Where do I stand?

[MalusCalibur]

Firstly, hello all, long time lurker first time poster.

I've often wondered where I stand with regards to Smash. The divide between 'casual' and 'competitive' play has not escaped my attention and I've often thought 'where does my style of play fit into this' I thought the best way to find out would be to ask.

The details of my play style:

I've been playing Smash since SSB64. I've been playing Melee since its release date here in the UK (24th May 2002).

Generally my VS matches are 5 stock, no item, Final Destination. Against the CPU I sometimes play different stages (I place no limitation on them), but against my most common human opponent, we play FD because it feels 'epic' to us, as well as being the fairest stage.

I am aware of 'advanced techniques', such as wavedashing and l-cancelling, but I do not use them. This is mainly due to a moral objection to them, but since this is a highly debated topic I will leave its discussion out of this thread.

Against my most common human opponent, we have an agreement not to edgeguard or ledgehog. This is only really an 'honour code' between the two of us. Against the computer I have no qualms about preventing their recovery (although I used to).

I can comfortably defeat any level 9 computer 1 on 1. I can also comfortably place 1st in free-for-alls against any three level 9 computers. (I realise these two count for very little, though)

I am aware of the tier list, but I do not pay it much heed.

My character of choice is usually Marth. It is important to realise that I began to use him as my 'main' BEFORE I was aware of the tier list. Other characters I feel proficient with are Link and Ganondorf (less so Ganondorf).

When I (eventually) get hold of Brawl, I will play with Smash Balls on, but probably no other item. My characters of choice will likely be Marth, Metaknight, Sonic, Lucario, and Ganondorf (subject to change, since all I have to go on at present are who I like and some gameplay videos).

Most importantly, I do not believe there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to play the game (with regards to casual/competitive play). I do, personally feel that both groups do some things 'wrong', but this is because everyone (myself included) will always feel that they way they play is the best way.


So, bearing all those in mind, where on the casual/competitive scale do you think I would lie?
Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

[Corigames]

You stand no where. You do not participate in the same gameplay we do, you challenge yourself by playing computers, not edge guarding, and you don't understand why there IS a wrong way with regards to competitive play. You can't say all these things about not playing like everyone else and then expect us to compare you to us. It's not possible. If I were to give you a grade by how I we do things here, it would have to be a failing one. You have not gotten over the n00b hump, you aren't making any progress, and you obviously haven't participated in a tournament outside of your own.

Like I said, you stand no where.

 

[MalusCalibur]

You stand no where. You do not participate in the same gameplay we do, you challenge yourself by playing computers, not edge guarding, and you don't understand why there IS a wrong way with regards to competitive play. You can't say all these things about not playing like everyone else and then expect us to compare you to us. It's not possible. If I were to give you a grade by how I we do things here, it would have to be a failing one. You have not gotten over the n00b hump, you aren't making any progress, and you obviously haven't participated in a tournament outside of your own.

Like I said, you stand no where.

Whether or not what you've said is true, the above seemed an incredibly abrasive way to say so.
I play against the computer because I am largely forced to, having only one competent human opponent who I very rarely see.
I don't 'expect' you to do anything, I merely asked. If you feel that you cannot compare me to you, then you don't have to.
The 'n00b hump' comment felt a little unnecesary.
No, I have never participated in a tournament. I never claimed to.
I feel you may have misunderstood my original request, as well. What I asked was where I would be placed on the line between hyper-competitive (no items, tiers, advanced techniques, stage restrictions) and hyper-casual (the opposite), since I've never really known how I might label myself in this regard.
I don't doubt that I would not have even the slightest chance against a pro, but then again the liklihood of me ever playing against one is slim to nil.
I'm sure that I could not judge all pro's based on this one reply, but if that attitude is prevailing then I would be happier 'not making any progress'.

Thanks anyway, though.

 

[D20]

From what you've said, you would be right in the middle.

However, there is no "moral code" in smash. There is only one rule... "Don't get hit."

 

[MalusCalibur]

From what you've said, you would be right in the middle.

