What's Your Opinion on Crouch Canceling?

[Giygacoal]

The interview with Reflex reminded a bunch of people (including myself) that crouch canceling is a mechanic worth at least considering changing. I can't say I know a lot about every CC-heavy matchup, but I just get the feeling it's too effective of a mechanic as is.

Here's the very little I do know for Lucario: The ground combos work more consistently on lower percents... but in lower percents, the opponent could crouch cancel (and not just Bowser and Peach...almost everybody has a solid "parry"), so I'll get punished. So I have to shut down the CC by chipping away at the opponent, but it's hard (especially against Mario) because aura sphere is intentionally one of the most lacking projectiles in the game. In other words, my character is supposed to be at his best up-close and worst at neutral, but getting close isn't even beneficial at times with the way some characters can punish. He doesn't even need buffs and Mario doesn't need nerfs, not that they would nor could fix the problem. He's just losing to crouch canceling and not so much the specific opponents (in general; Mario is just tough because of the cape).

I may even be inexperienced and completely wrong on this, but I just think CC is a silly reason to universally determine how the game is played so much. Maybe Lucario is an anomaly and the pace of the game is fine. In my opinion the mechanic should be toned down (provided that the CC-heavy characters are properly compensated) to put more focus on the character niches/uniqueness and less focus on what's sort of like a small x-factor early each stock. I don't think it should be completely removed, though. There are some cool defensive strategies with it at least I think have a good place, like Snake's downb and the classic Peach downsmash.

What do you guys think?

 

[foxygrandpa]

The mechanic for crouch cancelling was better in melee. It did not work until such high percents.
But anyway, a lot of characters have new grab games, making it a little less effective. If they just changed it a little bit so that it was more similar to melee's, I think it would be ok. It's too integrated to remove completely.

 

[Strong Badam]

It matches Melee 100% exactly. Please offer counter examples of moves that haven't changed at all from Melee that are affected more by CCing than in Melee. If you can't find any, please cease in spreading misinformation.

 

[foxygrandpa]

It matches Melee 100% exactly. Please offer counter examples of moves that haven't changed at all from Melee that are affected more by CCing than in Melee. If you can't find any, please cease in spreading misinformation.

it may be that there are heavier characters in this game. Snake can crouch cancel to insanely high percents, for example.

Is it really 100 percent the same? I talked to mew2king, he said it was different...I remember leelue saying the same thing, and he's pmbr.

 

[Strong Badam]

There are not only more heavy characters in the game, but a significantly higher number of relevant heavy characters.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[foxygrandpa]

There are not only more heavy characters in the game, but a significantly higher number of relevant heavy characters.

Yes, yes it is.

sorry for spreading misinformation then.
I was told the landing detection is more similar to brawls, making crouch cancelling more effective.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Being PMBR doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about the game's mechanics or nuances. Would you expect a playtester or artist to know the exact frame data of the characters they work on? They could, but it's not a part of their job to know, y'see?

Really, at this point y'all really, really should assume that PMBR has ported Melee mechanics over from Melee exactly unless you have an official statement or data to back up otherwise. I've seen over two dozen 'X is different from Melee' that all had to be corrected by a PMBR member as "No, it really isn't". It' starting to get old.

On topic crouch cancelling is the dumb. But it's w/e and I can live with it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah IDK about CCing. It's a bit of a double-edged sword. It differentiates low%/high% play which is certainly interesting, but it's obnoxious not only as a player but as a designer to have to keep it in mind and change moves to function that would otherwise be fine but they get countered by holding down on the control stick. I do not expect it to change in PM though, and I'm fine with that.

 

[Bleck]

If they just changed it a little bit so that it was more similar to melee's, I think it would be ok.

The Project M forums, everybody.

 

[_Accelerator]

If you remove Crouch Cancelling, then characters like Peach become even less viable and characters like Ivysaur and Meta Knight will become harder to play against. You can either revert it back to vBrawl's CC system, let it stay the way it is or take a different approach and make it completely different. The question is, does the council really think this is an issue?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you remove Crouch Cancelling, then characters like Peach become even less viable

Peach is not bad. She is in fact, really good, and perfectly viable.

 

[_Accelerator]

Peach is not bad. She is in fact, really good, and perfectly viable.

I believe the argument is "Peach is still good, it's just that everyone else got way better". A lot of Peach mains in Melee don't like her as much in Project M. I don't really play her, but I know she abuses CCC like hell with d-smash

 

[~Frozen~]

Tip for the OP: If you know your opponent is going to CC vs Lucario, you can combo into a sweetspot Dtilt which breaks CC at 0.

While I'm iffy on the implementation of CC'ing in both Melee and PM, I feel removing it would be too drastic of a change for many chars. There's also moves that break CC including grabs, so counterplay exists for it.

