Weekly Character Discussion: Toon Link

[Deleted member]

Lee is late again.

Let's kick his lilly pom-pom loving ***.

This allows you attack strategically and safely.

Engrish ftw. lol.

 

[Overswarm]

Let's kick his lilly pom-pom loving ***.



Engrish ftw. lol.

ROFL


I didn't catch that.

Haha... I'm leaving that in. XD

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Good stuff, looks like this thread can finally be moved. Nice summary, btw.





Everything after this post is general discussion!

 

[A2ZOMG]

TL counters G&W. That's autowin for him.

I can't remember, is it possible to DI out of his F-smash?

 

[Talvi]

Can't TL just play defensively and just KO when there is an opening? There is no need in seeking the KO if you are "safe". And they have the pressure of thousands of things flying at them.

 

[Ulevo]

As previously stated, I'm not entirely sure why hardly anyone has picked up Toon Link and placed well with him. There are better character choices, but his ability to float between offense and defense is devastating for those players or characters who don't cope well with that.

 

[Overswarm]

Can't TL just play defensively and just KO when there is an opening? There is no need in seeking the KO if you are "safe". And they have the pressure of thousands of things flying at them.

More opportunity for you to mess up.

 

[-Steed-]

Well, I play toon, and I love him. I like link, and for me toon is just an improved version as I prefer speed than strength. He is one of my favourite characters.

 

[Kilut]

Toon link is quite good, and if the toon link you are fighting is good at the racking up damage thing then the whole death to you thing is gonna be a lot easier. His strongest killing move is probably his fsmash, but thats quite easy to dodge. I've air dodged in between hits, and also one time I powershielded the second one. Its annoying as hell when it hits though, because its deceptively strong. His smashes are also good at killing(obviously) but a well timed dair on-stage can be crazy annoying cuz it has quite good knockback, but its sooooo easy to dodge. His uair is pretty much his dair flipped around (but that's just how i like to think of it) It has pretty good priority i think... and it stays out for longer than you would think it does and its strong.

How does Tlink do when put up against another projectile spammer? Are his better? Or will he be forced to approach?

 

[Excel_Zero]

Toon Link + Pirate Ship = AWESOME! =]

Srsly... you can spam dair spike all you want without fear of suicides.

 

[Ørion]

Yay, toon link finally got a summary

Anyway, I don't really agree that his recovery has as many bad angles as some have suggested. With proper DI, you can get to a better angle and still recover from practically anywhere.

There was a lot of talk of killing with a bair to dair combo, but that is really situational, and I feel it is better to kill with a fsmash, usmash, or even a uair.

 

[PK Hexagon]

Really, even as a surprise Choice Band Skarmory isn't a good idea.

 

[ftl]

In his recovery, TL also gets a LOT of help from his projectiles. I've looked at some TL videos, and recovery goes like this - throw a bomb onto the edge, get another bomb, by this point you're below the edge, throw the bomb up, do the up-b. He's floaty enough and has good enough projectiles that he can actually fight the guy that's on the edge trying to edgeguard him - though it *is* possible to gimp him, TL can also avoid the gimps by keeping a bunch of projectiles around him and using them smartly.

I've been considering TL, and I enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you guys a lot for your input! I'd just like to add in my two cents - a guess about why TL 'seems so great' but hasn't been doing well.

Just look at their matchup thread. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169292 . There are lots of good characters with whom TL seems to be able to hold even, according to that. So what gives? I think part of it is simply the patience required to play the game, and the low margin for error. *EVERY* matchup that TL has an advantage in goes something like this:

'TL has better rangespam. Use lots of bombs, boomerangs, and double arrows to force them to approach, and try to keep them the heck away. Because if they ever get a good approach in, you're eating a smash, and remember, you die early!'

The Fox matchup is especially illustrative of this, the way they talk about it. The way TL has to beat Fox is by outcamping him, despite the shine, despite the blaster. And it's like that for each character. It's hard to rely on rangespam that much. People know how to powershield, how to dodge. Lots of people like to camp with projectiles when they can, not just TLs. A good TL has to be able to keep rangecamping even when the opponent knows how to powershield, dodge, roll, jump over projectiles, and so on. And at range, opportunities for punishment are that much less - if the opponent screws up, all he'll be hit with is a bomb at worst, since, as mentioned in this thread, TL can't really combo too well into anything. He essentially needs to put up a projectile wall, and keep up that wall well enough to not let people in - and that's hard enough to do that I just haven't seen anybody being able to do it. The TL videos I've seen don't end up playing that way, they end up playing a more offensive short-range game. Which is still fine, as mentioned TL can play offense too, but it's not really using him optimally.

