What attacks do good players avoid using?

[Crystanium]

I've noticed professional Mario players don't use fireballs very often. Or that's what I've noticed about Ally's and Rice's Marios. I noticed in the Rosalina & Luma room that someone said new players abuse that Luma launch attack. In this thread, I'd like input of what separates good players from poor players in terms of what is utilized more and what is utilized least.

 

[Uncle Tonkle]

Generally good players will avoid moves that leave them exposed for too long. Generally moves with a lot of endlag should only be used when you're sure the opponent won't shield or avoid them, or if they can't punish you for just throwing it out.

Generally, don't use a move if you're going to get hit for using it. All this is quite situational depending on spacing.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

's up tilt.

But seriously, good players tend to avoid moves that have a lot of lag unless they have many practical uses (like tether grabs), as they can easily be punished for missing, or even before the hitbox comes out. Most characters have some sort of combo/string of quick moves that would do the same amount of damage anyway, so slow moves are seldom worth using. Even slow killing moves (certain aerials, charged smash attacks, some special moves) are generally only used with reads or easy punishes, and quicker, not quite as powerful moves (most killing aerials, uncharged smash attacks, other special moves) are preferred for killing most of the time. Plus, using multiple quick moves instead of a slow move not only pushes more moves off the stale queue, but it also stales combo moves, which are good to stale, rather than kill moves, which are bad to stale. In short: avoid laggy moves when you can.

 

[Crystanium]

Good advice from both of you. Yes, Ganondorf's u-tilt is a poor choice. I was thinking more of being attack specific, such as Samus' f-smash or Ike's up-B. What moves should be used in place of attacks like those.

 

[Jeronado]

I don't think you should look at it as never use X move because I think for a lot of less used moves there's a time and place for them. For example you should probably never use Falcon Punch, but if you saw Tearbear vs FOW even really bad moves can find a use if you have a read on someone or you're in the right spot.

I think Risk vs Reward is what you should be considering, using Samus' Fsmash as an example if your opponent is at low percents like say 30% where the move isn't going to kill the reward is small and the risk if it doesn't connect is high. If your opponent is at percents were Fsmash will kill and you have a read on your opponent's getup option, or maybe a bad air dodge then the risk vs reward is more favorable and it might just be worth going for.

Admittedly some moves are strictly outclassed by another tool in a character's kit, like Mewtwo's Ftilt is kinda outclassed by his dtilt although you can pivot ftilt which dtilt can't do. ZSS dtilt is another move that kinda doesn't serve much of a purpose, but it's worth noting that the move has a lot of range.

 

[Crystanium]

Good read, Jeronado.

 

[mario123007]

In my opinion there's not much move that are avoid using, but rarely use.
Moves with lots of lags are the ones that are rarely use. It depends on your read when it comes to how to use it. Many moves that people consider should avoid can be a surprise attack sometimes.

 

[Arthur97]

To be fair, I have actually landed 's uptilt. Though, that may say more about my opponents.

 

[Uncle Tonkle]

To be fair, I have actually landed 's uptilt. Though, that may say more about my opponents.

To be fair, it's a sick move against some recoveries. Fox in particular really hates Ganon uptilt. Well, either that or our local Fox is super fraudulent.

 

[Arthur97]

True, if you can force them into a position where they have no choice then it can be effective.

 

[Azneli]

Counters most of the time. They are good for mix ups but in high level play it is too risky to use.

 

[GuffMcGufferson]

As a R.O.B. main, I know for a fact that his side B, Arm Rotor, is rarely used by good players. It's really only used if you wanna be risky with your options or you want to reflect a projectile.

 

[Breezyspeed]

For toon link we usually don't use up-special in gwneral since it hsd ending lag, but it's still useful for punishing rolls
Another example is Mera knights's dimensional cape attack (when you hold down the button)
I usually see why people don't use this other than punishing stuff or if it's for the sole purpose of mind games (without the attack)
And one final example is the falcon punch.........do I even need to explain why this isn't used?

 

[Dade]

..


Sonic.

