What would you change to make Ganon high tier or better in general?

[IrkenPPG]

So I use Ganon a lot, don't main him but is my favorite character to play in a "not very competitive match". I think Ganondorf is ok in Smash 4, he has potential to be good. He is not crap like Ike, Charizard, or the Mii Swordfighter. Without making him OP, what would you change about Ganondorf?

 

[Creede]

There have been many of these. I'd say just reduce his start up and end lag on certain moves, and increase his running and air speed. Basically, make him faster overall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The quickest way to make Ganondorf unquestionably high tier is to buff his standing grab range. Really, his biggest problem is a lack of good close range options, and his grab is so short that it leaves him very vulnerable to rushdown. Chances are though this would make Ganon a very polarizing character given he's actually quite good at outspacing many characters.

Really the main buffs I want are fixes to the autocancel frames on F-air so that it properly autocancels in fullhop, a Jab that starts up in at least 6 frames (and isn't laggier than spotdodge...seriously), and less landing lag on D-air (so that it's safe on hit). Ganon is a pretty excellently balanced character as things are right now, and just needs relatively minor tweaks to round out some of his rough areas.

 

[Blobface]

I don't think you could create a high/top tier 'Dorf without making him invalidate certain characters. Even Ganondorf with his Melee jab and an average grab range would quite possibly be unbeatable for certain characters.

And to be honest, he's not that bad. Ganondorf's biggest flaw is a general lack of options at close range, with the rest of his moveset designed to work around that. He spaces people out into his optimal range where he can get insane amounts of damage in. It works fine against a vast majority of the cast, but it just so happens that a decent amount of top tiers can really mess with that gameplan.

So as A2 said, there's not really any buff Ganon "needs" to be competitive, just some quality-of-life buffs to help with specific matchups. I'd also like to add a little buff of my own: Make Dark Dive do straight vertical knockback and give the recoil animation off a successful grab really early IASA frames so you can't be bopped like an idiot for landing a hit. Optionally buff Dark Dives (grab) damage and knockback.

 

[Gold_TSG]

As mentioned, he needs more QoL buffs than true buffs to be the best he can be. Most of his poor match ups are against characters that are naturally going to ruin his day, such as quick characters and projectile users. With proper reads and punishes, he can destroy anyone in the roster bar none, he just needs to work harder for the higher-up prey.

 

[Z1GMA]

Let's say the damage of all of Ganon's moves got doubled - He'd still have problems Vs some of the "ticklers".
What he would need is better Frame Data.

Please use the "How Ganon should be"-thread next time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That stupid ass run.

I'm sorry.

Not sorry

In all honesty just put a reflect property on his jab. And everything would be lovely.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ideally, some form of moderately safe spacing. Lack of options at close range means people rolling behind you and hitting the shield button is a pretty easy strat to trump almost any offensive response he has, but Ganon's biggest issue, by my estimation, is his inability to deal with safe playstyles. Not just defensive, but safe.

I play a guy pretty regularly who uses Robin and Roy. He refuses to ever commit to anything, and 100% of the time waits for me to come to him, in which case, Ganon's only recourse is hard reads. Even Ganon's "safer" spacing tools like DTilt can still be pretty unsafe.

Ganon's got a few dirty secrets which, if figured out, make life pretty rough (not approaching, etc.). Thankfully his massive power puts an asterisk on pretty much every weakness he has, but all the same.

 

[Super_Smasher6]

- make it so you can cancel u-tilt by shielding for example
- make down smash a proper kill move like C.Falcon's down smash! seriously, why is it so weak 2 game in a row?
- better grab range! i still can't believe how lame ganondorf's grab range is despite his size
- make Up-B stronger, not the punch (its fine) but when you actually grab someone, this is too weak IMO
- give super armor to ALL type of warlock punch! (aerial+reverse)


Of all the buff you can possibly imagine, the one i want the most in a better grab range!

 

[jmanup85]

We've covered this alot and we even have a thread for it. My 2 cents (because I 100% agree with A2) is maybe to add transcendent priority to all forms of wizkick to deal with projectiles.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You bring up a good point. Wizkick should have autoguard on the beginning of the move in the air.