 

[ph00tbag]

It's strange, when I heard he was in the game, I punched a wall, because I disagree with his inclusion. Nevertheless, Toon Link has arisen as my best secondary. I was thinking about it earlier, and I think that you can go farther than the SBR went in saying he's as good as Melee Samus. I think he's the closest to melee Samus of any character in the Brawl cast. He's not as heavy, but controls-wise, he just feels the same, and with his battery of spammable projectiles, you can really limit your opponent's approach. This was a lot of Samus' game in Melee.

Personally, I don't feel like Tink is very easy to gimp. I get gimped as Tink less than I do as Zamus, and I almost never get gimped as Zamus. Tink's projectiles make him a lot harder to edgeguard than many characters, to whatever extent edgeguarding happens in Brawl.

Toon Link is also really easy to mix it up with, because you can shift from defensive to offensive very easily. This is what I often do. Once one playstyle has been figured out, I switch to another.

I think the major difficulty for Tink is that once people have gotten to him, it's easy to keep him on the run. He also dies quicker than most characters.

 

[Tope]

Fox vs TL is really dumb.


Running Usmash ruins my day.

 

[petrie911]

As soon as the game came out, my friends and I pegged Toon Link for best in game. He seemed to have everything. Great projectiles, good close attacks, and a fairly good recovery. The matchup thread also places him squarely in top tier. So it's kind of confusing why he's so unplayed.

 

[Black_Heretic]

As soon as the game came out, my friends and I pegged Toon Link for best in game. He seemed to have everything. Great projectiles, good close attacks, and a fairly good recovery. The matchup thread also places him squarely in top tier. So it's kind of confusing why he's so unplayed.

He's just too easy to kill if you're fighting a character with good KO potential

 

[mirkdddlhppr]

Toon Link is, in my opinion, an excellent character when used with proper spacing. I find it a tad bit bizarre that he isn't used much at all, for he has few bad match ups and few weaknesses. Indeed, he has a decent match up against strong contenders, such as Game and Watch and Falco. It seems as if he's underplayed simply because his weaknesses, though fair and few between, just haven't been quieted. As the SBR Discussion dictates, he has a rare ability to play both offensively and defensively. With Bomb Traps, Arrow Canceling, etc. he has many options. Though he may have trouble killing, he may, like Sonic perhaps, need to focus on strategic killing and gimping, along with waiting for an opening, than killing outright. So, maybe someday soon, someone will come along and unleash Toon Link's full potential. :D

 

[kkkoala]

As soon as the game came out, my friends and I pegged Toon Link for best in game. He seemed to have everything. Great projectiles, good close attacks, and a fairly good recovery. The matchup thread also places him squarely in top tier. So it's kind of confusing why he's so unplayed.

his grabbing sucks and his throws suck... hes got decent speed on his punch but not amasing enough to make grabbing really worth it past 50% where u can throw down and auto uptilt...

he lacks the multiple jumps that, using ddd as example cuz his bair is so very similar in usage, has, which gives him the ability to bair chain far enough off to the side to get the ko. although tl's bair is great, it has a widdle too much of a vertical knock back to use for ko-ing even when far to the side, and he cant fight far enough to the side for him to ko wit it cuz of his normal ability to jump

he also sorta lacks the ability to gimp that much. his dair is a gamble unless like vs dk or something, and still if u somehow miss, ur deadsauce... his fair is quite slow, and while has good knockback, doesnt have killing knockback til 100% or so. his bair can rack up damage but other than bouncing some1 down from under the stage it cant do much. his nair is rly situational as fair is almost always better when u have the time... and his smaller ability to gimp is very depressing when u look at his floatyness and speed

 

[gkrackerr]

his grabbing sucks and his throws suck... hes got decent speed on his punch but not amasing enough to make grabbing really worth it past 50% where u can throw down and auto uptilt...