For toon link we usually don't use up-special in gwneral since it hsd ending lag, but it's still useful for punishing rolls
Another example is Mera knights's dimensional cape attack (when you hold down the button)
I usually see why people don't use this other than punishing stuff or if it's for the sole purpose of mind games (without the attack)
And one final example is the falcon punch.........do I even need to explain why this isn't used?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSsWTJV4SpI

Falcon punch is used 100% for style points and is a 100% viable option to any battle.

 

[Axel311]

Dedede's down B. It's so mind blowingly bad, it has to be the worst move in the game.

But yeah what others said. Generally it's all about the risk/reward, so unless you can get a lot of reward out of it generally avoid laggy moves.

It's all situational though. For example, Dedede's fsmash. Super punishable and should rarely be used, but since it can kill super early it's not a bad idea to throw one out as a mixup in the right situation one time a set or so when you know you will KO someone at 40% if it lands. The huge payoff justifies it not landing very often.

 

[flamer180]

I know people will be like "YOU NOOB!" and "YOU DONT PLAY COMPETITIVELY!" and all this

But believe me, dont use the grab. Its useless. I never use it. And if I do, I use it VERY VERY rarely.

 

[---]

I know people will be like "YOU NOOB!" and "YOU DONT PLAY COMPETITIVELY!" and all this

But believe me, dont use the grab. Its useless. I never use it. And if I do, I use it VERY VERY rarely.

Welcome to Smashboards. Please try to make positive contributions and remember to let the auto censor do it's job.

If you have any questions free to send any staff member a PM or look at this thread for reference: http://smashboards.com/help/terms

 

[FamilyTeam]

But believe me, dont use the grab. Its useless. I never use it. And if I do, I use it VERY VERY rarely.

Don't use grab? Whose grab?

 

[Dade]

I know people will be like "YOU NOOB!" and "YOU DONT PLAY COMPETITIVELY!" and all this

But believe me, dont use the grab. Its useless. I never use it. And if I do, I use it VERY VERY rarely.

You don't have to be a noob or play competitively to know that grabs are definitely NOT useless. Best way to get someone out of a shield? Grab them. Unless you only play characters with shield breakers, and even then, they'll just spotdodge.
Grabs are not useless, even in casual. I know all opinions are important, and all, but..
..This is a bad opinion.

 

[flamer180]

Welcome to Smashboards. Please try to make positive contributions and remember to let the auto censor do it's job.

If you have any questions free to send any staff member a PM or look at this thread for reference: http://smashboards.com/help/terms

My post is fine. If you dont like it then boo hoo. Im not going to be fake for you or for anybody else

Don't use grab? Whose grab?

Dont use grab in general. For any character. Its useless.

Think about it, instead of using grab you could use something else to try and hit your opponent with.

Don't use grab? Whose grab?

There MIGHT be one or two exceptions, maybe for weak characters like jigglypuff it might come in handy.

For characters like Little Mac though, who has power and speed, its useless

You don't have to be a noob or play competitively to know that grabs are definitely NOT useless. Best way to get someone out of a shield? Grab them. Unless you only play characters with shield breakers, and even then, they'll just spotdodge.
Grabs are not useless, even in casual. I know all opinions are important, and all, but..
..This is a bad opinion.

They are useless lol I dont know what a shield breaker is or a spot dodge, I just know how to play haha

Coming from someone whos been brainwashed just like tons of other players that the grab actually has use lol

Believe me, I understand. Alot of you guys could use improvement. Ive watched many tournaments, and alot of you play like chickens.
Not to be rude or anything, but thats just the fighting style I see from alot of people haha

I could definately help people to become better. If you dont believe me, you could battle me and find out. Im not just talking crap. I actually know what Im talking about.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Dont use grab in general. For any character. Its useless.

Think about it, instead of using grab you could use something else to try and hit your opponent with.

I take it you musn't play any character that has a good grab? Like Mario, Luigi, anyone in High or Top Tier?
I mean, what are you gonna do when somebody is shielding, swat at their shield with your jab and ironically get grabbed yourself?

 

[flamer180]

I take it you musn't play any character that has a good grab? Like Mario, Luigi, anyone in High or Top Tier?
I mean, what are you gonna do when somebody is shielding, swat at their shield with your jab and ironically get grabbed yourself?