However, there is no "moral code" in smash. There is only one rule... "Don't get hit."

Thank you, this is much more the kind of reply I had hoped for

The 'honour code' thing is essentially just between me and my common opponent: we're good friends and established it a long time ago. I doubt I would uphold it against anyone else, and against an 'unknown' opponent (i.e. someone I had not played before), I would not expect them to either.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Patinator]

Dude. You're one of the smartest-posting people I've seen on this sight. Congratulations.

Anyway... I'm just about in the same situation as you, except for the not-using-advanced-techniques part (Minus wavedashing and SHFFLing with Fast-fallers X_X).

Although I will say the non-edgeguarding and ledge-hogging is a little... Scrubby/noobish. No offense...

 

[MalusCalibur]

Dude. You're one of the smartest-posting people I've seen on this sight. Congratulations.

Anyway... I'm just about in the same situation as you, except for the not-using-advanced-techniques part (Minus wavedashing and SHFFLing with Fast-fallers X_X).

Although I will say the non-edgeguarding and ledge-hogging is a little... Scrubby/noobish. No offense...

Thank you kindly

As far as advanced techniques go, my only moral issue is with wavedashing. L-cancelling is fine, and SHFFLing...well, I find it a bit dull personally, but I have no problems with its use. I just havnt got the hang of those two yet. I didnt make this clear in my original post, though, so I thought it best to mention it now.

The non edgeguard/ledgehog idea is just for one opponent of mine. I think we've been doing it too long to quit: I today suggested we allow edgeguarding but I was shot down.

Thank you for you reply

 

[Patinator]

Certainly no problem, sir. But I must ask, what do you mean by moral issues?

 

[MalusCalibur]

Certainly no problem, sir. But I must ask, what do you mean by moral issues?

Well, I am of the belief that wavedashing is a glitch, as opposed to a feature of the game: that the creators did not intend for it to be present. Thus, I object to its use. I feel that its removal from Brawl is strong evidence that it was unintentional.
I could, of course, be wrong, since none of us really know what the developers intended, and are never likely to find out.
I have nothing against those who do use it, and if I were to play someone who did, and they won, I would recognise that it may have helped them do so but would not 'blame' my loss on it. I would accept that they won because they were willing to use a technique I was not.

I hope that makes sense and does not offend anyone.

 

[Dragmire]

it's quite easy to do you know.

but in the case a glitch in terms of definition is "a feature never developed or possible to do without cheating or outside sources" but it's a unique argument. either way this thread will probably be closed in a matter of 2-5 days

 

[Patinator]

It's quite alright. At least you don't attack it like a mad, rabid beast like others.

They might have changed Brawl's air dodge system so it would be more realistic. Yet at the same time, I believe wavedashing is a realistic physic.

Imagine; hovering over the ground. Ice. You suddenly jerk diagonally downward. Wouldn't it make sense if one slides? Even on normal terrain...

Well, that isn't possible. But hitting the ground sharply at a fast speed- The air dodge factor- is. IE, a plane crashing to the ground. Let's make it a test so as not to make it tragic.

But at the same time, stopping in midair- Or rather, as is possible now, on a road with a car I suppose- makes you skid, which would be sliding. The same principals might apply in the air.

:O I typed THAT?

 

[Yoshistar64]

Hey, just do what you want to do. It's a game, you're free to do whatever you want. Don't let anyone oppose your style.

 

[MalusCalibur]

It's quite alright. At least you don't attack it like a mad, rabid beast like others.

They might have changed Brawl's air dodge system so it would be more realistic. Yet at the same time, I believe wavedashing is a realistic physic.

Imagine; hovering over the ground. Ice. You suddenly jerk diagonally downward. Wouldn't it make sense if one slides? Even on normal terrain...

Well, that isn't possible. But hitting the ground sharply at a fast speed- The air dodge factor- is. IE, a plane crashing to the ground. Let's make it a test so as not to make it tragic.

But at the same time, stopping in midair- Or rather, as is possible now, on a road with a car I suppose- makes you skid, which would be sliding. The same principals might apply in the air.