he lacks the multiple jumps that, using ddd as example cuz his bair is so very similar in usage, has, which gives him the ability to bair chain far enough off to the side to get the ko. although tl's bair is great, it has a widdle too much of a vertical knock back to use for ko-ing even when far to the side, and he cant fight far enough to the side for him to ko wit it cuz of his normal ability to jump

he also sorta lacks the ability to gimp that much. his dair is a gamble unless like vs dk or something, and still if u somehow miss, ur deadsauce... his fair is quite slow, and while has good knockback, doesnt have killing knockback til 100% or so. his bair can rack up damage but other than bouncing some1 down from under the stage it cant do much. his nair is rly situational as fair is almost always better when u have the time... and his smaller ability to gimp is very depressing when u look at his floatyness and speed

I disagree w/ some of the things you said.

While yes, his grabs aren't that great and can be punished, they do not suck. His d-throw at low percents can chain into an u-tilt or running u-smash, or you can catch your opponent air-dodging w/ another grab, or if they attack out of it you can powershield then u-smash. In later percents, on stages w/ platforms, his d-throw is reminiscent of marth's u-throw. You d-throw, they hit the platform and get up attack/do nothing/tech, and you punish with b-airs that poke through or an u-air to finish them at higher percents.

His b-throw is a bit more situational then the d-throw, but it is wonderful for setting up edge-guards/gimps when throwing the opponent off the stage due to the awkward trajectory it sends the opponent. After a b-throw off the edge you can follow up w/ projectiles and then intercept them w/ a fair/nair. In addition, b-throw at early percents will sometimes cause the opponent to shield (with them thinking that they are air-dodging), allowing you to follow up w/ another grab as they sit in their shield behind you.

His f-throw isn't that great, I'll admit, but it can set up for decent edge guards when throwing the opponent off the stage.

His u-throw, it's bleh. Not truly great for anything.
--------------------------------------------------------
I agree w/ what you said about the b-air, but his b-air, even if it had less vertical knock back, would be much better replaced w/ a f-air or n-air. And yes, he can't really follow off the edge like DDD, but his b-air to n-air (hitting w/ the second hit in the back), does push the opponent off the edge far enough to allow yourself get to the ledge and edge guard them as they recover. I believe Santi did this in one of his vids, and it seemed to work well.
--------------------------------------------------------
Lastly would be what you said about TL not being able to gimp that well. TL can actually handle his own in terms of gimpyness, what with his wonderful projectiles that force the opponent to recover from where you let them, allowing you to hit them. Characters like falco/fox/wolf/ness/lucas that have to recover in a straight line can be forced under the stage. When you attack them w/ your projectiles it forces them to either fast fall and drop below them to dodge, they can air-dodge, or they can get hit. Any of the options pushes them further downward and possibly below the stage where they are forced to move upwards to recover, allowing you to drop down and hit them w/ a f-air (or d-air if you're up for it).
Then there are characters w/ a recovery that has a pretty set path (i.e. DK, Ike, Bowser, Snake, Kirby) where you can d-air them out of it. And in terms of Kirby and Ike, you can z-air ledge stall and kill them that way.

Just my thoughts

 

[Ørion]

his grabbing sucks and his throws suck... hes got decent speed on his punch but not amasing enough to make grabbing really worth it past 50% where u can throw down and auto uptilt...

His grabs don't really suck, they just require an opening to use and require knowledge of when to use them.

he lacks the multiple jumps that, using ddd as example cuz his bair is so very similar in usage, has, which gives him the ability to bair chain far enough off to the side to get the ko. although tl's bair is great, it has a widdle too much of a vertical knock back to use for ko-ing even when far to the side, and he cant fight far enough to the side for him to ko wit it cuz of his normal ability to jump

Almost no one has the multiple jumps, only a handful of characters, so this is more of a lack of a strength than a weakness. You can kill with bair, watch the bair naked bonage on youtube.

 

[Smashless]

Lets face it, Toon Link is a pain the *** to play really well. And in a competitive game world, if people don't see that the amount of time spent on a character equals the amount of reward, they're going to switch to someone easier or more effective. Think of them like the ice climbers. If you learn to CG all the characters, you'll reap the rewards of how good the ice climbers are when you know how to play them. This is why so many early TL mains dropped to someone else, imo. Nobody realized how tough he was to master until they started losing a month or so after the game came out.

