

Seeing as how there was a large gap between Link and the bombs in that video, perhaps it would be best to redo it using an up-close comparison.

I think the last video you provided offered better results.

Ah, interesting. Head-first or leg-first?

Head first when he dives. The animation shows him with his knees bent as he groans in pain.

I disagree, health systems aren't the same. For one, many of these characters aren't human. I know we've all agreed to ignore health bars except for gauging strengths of attacks, but otherwise I think we should honor health systems. If Mario can defy our laws of physics, who's to say he doesn't have superhuman endurance? Same for someone like Link. It's possible those Heart Containers provide a kind of energy barrier that allow him to survive attacks that would kill a normal person. DItto for Sonic's rings. Kirby's some eldritch abomination. Some characters should be subject to realistic damages like Little Mac, Captain Falcon, or Duck Hunt, but I don't think we should dismiss the durability of video game characters as game mechanics.

I really don't think we should accept all game mechanics. I was making a point. It's quite clear from Hyrule Historia that force in the Zeldaverse is "the breath of life itself". That's what it says verbatim. I'm really not sure about Mario. Considering bullet bills can kill him and his vulnerability to sharp objects, I'd say he's pretty human with the exception of being able to withstand blunt force, which seems to be the case for most characters.

Also why isn't Hyrule Warriors being considered in this discussion? I've already said that I find it hypocritical that other characters get abilities from their alternate canons, but Link and co. don't.
@Dryn @ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ BaganSmashBros What are your reasons in believing that it has no place in this discussion?

It's not canon. That's my reason. I don't even agree with alternate canon for other characters, either, so I'm not being hypocritical. I suppose what we know of Impa, we could attribute to Sheik, considering she was trained by Impa. I'd be up for that if anyone else is.

lso, no one (this obviously excludes you muno) responded to my Star Rod question so I'll ask again: Should Star Rod be able to grant any wish like it says it can do in the game, or just be limited to what was seen? Directed at @ Nerdicon , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Kirby Dragons , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @Dryn .

The Star Rod should be allowed to grant any wish within Bowser's mentality. For example, Bowser never wished Mario to cease to exist, so he's not going to do that.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Whether it's for balance reasons or not, Skills are attacks/attributes/etc. that activate either constantly or randomly. Skills aren't just any "advanced techniques"; they're a specific subset of techniques that the user cannot choose when or when not to activate them. Nihil doesn't block attacks that are initiated voluntarily in the games, so it shouldn't here.

Well my point is you cant initiate any skills voluntarily but I see you're point. Skills in FE don't translate cleanly to other games, so I say we just vote on it and move on. I don't care enough to debate it since it's so ambiguous.

I really don't think we should accept all game mechanics. I was making a point. It's quite clear from Hyrule Historia that force in the Zeldaverse is "the breath of life itself". That's what it says verbatim. I'm really not sure about Mario. Considering bullet bills can kill him and his vulnerability to sharp objects, I'd say he's pretty human with the exception of being able to withstand blunt force, which seems to be the case for most characters.

I knew you exaggerating about that. And it's not like Mario dies quicker from a bullet bill than vs other attacks, so that's why I disagree on him only having human durability. He can be struck by lightning, burnt, crushed...I think his durability is pretty super human.

It's not canon. That's my reason. I don't even agree with alternate canon for other characters, either, so I'm not being hypocritical. I suppose what we know of Impa, we could attribute to Sheik, considering she was trained by Impa. I'd be up for that if anyone else is.

I agree on Impa, but I don't recall her having any abilities besides that vanishing powder in OoT.

The Star Rod should be allowed to grant any wish within Bowser's mentality. For example, Bowser never wished Mario to cease to exist, so he's not going to do that.

I'm curious to know what else you'd qualify as a wish within his mentality. I agree he wouldn't just wish for someone to disappear.