In Brawl on startup I could go through both of the Hammer items without taking damage.

 

[Triggerpig]

Yep, better grab range and he'd be so much better, does'nt need to be that much more but atleast let him grab someone when they are literally standing mere centimetres from his face XD.

 

[WwwWario]

Give his Warlock Punch Super Armor throughout all frames, and have it be a One-Hit KO

Nah, increase his grab range. That would really help him a lot.

 

[The Gallows]

Thankfully his massive power puts an asterisk on pretty much every weakness he has, but all the same.

/thread for me
I'm perfectly fine with the way he is. If I don't outplay something, I sometimes still win anyway.

 

[Xinc]

I think we've went past this before.
Here are my two cents:

Increase grab range and decrease grab lag
Make choke not techable
Allow some moves for faster startups/lower cooldown
Better options for approaching and close range
Sped up run

Things that would be welcome but might bork him
Melee Jab
Increased stun and low knockback for up throw
Moar moves with super armor

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ganon would be so much fun if dair had IASA frames right after the animation ended, haha.

 

[Dr. Bread]

i would actually consider giving ganon a faster dash speed first, as well as a better grab range and/or throws, since he has a ****ty combo throw, and no kill-throw.

the second thing would probably be to speed up flame choke in order to make chain chokes a little easier

im gonna be real though ganon's dash is so awkward he looks like he's doing some lazy version of a jog... which is already a lazy version of sprinting which is what dashing is supposed to be.

 

[MisterDom]

Just make him faster. His move set is fine...

 

[Arrei]

He is not crap like Ike

u wot m9?

The things I want most would be... a normal jab combo like most other characters, a better grab, and some less landing lag on his aerials would be pretty swell. Making Wizard's Foot faster would be pretty welcome, too. Controlling him just feels so sluggish and good spotdodgers can just ruin his day like nobody's business.

 

[IrkenPPG]

u wot m9?

The things I want most would be... a normal jab combo like most other characters, a better grab, and some less landing lag on his aerials would be pretty swell. Making Wizard's Foot faster would be pretty welcome, too. Controlling him just feels so sluggish and good spotdodgers can just ruin his day like nobody's business.

That would be the best and most realistic thing to do. He should have lag at the end of his attacks but not from startup.

 

[Muhznit]

I opened up character customization, gave him +19 speed. He can now Thunderstomp like he did back in brawl. ('-' )

 

[Bobert]

Give him his Hyrule Warriors design and make his hair a disjointed hitbox that one hit KO's opponents.

Grab range that isn't the equivalent of a toddlers grab range IRL, auto cancel Fair/Bair and faster run speed.

Would changing his run animation to something that doesn't look ridiculous be considered a buff? Kappa

 

[Panchito]

-Make Wizard's Dropkick his default side special.
-Increase grab range.
-Make jab come out a little faster.
-Give Flame Choke grab armor.

 

[Dr. Bread]

-Make Wizard's Dropkick his default side special.
-Increase grab range.
-Make jab come out a little faster.
-Give Flame Choke grab armor.

but if wizard's dropkick is his default side special, he wont have flamechoke at all

 

[Panchito]

I meant down special. Flame Choke is too good to give up.

 

[ToxoT]

i miss autocancel dair too much, and i think if smash 4 dorf had that it would open up more tech chase options if not combos out of it

 

[Dark Phazon]

So I use Ganon a lot, don't main him but is my favorite character to play in a "not very competitive match". I think Ganondorf is ok in Smash 4, he has potential to be good. He is not crap like Ike, Charizard, or the Mii Swordfighter. Without making him OP, what would you change about Ganondorf?

Ike and Charizard are actually better than Ganon now.
Ike was never bad i say pre buff patch he was decent but beat majority of really good Ikes pre buff patch with Ganon...