Do I think that TL is worth the time and effort? Absolutely. He's all that and a bag of chips. With bombs.

Am I willing to sink that much time into him... well... I switched to ROB didn't I : /

 

[Anth0ny]

Toon Link is simply awesome. I'm really surprised that he doesn't have a stronger showing in the tournament scene. He has a very fast running speed and hell, he's fast as everything else. All his moves are effective one way or another.

He probably has the best projectiles in the game. Arrows, slow moving ones at that, bombs and boomerang are almost always usable. Short hop double arrow probably will allow you to throw in a boomerang because of the speed of the arrow. It's pretty **** hard to get passed all of that

However, if they do get passed that, it's nothing to fear. Every tilt and smash that Toon Link has is quick and effective. However, you may even want to pass on them when you consider the speed and power of TL's smash attacks. His fsmash could have one or two hits depending on how you hit the cstick. His upsmash is quick and hits multiple times. Down smash has some great knockback and again, has two hits. TL also has a very nice jab combo that could be used as a quick combo starter.

TL also has some awesome aerials for not only comboing (bair WOP!), but for killing. Nair, fair come out fast, great knockback and could kill. uair and dair share similar traits, but are a bit more situational when it comes to effectiveness. And who hasn't absolutely pwned someone with TL's dair spike? Stunning. (note: I don't reccomend using this in a tournament match. You're opponent will probably get around it!)

Toon Link excels in recovery as well. If you're not back on the stage due to his floatiness and his impressive double jump, you have two options. Hookshot for when nobody is edgehogging and upb, for, well, any situation really. The odds are that if you haven't wasted your jump, you have a good chance of shooting some arrows, throwing a bomb or throwing your boomerang while falling in the air at your opponent, and still recovering.

The only cons in Toon Link's game that I could think of is his lightness, which allows early kills by your opponent, and his grab, which expected from a hookshot user. If you are able to grab someone though, you have some nice moves at your disposal to start a combo with.

So, despite the small amount of drawbacks in Toon Link's game, he's not winning tournaments. As someone said earlier in this thread, I think someone eventually is going to break Toon Link out of his shell and start to absolutely destroy people.

 

[Pierce7d]

As far as I'm concerned, Toon Link helps put combos back in this game. His ability to control the match, awesome far and close range combat, and just keep on the offense relentlessly make him awesome . . .

but not top tier.

Also, while I'm sure it's been said, can I remind everyone how amazingly awesome Toon Link's recovery is. Most gimping attempts are stopped by that boomerang or a bomb. He can bomb himself to regain his already amazing upB (in terms of range). On some stages, apart from his already amazing jumps, he can employ an wall jump (see Yoshi's Island) .

A matter of fact, unlike many characters that the unevenness of Yoshi's Island messes up, Toon Link ENCOURAGES this. Additionally, that platform in the center of the stage almost makes this a perfect Toon Link stage, as he can take his opponent all over the place, and still holds his good retreat and camping options.

Also, his edge-guarding options are amazing. His run off stage -> Bair back onto the stage is very safe, and often mind games many people.

Also, the Dair isn't a reliable spike method, but it's a good mindgame over the stage if used sparingly, especially to shield poke.

 

[mirkdddlhppr]

Toon Link is simply awesome. I'm really surprised that he doesn't have a stronger showing in the tournament scene. He has a very fast running speed and hell, he's fast as everything else. All his moves are effective one way or another.

He probably has the best projectiles in the game. Arrows, slow moving ones at that, bombs and boomerang are almost always usable. Short hop double arrow probably will allow you to throw in a boomerang because of the speed of the arrow. It's pretty **** hard to get passed all of that

However, if they do get passed that, it's nothing to fear. Every tilt and smash that Toon Link has is quick and effective. However, you may even want to pass on them when you consider the speed and power of TL's smash attacks. His fsmash could have one or two hits depending on how you hit the cstick. His upsmash is quick and hits multiple times. Down smash has some great knockback and again, has two hits. TL also has a very nice jab combo that could be used as a quick combo starter.

