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When is an Echo Fighter not an Echo Fighter? (Discussion thread)

Perkilator

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Basically, I made this thread wanted to get people's opinions on Echo Fighters as a concept, and how the Echoes we have were handled.

Personally, I love the concept of Echoes, but I do think there should've been more significant differences. And that's not even going into the characters who felt like natural Echo Fighters, but didn't make it into the game at all.
 

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I think the main thing defining echoes are...

  1. Priority. Echoes are usually lower priority.
  2. Ease of development. All echoes seem to take the skeleton of the original fighter.
  3. Time included. Echoes seem to be a more recent thing with clone characters from Melee and Brawl not being counted.
 

NintenRob

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A big thing seems to be balancing. Sakurai has mentioned that echo fighters aren't balanced the same as the rest of the cast, only using their original counterpart for reference, rather than being balanced against the rest of the Roster.

This would explain why other clones aren't echo fighters. Because they play so drastically different. Even Ken for all his unique moves is ultimately just Ryu but more combo heavy. With I believe the same stats otherwise (weight and such, though he moves slightly faster on the ground)
 

True Blue Warrior

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With :ultken:, it was completely arbitrary.

The Street Fighter series’ Ken will also be making an appearance in Smash Ultimate. He’s different from Ryu in so many ways, one almost wonders whether or not we should even call him an Echo Fighter… Nope. I said he was, so he is.
There is no reason why he couldn’t have been a non-Echo as he is about as different as Dr. Mario and unlike the other Echo Fighters, balancing and testing Ken would absolutely not just be against the original.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Not entirely arbitrary for Ken. He's the "original echo fighter", which does make sense why he got that label. That's something people forget that he also said that.

He's still far less different than Dr. Mario, as the differences in their attributes and movesets are quite apart. Dr. Mario is just the least cloniest of the regular clones, but still vastly different from Mario. Ken? He still shares quite a lot with Ryu, including the same actual gameplay mechanic(it's just that they have different move commands like their home games).

Ken is the only Echo Fighter who could've easily not had it, though, true. It is also worth noting that Dr. Mario wasn't always the same weight as Mario, as the final version of Melee gives them different weights. This does explain somewhat that Sakurai doesn't see him as Echo material because he sees that he has too many different attributes throughout the franchise. Ken cannot say this within Smash itself, and probably never will.

Huh, the same article says PP is a he? Strange. You'd expect they'd go with It. Then again, may be an odd translation.

----------------

As for how they've been handled; they're blatantly different forms of Clones. Even Ken. The idea is they barely have different attributes(sometimes none), must share the same bodyshape, have clearly been the same weight(Reggie's observation makes sense to why he thinks that's an actual requirement), and their differences will never equal that of a more regular clone. Ken, as I noted before, is actually quite a bit more similar to Ryu than Dr. Mario is to Mario. This doesn't mean the Echo label actually fits(it's not entirely arbitrary, but it could go either way too).

The problem comes with not giving them something slightly more. Dark Pit comes a bit too close, but Dark Samus has a different element which separates them enough in Spirit Battles at least. Richter and Simon need a slight bit more, as they barely are different thanks to how their Holy Waters interact with items. Chrom and Lucina are good. Ken is a nuff said on being perfect. Daisy is the only one who hard suffers from lack of differences. While Richter is also pretty bad, Daisy only has... a hurtbox difference here and there, but it's so minor it means nothing even in casual gameplay. She doesn't need much either, just some custom moves or returning the Turnip mistake they made earlier.

I don't know enough about Richter, but Simon has more moves he could use anyway to help further separate them. As for Dark Pit, using any item from Uprising could be enough. Sure, more than just a "few differences" is good too(Lucina and Chrom lacking a type of sweetspot vastly changes how they play. Ironically Ken's thing is just a different moveset combo here and there but plays a bit more like Ryu than one would expect for someone so "different").
 

True Blue Warrior

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He's still far less different than Dr. Mario,
Definitely not.

Ken’s moveset differences from Ryu are: held neutral A, held forward tilt, forward smash, neutral aerial, back aerial, back throw, his two Final Smashes and two unique command input attacks.

Dr. Mario only has three different moves from Mario: down B, down aerial and back throw .

Ken is a semi-clone whereas Dr Mario is more of a Melee style clone.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Definitely not.

Ken’s moveset differences from Ryu are: held neutral A, held forward tilt, forward smash, neutral aerial, back aerial, back throw, his two Final Smashes and two unique command input attacks.

Dr. Mario only has three different moves from Mario: down B, down aerial and back throw .

Ken is a semi-clone whereas Dr Mario is more of a Melee style clone.
This is not actually true. Dr. Mario is far more of a semi-clone and the attributes of his moves(of which you forgot Megavitamins which are not the same as the Fireballs and function differently in practice because of that) are almost all changed up. This is why he can't really be an Echo. He's vastly different from Mario. He's no longer a Melee-style clone, and much more on the Brawl front due to too many changes. 4 and Ultimate evolved him a lot. He might've been more similar if he made it into Brawl, though.

