What do you think of clone characters?

[Yoshister]

I've put up this thread so we can all explain why we like or dislike clones, along with discussing clone characters in general and individually (Specific characters).

What is a clone character?
"A clone is a character with a moveset and physics that are considerably similar to another character's. Often, the clone's moveset will have a few tweaks made, and may have their physics altered to a degree, but on the whole the characters are similar and typically have the same special move mechanics, to such a degree that both characters can be played successfully using a very similar or even identical play style."
"Semi-clone is a term used as for characters who share some of their moveset with another character, with some similarity in physics, but have enough differentiating moves and characteristics that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate. "Semi-clone" status can differ among player's minds depending on their basis of the term; for example, one basis for dubbing a character a semi-clone would be their differences in Special moves from whichever character they are clones from. This process of a clone breaking away from its roots and establishing its own identity as it divergently evolves is known in the Smash community as Luigification, named after how Luigi originally was a clone of Mario but eventually came into his own in both the Super Mario and Smash Bros. series." - Smash Wiki.

What do you think of clone characters?
I personally like them because they add to the roster, generally play and feel different, and are quick and easy to develop (Which is why I want Pichu and Young Link to come back as Smash 4 DLC).

Note
Also, please don't flame others for dissagreeing with you. I'd like discussion to be civil here.

 

[Reila]

I don't mind clones, but it is kinda lame when they are added to the roster mostly for personal bias of the creator. Examples: Dark Pit from Sakurai's newest baby (Kid Icarus Uprising) and Lucina (Sakurai's bias towards Fire Emblem is as clear as a crystal), two pointless additions. Now Lucas (not a "pure clone", but still) was a great addition and he came to represent an unrepresented game (Mother 3), Wolf (again, not a pure clone) adds variety to the game (not many antagonists in the roster, plus he plays VERY different from Fox even if his moveset is based on Fox's moveset) and Toon Link also represents the Cartoon-like Zelda games, though honestly considering most Zelda games have Cartoon-like visuals, I find it bizarre that Toon Link, a clone, is the only character representing these games. Ganondorf is like Wolf, Roy is as pointless as Lucina, but at least he comes from a game without representation (though it isn't even a very popular game) and Falco, well... If Star Fox had more non-clone characters I would find his presence in Smash pretty pointless, but that's not the case... Now that I think about it, Star Fox is very poorly represented in Smash, huh?

tl;dr: Clones are fine, but some clone characters in Smash do more harm than good to the roster imo.

 

[Kenith]

I love clones.
More characters = more fun.

 

[Magikarpow]

All Clones are fine.


ᴱˣᶜᵉᵖᵗ ᴰᵃʳᵏ ᴾᶦᵗ⋅⋅⋅

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I don't like clones. Several of the challenges involve "do X with all characters," so the clone makes you repeat the task with a character - invariably one that I'm not good with.

The only time I am okay with clones are when they are sufficiently separated (Luigi vs. Mario) that it does feel different to use the characters. But that's tenuous at best - I even used to be okay with Ganondorf, but I feel he's not getting a proper moveset like he should now, especially after the beast he was in Hyrule Warriors.

One thing that really annoys me about clones is when a clone of one of my favorites makes it so my main isn't unique. I main Link, and I'd love to see Toon Link keep moving away - maybe by getting some Wind Waker specials and a new final smash (or leaving altogether; I don't like him). Right now, he just seems to be another version of my main in an art style I hate.

Finally, I don't like that they do take dev time - not the amount it would take to make a new character, but some - which could have gone elsewhere. Ganondorf could have gotten a different victory theme to match Bowser's rock version, but instead Dark Pit did. Toon Link could have gotten a unique crowd chant so as not to become the ONLY set of characters EVER to share a chant, but instead the clones got their own. They could have used some dev time to check that animations were appropriate (check Link's face when he hoists the special flag and tell me that's not incredibly sloppy), but they instead separated alt costumes out into clones.

I am impressed that Roy was decloned so well from Melee to SSB4, it made him much more fun to play.

 

[SpiritofSpeed]

I don't really mind clones as they help expand the roster further. But maybe don't clone one character more than once.

