What Tier is Cloud?

[ChimaeraUltimo]

Pros:
-pretty heavy (17th heaviest)
-good mobility
-fast attacks
-insane kill power
-amazing ability to rack up damage (who needs combos when you have cross slash?)
-all aerials auto cancel at some point
-can airdodge onto the stage with no landing lag
-above average gimping ability
-has amazing footstool setups on heavier characters
-good projectile that helps him recover
-limit break improves nearly everything when active
-all smash attacks have low endlag


Cons:
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB
-doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB
-poor combo game
-very gimpable recovery
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB

oh and did I mention climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB?


Honestly I think he could potentially be top 15 and maybe even top 10 if his recovery gets a bit of a buff but I doubt he'll every get there because everyone wants easy grab setups and an ungimpable recovery instead of putting in a bit of time to actually learn the character
But hey, a bad recovery didn't stop Ness did it?

First of all, clouds combo game is very strong from what we can tell.
His up-smash has mediocre end lag.
climbhazzard not ledge-snapping is not really a problem, except for newer players(JUST PLAY 30 MINUETS OF MELEE).

Maybe add kill confirms to the pro chart.

Other than that, it is a pretty good chart.

 

[FamilyTeam]

climbhazzard not ledge-snapping is not really a problem, except for newer players(JUST PLAY 30 MINUETS OF MELEE).

Played Melee my entire life and I still find that a problem.

 

[ChimaeraUltimo]

Played Melee my entire life and I still find that a problem.

Hmm... so have I, and I don't mind. try labbing with him for bit, see where his grab box is. His sword should always peek over the ledge when snapping.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hmm... so have I, and I don't mind. try labbing with him for bit, see where his grab box is. His sword should always peek over the ledge when snapping.

Thing is: Very few characters in Melee could snap to the ledge. It was an even playing field.
In this game, almost every single one of them can snap to it from a great distance, Cloud is the one of the few that can't at all. That's a massive disadvantage.

 

[Gemba Board]

Like most of you have already decided, I think it's too early to slide him into a tier list now. I'd give it a couple months and lots of tournament for the meta to settle. Once people learn what options their characters have to gimp empty limit cloud, we'll have an easier time talking about tiers.

BUT. I will note that since cloud has been out, I've played enough of him to feel like dropping marth completely. Marth's role changed from melee to smash 4 for the worst. He can't zone like he used to. But cloud seems to be both hyper offensive and zone-like. He could out space approaching sheiks if the player is decent at it. That's something marth struggles with a lot. If cloud could do everything marth could do but better (recovery aside) I feel more than obligated to switch mains. I'll learn the anti gimp. I'll lab the throw tech. All these cons people are pointing out could be dealt with.

 

[Top Boss]

Cloud will probably be close to high tier once people are smart with him. He relies a lot on baiting and mindgames, because his tools are more than suitable for that kind of playstyle. He has great movement(which is also really tricky), he is insane at catching landings, he can cancel limit break charging, have access to multiple early KO moves, etc. You are going to see results more from the player, NOT the character, since you HAVE TO BE SMART.

 

[TheDrWasMe]

Oh damn, I never expected this amount of attention towards the thread, but yea, I'll say it like I have before, I'm not saying it's really set in stone what your opinion on Cloud is, but I do have an ideal now on what his potential is and such. Really, i can't thank you all enough for voicing out your opinions.

 

[Sonicninja115]

ZeRo made a video about it, and am pretty sure all the high level players say that he is high tier.

Best too wait until Genesis for this discussion though...

 

[Pauleke]

I think it depends on the level of play.

He seems very easy to pick up, but I'm not sure how hard he is to master. His hitboxes tend to be very forgiving and disjointed, but his recovery is very questionable. He seems borderline stompish at low levels of play; I'm seeing some pretty bad players use him to beat some mediocre players on their mains where I'm at. All that said, we haven't seen much high level Cloud just yet, and his recovery will become more and more problematic at high levels. It's what keeps Little Mac checked hard as a mid-tier and I don't doubt that will keep Cloud down as well going forward. That said, he has a lot of neat tricks, and I'm curious where his ceiling is.