The tier list is complete ******** as well haha

So disregarding that, I play mario sometimes, I admit im not the best with him, but eh.

I just never found the grab useful in a match.
Well I always find a way around the shield. I dont know if I wanna reveal my secrets lol But if you ever watched me play you could figure it out.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Also, mate, please! Avoid double or triple posting!
Some characters have excellent grabs to the point where they are called "grab to win", Mario himself is called grab to win due to the crazy conversions he can get out of his grab, and all of the custom combos he can get out of Down Throw.
The Tier Lists aren't exactly law, but right or not, you can't deny people like Mario, Sheik, Fox and Diddy are some of the best characters in the game, and coincidentally, they all get a lot from grabs.

 

[flamer180]

Also, mate, please! Avoid double or triple posting!
Some characters have excellent grabs to the point where they are called "grab to win", Mario himself is called grab to win due to the crazy conversions he can get out of his grab, and all of the custom combos he can get out of Down Throw.
The Tier Lists aren't exactly law, but right or not, you can't deny people like Mario, Sheik, Fox and Diddy are some of the best characters in the game, and coincidentally, they all get a lot from grabs.

you worry about your posting, i'll focus on mine.

nothing wrong with double posting. if it creates an annoyance for you, just try to ignore it.

well if other people wanna use the grab thats cool, but i find it useless personally

those characters only SEEM good because the people behind it have skill. its the skill that makes a character look good.

Little Mac is king though

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just assuming you're not here wasting my time...
Watch a single grab flipping a game on its head:

Why am I talking to you?

 

[flamer180]

Just assuming you're not here wasting my time...
Watch a single grab flipping a game on its head:

Why am I talking to you?

XD haha yea yea thats cool

But like I said, I find it useless myself. Just not my type of playing style. But if other people use it thats cool.

Thats was a nice combo, but Id like to see him try it on me haha

 

[FamilyTeam]

Thats was a nice combo, but Id like to see him try it on me haha

Sorry, mate, but you cannot keep acting like hot stuff like that when earlier you didn't even know what a Spotdodge/Sidestep and a Shield Breaker were.
Unless somehow Little Mac is all you've been playing your entire life, I really cannot see how someone would find grabs to not be useful. It's exactly like not using Paper in Rock, Paper, Scissors.
If you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you really should not speak. But that's the moderator's job to do, not mine. This thread is poluted as hell with the double posts.

 

[Deleted member]

There's a reason top 's don't use Blade Beam.

 

[flamer180]

Sorry, mate, but you cannot keep acting like hot stuff like that when earlier you didn't even know what a Spotdodge/Sidestep and a Shield Breaker were.
Unless somehow Little Mac is all you've been playing your entire life, I really cannot see how someone would find grabs to not be useful. It's exactly like not using Paper in Rock, Paper, Scissors.
If you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you really should not speak. But that's the moderator's job to do, not mine. This thread is poluted as hell with the double posts.

My *** nog I am hot stuff. Whether you know it or not lol

Here we go -__- people thinking if you dont know a specific term of the game that automatically makes you a noob -__-
When will these people learn...

Grab is NOT essential like you seem to think it is. How about you just zip your arrogant mouth, and battle me. Then we can see if Im talking crap.

Why you care so much about double post? I dont have a problem with it.

There's a reason top 's don't use Blade Beam.

Even though your a guy I like your profile pic

There's a reason top 's don't use Blade Beam.

And yea with certain characters, some moves are not necessary. And in fact some moves on certain characters can actually create a burden for you when your playing.

Its ALL about timing. Knowing exactly when to use a specific move. And myself, I got good timing

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'm not liking the double posts for it is against the rules of this forum. I would've understood if you had only done one double post as it's not every forum that takes issue with it, but you've done it more than once and with triple posting as well...

The basic Melee "How to Play" video shows you what a Spotdodge/Sidestep is. Not only that, yes, you kind of are expected to know what everything is called. Anyone can do it, really.
Lots of characters have shield breaking moves, probably the most well known is Marth and Lucina's Neutral Special, which is called Shield Breaker itself. Great move if used properly.
Even if you do want a match, this is not the place for it anyway.