Also, @ Munomario777 I get your point about HW being non-canon, but I also think it's possible Aonuma may not make a distinction between non-canon and alternate canon, so we might need to just assume non-canon = alternate canon like @ Nerdicon said. I personally like Nerdicon's suggestion that they get the equipment/weapons from HW but they keep their powers and abilities from the main series, since I believe all the attacks in HW are exaggerated so you can single handily defeat armies (in one sitting as opposed to over the course of an adventure).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm pretty sure the reason he didn't wish for someone to disappear was plot-induced stupidity. If he could do that, the game would be literally unwinnable. He makes selfish wishes in-game, so why wouldn't he wipe people from existence?

 

[Munomario777]

I think so, too. I'm just making a point.

Ah, okay.

No, no, no. I demonstrated that adding ice to ice does not mean it has a lower melting point. This whole thing started because you thought we should add the magic armor with the blue holy ring so Link could withstand 1,900+ centigrade. I've been here showing why I don't think it works that way. My last example before he ice example was the one with reinforced carbon-carbon, which I think made a great argument from analogy.

With ice, this does not work because the ice will melt. With reinforced carbon-carbon, this does not work because it goes beyond the material's intended temperatures (and presumably melts it/penetrates it/etc. as a result). With Magic Armor, this would not apply as no attack has been shown to just deactivate the Magic Armor.

I think it's a more reasonable approach, however, until we do see examples of technology that function similarly to ours in this day and age. In a fantasy theme, I'm going to expect fantasy things and a time period set in the past.

Okay.

Et cetera, et cetera.

That's irrelevant when people in the past believed it or experienced it. People in the past believed in fantastic things we'd call imaginary today. Some still experience seeing or hearing angels or gods today. It's an objective thing to them.

Believing in a magic talking boat and riding in a magic talking boat are two different things. I don't deny that they believed in a magic talking boat, but that's not what's happening in the Zeldaverse; people are sailing in them there.

Yeah, but considering the technology to have colored pictures requires a fairy of some sort where the Great Deku Tree is located. I don't know how the technology works in the Zeldaverse, but that much I do know.

Not in the remake. In Wind Waker HD, the person that upgrades it references that a Forest Firefly was needed in the past, and he just upgrades it after you complete a sidequest. Apparently technology advanced so much since the GameCube version that the firefly could be replaced.

That's because the GBA is an added feature.

Link receives the Tingle Tuner from Tingle whether or not the player owns a Game Boy Advance. Also, if we're counting something as non-canon because it represents something outside the game world, then the KopPad (from Pikmin 3) is non-canon because it represents the Wii U's Gamepad.

Well, it looks like there were automata in the past. The only advanced thing from a beamos is its laser. (I don't even know if that word is ever used to describe what they fire. I just presume it's one because of what Fi says.) The way beamos' are portrayed in OoT/MM seem to suggest they have actual eyes, since smoke irritates them.

While automata did exist in the past, the robots in Skyward Sword are much more advanced, more intelligent, and heck, they even have electricity for arms:

Not to mention the mechanical/electrical mining facility these robots inhabit:

I used the video concerning Jabun because the distance seemed about similar to the distance between Samus and the super missile explosion.

Ah, I see.

I understand.

M'kay.

The explosion isn't a perfect sphere, so the radius isn't exact. I went with the longer side because I wanted to see what the yield would be if I chose that distance. I also did it to avoid being called out on trying to limit Link.

True. I was just suggesting using a clearer point of reference than Link's hat (which isn't too visible in the image, unless I'm missing something).

Here's an image of the explosion.

Funny how Link doesn't even fly from the shock wave. So, anyway, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take those pointy areas of the explosion into consideration because that causes problems. I could just try circling the image and then take Link's height to compare. Ignoring Link's hat and starting off with his hair, Link stands at 86 pixels. Using the free form selection, I tried tracing a circle. It's not perfect, so this will need to be an approximation. I did remove those pointy parts and traced to where the inward pointy part comes in contact with the circular shape. I will be going the long way.

