What Ganon needs...

[CORY]

Doesnt ganondorf already have a semi-spike hitbox on his u-air? Or was it just my imagination?

i was thinking the same thing...

 

[Giygacoal]

FYI guys it's not technically feasible to give Ganon a projectile anyway. Well, there's the Ganondouken in Minus, but that doesn't have the physical properties of a true designated projectile. It's only possible to modify the projectiles a character already has, so in Ivysaur's case the projectiles from Brawl were changed, and Solar Beam isn't actually a projectile.

 

[Radical Larry]

Doesnt ganondorf already have a semi-spike hitbox on his u-air? Or was it just my imagination?

Yes, but it's not actually viable because the frames are very specific and the knockback is poor.

In Super Smash Bros., Captain Falcon's U-air semi-spike hitbox frames were the complete second half of the animation (or after his legs face up), and the knockback was rather tremendous at certain percentages.

 

[Radical Larry]

Edit: Sorry for the double post. My computer isn't working well for the pages.

 

[teluoborg]

Ganondorf needs C. Falcon's SSB64 U-Air semi-spike properties.
Talking about new properties...anyone up for Ganondorf having Captain Falcon's SSB64 Down and Side Smashes? It would make him much less of a clone character.

So let me get this straight : you want Ganon to differentiate more from Falcon... by copying Falcon's moves ? Furthermore Falcon's 64 Dsmash is just a copy of Samus', so you want to make Ganon more original by changing his actual "copy" Dsmash for a "copy of a copy" Dsmash ?

Just kidding, but if Ganon were to get a more orginal moveset I hope the PMBR won't be choosing something as poorly designed and out of character as this.


Also the tipman Uair is surely not as strong as Falcon's 64 Uair, but imo that's an unneeded buff. When used correctly it's already very strong and fullfills perfectly its role.

 

[GeZ]

Tipman spike isn't something that needs work. Even if it's not insane right now, it's not what Ganon needs,to quote the OP.

 

[Radical Larry]

To put it out there, if we gave Ganondorf his projectile attack from Minus, let's hope no one calls it Gadoken (know where I'm going?).

 

[Claire Diviner]

How about doing what they did with Samus and make his taunt (down taunt, in this case) affect his moveset. Instead of tweaking a few moves, like Samus, have the taunt change his moveset completely to actually put his sword to good use. Using down taunt again would cause him to sheath his sword and revert back to regular hand-to-hand Ganondorf.

Other than that, I think Ganon could use a wall jump. His recovery, while not terrible, isn't exactly great either, given how predictably linear it is, so a wall jump could help aid in his recovery a bit.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

How about doing what they did with Samus and make his taunt (down taunt, in this case) affect his moveset. Instead of tweaking a few moves, like Samus, have the taunt change his moveset completely to actually put his sword to good use. Using down taunt again would cause him to sheath his sword and revert back to regular hand-to-hand Ganondorf.

Other than that, I think Ganon could use a wall jump. His recovery, while not terrible, isn't exactly great either, given how predictably linear it is, so a wall jump could help aid in his recovery a bit.

I'm not sure where, but this one guy posted a video of a PMBR member's personal mod of PM with Ganon having a custom sword moveset that fit your description. Anybody else know what I'm talking about?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yeah, and it was unbalanced as ****.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Yeah, and it was unbalanced as ****.

Did you see more than I saw, I only saw ganondorf. Were the other characters crap? From what I saw he probably was really OP, but I didn't see the rest of it.
Anyway, it was mostly fascinating because it was different, but if PMBR did something like that it would make many Ganon mains really mad, and some really happy. They would have to be really careful applying changes like that.

 

[GeZ]

Sword mode for Ganon has always been a dumb idea because there'd almost never be a situation where you wouldn't want to use it.

Ganon really only needs a little bit of help with his mobility. None of this silly overhaul stuff.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I just want a good spotdodge. Seriously, why does Link get such a sweet spotdodge and Ganon gets shafted with a 12 frame cooldown? What's that all about?