 

[Vigilante]

Crouch cancelling is something I integrate in my Roy gameplay, and to be honest, its removal would constitute a pretty sizeable nerf to many characters. At the very least, I don't think that its effectiveness as far as less heavy characters go should be tampered with.

Crouch cancelling is voluntarily accepting damage as a tradeoff for a better reward. It's a viable technique, and really... its victim has many options to avoid getting fooled by it. It is also not something you can continuously rely on.

I am completely fine with it and never felt cheated out of a victory because of it. If I got crouch-cancelled, the fault lies with my bad read.

Peach is certainly not the only character affected by this.

 

[Oracle]

IMO ccing adds a lot of depth to the game because you essentially have two blocking options that usually cover differing sets of options, but still don't get much mileage vs intelligently placed attacks. 99% of moves that 'lose' to crouch canceling can be used in such a way that they mitigate the effects of ccing, whether by good spacing or precise timing. Also, ccing prevents a lot of good moves from being completely broken. With no or less CC, characters like sheik, ivy, metaknight, etc. would be even better than they already are.

 

[_Accelerator]

There's definitely ways to punish Crouch Cancelling. I think it's fine as it is as well.

 

[tauKhan]

I don't like the way crouch canceling works in melee/pm. I think it's stupid that one can't ccc weak moves that don't make you leave the ground, but can ccc strong moves. It's pretty unintuitive that fox's weak nair into shine on another fox at 20% combos if the fox is crouching but not if the fox only asdi's down, or that strong nair can be ccc'd.

 

[Phaiyte]

If your opponent is willing to just sit there and take damage, why can't you just grab them instead of going for a dash attack?

 

[Phaiyte]

sorry for spreading misinformation then.
I was told the landing detection is more similar to brawls, making crouch cancelling more effective.

Crouch cancelling has nothing to do with landing detection.

 

[Strong Badam]

it actually does, but pm landing detection matches melee for melee chars so it's not relevant.

 

[Terotrous]

Is it even possible to remove or weaken Crouch Cancelling with how the physics in PM currently work?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Crouch canceling: 2/3 knockback reduction and hitlag reduction received while in the crouched animation
ASDI down, or pseudo-CC: what this thread is talking about

And DI is totally drifting, guys

Spoiler

I kid, it's a completely understandable relation since true CC almost always yields pseudo-CC anyways

Personally I think the game would suffer in terms of depth were pseudo-CC not a thing.
And also I'm a ROB main so don't you dare nerf mah CC-dsmash

 

[Guel]

Even if it is exactly as melee it sure as hell doesnt play out as melee. It obviously needs some tweaking.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No it doesn't not really. It's not obvious by any stretch because it isn't true.
If you're having issues with getting CC'd then you aren't factoring CC into your punishes.
That is a player fault, not a fault of the game.

 

[Guel]

No it doesn't not really. It's not obvious by any stretch because it isn't true.
If you're having issues with getting CC'd then you aren't factoring CC into your punishes.
That is a player fault, not a fault of the game.

Yea cause I didnt play melee for 14 years since the **** came out. Im just a bad kid.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How long have you been playing PM for?

 

[MLGF]

It's more like CC is more useful due to more heavyweights being viable.
Project M changing it, will decide whether it wants to ascend "bcuz melee" though. It's a little difficult of a situation I don't think I have a good argument on either side for.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nerfing it because heavyweights are viable makes it worse for lightweights than it was in Melee.
That would mean it would still not be "Melee CC" as people expect it.
The ultimate paradox- change it for Melee, it's no longer Melee

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Applying a little lag or animation to the CCer (maybe like 3 frames) plus nerfing the percentage by a bit (maybe 5-10% less) would be OK imho, but don't remove it, it adds depth to the game.
I'd welcome a little tweak though -

 

[DrinkingFood]

Applying a little lag or animation to the CCer (maybe like 3 frames)

It already has that. It's 4-5 frames, depending on the character's idle landing animation length. I don't think there's anybody with 6 frames, maybe bowser?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ah ok sorry for my non-informedness, then only a little applyability reduction is the only thing I would like to see

 

[BluntedMask]

I think its fine, if you space out your **** then you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Guel]

I think its fine, if you space out your **** then you have nothing to worry about.

Space out a CC Mewtwo D-Tilt? lol...

 

[BluntedMask]

Space out a CC Mewtwo D-Tilt?

Choose a move that has about the same range. (Like Zard's nair) Or you could always grab or choose a beefy move that would beat out the CC. (Granted if they are at 0%, then just bait **** out if you know they are gonna CC)

 

[BILL?]