 

[Dark Phazon]

- make it so you can cancel u-tilt by shielding for example
- make down smash a proper kill move like C.Falcon's down smash! seriously, why is it so weak 2 game in a row?
- better grab range! i still can't believe how lame ganondorf's grab range is despite his size
- make Up-B stronger, not the punch (its fine) but when you actually grab someone, this is too weak IMO
- give super armor to ALL type of warlock punch! (aerial+reverse)


Of all the buff you can possibly imagine, the one i want the most in a better grab range!

It really does bug me how Falcons Falco Kick...Up B and Down Smash kills but ganons doesnt...

 

[IrkenPPG]

Ike and Charizard are actually better than Ganon now.
Ike was never bad i say pre buff patch he was decent but beat majority of really good Ikes pre buff patch with Ganon...

Maybe Ike is just as good as Ganon but Charizard is just not as good as Ganon. Ganon isn't bad, just not as good as most of the cast

 

[Blobface]

Maybe Ike is just as good as Ganon but Charizard is just not as good as Ganon. Ganon isn't bad, just not as good as most of the cast

Honestly? I think Ganondorf is literally just short of being perfectly balanced right now. There's really not many things one could do at this point to make him more balanced besides a 6 frame jab. Any other significant buffs would make him overpowered against specific characters. Still want my Dark Dive buff though.

The best way to buff Ganon at this point would be to give certain top tiers well-thought-out nerfs. Particularly Sheik, Rosalina, and maybe ZSS could use a few changes* (Villager's recovery nerf is really big against Ganondorf, though it's still a bad matchup). The only thing that still hampers Ganon at this point is having multiple horrible top-tier matchups, and if you made it so he was good enough to go even in these matchups, he himself would start invalidating characters.

*Needle revamp + slight safety nerf, remove Luma's ability to attack out of a grab, and general nerfs to Down and Up-B respectfully. All those nerfs would help Ganon a lot.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Maybe Ike is just as good as Ganon but Charizard is just not as good as Ganon. Ganon isn't bad, just not as good as most of the cast

Charizard is better than Ganon meta-wise as long as Sheik and Rosa are the two best characters in the game. Outside of those two MUs they're pretty even, but those MUs really matter when trying to place well in a decently-sized tourney.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

Personally I'd buff his air mobility. I actually prefer the normal Wizard's Kick, and if he could just recover without the dive kick I'd be almost set.

 

[Roy of Pharae]

no start up lag, a jab that can set up for grabs, give him better grab range, Up B needs actual knockback

 

[MKchouy]

Definitely a better grab like most people said, but if you could double jump, use wizard kick then get your double jump back like you did in melee it would improve his recovery so much. Otherwise I think he is pretty balanced.

 

[adom4]

Give him more range on his grab & make his jab slightly faster, any other buff is a bonus.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Had a thought. Know how we can force movement on aerial FC?

What if we could carry momentum forward and move past an opponent after slamming their face.

Out of danger and more damage.

I mean we get good distance moving away. So why not forward.

 

[Vermanubis]

My thoughts've changed a bit recently. If I could change <one> thing about Ganon, it'd be an untechable choke. Even if it meant suffering some kind of penalty to the move. I think one of the most frustrating things I've encountered against my more experienced opponents in the MU, especially ones with super long tech rolls, is landing 4-5 chokes in death percents, and being able only to follow up with wizkick since everything else is punishable on PS. Even in Brawl, against characters with no guaranteed followups, making reads was a viable way to kill, but against characters like Lucario, Zelda or Ike, if they tech away, they're pretty much guaranteed to live until at least 160+ since nothing but wizkick can catch 'em in time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Make aerial version untechable. Hell give it a bury effect.

The Gerudo tribe knows we need a reason to use volcano kick and WP more.

 

[Blobface]

Make aerial version untechable. Hell give it a bury effect.

The Gerudo tribe knows we need a reason to use volcano kick and WP more.

Aerial version is untechable. It was changed in 1.04 I think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah against good players aerial Flame Choke is sometimes easier to KO confirm from at high percents because they can't tech it, meaning a read roll is a bit easier to chase with DA. Good players also will still delay their wakeup to aerial Flame Choke long enough that you should sometimes try to D-tilt them as well.