Ken still shares far more with Ryu, including bugged move classifications(his leg attacks are arm attacks because Ryu's are). This is also noticeable when Ken and Ryu aren't that far apart on the Tier List due to their similarities, where Dr. Mario and Mario are worlds apart due to their differences. It's understandable why there's such a vast difference. Generally, Echoes are much closer on Tier Lists if they play more similarly. Lucina and Roy are leagues apart from Marth and Chrom as well, showing yet again how the differences make a far bigger deal.

Ken is a semi-clone by Echo standards, but overall Dr. Mario is more different from Mario. Having reused animations doesn't count either, since different moves actually means how they work. Many share an animation but are functionally a clearly different move. Luigi and Dr. Mario's Down B are similar, but distinct in function. Any attribute change makes it an actually different move too.

As I said, the difference isn't massive... though the tier list does make it clear which is far more different in gameplay too. Compare around 10 tiers in difference from 50. The 50 pretty clearly states they are overall more different in practice.

On paper, Ken definitely looks highly different, but it's not as simple as that. That said, he's still reasonably different, but the classification isn't arbitrary either. That's his original role in Street Fighter II, an Echo Fighter. His changed up moves are based upon the home game. Is it the best classification? Not really. It is ironic how his results don't deviate him as much from Ryu as you'd think though. Which is admittedly weird.

Only Ken's specials and respectively about 6 of his other moves. So that's, what, 17, plus his speed is a tad different? 18 differences. Dr. Mario's differences include all his movements except literal weight being changed by multipliers, and with 20+ moves changed up in some way. Both are highly different no doubt, but Dr. Mario does edge out more with overall changes. Considering the details, it's at nearly 30 compared to about 18. ...Yeah, Dr. Mario has overall more differences(and almost double even). This is pretty clear why they don't play similarly enough to get close results either. One is just plain worse in practice. Ken is worse than Ryu too, but not as noticeably.
 

Perkilator

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Okay so it seems like some people thought I was asking a question so here’s the OP for more clarity:
Basically, I made this thread wanted to get people's opinions on Echo Fighters as a concept, and how the Echoes we have were handled.

Personally, I love the concept of Echoes, but I do think there should've been more significant differences. And that's not even going into the characters who felt like natural Echo Fighters, but didn't make it into the game at all.
In other words, this is an opinion-based discussion thread.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Different animations do matter in terms of hitboxes, so reused animations would lead to more identical hitboxes.
Which doesn't matter if their attributes are literally different. Which means they are still different moves no matter how you cut it.

I don't see why you're ignoring the tons of data that shows what you said isn't actually correct, though. You were proven wrong. Dr. Mario only looks more similar, but actually isn't. The evidence shows consistently how he's overall more different. The only thing that's really correct is Ken is very odd as an Echo label(though again, you're ignoring the context that it wasn't just some arbitrary decision overall. You're cherry-picking while notably ignoring other statements, like his actual role in the SF franchise being identical to an Echo fighter). Beyond that, the translation is clearly a bit off, since PP was never given a gender in the games beyond It. There's some issues with having a non-gendered character among the JP language, so this is part of why, but the translations is definitely not as accurate as it should be.

Ken can look more different, but his total data shows he shares more with Ryu overall. I probably forgot a piece or two, so he might slightly hit 20 differences compared to Dr. Mario's around 30. But yeah, data doesn't lie. Dr. Mario is blatantly more different(and it shows in practice too).
 

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While Lucina may be an Echo Fighter, her more balanced sword means that you can't exactly play her the same way as with Marth. The same ordeal also applies to Chrom when you compare him to Roy. Of course, the oddest part about Chrom is that his Soaring Slash is comparable to Ike's Aether, instead of Roy's Blazer.

Out of all the Echo Fighters though, Ken pretty much stands out the most, not just because his moveset doesn't entirely copy that of Ryu, but because his ground mobility is 1.1x better than Ryu's. In other words, he feels more like a semi-clone than an actual Echo Fighter.
 

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If the audience reception to a clone is going to be really annoying, then they're an echo.

Jokes aside it is currently seemingly completely arbitrary. There are some hardline rules like the models being the same size/proportions, but they're just an offshoot of clones to try and repackage the idea for an audience that was traditionally against them. How it worked, I don't know, but here we are.
 

RileyXY1

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For me Echoes are a step between clones and alt costumes. They're so similar to their base fighter that they are basically alt costumes that were given their own roster slots. Their differences are either nonexistent, limited to aesthetics, or incredibly situational. To me I would only consider four characters to be Echoes, those being Daisy, Dark Samus, Dark Pit, and Richter. These four characters are so similar to their base character that they even share their rankings on the tier list with them. Lucina, Chrom, and Ken, who the game count as Echoes, do at least have enough differences from their base fighter that they get to have their own tier list ranking separate from them.
 
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