 

[jamesster445]

Clones are ok so long as they have different play styles. My favorite clone from Melee is probably Roy Because even if he had the same moves and stats of Marth, the nature of their sweet spots made them different beasts. Roy was more of a rush down character while Marth was all about footsies.
And the clones from Melee that went to Brawl further had their play styles expanded on, Ganondorf became slower but benefited greatly from punishing mistakes, Toon Link became more agile than Young Link etc. the fact that their animations were luigified was a plus as well. I can't see Twilight Princess Ganon jumping around like Falcon so I'm glad his animations reflected that. I almost didn't like Ganon in Project M for this reason, but they gave his OOT look so the disconnect was saved.
Which is why I really don't like the clones of Smash 4. Lucina doesn't really benefit from having the same stats as Marth without the tipper. As sword wielded you want to use your range. And Smashboards it self decided that we didn't need a separate folder for Pit and Dark Pit.

 

[Wintropy]

​

I love clones.

I agree with Kenith: more characters, more fun!

 

[Putuk]

I'm pretty fine with most clones (I secondary a semi-clone, I better!), but with characters like & ...
I dunno, Lucina from what I've heard is really just "worse Marth" and Dank Pit has such minute differences from Pit it's hard to even notice if you don't play with Smash Balls on.

It's not even that I mind them. They likely took very little effort to implement, so they arn't eating up anyones space. I just don't think about them much, since I don't really care for the characters.

 

[xWolfiex]

I don't mind clone and semi-clone characters, as long they in the roster.

 

[wizrad]

The only clones I've ever had problems with are Dark Pit and Lucina. Not only are they straight up copy/paste clones, they could've been so much more. Why doesn't Dark Pit just have Brawl Pit's moveset? Why does Lucina have to be Marth when she's more than that? It's frustrating. I like what they did with Roy for his DLC, changing some moves completely (dair, u tilt, f tilt, f smash), others slightly (fair, probably more), and changing general attributes a lot (accentuating Roy's fast falling speed and making him faster than Marth). I honestly don't consider him a clone anymore. The only true clones on the roster are Dark Pit, Lucina, and Doc. I still want to see them given a chance at uniqueness.

Also WOLF WAS NEVER A CLONE UGH WHY DONT PEOPLE GET THIS. He was a very distant semi clone of Fox, all I can remember them sharing was specials, and even those were very different. Brawl Falco was a much closer clone.

 

[Amberloo]

Are you actually asking why Dark Pit doesn't use the three sacred treasures as his moveset? Do you really need an explanation on why he wouldn't use those? I mean, I wish he would have utilized different weapons from Uprising for his specials (like maybe his freaking staff, or some claws or a cannon), but seriously, he's the anti-hero. He's not Palutena's goody-goody.

I do think Lucina should have had more changes than just balancing the sword's damages. Heck, even her default specials could have just been some of the custom ones by default (3122 would be the best, imo) to differentiate her from Marth a little bit better.

I'm pretty open to clones and mostly fairly accepting (Ganondorf is an exception, I absolutely HATE Smash's version of him), but I'm also super supportive of them de-cloning them as much as possible. For example, I would love to see Toon Link utilize more unique weaponry from his games, such as the Deku Leaf or Grappling Hook.

 

[SmashShadow]

I dislike clones because they seem like a shallow attempt to fatten up the roster. I especially hate certain types of clones though being the ones that are just the same character. Doctor Mario, Young Link, and Pichu are all just different versions of the same character and don't really add anything that the original doesn't. I'm less hateful toward Toon Link but that's mainly because his appearance differs a lot from the original. I just hate that they use him as another version of Link instead of as a Toon game representative. Instead of giving him what the original Link already has, weapons like the gust jar, deku leaf, or skull hammer should've been added. I also don't like that certain characters such as Ganondorf and Dark Pit have so much to pull from and none of it is utilized. If Ganondorf had never been added as a last minute clone in Melee, you can be sure he wouldn't have this moveset right now. And as to Lucina, the fact that Roy exist kinda makes her irrelevant because we don't need 2 clones of the same character.

 

[ShionKaito438]

You seriously insulted Melee Falco in the first option. Although Fox and Falco share almost all of their animations in Melee, Fox and Falco play completely different. Falco is probably the most unique clone in Melee when you compare clones to their original characters. I would've preferred Falco stay a clone, I hate Brawl/Smash 4's Falco.

That aside, I really have nothing against clones. Although I must say, Dark Pit is pretty lazy as far as clones go, his only notable differences are his neutral B and side B, which are still pretty identical to Pit's.