My best guess is:

S-/A+ Tier for Locals and Casual play
B+ Tier for High Level Play

This would probably make him skew upward in Tier Lists at least initially, only to come back down as he struggles in majors. I've seen talk of him having a good MU with Sheik, which would alone make a strong case for A- tier at least, but may not win him anything big if he has a bad MU with ZSS or Rosalina(which I have no clue if he has a bad MU with them, just speculating).

 

[Delzethin]

I guess the best character to compare him to is Ike, the other character with a huge sword whose gameplan is based around keeping opponents at arm's length. Cloud has much better ground mobility than Ike, attacks that are generally less laggy, as well as a projectile and surprise early kill potential when he has a Limit Break ready. He's not as solid at keeping people out as Ike is, but he's also less straightforward and has more tricks to fall back on, and in that way he isn't as easy to counter as the big guy.

At the same time, though, Cloud's nonthreatening grab game and awful recovery without having a Limit Break ready can cause trouble. The former, combined with how almost all of his stronger attacks are multihit, means opponents can rely on their shields and he has few answers to it that deal any notable amount of damage. The latter can be crippling against opponents who can edgeguard well.

As it stands...I'd put Cloud somewhere in upper mid tier or maybe the bottom of high, around the 20-25 range. He's definitely good and can hold his own competitively, but he has a couple glaring weaknesses that'll make him very difficult to win tournaments with unless you have a secondary to fall back on for his worst matchups. That said, he looks like he also has a lot of potential as a secondary.

 

[Jrzfine]

For what it's worth Arizona recently had a tournament with 8/10 PR members in attendance and a Cloud got 2nd. Obviously we'll need way more data than that if we want to accurately place him but I personally am impressed that we're already seeing results with him. I eagerly anticipate Genesis 3 to see if any Clouds can make some waves there.

 

[.Shìkì]

I really hope they will patch this game one or two more times... and if they do, they better add a ledgesnap to the recovery, at least for the very end. It's partly because I'm bad, but i have died so many times trying to sweetspot the ledge and fell like 5 millimetres short it's ridiculous.

 

[PapaJ]

I really hope they will patch this game one or two more times... and if they do, they better add a ledgesnap to the recovery, at least for the very end. It's partly because I'm bad, but i have died so many times trying to sweetspot the ledge and fell like 5 millimetres short it's ridiculous.

Then practice. Save your jump and learn when to use Blade Beam for that extra horizontal push. It sucks yeah, but instead of hoping for a patch your better off practicing and applying. Hell it'll make you a better player as well.

 

[.Shìkì]

Then practice. Save your jump and learn when to use Blade Beam for that extra horizontal push. It sucks yeah, but instead of hoping for a patch your better off practicing and applying. Hell it'll make you a better player as well.

Might have ounded worse than it was intended too; I just meant if they buff anything about Cloud later, it should be the recovery. I'll just stop trying to "sweetspot" it, the window is so minimal the threat isn't worth the possible payoff.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Pros:
-pretty heavy (17th heaviest)
-good mobility
-fast attacks
-insane kill power
-amazing ability to rack up damage (who needs combos when you have cross slash?)
-all aerials auto cancel at some point
-can airdodge onto the stage with no landing lag
-above average gimping ability
-has amazing footstool setups on heavier characters
-good projectile that helps him recover
-limit break improves nearly everything when active
-all smash attacks have low endlag
-amazing kill confirms
-that reverse ken combo
-has an answer to everything you can throw at him


Cons:
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB
-doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB
-slightly below average combo game at later percents this doesn't matter at all
-very gimpable recovery
-climhazzard doesn't ledge snap without LB

Climhazzard's sweetspot is about 3 Cloudslengths below the ledge, that's the best I could come up with

And having an answer to literally everything you can throw at him is why I actually consider his matchup with Sheik nearly even at the moment, nothing she can do is safe against Cloud nor is anything he can do safe against Sheik. The matchup from what I can tell is just bait and punish them for doing something unsafe or messing up what they were doing

PS: there, I added/removed some stuff. Happy now?

