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Who Are IC's Best and Worst Against?
- Thread starter IceZ
- Start date
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Captain Falcon owns the **** out of them. I hate fighting my roommate with him.
They kinda **** Donkey Kong though.
They kinda **** Donkey Kong though.
pockyD
Smash Legend
good post here
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97676
peach is clearly the worst IC matchup, and I personally hate samus and a good marth as well (also luigi, but this doesn't happen that often)
on the other hand, ICs are clearly good vs sheik and mario/doc
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97676
peach is clearly the worst IC matchup, and I personally hate samus and a good marth as well (also luigi, but this doesn't happen that often)
on the other hand, ICs are clearly good vs sheik and mario/doc
xEnvYx
Smash Cadet
ganon, peach, and marth all seem to give me a hard time.
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
You can check the "all character matchup list" to see how they matchup against other characters. Basically though it all depends on your grab combos and chaining ability. If you are good enough with that then only peach, samus, and marth should really give you tons of grief.
wrong.
ICz do very well against CF and the matchup is at least even 50-50. i personally see it 60-40 in ICz favor due to [almost] guaranteed cgs and edgeguarding options.
search button plz. this topic has been discussed to death.
good for ICz: falco, sheik, marios
even: fox, falcon, ganon
bad for ICz: peach, marth, samus
/thread
Umm... let's see...
Captain Falcon's best options against you come from his ability to lock you in shield stun then run away. His d-air and knee make you slide too far and keep you from being able to punish him for approaching your shield that deeply. He can also have very safe options against your shield by hitting you with the tip of his n-air, but the problem is that he has to pull back on his horizontal momentum to do so. That makes it easier to space things like dash attack and up-tilts against him.
When I'm playing against Falcon, I pretty much just try to correctly guess his approach options and hit him out with up-tilt, dash-attack, or jab. That way I can segue into a grab and take the stock.
Falcon has safe stuff that chips away at your shield, and when played with a lot of precision he can be very hard to fight. The problem is that your opponent WILL make mistakes, and you WILL take entire stocks off single hits and errors. He has a tougher time exploiting your stuff, especially if you're CC'ing at the start of the match. He'll get an opening, he'll do about 20 percent, he'll try to follow up and you'll get away or trade hits.
Personally, I like to use blizzard a lot against him to sort of slap him out of his approach. With Nana blizzarding, sometimes I land grabs or hits that lead into grabs. If he jumps out of the blizzard, I try to exploit that as much as possible.
I haven't fought like, Darkrain, Silent Spectre, Isai, or anybody like that... so I don't know how applicable my advice is at super serious levels of play.
Captain Falcon's best options against you come from his ability to lock you in shield stun then run away. His d-air and knee make you slide too far and keep you from being able to punish him for approaching your shield that deeply. He can also have very safe options against your shield by hitting you with the tip of his n-air, but the problem is that he has to pull back on his horizontal momentum to do so. That makes it easier to space things like dash attack and up-tilts against him.
When I'm playing against Falcon, I pretty much just try to correctly guess his approach options and hit him out with up-tilt, dash-attack, or jab. That way I can segue into a grab and take the stock.
Falcon has safe stuff that chips away at your shield, and when played with a lot of precision he can be very hard to fight. The problem is that your opponent WILL make mistakes, and you WILL take entire stocks off single hits and errors. He has a tougher time exploiting your stuff, especially if you're CC'ing at the start of the match. He'll get an opening, he'll do about 20 percent, he'll try to follow up and you'll get away or trade hits.
Personally, I like to use blizzard a lot against him to sort of slap him out of his approach. With Nana blizzarding, sometimes I land grabs or hits that lead into grabs. If he jumps out of the blizzard, I try to exploit that as much as possible.