One last statement on what I think about clones; they are better if they cannot be played the same as their original character (Examples: Roy, Falco). Clones that don't have many notable differences from their original characters (Dark Pit, Lucina) would be better off as alternate costumes.

 

[PhantomShab]

The only clones I currently can't stand are Ganondorf, Dark Pit, and Lucina.

But other than that, quantity over quality I always say.

I would've preferred Falco stay a clone, I hate Brawl/Smash 4's Falco.

Ugh.

 

[ShionKaito438]

Ugh.

Care to explain your response?

 

[candyissweet]

It would be cool if all the current clones could become semi-cloned. In contrast to everyone else, the only clone I really dislike is Dr. Mario because he's the same person as Mario, and I don't like having one character take up two spots in the roster. If I were to change them, I would give Dark Pit Pit's Brawl moveset, change Lucina's special moves, and maybe make Dr. Mario's vitamin fireballs heal you. I'm okay with semi-clones, and I hope Wolf comes back.

 

[ShionKaito438]

Roy is as pointless as Lucina

Let me break that down.



Differences from :
Does not have the tipper mechanic and does even damage in all spots of her sword.



Differences from :
Sweetspot is the center of the sword instead of the tip
Unique Up B
Functionally different Down B
Functionally different Side B
Unique Standard B
Unique tilts (besides dtilt) and jab
Mostly unique aerials
Unique forward smash
Functionally different Up Smash

Roy brings a lot more to the table than Lucina, and stating different is nothing but a fallacy.

 

[PhantomShab]

Care to explain your response?

You want reverse progress because of what I'm guessing is Melee nostalgia.

I for one enjoy how fun current Falco is to play.

 

[ShionKaito438]

You want reverse progress because of what I'm guessing is Melee nostalgia.

I for one enjoy how fun current Falco is to play.

Guessed wrong. Contrary to you, I find more fun in Falco as a clone. I feel alienated when I play decloned Falco, he's too different and doesn't feel like the same character.

 

[MrBond]

I could have sworn I read somewhere in early 2014 or before Smash4 came out that Sakurai mentioned he was going to declone all clone characters (so we wouldn't have Falcondorf) but instead I saw more clones show up in this game (Dr. Mario [lel], Lucina [Marth], Dark Pit [side-B]

I know his intention was to buff up the roster with extra characters at the last minute, but I still kinda feel cheated out of a few characters. Also yes, I know Lucina's swordplay differs from Marth, I know Dr. Mario is slower but more powerful than regular Mario, and everyone always says Dark Pit is completely different than Pit [although I can't tell because I don't play as them and only play against Dark Pit when my friend wants to use him], yada yada etc.

I mean, I wish Ganondorf could have been given his taunt sword as a weapon, I mean come on

Also, I know other clones like Falco have been there since Melee. But I feel like Falco is much different than Fox (much slower, F-air actually does a lot of damage, reflector is thrown, etc.)

TLDR: Whatever, I can't do anything about it.

 

[PhantomShab]

Guessed wrong. Contrary to you, I find more fun in Falco as a clone. I feel alienated when I play decloned Falco, he's too different and doesn't feel like the same character.

By "the same character", you mean Fox.

That was kind of the point of changing Falco up.

 

[A Distant Demon]

most of the clones wouldn't be playable if they weren't clones. And when Falco is one of my favorite smashers ever and Lucina was one of my most wanted for smash 4 I can't complain. Dark Pit is pretty darn cool too

 

[ShionKaito438]

By "the same character", you mean Fox.

That was kind of the point of changing Falco up.

Funny.
Fox and Falco have completely different playstyles in Melee. Fox is best for horizontal KOs while Falco is better at vertical KOs. Here's a good example: Fox's dair is a multihit "drill" while Falco's is a single hit spike used for downward KOs. Despite sharing the same animation, the two moves are nothing like each other. This can be applied to many of Fox and Falco's moves. I believe that Falco was already a unique character, even as a clone and his declone was completely unnecessary.

 

[PhantomShab]

Fox and Falco have completely different playstyles in Melee.

That's all well and good but I really don't care. They shared 100% the same animations. Sakurai himself acknowledged them as clones in Melee.