TL also has some awesome aerials for not only comboing (bair WOP!), but for killing. Nair, fair come out fast, great knockback and could kill. uair and dair share similar traits, but are a bit more situational when it comes to effectiveness. And who hasn't absolutely pwned someone with TL's dair spike? Stunning. (note: I don't reccomend using this in a tournament match. You're opponent will probably get around it!)

Toon Link excels in recovery as well. If you're not back on the stage due to his floatiness and his impressive double jump, you have two options. Hookshot for when nobody is edgehogging and upb, for, well, any situation really. The odds are that if you haven't wasted your jump, you have a good chance of shooting some arrows, throwing a bomb or throwing your boomerang while falling in the air at your opponent, and still recovering.

The only cons in Toon Link's game that I could think of is his lightness, which allows early kills by your opponent, and his grab, which expected from a hootshot user. If you are able to grab someone though, you have some nice moves at your disposal to start a combo with.

So, despite the small amount of drawbacks in Toon Link's game, he's not winning tournaments. As someone said earlier in this thread, I think someone eventually is going to break Toon Link out of his shell and start to absolutely destroy people.

Lol @ Hootshot :D

But, I agree with your -points.

 

[Anth0ny]

Lol @ Hootshot :D

But, I agree with your -points.

lmao did I write that? *fixes*

 

[vbdood1337]

Toon Link is amazing. Once the a metagame develops for him where Tinks can consistantly beat Meta Knight's, I think a lot of people are going to start playing him. As of right now, he has a near-impossible matchup vs. MK. He has some favorable matchups vs. D3, GaW, and even the IC's, but that doesn't do much good when everyone and their mom is playing MK or Snake (a matchup that is decent for Tink, but could easily go Snake's way.) If he had a better grab game i think more people would start to play him, but its hard to even shield grab some characters.

Everything else is amazing. Bombs, rangs, and arrows are beastly and once a Tink can set up a wall of projectiles it's pretty hard to break it down, and even when you do, all it takes is a sh'd nair or jab combo to regain his spacing and start it up again.

His uair has amazing priority, but is hard to land against a good player. His d-smash has an ability to launch characters horizontally, setting up for early gimps. It comes out fast and deals some good damage if both attacks hit. His n-air is his best move imo, use it for everything. Tink's DI is so good he can attack with a n-air, di away from the character, and quick draw an arrow to regain spacing and use as a poking attack.

Larger characters like bowser, ganon, and D3 are awesome match-ups for Tink, but he struggles against smaller members of the cast. Part of this is because of his inability to kill consistantly, even vs. smaller characters like pikachu or olimar (one hell of a match-up, the only way Tink can win this is if he can gimp the olimar's recovery early and often), and also because of a weakened projectile game (it's still pretty scary). If he faces another campy character, most Tink's will try to go on the offensive, but he doesn't really do as well here. Someone else said that the way to win that battle is to keep up your own projectile wall, and force them into the offensive. Once Tink's can start to do that (and beat MKs) he'll be one hell of a character to deal with.

 

[Percon]

He's got all the tools to deal with foes. It's just up to some dedicated player to find out when to use what (as a lot of his stuff is situational).

 

[JesiahTEG]

Why the SBR is wrong on almost everything they said

I'll take a minute and explain why Toon Link will probably never see top 3 in a huge tournament, since people seem to be convinced that he just has all of this hidden potential, when in reality he doesn't.

Toon Link is a lot better on paper than he is in an actual match. In the beginning, people were going crazy about how he can outcamp more than half the cast. This is false. Any other character with projectiles can go pretty much even in terms of "camping." He can force a few characters to approach, which comes in handy, but other than that expect to be fighting mid range. A good example is Snake. You can force Snake to approach, but you can't camp him. You spam arrows, he throws grenades, then you have to deal with the grenades. By that time, he's already next to you. Same goes with a ton of characters. Not to mention the fact that every character that can outcamp Toon Link auto wins the matchup, due to the coincidence that they also posses the ability to win up close. (Pit, R.O.B., Zelda, Sheik to an extent) It's stupid. His projectiles are used to harass people most of the time, rack up damage which does help, and save urself from being edgeguarded. When I am playing Snake, any Toon Link that tries to projectile camp me, I walk powershield and Ftilt the crap out of them. Granted, it's harder than it seems but you get my point.