 

[Claire Diviner]

They can try to take player data involving Ganon's strong and weak points vs. certain matchups and make it where the sword moveset helps what otherwise would be problems for swordless ganon, but also nerfing the great things about swordless ganon as well, so that both movesets balance one another out. Sure it sounds simple on paper and would require a crap ton of metagaming and experimentation to pull off such a balance, but I think the PMBR's talented enough to pull it off in time.

 

[GeZ]

They can try to take player data involving Ganon's strong and weak points vs. certain matchups and make it where the sword moveset helps what otherwise would be problems for swordless ganon, but also nerfing the great things about swordless ganon as well, so that both movesets balance one another out. Sure it sounds simple on paper and would require a crap ton of metagaming and experimentation to pull off such a balance, but I think the PMBR's talented enough to pull it off in time.

I just don't see it being necessary. And I like Ganon the way he is. He needs a little bit of work but a sword seems very un-Ganon to me. I mean he's the Warlock of stomps and sweet NBA ass dunks. I don't see sword fit into that personally.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I just don't see it being necessary. And I like Ganon the way he is. He needs a little bit of work but a sword seems very un-Ganon to me. I mean he's the Warlock of stomps and sweet NBA *** dunks. I don't see sword fit into that personally.

Well, most Smashers know him for that, but in other media, he is a pretty kickass swordsman. He had that big sword that he teased us with in his victory pose in Melee; that sword was used in a Spaceworld 2000 tech demo before he appeared in Melee. Then in Wind Waker, he wielded not one, but two blades against Link (or Toon Link as we know him). Then he swung that cool glowing sword in Twilight Princess, and he was a good sword user there too, and Wind Waker & Twilight Princess predates Brawl. I don't see him as a thunder-stomper, nor do I see him as purely a brawler. I see him a purely a manly man's man with a beard that can impregnate even men who touch it... but I digress.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't need a sword like those projectile throwing fairy boys and stupid good grab range little lordlings. I just need a face to punch and a boot to foot-punch it.

 

[Fortress]

Ganondorf needs a chargeable nB that launches a fist projectile holding a sword you can aim at the ground that destroys flooring and induces tripping in a wide range with a shockwave that activates with side-taunt. Oh, and it has lots of magical effects since it's apparently hard to tell he's a sorcerer.

Ganondorf's pretty solid. If anything, he needs enhancements to what he already has before brainstorming junk to mindlessly tack onto him, like projectiles and swords. Coating him with a bunch of new **** isn't the same as polishing and fixing up things that aren't ideal. You don't fix a problem by not confronting it directly.

Dude doesn't need many major changes, probably just needs a few tweaks to what he's already got.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, true, he doesn't need his sword. He can do well with his fists if they tweak him enough and balance characters further. I'm just saying it would be cool to have him use a sword. He'd be the heaviest sword user, that's for sure (he's heavier than Ike, right?).

 

[Phaiyte]

It goes without saying that his side B is useless

What the actual fuck

 

[CORY]

eeeeh, he came back and confirmed that he meant neutral b, iirc...

 

[Mr.Random]

Ganon with a sword and projectile would broken. My main problem when playing as him is his bad OoS options and below average mobility. They should fix those and leave his bad recovery as a weakness and there we go. Balanced. Maybe a better wavedash (reduce traction), faster jump start (around Mario's), increase dash speed, better dash dance, fast start and endlag on upsmash, increased grab range on up b to make it a better OoS option, better grab in general, these are just ideas. You don't have to listen to any of these.

 

[Phaiyte]

I would cry so many manly happy 'tiers' is Ganon had less traction. The moonwalking would be so real~

 

[ThirstenHunger]

Increased grab range

Better nB - i suggest doing something similar to the u-tilt change...faster animation with a different dynamic....maybe a stunning effect...or a reversal

u-tilt hit boxes connect a little better

less lag out of spot dodge


Those small tweaks would keep him from being OP and still give him the boost he needs