 

[Miikon]

I have nothing against clones if their playstyles are different.
Lucina plays differently from Marth as she can be more aggressive, whereas Marth have a more hit and miss playstyle due to the tipper. But I prefer the new Roy over Lucina.
Dark Pit was a waste of time (even though I use him more than Pit).
Doctor Mario would have been better as a costume, but due to his separation in Melee, he got a separate spot on the roster. And thus we can already predict that Dark Pit (and maybe Lucina) wont return in the future even as a Pit (or Marth) alt, unless the future developer(s) of Smash wants the community and fans to hate them.

 

[Mario123311]

I'm fine with Semi-Clones like Luigi or even simpler ones like Young Link, Pichu or even Ganondorf for that matter. ((And Dr. Mario)) as they have something that makes them feel different from the said character they are based off of.

I am NOT fine with carbon clones like Dark Pit and Lucina though, as they don't even have a gimmick or something that makes them feel different than who they copied. Seriously, They should have been costumes. The only reason Dr. Mario comes back is because he retains his Melee playstyle and moveset. [Plus he is stronger and has worse recovery like intended in Melee originally] Sakurai already hates Melee Mario for some reason and wants him to have a practically useless Down B these days sadly. ((Plus the Mario Tornado as his down ariel just looks... Strange IMO))

 

[AnonymousMoon]

I think people underestimate clones
- They are easy to develop
- They provide a similar play style to their base character but are different enough to provide a different experience (SOME more than others and some not at all)
- Throughout the games, they grow their own unique attributes which further separate them from their base character
While I will say that Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit (in that order) are not very different from their base, they were planned as costumes XD so one should find this is actually pretty generous to the character considering. I might get some burn for this, but I believe Lucas (and possibly Roy) was cut from the base game because he was in the awkward position of being unique (and requiring more work) from the "forbidden 3" Smash 4 clones while at the same time being low priority because he was still a clone. In short, I am okay with clones as long as theydo not take enough development time as a regular character and are actually "icing on the cake

For example, since Dark Pit and Lucina were last minute additions, I "give them a pass" but in the potential next addition, their differences from the base better be expanded

 

[ShionKaito438]

That's all well and good but I really don't care. They shared 100% the same animations. Sakurai himself acknowledged them as clones in Melee.

Uh, you're being kind of harsh...I never said Falco wasn't a clone, I said he was unique enough as a clone and I liked him better as a clone. You are entitled to an opinion and so am I, but you are coming off as really rude saying stuff like "I don't care". You could've just not responded to me in the first place, your " Ugh" really didn't make for a meaningful conversation starter.

 

[Yoshister]

Guessed wrong. Contrary to you, I find more fun in Falco as a clone. I feel alienated when I play decloned Falco, he's too different and doesn't feel like the same character.

Huh. I'm the opposite. I can't play Melee Falco because he doesn't have his differences from Fox in that game.

 

[littleuniverse]

I know there's a slight difference to dark pit but he should have just been an alternate costume. Imagine shadow link being a separate character but no additional moves. Lucina I feel should have been an alternate costume. Correct me if I'm wrong but in fire emblem, doesn't Lucina impersonate Marth? I don't mind clones as long as they have changes like Luigi or Falco. If they're almost EXACTLY the same, I feel like it's taking away the chance for another character from a different line of games to be part of the smash party.

 

[AnonymousMoon]

I know there's a slight difference to dark pit but he should have just been an alternate costume. Imagine shadow link being a separate character but no additional moves. Lucina I feel should have been an alternate costume. Correct me if I'm wrong but in fire emblem, doesn't Lucina impersonate Marth? I don't mind clones as long as they have changes like Luigi or Falco. If they're almost EXACTLY the same, I feel like it's taking away the chance for another character from a different line of games to be part of the smash party.

Hello, littleuniverse! I don't mean to shoot you down, but I want to point out that Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were all last-minute additions. Mewtwo was probably the next character on the list but even without the likes of those three, Mewtwo would not have finished. Of course, I could be full of **** and could not have any idea what I'm talking about. My two cents is that since they're last minute simple additions, to give them a pass. But if they are in the next potential game and have remained unchanged (unlike that of the surviving Melee clones) then I would be mad that they were "planned" ahead of time. If that makes any sense of course.

 

[LuluTheBean]

Sakurai has stated characters like Dark pit and Lucina were originally going to be alts like Alph, but he decided to make them characters just to add a bit more diversity to the roster. Be grateful for clones.

 

[Miikon]

Sakurai has stated characters like Dark pit and Lucina were originally going to be alts like Alph, but he decided to make them characters just to add a bit more diversity to the roster. Be grateful for clones.