 

[HFlash]

This thread lost me at "Shiek is a perfect character" and "Cloud has a horrible combo game." Oh and has a better recovery than ." LOL. Also, Marth by far has worse throws than cloud. At least Cloud does 8% on throws (as opposed to 4%) and can combo LB cross slash of of dthrow at very low percentages, and if u read the air dodge, you can follow up depending on the percentage (needs further testing). Furthermore, IF you have your double jump, Clouds second jump goes pretty high, almost luigi high.

 

[PapaJ]

This thread lost me at "Shiek is a perfect character" and "Cloud has a horrible combo game." Oh and has a better recovery than ." LOL. Also, Marth by far has worse throws than cloud. At least Cloud does 8% on throws (as opposed to 4%) and can combo LB cross slash of of dthrow at very low percentages, and if u read the air dodge, you can follow up depending on the percentage (needs further testing). Furthermore, IF you have your double jump, Clouds second jump goes pretty high, almost luigi high.

Not to mention Uthrow can be used to get some limit filled. It has pretty high BKB and ok KBG. Itll probably buy you about one to two seconds of limit charge.

 

[Zalezus]

I feel like a list of Cloud's recovery options and mixups should go on public record so people can be smart about gimps. I'll help out:

Climhazzard (Up-B):

Doesn't snap from the ledge below (see Melee ledge mechanics)
Snaps on the initial thrust before up swing when Cloud's feet are are about level with the ledge is level with the stage. Actually the spacing is really specific... (Snaps from nearly the entire sword-length away)
Snaps on the down swing when Cloud lifts from around level with stage (this portion can meteor smash recovering or stray opponents below)
LB version of course snaps to ledge like the biggest and baddest recoveries but will fail to reach at too far of a horizontal distance.

Blade Beam/LB Blade Beam

Can be wave-bounced forward or backward, maintains vertical height somewhat. Covers the ledge while recovering
LB version will hit ledge, but will activate multi hitboxes there

Cross Slash/LB Cross Slash

Not much horizontal movement, but maintains vertical height. Definitely a situationally useful stall.
Normal version can be activated immediately after jumping from the ledge, covering some would-be gimps. Caution/spacing required
LB version will stage spike anyone a little under the ledge or vulnerable on the ledge.

Second Jump

Rather graceful
Pretty high
Yet taken by a simple read by an intelligent human.

Mix-up your recoveries guys, Cloud is a little better than a weak hit aerial gimp.

 

[Deleted member]

These past days and new stuff about pops up, I changed what I thought about him.

This thread lost me at "Shiek is a perfect character" and "Cloud has a horrible combo game." Oh and has a better recovery than ." LOL.

's Up-B heigh is shorter than 's, but has significantly better jumps and aerial mobility, I didn't point that out.

's worse matchup is against . At worse, she has even matchups.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

These past days and new stuff about pops up, I changed what I thought about him.



's Up-B heigh is shorter than 's, but has significantly better jumps and aerial mobility, I didn't point that out.

's worse matchup is against . At worse, she has even matchups.

Shorter if compared to Mac's grounded version, his aerial version is garbage

 

[Kuraudo]

These past days and new stuff about pops up, I changed what I thought about him.



's Up-B heigh is shorter than 's, but has significantly better jumps and aerial mobility, I didn't point that out.

's worse matchup is against . At worse, she has even matchups.

Only by a slight bit, and that's only from the grounded variation of their respective Up-B's. In which Climhazzard STILL goes a respectful height up. In the air, Cloud's Climhazzard is much better than Little Mac's Up-B for distance too.

You must sweetspot the Up-B with Cloud to have the least chance of getting gimped for it. Otherwise if you keep your second jump, Cloud can get back from just about anywhere, unlike Little Mac. Without a second jump though and not being close to the edge without Limit Break, yeah he's screwed like Mac.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I honestly believe it's a bit too early to determine what tier he is but personally I think he's middle - high at best. He's a very solid character and has a lot of reward if you play him right.

The only thing holding him back is his recovery really but if you're smart about it it's not too big of deal.

 

[Zalezus]

I honestly believe it's a bit too early to determine what tier he is but personally I think he's middle - high at best. He's a very solid character and has a lot of reward if you play him right.

The only thing holding him back is his recovery really but if you're smart about it it's not too big of deal.