So the radius of the explosion should be 414 px. Link's height was presumed to be 147.32 centimeters tall. This would mean the blast radius is 7.0919162790697674076 meters. The explosive velocity for black powder is 1,350 m/s. This means it takes only 0.005253271317829457339 seconds for the explosion to cover this distance. This results in 796,332,473.07 joules (796 megajoules), or 190.33 kilograms of TNT. Multiply that by 8 and you have an equivalent of 1.52 tons of TNT.

Yeah, that sounds like a good amount.

I think the last video you provided offered better results.

Glad to hear!

Head first when he dives. The animation shows him with his knees bent as he groans in pain.

Ah. I think we can disregard that, since the game doesn't seem to be coded to apply falling damage to the head rather than the legs.

I really don't think we should accept all game mechanics. I was making a point. It's quite clear from Hyrule Historia that force in the Zeldaverse is "the breath of life itself". That's what it says verbatim. I'm really not sure about Mario. Considering bullet bills can kill him and his vulnerability to sharp objects, I'd say he's pretty human with the exception of being able to withstand blunt force, which seems to be the case for most characters.

Yeah, that does seem to be a rather common theme.

It's not canon. That's my reason. I don't even agree with alternate canon for other characters, either, so I'm not being hypocritical. I suppose what we know of Impa, we could attribute to Sheik, considering she was trained by Impa. I'd be up for that if anyone else is.

That sounds fine to me.

The Star Rod should be allowed to grant any wish within Bowser's mentality. For example, Bowser never wished Mario to cease to exist, so he's not going to do that.

Yeah, I'd be fine with going with that if we're not going to apply power sources and all that.

Well my point is you cant initiate any skills voluntarily but I see you're point. Skills in FE don't translate cleanly to other games, so I say we just vote on it and move on. I don't care enough to debate it since it's so ambiguous.

Okay, sounds good.

I knew you exaggerating about that. And it's not like Mario dies quicker from a bullet bill than vs other attacks, so that's why I disagree on him only having human durability. He can be struck by lightning, burnt, crushed...I think his durability is pretty super human.

Of course Mario can't get killed more quickly from a Bullet Bill than from other attacks; they kill non-Super Mario in one hit. The Super Mushroom (and any other power-up) blocks one fatal attack, and then Mario is on his own.

Also, @ Munomario777 I get your point about HW being non-canon, but I also think it's possible Aonuma may not make a distinction between non-canon and alternate canon, so we might need to just assume non-canon = alternate canon like @ Nerdicon said. I personally like Nerdicon's suggestion that they get the equipment/weapons from HW but they keep their powers and abilities from the main series, since I believe all the attacks in HW are exaggerated so you can single handily defeat armies (in one sitting as opposed to over the course of an adventure).

"Is Hyrule Warriors canon?
(...) it doesn't exist as part of the main canon. (...)"
I don't think you can call something non-canon more clearly than that. We're discussing the characters from Smash and how they stack up in their own canon. Seeing as how the Zelda characters from Smash are from the Zelda game canon, and Hyrule Warriors is separate from that, we cannot associate HW Zelda's properties with, erm, Zelda Zelda's properties. They're from alternate canons, and thus should not be associated with each other. If we're allowing Hyrule Warriors into the discussion, we may as well add in Sonic Boom.

 

[Knight Dude]

I don't know about you guys, But Shaq always seemed pretty strong. I think he could take the fight with little effort.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't know about you guys, But Shaq always seemed pretty strong. I think he could take the fight with little effort.

Not really, because:

• traps him in another dimension.
  
• swallows him.
  
• wishes him dead.
  
• punches his head off.
  
• banishes him to the underworld.
  
• wipes him from existence.
  
• traps him in a black hole.

He can make a valiant effort, though.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm laughing my head off right now.

In more important news, we've been missing the real powerhouse in the smash series: Mr. Game and Watch
Mr. Game and Watch doesn't even exist in 3 dimensions, so theoretically Mr. Game and Watch can't be harmed!
I mean really, if his dimensions are 4x4x0 or something similar, how would he even be affected by anyone's attacks?
How can you harm something that doesn't exist? He'd be able to slip through any attack just by being impossibly thin.
He has ascended to a higher level of fighting, he is literally impossible to fight in his form.
for Game and Watch tier

 

[Munomario777]

I'm laughing my head off right now.