:O I typed THAT?

That's all a very good analysis. I think perhaps that the way the slide works out in-game doesnt seem to fit with how I would imagine your scenarios playing out. This could of course be because it all happens too fast to see.

Hey, just do what you want to do. It's a game, you're free to do whatever you want. Don't let anyone oppose your style.

Thank you, I will


I hope this thread has not become too sidetracked with the wavedash issue: it was not my intention to create a discussion about it (although a discussion, rather than a heated argument, is what it is, which I feel is a good thing). It has helped to put my views and gameplay style into a better perspective, though. I would hope that its inclusion in the thread does not get it locked.

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[Yoshistar64]

I hope this thread has not become too sidetracked with the wavedash issue:

A lot of threads get sidetracked with the wavedash issue at one point or another. It's normal... but annoying

 

[Patinator]

*Shakes head rapidly to clear fuzzyness* That huge post I made gave me a headache, lol.

Yes, heated arguments and flame wars are unnecessary. For once, Wavedashing has not been included in either.

I suppose my analogies were slightly... Weird. But still. Merely running a wavedash through my head in traning mode, 1/4th the speed, makes me think of a plane crashing diagonally into the ground, sliding a distance, and stopping.

AGH, I GOT STARTED AGAIN!

Ahem. I never really answered your first post's question, actually.

I hate to say this. But, beating CPUs mean nothing. I'm certain, though, you know this. One needs to place well in a tournament to really be considered good.

HOWEVER. I'd say you're a hybrid of casual and competitive. Like me. I play with Items sometimes; other times, its 4-stock, 8 minute, Three-platform stages/long flat stage, with my plethora of mains and secondary characters...

Here are some words that describe you, a hybrid of casual and competitive.

Casetitive.

Compasual.

Competual.

Casuetive.

...Uh... Okay, no more.

If this thread does get locked, hopefully I'll see you on other places of the boards.

 

[Yoshistar64]

If this thread does get locked, hopefully I'll see you on other places of the boards.

Yeah, you're one of them better posters.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I will bold everything that makes you fail.

Firstly, hello all, long time lurker first time poster.

I've often wondered where I stand with regards to Smash. The divide between 'casual' and 'competitive' play has not escaped my attention and I've often thought 'where does my style of play fit into this' I thought the best way to find out would be to ask.

The details of my play style:

I've been playing Smash since SSB64. I've been playing Melee since its release date here in the UK (24th May 2002).

Generally my VS matches are 5 stock, no item, Final Destination. Against the CPU I sometimes play different stages (I place no limitation on them), but against my most common human opponent, we play FD because it feels 'epic' to us, as well as being the fairest stage.

I am aware of 'advanced techniques', such as wavedashing and l-cancelling, but I do not use them. This is mainly due to a moral objection to them, but since this is a highly debated topic I will leave its discussion out of this thread.

Against my most common human opponent, we have an agreement not to edgeguard or ledgehog. This is only really an 'honour code' between the two of us. Against the computer I have no qualms about preventing their recovery (although I used to).

I can comfortably defeat any level 9 computer 1 on 1. I can also comfortably place 1st in free-for-alls against any three level 9 computers. (I realise these two count for very little, though)

I am aware of the tier list, but I do not pay it much heed.

My character of choice is usually Marth. It is important to realise that I began to use him as my 'main' BEFORE I was aware of the tier list. Other characters I feel proficient with are Link and Ganondorf (less so Ganondorf).

When I (eventually) get hold of Brawl, I will play with Smash Balls on, but probably no other item. My characters of choice will likely be Marth, Metaknight, Sonic, Lucario, and Ganondorf (subject to change, since all I have to go on at present are who I like and some gameplay videos).

Most importantly, I do not believe there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to play the game (with regards to casual/competitive play). I do, personally feel that both groups do some things 'wrong', but this is because everyone (myself included) will always feel that they way they play is the best way.