Next, Toon Link lacks range. He does outrange some characters but it's not NEARLY enough to play a spacing game. Marth excels at his spacing game, and he has a HUGE advantage due to that. Snake can play a spacing game. DK can play a spacing game. Not Toon Link. Toon Link can at best, SOMEWHAT pressure ur opponent. That is, until they realize that you are trying to be Marth and they swat you away or get inside your deceptively small range. It sucks.

Making matters even worse for Toon Link is the fact that possibly his worst matchup is Metaknight...The most common tourney character. He also has a bit of trouble with Snake, another huge tourney character. Aside from the fact that he's overrated, he has the 2 worst matchups to be bad in, Snake and Metaknight. He's simply not as good as them, and they do well vs him.

Now, I'm telling you all these bad things about Toon Link, and surely you're asking yourselves "Isn't there any good things?" Yes, there are good things about Toon Link. As everyone knows, he can combo. He can combo, he's quick, he has good DI, and a good recovery. These things are all handy, but that's it. Handy. They're nothing that can ever make him a top tier character. These good things Toon Link has are all too situational! His comboing...His comboing really only gives him a huge advantage if his Bairs are near fully decayed, not allowing your opponent to airdodge out, and also allowing you to finish the combo with an Fsmash or Usmash. Otherwise you'll hit with 1 or 2 Bairs for some chip damage. His comboing is really nothing gamebreaking unless you can somehow make it so that your Bair is decayed. Extremely situational. Next, his manueverability. He's quick and has great DI. This doesn't really help that much vs characters like Metaknight, who is even quicker and can track your *** down, or Snake whose Ftilt covers the stage, so ur quickness doesn't even matter. Again, this advantage is situational...You need to find ways to abuse it. Counterpicks like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair are perfect for this.

In summary: Toon Link is average in everything, which is annoying but we have to deal with it. He can't camp like Pit or Rob, and he can't space like Marth or Snake. He's right in between. He does however, completely stop some characters under certain circumstances, due to his advantages. This makes him an amazing secondary character to have in your back pocket for counterpicks. Having trouble with Snake? Take him to Norfair, as you have every advantage possible on Norfair vs Snake. Think Melee Peach. She's a good character, can't keep up with the best characters though, and she's unstoppable on some stages like Mute City and Dreamland 64. That's all there is to it.

 

[Ørion]

I'll take a minute and explain why Toon Link will probably never see top 3 in a huge tournament, since people seem to be convinced that he just has all of this hidden potential, when in reality he doesn't.

Toon Link is a lot better on paper than he is in an actual match. In the beginning, people were going crazy about how he can outcamp more than half the cast. This is false. Any other character with projectiles can go pretty much even in terms of "camping." He can force a few characters to approach, which comes in handy, but other than that expect to be fighting mid range. A good example is Snake. You can force Snake to approach, but you can't camp him. You spam arrows, he throws grenades, then you have to deal with the grenades. By that time, he's already next to you. Same goes with a ton of characters. Not to mention the fact that every character that can outcamp Toon Link auto wins the matchup, due to the coincidence that they also posses the ability to win up close. (Pit, R.O.B., Zelda, Sheik to an extent) It's stupid. His projectiles are used to harass people most of the time, rack up damage which does help, and save urself from being edgeguarded. When I am playing Snake, any Toon Link that tries to projectile camp me, I walk powershield and Ftilt the crap out of them. Granted, it's harder than it seems but you get my point.

Next, Toon Link lacks range. He does outrange some characters but it's not NEARLY enough to play a spacing game. Marth excels at his spacing game, and he has a HUGE advantage due to that. Snake can play a spacing game. DK can play a spacing game. Not Toon Link. Toon Link can at best, SOMEWHAT pressure ur opponent. That is, until they realize that you are trying to be Marth and they swat you away or get inside your deceptively small range. It sucks.

Making matters even worse for Toon Link is the fact that possibly his worst matchup is Metaknight...The most common tourney character. He also has a bit of trouble with Snake, another huge tourney character. Aside from the fact that he's overrated, he has the 2 worst matchups to be bad in, Snake and Metaknight. He's simply not as good as them, and they do well vs him.