 

[Cyn]

double post? I dont have a problem with it.

They care about multiple posting because it is against forum rules and considered bad forum etiquette here. Please use the edit function if you have information you wish to add instead of making a new consecutive post. This helps prevent thread/post clutter. Thanks.

 

[flamer180]

I'm not liking the double posts for it is against the rules of this forum. I would've understood if you had only done one double post as it's not every forum that takes issue with it, but you've done it more than once and with triple posting as well...

The basic Melee "How to Play" video shows you what a Spotdodge/Sidestep is. Not only that, yes, you kind of are expected to know what everything is called. Anyone can do it, really.
Lots of characters have shield breaking moves, probably the most well known is Marth and Lucina's Neutral Special, which is called Shield Breaker itself. Great move if used properly.
Even if you do want a match, this is not the place for it anyway.

OH MY! TRIPLE POSTING! OH NO! OH NO! OH NOOO!!!

XD haha

And no. NO ONE is expected to know what anything means.

Im good on that video. I know how to play lol

And I dont care about specific terms.

I might be able to battle you. But I would have to borrow someones system. You willing to battle me?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I am afraid I play on 3DS - not Wii U. I only play Wii U while I'm playing tournaments.
Speaking of tournaments, if I really were to say my experience with them, I'll let you into the fact that I was Top 5 in a local, runner-up of other 3 locals and the champion of one. Locals here are not big, but I am afraid I do have the track record to atleast say I know what I am doing to some extent.

 

[Yoshister]

Grab is NOT essential like you seem to think it is. How about you just zip your arrogant mouth, and battle me. Then we can see if Im talking crap.

I dunno, grabs are pretty important. Not only do you get nice conversions off certain throws, but it's also the easiest method of getting through a shield.

I might be able to battle you. But I would have to borrow someones system. You willing to battle me?

I dunno, but I am.



Also, high level players generally go for the safest moves their character has. This is why don't see a ton of smash attacks used (Besides Up-smashio).

 

[flamer180]

They care about multiple posting because it is against forum rules and considered bad forum etiquette here. Please use the edit function if you have information you wish to add instead of making a new consecutive post. This helps prevent thread/post clutter. Thanks.

No thank you. There is nothing wrong with multiple post. It is only clutter if someone looks at it like clutter.

I honestly dont see a problem with it.

I am afraid I play on 3DS - not Wii U. I only play Wii U while I'm playing tournaments.
Speaking of tournaments, if I really were to say my experience with them, I'll let you into the fact that I was Top 5 in a local, runner-up of other 3 locals and the champion of one. Locals here are not big, but I am afraid I do have the track record to atleast say I know what I am doing to some extent.

Yea thats cool then. And congradulations.

Btw im just curious, why do you have your Nintendo network id as "FamilyMember" if you dont have a Wii U?

 

[Cyn]

No thank you. There is nothing wrong with multiple post. It is only clutter if someone looks at it like clutter.

I honestly dont see a problem with it.

Regardless how you see it, it is still against forum policy. So please refrain from doing so.

 

[flamer180]

I dunno, grabs are pretty important. Not only do you get nice conversions off certain throws, but it's also the easiest method of getting through a shield.

I dunno, but I am.



Also, high level players generally go for the safest moves their character has. This is why don't see a ton of smash attacks used (Besides Up-smashio).

Ehhh. To me grabs arent important. Personally.

But hey you use yoshi as a main?

Regardless how you see it, it is still against forum policy. So please refrain from doing so.

If it happens it happens. I cant promise you anything

 

[FamilyTeam]

Btw im just curious, why do you have your Nintendo network id as "FamilyMember" if you dont have a Wii U?

Because having a NNID isn't the same as having a Wii U.
You still ain't learning it with the double posts, aren't you.
You might get probated if you insist.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Do you play Pac-Man? Because if not, I don't understand how you think grabs are bad.

 

[flamer180]

Because having a NNID isn't the same as having a Wii U.
You still ain't learning it with the double posts, aren't you.
You might get probated if you insist.

Yea I figured I might get banned or something lol

I know how picky some websites can be haha

What is a NNID then?