So, bearing all those in mind, where on the casual/competitive scale do you think I would lie?
Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

[Yoshistar64]

How does it make him fail? Just because he doesn't play the way we do doesn't mean he fails. It's a game, games are meant to be fun, and that's how he plays.

 

[Corigames]

Whether or not what you've said is true, the above seemed an incredibly abrasive way to say so.
I play against the computer because I am largely forced to, having only one competent human opponent who I very rarely see.
I don't 'expect' you to do anything, I merely asked. If you feel that you cannot compare me to you, then you don't have to.
The 'n00b hump' comment felt a little unnecesary.
No, I have never participated in a tournament. I never claimed to.
I feel you may have misunderstood my original request, as well. What I asked was where I would be placed on the line between hyper-competitive (no items, tiers, advanced techniques, stage restrictions) and hyper-casual (the opposite), since I've never really known how I might label myself in this regard.
I don't doubt that I would not have even the slightest chance against a pro, but then again the liklihood of me ever playing against one is slim to nil.
I'm sure that I could not judge all pro's based on this one reply, but if that attitude is prevailing then I would be happier 'not making any progress'.

Thanks anyway, though.

Sorry if I didn't candy coat it, but what I said was absolutely true. I can't tell you where you stand if you don't get up!

Between "hyper" casual and competitive, you are extreme hyper casual. The first step you ahve made to escaping this is joining smash boards. I may not be the best ambassador of this community, but by calling you "the smartest person I have ever seen" certainly isn't going to help you either, maybe polite, but not smart. You obviously aren't wise in the way of smash, and that's ok. We all were at one point. If you can't get over using glitches, then you aren't going to make it far in competition. People WILL use them against you even if you don't. People will edgeguard you, even if you don't.

You wanted to know where you stand, then tell me what character you play, what you can do with them, and if you have any videos. With THAT information, I can tell you where you stand.

 

[Yoshistar64]

He stands casual, okay? It's not like there should only be competitive points of view. He plays for fun.

There is nothing wrong with casual or competitive play. The only thing that can be wrong about ANY sort of play is doubting your own style. You like it, do it. Competitive can be fun to some, and casual can be fun to some. Either way, Smash is a game of variety, whether it be characters, play styles, or the contrast between casual and competitive play.

Playing for how you've played for years is my way to play. If you've used the X button for 5 years, keep doing it. If you can't wavedash out of the shield and YOU feel it isn't your style of play, then don't do it. Games are all about YOU.

Guess I went a little overboard.

 

[Aftermath]

Where you stand on the scale is referred to as a "scrub". You know about the techniques which might give you an edge, but for whatever reason feel a personal obligation to not do anything which may or may not be outside of the developers' original intentions. The other trademark are your self-imposed honor to not edgeguard.

There's no reason to hold back. If you edgeguard, you gain a skill that will give you an advantage. The person you play with might object at first, but once he gains the necessary mindset to avoid it, he'll have learned to avoid your edgeguarding, perhaps turning it around to get a KO of his own.

You guys would probably get more enjoyment from a faster battle where you don't just stop and let the other person recover, but explore the character to the point where you know how to recover against most matchups and how to edgeguard them (or even if you only play a few characters, it will lead to more variety). As for your level choice, FD seems like a good arena since there's nothing to interfere, but by doing so you limit many character's options. If you learn to try wavedashing, you'll find that platforms allow you to move around much more smoothly and exploit character strengths/weaknesses on an entirely different scale.


I agree with coreygames' placing of you. Casual <-----> Competitive scales are one thing, but by adhering to scrub philosophies, you fall outside of this jurisdiction, squarely because of your self-imposed restrcitions on how one should play the game. The fact that you play with items off or only on neutral stages or only use good characters is an irrelevent fact because you deny parts of the game that, regardless of developer intent, are still viable tactics for one to pursue in hopes of getting better or expanding how they play the game.

Of course that's not meant as a horrible insuilt, although it seems like a ridiculous concept that you would forgo edgeguarding altogether, but even casual gamers will do their best to hit the other person when they are off the stage. They understand that it's a part of the game.