Crouch canceling IMHO adds a lot to the game. Knowing what % to approach with which moves, anticipating a cc-able move, being able to cc-tech, having horrible horrible DI because you tried to cc-tech and it failed. Its a cool concept, taking the damage from a hit so you can have a chance to hit back.
It's one of the many little mechanics that are very "smash" and result in greater variety in tactics.

Some characters do have really strong crouch cancel follow ups but it's not like there aren't counter strategies.

 

[Ripple]

it actually does, but pm landing detection matches melee for melee chars so it's not relevant.

now this is something I could give a counter example for

 

[BILL?]

Also, from playing vs lucario it seems he is really susceptible to cc-ing. At low % i just cc Dtilt his weak stuff into a nasty ZSS combo, and it works far too often, I think it might be because his power series encourages use of jabs and dash attacks as combo starters, neither of which are safe at low% vs crouch cancel. Not sure what moves he has that don't get cc'd but at low % that's how it is.

Example from melee: Sheik has an amazing dash attack, but she can't use it at low % because it won't launch and can get cc'd hard. At mid% it becomes amazing. You have to use the right moves at the right %

 

[TreK]

I'd be okay with CC if it did not make 35 characters basically not have jabs.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A lot of the bigger characters have attacks such as Jabs (in many cases at ANY percent) and fast tilts that would do more to deal with the powerful spacing tools that the more mobile/unpredictable characters have. In the current state of things, "footsies" are heavily skewed toward characters with high mobility/speed and strong CC options (which tend to be low-startup moves that hurt a lot). Sometimes it's a grab, sometimes it's the strongest U-Smash in the game. In some matchups, there are very few options that are both (reasonably) safe in neutral and (reasonably) useful on hit for one or both characters involved, and that contributes to some flowchart-y matchups, particularly in the case of the more imbalanced ones.

Given how varied and expansive the cast is, this is inevitable to a degree, but CC-ing is certainly not doing it (m)any favors, given that it's just another tool that benefits the dominant characters more than others. I think it makes individual, stray hits worth less (not worthless, mind you) as a result, and it leads the game in the direction of what people often talk about with characters having tools that seem specifically designed to get around the most powerful traits. Some people think it's silly that high-level play can sometimes be predicated on landing one grab or hitting one move, but no matter how you feel about it, many characters would not be able to reliably function there otherwise.

It's a really weird situation to think about, because whether it's immediately apparent or not, this significantly changes a -lot- of interactions. Whether it's for better or worse is certainly subjective and very difficult to tell how the metagame would evolve as a result of such a change.

The most obvious difference of removing CC-ing is that very weak attacks would become much more relevant as spacing tools, which, IMO, does a fair amount to balance out a disparity seen in what are considered universally good traits. Bigger characters tend to have larger attacks, which would do more to cover the space they struggle to control/maintain against superior mobility (and, in many cases, general options). Keep in mind that the more mobile characters could take advantage of this as well, but they'd have to reach a little further to do it, but, in my mind, that's great because they control that extra space better to begin with. Having to make a guess in neutral with your Dash Attack or a wavedash -> Jab would be much less daunting because you know the opponent couldn't just option-select react to you by holding Down while still having all his other options intact. Yes, you can shield those options, too, but that severely limits your options, making a bigger trade-off instead of what often amounts to option selects that really hurt for characters that struggle to open people up reliably to begin with.

Anti-CC options would become less coveted for obvious reasons, but when you think about what those tools are, aren't they still quite useful, regardless? Quick and powerful attacks, grabs, various projectiles...Combating an often-prevalent and often-thoughtless (far from always, but, still!) neutral tool is icing on the cake for most of them, all things considered.

I'm not going to list individual characters, but I'd love to hear discussion from players to hear examples of what matchups they see CCing having a significant role in and what could be done otherwise. I'll definitely post more about the negatives to eliminating crouch canceling later (as it's not all rainbows and sunshine), but I'm a bit busy at the moment. Should be free this evening.

 

[DrinkingFood]

CCing affects ROB very heavily.
He revolves a lot on defense around CC dsmash and sometimes CC dtilt/usmash/grab. Mostly 'cause his DD, shield, priority are all pretty garbage.
And he's affected heavily by characters CCing his boost->fair, makes him often need boost->nair or boost->bair cross-ups to get opponents off the ground/stage or into a knockdown.
So on one hand it would worsen his flaw of being rushed from his grounded blindspot, which is above and in front of him, since he wouldn't be able to attempt to CC reckless approaches at the cost of damage and risk of knockdown.
But on the other hand, it would mean he would also have a more potent rushdown game because boost->fair is his quickest to come out and quickest to end boost->aerial and the easiest to follow up except maybe boost->dair.
But he's not so fast on the ground that he can actually rely on being able to DD to bait out moves so he can boost->fair in, he kinda needs to be able to rely on CCing.
I feel he would be worse on the long run and more reliant on being hyper aggressive than he already is.