The problem is see with Lucina and Dark Pit is that their chances for returning in future installments is under 1%, while Alph's chances of returning either as an Olimar alt or as his own clone is a coin flip, which outcome depends on the developers stance on alternative costumes.

 

[Arcadenik]

Personally, I'm fine with the clones now than I was back in the Melee years. I think it's because back then, we had 26 characters (we have 55 now) and 7 of them were clones or semi-clones (we have 9 now)... it almost felt like there were too many similar characters back then especially when compared to Smash 64 where we had only one clone. I think that as long as the percentage of clones is 20% or less (preferably less than 10% like it was in Smash 64), I will be okay with the clones. It isn't like they took up precious development time... they were added in after Sakurai's team were finished with the game and only wanted to add in the finishing touches.

Smash 64 Original Characters (11) = 92%


Smash 64 Clones / Semi-Clones (1) = 8%


Melee Original Characters (19) = 73%


Melee Clones / Semi-Clones (7) = 27%


Brawl Original Characters (33) = 85%


Brawl Clones / Semi-Clones (6) = 15%


SSB4 Original Characters (46) = 84%


SSB4 Clones / Semi-Clones (9) = 16%

 

[Lord-Zero]

While Sakurai's reasoning could be justified it's still questionable at best. (Thinks of Chrom as an ordinary swordsman that lacks unique characteristics and then makes Lucina a straight-up Marth clone with her only "uniqueness" being the lack of tipper mechanic. His reason? He wanted a novice-friendly version of Marth) These last set of clone characters were pretty much there to fatten up the roster. I prefer quality over quantity. Poor Ganondorf, he has moves from the Zelda series that could be turned into a nice moveset for Smash but...I guess fear from Falcondorf mains getting mad was too much. If anything, I guess he could add a second Ganondorf (that ISN'T Toon Ganondorf) that could have a proper moveset like the Hyrule Warriors version of him.

 

[Murlough]

I didn't vote because I disagree with the choices.

Lucina isn't a 100% clone. The mechanics in her attacks do create a different style from Marth that make her valid as her own character even if the moveset is copy pasted. She is still altered in a way to make her unique in a way.

Dark Pit on the other hand....I'm not a fan. I don't have a problem with him as a character but they really should have added some more changes to his arsenal as opposed to Pit.

Dark Pit is the only character that is TOO "clonish" in my opinion. Everyone else is cool.

 

[~Skelly~]

Honestly, I really don't care that there are clones in these games, as long as there is some kind of justification for it. For example: because of some mechanics like his height differentiate him from , and that he represents different stylized games from the Zelda franchise.

I'm perfectly fine with most of the clones but the only ones I can't stand are ,, and.

I don't like because it's just, but weaker and it can hurt itself with its own attacks.

I don't like or not just because they are virtually identical to the originals, but because I don't like THEM in general (but that's another debate for another time).

 

[Lord-Zero]

mainly because if you think about it, her being a clone makes sense kinda provided that you played Awakening and knew her character.

Her Smash incarnation made her look like she's this huge Marth impersonator up to using his style when in Awakening, her time as "Marth" was very short lived and she knew pretty much nothing about Marth besides his name and status as the Hero-King. The fact that she's pretty much Marth with long hair doesn't help either and her clone status and Roy's Luigified status is part of the reason on why the FE characters get the hate they get. Ike and Robin are the only FE characters in Smash that have been spared from having the Marth template. The only good thing I like about her would be her alts which include MATCHING HAIR COLORS for all of them.

 

[LuffyLink]

Honestly I'm fine with clones, except Toon Link and Ganondorf.
is, in my opinion the worst clone of the series because he had so much potential for a unique moveset (Dark Pit too but at least, he was a bonus) with some of his weapons from the Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Track.
As for , it's different, I like his moveset but I hate the fact that he's a clone of someone who has nothing to do with him since MELEE. I hope they will make another Ganondorf with his own moves.

Like Murlough, I find much less "clonish" than because she has a play style different from Marth even though their moves are the same. Dark Pit on the other hand has only 3 attacks with differents properties (if you don't count the Final Smash) but the rest of his moves are completely identical to 's but like I said earlier, I don't mind him because he's a bonus (and like him more than Pit).

Personally, I really want to be back but with an entirly new moveset .
I don't understand why people think is a clone of as well. All of his attacks are completely different and 3/4 of his specials have different properties (the down B is the exception).