 

[Deus]

Of All of the advanced techniques you mention the only one what wasn't "intended" was wave dashing, and it was more of the way it was used that wasn't intended. With a competitive games I don't understand why you wouldn't use everything given to you in order to try and win. I find with competitive games what makes them fun is trying to find uses for every single technique in order to give you the edge. I mean sure, theres exceptions for things like when you're trying to teach a friend how to play the game and what not.

So theres no way that you can be considered a competitive player when you don't even try to compete. If you feel that you get the most fun out of the way you play then great... but then again you can't say its more fun unless you've at least given advanced techniques an actual try like the examples Aftermath was giving (meaning not using them for one match and deciding you don't like them)

 

[Corigames]

See, I'm not as great as a jerk as you think.

 

[Patinator]

Playing to win...

...

...What's the site's name again?

Anyway, don't get upset, Malus because a lot of people are being kinda... Mean to you.

...Person named Everlasting Yays: listen to your signature. Creative, I know.

 

[MalusCalibur]

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone who has replied for taking an interest.

However, I really must make a few interjections. A lot of you have taken my comments about edgeguarding the wrong way. I do not have any problem with it, it IS a part of the game and I DO use it: EXCEPT against ONE person. I have said so a few times now in this thread, so please pay it heed.

@everlasting yayuhzz
Your attitude is completely unneccesary. You could easily have voiced your opinion without being so rude. As a consequence, I have ignored your post.

@coreygames
Yes, I am well are that people will edgeguard/wavedash, and I in turn will edgeguard back, but I don't use wavedashing. My previous post made it clear that I would accept that in a match against anyone. I know I would be handicapping myself by not using it.
I already mentioned which characters I use. As for what I can do with them, it's rather difficult to say since I am forced to play mostly against the computer. All I can say in that regard is that I can happily defeat any level 9 character, which I am all too aware counts for little.
Also, I don't think you're a 'jerk' (an unfamiliar term for me, I must say). You, at least, give some support to your replies, and are not rude for the sake of it.

@Aftermath
As mentioned before, I only impose that 'honour code' on myself against one opponent. Against anyone else I would not. I am also attempting to convince said opponent that we abandon it. I have not had any luck as of yet.

@Deus
I have tried wavedashing out: it's not as if I just saw it used and immediately disassociated myself from it. I can perform it, but not as 'unthinkingly' (is that a word?) as, say, the 'normal' attacks. Practicing it in isolation I can do in training mode, but using it in a practical fashion (ie in a proper match) is extremely difficult for me against the computer (which I must again stress is my only real opponent and it is not something I do out of choice. Nor do I consider being able to beat it any real level of achievement).
L-cancelling I have successfully performed on a number of occassions, since it is ultimately a very simple technique. As with wavedashing though, it's not yet become second nature. The same can be said for SHFFLing.

@Patinator
Thank you for all your kind words thus far
Yes, I know that beating the computer counts for very little. I would love to participate in a tournament, but the UK is sadly devoid and I am unable/unprepared to travel abroad (I'm a student).
Of your hybrid words, I like 'compasual' and 'competual' the best :D
Also, I'm not upset at all. The only person who's post has really been 'mean' is 'everlasting yayuhzz', and rather than be upset by his obvious lack of courtesy, I have chosen to simply ignore him.
And you will most likely see me in other places on this board.

 

[Zankoku]

Patinator, while there is no wrong way to play the game, there most certainly is a wrong way to play competitively. Considering Malus asked for where he stood on the scale, it doesn't seem especially mean for people to give a specific description for why he doesn't appear to be on a competitive level at all. Aftermath and Deus were not being very harsh at all when giving their assessments.

Playing casually puts more emphasis on however one finds the game fun, which is fine. Playing competitively provides the ground rules for as fair a match as possible, but the winner is the winner. Even so, since the objective is to win, playing against CPUs means little at all since winning against them simply involves beating them through one of their faults of AI (always get hit by fsmash, always DI in the same way, never recover after getting hit out of a recovery, etc.). That's how I feel about that.