In more important news, we've been missing the real powerhouse in the smash series: Mr. Game and Watch
Mr. Game and Watch doesn't even exist in 3 dimensions, so theoretically Mr. Game and Watch can't be harmed!
I mean really, if his dimensions are 4x4x0 or something similar, how would he even be affected by anyone's attacks?
How can you harm something that doesn't exist? He'd be able to slip through any attack just by being impossibly thin.
He has ascended to a higher level of fighting, he is literally impossible to fight in his form.
for Game and Watch tier

A piece of paper is flat, yet it can be cut.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Or, you could just hit him in the front.

 

[Nerdicon]

A piece of paper is flat, yet it can be cut.

A piece of paper is flat, but it has depth. A piece of paper could be 11x8.5x0.0012 but it still exists in three dimensions. Game and Watch does not, he has no mass so nothing can hurt him and he can't hurt anyone else. He literally breaks the rules of physics, and therefore deserves to be on another tier.

Or, you could just hit him in the front.

How do you hit something that has no mass?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

A piece of paper is flat, but it has depth. A piece of paper could be 11x8.5x0.0012 but it still exists in three dimensions. Game and Watch does not, he has no mass so nothing can hurt him and he can't hurt anyone else. He literally breaks the rules of physics, and therefore deserves to be on another tier. How do you hit something that has no mass?

There's not anything that confirms your argument.

 

[Nerdicon]

There's not anything that confirms your argument.

If Mr Game and Watch is 2D, then everything I said should be true

 

[Munomario777]

If Mr Game and Watch is 2D, then everything I said should be true

When is it said that Mr. Game & Watch is more two-dimensional that a piece of paper?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Of course Mario can't get killed more quickly from a Bullet Bill than from other attacks; they kill non-Super Mario in one hit. The Super Mushroom (and any other power-up) blocks one fatal attack, and then Mario is on his own.

...yes, at which point he's equally vulnerable to all attacks. I'm not sure what your point is.

"Is Hyrule Warriors canon?
(...) it doesn't exist as part of the main canon. (...)"
I don't think you can call something non-canon more clearly than that. We're discussing the characters from Smash and how they stack up in their own canon. Seeing as how the Zelda characters from Smash are from the Zelda game canon, and Hyrule Warriors is separate from that, we cannot associate HW Zelda's properties with, erm, Zelda Zelda's properties. They're from alternate canons, and thus should not be associated with each other. If we're allowing Hyrule Warriors into the discussion, we may as well add in Sonic Boom.

Never said it was part of main canon or that they should get HW Zelda properties...

A piece of paper is flat, but it has depth. A piece of paper could be 11x8.5x0.0012 but it still exists in three dimensions. Game and Watch does not, he has no mass so nothing can hurt him and he can't hurt anyone else. He literally breaks the rules of physics, and therefore deserves to be on another tier.

How do you hit something that has no mass?

Hmmm, well I'm not saying G&W is 2D as opposed to flat, but if he was the only gaming comparison I can think of is Super Paper Mario, where I believe 3-D Mario couldn't be touched or even interact with 2-D enemies. They weren't even aware he existed. Of course I don't believe he could hurt them either. So if G&W was truly 2D, and dimensions acted like in Super Paper Mario, almost every match would end in a tie.

 

[Nerdicon]

Hmmm, well I'm not saying G&W is 2D as opposed to flat, but if he was the only gaming comparison I can think of is Super Paper Mario, where I believe 3-D Mario couldn't be touched or even interact with 2-D enemies. They weren't even aware he existed. Of course I don't believe he could hurt them either. So if G&W was truly 2D, and dimensions acted like in Super Paper Mario, almost every match would end in a tie.

Exactly, G&W can't be harmed so he deserves to be in his own tier
Anyway I found a Youtube video that details the theoretical properties of a 2D object, pretty interesting video but it helps my case and that's what's important.