I haven't fought like, Darkrain, Silent Spectre, Isai, or anybody like that... so I don't know how applicable my advice is at super serious levels of play.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i said this before:
decent ic > decent falcon
good ic > good falcon
great ic < great falcon
mostly holds true. unless you're wobbles, because he beats... lots of counter picks. lol.
the following counter picks are difficult to judge, and the results are usually based on knowledge of the matchup: falcon, samus, jigglypuff, ganondorf, fox, and luigi.
they're not outright 100% counter picks, but they are difficult to deal with if you don't know what they're doing. and don't assume that you always know what you're doing, because a bunch of different character players always show up at tournaments.
as for me, luigi and falcon seem to be my bane, but i do very well against fox.
characters you should fear 100%:
p
e
a
c
h
unless, of course, you are chu or wobbles. chu = grab combos perfect wtf. wobbles = wobbles. unless you are chu or wobbles, your best choice against peach is to pick a different character.
ALSO, PEOPLE TEND TO GET THE WRONG IDEA ABOUT IC VS SHEIK.
if you're not good at dsmash chain grab, i'd say it's 55-45. maybe even 50-50
if you're good at it, i'd say 65-35. MASTER THE DSMASH CHAIN GRAB AGAINST SHEIK!
decent ic > decent falcon
good ic > good falcon
great ic < great falcon
mostly holds true. unless you're wobbles, because he beats... lots of counter picks. lol.
the following counter picks are difficult to judge, and the results are usually based on knowledge of the matchup: falcon, samus, jigglypuff, ganondorf, fox, and luigi.
they're not outright 100% counter picks, but they are difficult to deal with if you don't know what they're doing. and don't assume that you always know what you're doing, because a bunch of different character players always show up at tournaments.
as for me, luigi and falcon seem to be my bane, but i do very well against fox.
characters you should fear 100%:
p
e
a
c
h
unless, of course, you are chu or wobbles. chu = grab combos perfect wtf. wobbles = wobbles. unless you are chu or wobbles, your best choice against peach is to pick a different character.
ALSO, PEOPLE TEND TO GET THE WRONG IDEA ABOUT IC VS SHEIK.
if you're not good at dsmash chain grab, i'd say it's 55-45. maybe even 50-50
if you're good at it, i'd say 65-35. MASTER THE DSMASH CHAIN GRAB AGAINST SHEIK!
choknater
Smash Obsessed
believe it or not, falco is one of ic's easiest matchups. any grab should be instant death if you combo/cg/wobble correctly. a well-placed wavesmash can take him out at VERY, VERY low percentages and he is easy to edge guard. ledge hop dair is an amazing edge guard for falcos trying to sweet spot. if he doesn't sweet spot, it's a free fsmash/dsmash.
when you play against falco, just don't be scared and remember how easy he is to kill.
on his side... he doesn't have much choice but to pillar the hell out of popo and nana individually and do his best to fsmash/spike for the kill. falco can be VERY dangerous if he starts using dairs consecutively and doesn't leave any time for you to sync back up with nana. contrary to popular belief, desynching is not very useful against him.. it's unecessary. a tip for final destination... if he spams lasers, spam him back with blocks. no need to desynch: the lasers hitting you will desynch for you. spamming back and forth totally hinders his lasers because in essence you can equal or even outdamage him with projectiles.
yes, falco is very easy... but i recommend this old rob$ vs chudat video where rob$ totally 3-stock ***** chudat with crazy falco pillar combos.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YBBvsOMN-wA
^this situation is one in a million. it's not everyday you face a falco that good. ^_^
when you play against falco, just don't be scared and remember how easy he is to kill.
on his side... he doesn't have much choice but to pillar the hell out of popo and nana individually and do his best to fsmash/spike for the kill. falco can be VERY dangerous if he starts using dairs consecutively and doesn't leave any time for you to sync back up with nana. contrary to popular belief, desynching is not very useful against him.. it's unecessary. a tip for final destination... if he spams lasers, spam him back with blocks. no need to desynch: the lasers hitting you will desynch for you. spamming back and forth totally hinders his lasers because in essence you can equal or even outdamage him with projectiles.
yes, falco is very easy... but i recommend this old rob$ vs chudat video where rob$ totally 3-stock ***** chudat with crazy falco pillar combos.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YBBvsOMN-wA
^this situation is one in a million. it's not everyday you face a falco that good. ^_^
Aesir
Smash Master
bad match ups? LOLZ you guys can wobble bad match-ups doesn't apply to you.