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't know if it is possible for the PMBR, but I would love to see the neutral B like this:
- A counter to grabs: Low startup, mid cooldown, gets hit by non-grab moves
If you grab Ganon while he is in the neutral B then, a little animation will appear and suddenly Ganon grabbed the other character. With Ganon having powerful throws, but a bad grab this would be a nice away to make this move neither a KO move nor just a percentage move, but with a grab as possible reward, a combo starter.
It would adress Ganons weaknesses because low mobility characters often have the problem to get grabbed because they can't run away, so Ganon needs to put out an attack which can be avoided and then be punished.
If he has an option to counter grabs, he won't be as easy to bait and doesn't need to commit to bad moves as early.
Also it is by no means op because it is beatable by for example dash attacks if predicted and can also be baited out. Also Ganon can be punished hard because there will be enough time for a smash attack in most cases and I don't think it could be spammed.
Last but not least, I also feel like it fits for Ganon as Lord of Evil to do such a sneaky, guileful move. Ganon could do his evil laugh when the grab counter was successful, too.

PMBR plz :D

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I don't know if it is possible for the PMBR, but I would love to see the neutral B like this:
- A counter to grabs: Low startup, mid cooldown, gets hit by non-grab moves
If you grab Ganon while he is in the neutral B then, a little animation will appear and suddenly Ganon grabbed the other character. With Ganon having powerful throws, but a bad grab this would be a nice away to make this move neither a KO move nor just a percentage move, but with a grab as possible reward, a combo starter.
It would adress Ganons weaknesses because low mobility characters often have the problem to get grabbed because they can't run away, so Ganon needs to put out an attack which can be avoided and then be punished.
If he has an option to counter grabs, he won't be as easy to bait and doesn't need to commit to bad moves as early.
Also it is by no means op because it is beatable by for example dash attacks if predicted and can also be baited out. Also Ganon can be punished hard because there will be enough time for a smash attack in most cases and I don't think it could be spammed.
Last but not least, I also feel like it fits for Ganon as Lord of Evil to do such a sneaky, guileful move. Ganon could do his evil laugh when the grab counter was successful, too.

PMBR plz :D

That would be a really interesting mechanics innovation, I don't know if they can do that -just because nothing like it has been done before. It gives him some protection in close quarters while leaving his weakness to projectiles intact. It would definitely have to be punishable, but I don't think the cooldown time should be that dramatic. A smash attack? It should have cooldown time, but I don't think smash attacks should be easy to get off if it misses.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

This is Ashinda's Triforce Ganon mod for PM; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeM6DsrjDtY&feature=youtu.be
If you fast forward to 2:21, you'll see his magic mode's down B. Now what if that becomes his Neutral B?

In action (I use the mod) it provides great follow ups in the air and also provides an approach from the bottom, it also allows a nice way to close in the distance on projectile users. The aerial version acts like just another aerial but when hits the ground provides a nice area knock back effect while also providing Ganon another nice approach from the top.

In summery this move provides;

1) new approach tools (top or bottom)
2) new ways to follow up in the air
3) a way to work around projectiles
4) (*only when executing from the ground) gives Ganon nice aerial mobility

Not only this move is canon (Oot) but it would actually fit Ganon's current play style and would enhance it nicely and would provide useful tools while not being op.
Also this would allow the use of Warlock Punch animation (and darkness effect) to be used for his F-smash getting 2 unique moves in 1.

What do you guys think?

(on a side note: If it was up to me, I would actually replace his Up-smash and down smash with his magic mode counter parts. Up-smash works exactly the same as his current one while being unique and fitting to his character, and the down smash is just plain better. but that's a whole different realm of discussion)

 

[MrTea]

i like magic mode's u and dsmash.
That magic neutral B looks sexy 0.0

That grounded down B looks rediculous though...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

That would be a really interesting mechanics innovation, I don't know if they can do that -just because nothing like it has been done before. It gives him some protection in close quarters while leaving his weakness to projectiles intact. It would definitely have to be punishable, but I don't think the cooldown time should be that dramatic. A smash attack? It should have cooldown time, but I don't think smash attacks should be easy to get off if it misses.

I wasn't thinking about that kind of G&W up-smash smash attack xD But if you start charging while the grab reflect is on and then release on the cooldown a smash attack as punish should be possible. By the way just going for a grab after the animation ends is also possible with a read.
I do not know about the technical limitations though so... who knows.