 

[Sandwich]

The only thing that is vaguely strange in your post is the moral codes.
No moral codes on internets.

 

[Patinator]

Can't argue with a Smashed Er- Sorry, I gotta stop that.

But you're right anyway. I can only play against CPU's, except for one guy around here. I don't know how, since he's in the same boat as me, but I get destroyed because I'm used to AS: artificial stupidity. T_T

 

[Corigames]

Even though both of you say you have a limited number of human players to face, I find that highly unlikely. I'm from WV and I could still find people to play smash against. Granted, they weren't the best, but it gave some diversity.

I'm not saying you have to disclose where you live, but if you go to the Regional board here on smashboards, I bet you can find some people in your respective areas. PM them and see if you can get together with them. You only have a 99% chance of running into a pedophile. Take that 1%

 

[Patinator]

Well, I'm kinda on the young part of teenage years, and I live in a small country neighborhood- If you can call it that. Only kids around here play dumb Sony and Microsoft; besides, I'm not exactly what one would call an unshy person...

 

[Aftermath]

No johns. Look at m2k.

 

[FaceGuy]

This is by far the most polite thread I've seen on SmashBoards so far. I love it

 

[Patinator]

You aren't the only one. Well, the only uncivil post is from the idiot with the Pichu avatar, but he needs to be banned anyway. There was another thread- In the Brawl Discussion, naturally- he made... -___-;

Anyway, do play how you want, Malus. That's one good thing about Melee; there's no set way to play. And I'm sure Brawl shall be even more fun.

Spoiler

Ridley or not.

 

[Corigames]

I love the masks everyone is playing >_>

 

[Patinator]

And what exactly does that mean...?

But um, I suppose Malus' question has been answered. Perhaps this thread should be left to die now...

 

[Luthien]

Malus, I don't think you've actually given us the info we need to tell you whether you are a competetive or casual smasher.

If you want to be the best you possibly can at Smash, and take the game seriously, and enjoy sweet victory, congradulations! You are competetive.

If you want to have fun with Smash and kid around, be random, and get some laughs, congradulations! You are casual.

Those are the most importantant parts of being casual or competetive. There are some trademarks of each, "side" (really people, this isn't a war), and that's why people get confused.

In order for competetive smashers to get as good as they can, they use advanced techniques. That's why if you use advanced techniques, you are assumed to be a competetive smasher. However, I know three casual smashers who both know and use wavedashing, edgeguarding, and l-canceling. And still they remain casual.

The point I'm trying to make is this: do you have a passion to get good, or are you love the game but just want to have fun? THIS, and only this, will determine whether or not you are casual or competetive.

On a side note, I love how civil this thread is. Thank you for the breath of fresh air.

Edit: Sorry, I just had to touch on this:

As far as advanced techniques go, my only moral issue is with wavedashing.

I'm not going to tell you what to think, because it's already been covered a lot. Basically find out for yourself whether or not wavedashing is unethical is by:

1) Make a list of why it might be unethical.
2) Make a list of why it might not be.
3) Go research in some other threads and follow the debates. Everytime you see a reason get disproved, cross it off. The list with the most/more important pieces of evidence is correct.

If you have trouble searching/finding/digging/ravaging your way through the forums, searches and threads, feel free to PM me and I'll try to point the highlights out to you in the most unbiased way I possibly can. Same if you have trouble understanding some stuff.

 

[Bailey]

Honestly you stand at the level: Bad

That is it summed up

No offense but that is where you are

 

[Yoshistar64]

Honestly you stand at the level: Bad

That is it summed up

No offense but that is where you are

You mean bad in the competitive area.

 

[Corigames]

Everyone is talking about how this thread is "civil" compared to other threads. I hope you mean to the general discussion, because this is the only place where spam/trolls go. You won't hardly find anywhere else with a bunch of spiteful, rude people.

Try specific character forums or regional forums.

 

[Bailey]

You mean bad in the competitive area.

No in all areas. I mean if you want to say a causal area then also no because a normal competitor can play casual and still beat him.