I'm partially joking here too.
but I think peach is their worst and Sheik is probably their best lol.
I'm partially joking here too.
but I think peach is their worst and Sheik is probably their best lol.
Aesir
Smash Master
oh but wobbling makes the ICs so much more enjoyable :D
edit: I guess chu sucks cause he wobbles too. LOLOLOLOL
edit: I guess chu sucks cause he wobbles too. LOLOLOLOL
Aesir
Smash Master
LOLOL wth? yes he does
Delphiki
Smash Champion
I support everything Chok said about Falco. Especially at FD.....Falco is pretty much screwed unless they're a good deal better than the IC player.
Aesir, no he dunt heres a video of him playing, he will do grab combos but no infinite wobbles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntTfAoJGqiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntTfAoJGqiY
Aesir
Smash Master
pockyD
Smash Legend
it's not 'weird'; it's just that wobbling is a more recent trend and most videos of chu you find are going to be quite old
choknater
Smash Obsessed
what makes you think that?
Match results
Winners' bracket
Bye
Defeated gamefreak
Defeated treble
Defeated kirbysan
Defeated wife
Defeated koreandj
Lost to mew2king
Losers' bracket
Lost to koreandj
cataclysm 3 ^_^
u serious?
anyways, a couple things...
1. great ic = great falcon. when u get to that ultra-high JV-5-stock pwn r4pe level of playing, whoever wins a match won because they played better as a better player in that game--not because of char advantages. if youre getting gimped by gay char advantages and havent found a way around them yet like peach, youre not that good (i.e. me and most of us here)
2. chu has not been doing worse since wobbling. and i dont think anyone here really has the knowledge to make this kind of determination, and youre basing it purely on speculation. if anything, you could compare tourney results, but as chok showed above that is clearly not the case...
"defeated wife" (<--peach user mind you)
"defeated koreandj"
...plz
Aesir
Smash Master
so? Ken use to be first your point?
Aesir
Smash Master
What I'm saying is, just because hes third and he's wobbling now doesn't mean it was because of wobbling why he lost.
Maybe he started to lose more and said "f-this, I'm wobbling"
Maybe he started to lose more and said "f-this, I'm wobbling"
pockyD
Smash Legend
where was kdj at all a bit over a year ago? it's not so much the skill gap changing as a relative unknown coming out of nowhere and pushing his way into the top players discussion
edit: no one says chu needs to wobble; you look at most older chu vids and when he gets a grab in guaranteed wobble situations (nana synced, dmg over, say, 50-60) they usually end up dead anyway. i personally don't think it's had very much effect on his game at all, and it certainly hasn't made him worse; you forget that there are other factors involved besides the rise of wobblinb
edit: no one says chu needs to wobble; you look at most older chu vids and when he gets a grab in guaranteed wobble situations (nana synced, dmg over, say, 50-60) they usually end up dead anyway. i personally don't think it's had very much effect on his game at all, and it certainly hasn't made him worse; you forget that there are other factors involved besides the rise of wobblinb
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
This is a stupid debate.
Chu has been wobbling since way back at OC2, when we can all agree he was at his best.
He had a bad showing at MLG Nationals that I don't think has anything to do with wobbling. He's always lost to Azen, and Isai was bound to win one against him at some point.
Wobbles and Trail have been closing the gap, but Chu is still the best IC's in the country, wobbling or not.
Chu has been wobbling since way back at OC2, when we can all agree he was at his best.
He had a bad showing at MLG Nationals that I don't think has anything to do with wobbling. He's always lost to Azen, and Isai was bound to win one against him at some point.
Wobbles and Trail have been closing the gap, but Chu is still the best IC's in the country, wobbling or not.
Lixi that is true that Chu is still the best IC, mainly because he can do so much more than grabs, but also he hasnt been wobbling since OC2, he may have brought it out very rarely if he was in desperate need, i dont know, but since he has started doing it more he has gone down in rankings.
Just because something happens doesn't mean that whatever event follows the first is caused by it.