 

[Defile]

Replace the Warlock Punch with something actually useful outside of free for alls (preferably a projectile that gives Ganon more approach options). And give him a new recovery, hopefully the portal from Ashinga's awesome sword mod. A new up-tilt would be nice.

 

[teluoborg]

Projectiles don't give approach options.
The Utilt is actually quite good, very effective against spacies.
Ganon's recovery is fine, save for the ridiculous lag on both his up B and side B when he lands on the stage with them.

 

[GeZ]

based teluoborg

 

[Defile]

Projectiles don't give approach options.

I disagree.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Projectiles don't give approach options.
The Utilt is actually quite good, very effective against spacies.
Ganon's recovery is fine, save for the ridiculous lag on both his up B and side B when he lands on the stage with them.

Yeah, Ganondorf's recovery is fine. Except for what you mentioned. And there is the fact that it is very linear and predictable. Oh, and Ganon doesn't have a hitbox except at the end. Yes, he does have a grab box, but it can be easily trumped. As far as recoveries go on their own it is effective. But when put into a competitive scene, it is pretty bad.

And mario's fire ball is the perfect approach tool, same with Falco. Granted, not all projectiles are approaches, but don't say they don't give them. (This is not an argument for a projectile on Ganon, just pointing it out)

 

[GeZ]

And mario's fire ball is the perfect approach tool, same with Falco. Granted, not all projectiles are approaches, but don't say they don't give them. (This is not an argument for a projectile on Ganon, just pointing it out)

Projectiles can open up your opponent for approach but that in and of itself is the only approach option a projectile can give, and very few projectiles function like that, and Ganon don't need no stinkin projectile. Ganon should just be given projectile properties on all of his moves. That'll teach those damn space animals.

 

[CORY]

but then... they could just shine your move back into you... D :

 

[Fortress]

Projectiles can open up your opponent for approach but that in and of itself is the only approach option a projectile can give, and very few projectiles function like that, and Ganon don't need no stinkin projectile. Ganon should just be given projectile properties on all of his moves. That'll teach those damn space animals.

No, you're wrong, shut up, Ganondorf needs four magic projectiles, a giant fist slam that breaks the main platform of the stage, sword attacks on all normals, three kinds of hover, more magic, and a mullet.

Projectiles don't give approach options.

Projectiles force a response from an opponent without giving up your own position, which more often than not opens up approach options.

 

[teluoborg]

Projectiles are mid to long range zoning tools, but unless they give a crazy amount of hitstun like Link's boomrang or have absolutely no lag like Falco's lasers you can't use them as an approach.

Not that I don't want Ganon to not have a projectile with massive hitstun and no lag. Like, short hop fast falled sword throws, with the sword being multihit of course.

Also I'm seconding the down B that breaks the main stage.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, a projectile forces your opponent to deal with something that is not you directly. In which case it is right in which they are forced to respond to it. However, a projectile must be beneficial to the user in the time frame by which the opponent has dealt with the projectile. In this way, they give you a method to approach provided the projectile is good enough. I would not call boomerangs good projectiles. Bombs probably. Arrows are horrible. Fireballs/pills are good given some start-up time (you can walk/run with the projectile. Lasers are too good. Needles I have no idea about.

Swords are the only good close range projectile though :D

 

[j-slo-3]

The most basic thing that Ganon needs is an extended grab reach.

Because for someone labeled as the "Master of punishes", he doesn't seem to be able to punish a damn thing OOS unless it's BLATANTLY unsafe. (Startup frames are a ***** on his aerials.)

And his grab reach is one of the worst in the game. He can't shield grab anything that's not balls deep in his shield.

I mean, I'm sure they could give him some cool stuff involving the replacement of his Ganon Punch, but I'd prefer that he can actually punish more things that make contact with his shield.

I know it's not likely, but a man can dream.

I completely agree with this. Gannon Can't hardly do anything OOS and his grab range is just laughably bad. I know people say that Falcon has a similarly bad grab, but Falcon is soo much faster and has a good JC grab so it's not that bad of a problem for Falcon.