I personally cannot see this stressed enough. Intelligent play and decisive mix-ups will save stocks and get early KOs.

Once again, in regard to his recovery sucking or not snapping: see Melee ledge mechanics.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally cannot see this stressed enough. Intelligent play and decisive mix-ups will save stocks and get early KOs.

Once again, in regard to his recovery sucking or not snapping: see Melee ledge mechanics.

That is why Melee is so fast, because of it, , having a poor recovery in this game means you have significantly shorter stocks offstage, where the Top Tiers excel at doing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can't discern his position but go watch Komorikiri play him. It's amazing.

Going by his results right now though I think middle tier is undervaluing it. He's already netted at least 4x the relevant results of Mewtwo's first month in about two weeks and that's with SIGNIFICANT exploration of his character both on the matchup level through analysis video and through the player level.

Cloud has been used to slay high PR players in pretty great droves. Cacogen via Nicko, Nairo via Tweek although some speculate that he wasn't at his best but a win is a win, and of course Komorikiri taking out both Edge and Rain in his latest tournament with Cloud, after losing Game 1 with his Sonic respectively. Komo also makes the ZSS matchup with Cloud look DISGUSTING

TL;DR I don't know where he is exactly but this character is looking seriously fairly viable. A lot more than I expected, honestly.

 

[Zalezus]

That is why Melee is so fast, because of it, , having a poor recovery in this game means you have significantly shorter stocks offstage, where the Top Tiers excel at doing.

"That's why the meta in Melee is so mixup/DI heavy". You fail to keep yourself alive and you have a 3 second stock a la shinespike. I don't think the case is dissimilar here. If you expect your recovery to save your butt then you'll get back-air staged spiked or gimped something silly.

Idk, I'm just speaking from from personal experience but I've avoided slow and telegraphed edge guards by applying some of the same instincts and principles: saving your second jump and not being so damn predictable getting back to the ledge. This game isn't so fast that all of your recovery options can get covered in the time span of a special stall, fade back, or prompt reaction. On the contrary I've spiked would-be gimps with solid spacing and timing of Climhazzard.

EDIT: Just to cover my grounds, yes another player playing a character with a better recovery who understands and capitalizes on your options will have the advantage in an edge guard situation. That said, knowing your opponents options will keep you that much more safe as you decide how best to get to the ledge and ultimately the stage.

 

[SionReaver]

I can't discern his position but go watch Komorikiri play him. It's amazing.

Going by his results right now though I think middle tier is undervaluing it. He's already netted at least 4x the relevant results of Mewtwo's first month in about two weeks and that's with SIGNIFICANT exploration of his character both on the matchup level through analysis video and through the player level.

Cloud has been used to slay high PR players in pretty great droves. Cacogen via Nicko, Nairo via Tweek although some speculate that he wasn't at his best but a win is a win, and of course Komorikiri taking out both Edge and Rain in his latest tournament with Cloud, after losing Game 1 with his Sonic respectively. Komo also makes the ZSS matchup with Cloud look DISGUSTING

TL;DR I don't know where he is exactly but this character is looking seriously fairly viable. A lot more than I expected, honestly.

Do you have a link Komorikiri fighting vs Edge and Rain?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Do you have a link Komorikiri fighting vs Edge and Rain?

Sadly no, I'll try and hit someone up for the SUMABATO VODs as I believe they were streamed, if you check Dabuz's archive you can watch Komori vs. Macho though, if you want an idea of why Cloud vs. ZSS looks like a very doable MU IMO.

 

[Zalezus]

Weight and range.

And they say size doesn't matter

 

[Darxai]

I've been playing Cloud for a little while now and I'm really enjoying him. In my honest opinion, I'd think he'd be somewhere around the High-Mid Tier to Low-High Tier, though where would you guys put him into the tier list? I know he's just been only released for about 4 days, though I'm curious about it. I think I might make him a secondary of mine, though the opinion on where he's placed won't really change my view on him as a whole, I'm interested in seeing what you guys have to say.

Upper Mid to lower high tier no doubt. His aerial mobility is insanely good so his bad recovery isn't EXTREMELY bad for him. Even then, it's a quick and save recovery despite him losing mobility in the air and not much height.