Now, I'm telling you all these bad things about Toon Link, and surely you're asking yourselves "Isn't there any good things?" Yes, there are good things about Toon Link. As everyone knows, he can combo. He can combo, he's quick, he has good DI, and a good recovery. These things are all handy, but that's it. Handy. They're nothing that can ever make him a top tier character. These good things Toon Link has are all too situational! His comboing...His comboing really only gives him a huge advantage if his Bairs are near fully decayed, not allowing your opponent to airdodge out, and also allowing you to finish the combo with an Fsmash or Usmash. Otherwise you'll hit with 1 or 2 Bairs for some chip damage. His comboing is really nothing gamebreaking unless you can somehow make it so that your Bair is decayed. Extremely situational. Next, his manueverability. He's quick and has great DI. This doesn't really help that much vs characters like Metaknight, who is even quicker and can track your *** down, or Snake whose Ftilt covers the stage, so ur quickness doesn't even matter. Again, this advantage is situational...You need to find ways to abuse it. Counterpicks like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair are perfect for this.

In summary: Toon Link is average in everything, which is annoying but we have to deal with it. He can't camp like Pit or Rob, and he can't space like Marth or Snake. He's right in between. He does however, completely stop some characters under certain circumstances, due to his advantages. This makes him an amazing secondary character to have in your back pocket for counterpicks. Having trouble with Snake? Take him to Norfair, as you have every advantage possible on Norfair vs Snake. Think Melee Peach. She's a good character, can't keep up with the best characters though, and she's unstoppable on some stages like Mute City and Dreamland 64. That's all there is to it.

First off, you are really downplaying his ability at close range. He is pretty good at close range, and certainly not terrible.

You're comparing individual traits of him to characters that excell in those areas. Yes, Marth has better close range than toon link, but he has no projectiles to counter-camp toon link with and his recovery is not as good. DK can play a spacing game, but he doesn't have projectiles or speed.

IMO, you take his traits and put them next to the people who are best at those traits and say he is bad. He is not the best in one area (except maybe comboing), but he is good in most areas. He requires more practice and tactical knowledge to play well, but he has great potential.

 

[JesiahTEG]

That's the thing people fail to do. They fail to compare him to other characters. Everyone says "Oh he's so good he is so versatile up close and far away etc." He seems good on paper, but when you compare him to other characters you realize that's why those characters are better.

 

[Smashless]

right, but you're comparing him to characters who represent the BEST in their areas. Metaknight has the BEST approach. Marth and DK have the BEST range and spacing. Pit and ROB have the BEST projectiles (sorta). Aside from Snake, who is a god among men, no character has all that in one. So to compare TL to those characters and say "look, he's not as good as all those other guys" is kind of an unfair comparison.

Lets flip it the other way- Man, if Snake just isn't going to crack the top 3 of a tournament because his projectile game isn't as good as ROBs, and his range isn't as good as Marths. See what I mean? ROB wishes that he had DK's KO power, but just because he doesn't stack up against one of the best killers doesn't invalidate him.

Toon Link ISN'T all those characters. Toon Link is, instead, a marth with less range (a dj hitbox counts for something), better recovery and projectiles that, by the way, are at least as good as Snakes if your matchup analyses are to be believed. Right now, that versatility just reads as if Toon Link is a watered down version of those other characters. Which is what I think people see in his "potential"- that over time people will stop playing Toon Link like a bad marth with projectiles and start playing him like toon link. That's why so many people dropped him- for the same reasons you listed. People found better projectiles in ROB and better range in Marth, etc etc. That, and they got tired of losing to MK.

I am going to predict now that a character with so many attributes that are above average will not stay so underused. Sure, you can compare him to Snake and ROB. But you can ALSO compare him to Peach, Captain Falcon, Pokemon Trainer, Ness and Mario and realize that they all WISH they had the kind of game that Toon Link has. In fact, by the time that the first or second tier list comes out, I predict he'll have started doing better in tournaments and will place somewhere in the top of the mid or bottom of the high tier.

 

[laird]

one thing I think we are ignoring is how far Tlink has to develop.

His quickshot can be used to not only SHDA but also to shorthop an aerial (Fair, Nair, Bair) right into an arrow. Mixing the projectiles into an aerial game is really difficult to master, but it can help make up for his disadvantages in spacing vs. Marth, etc, so that he can play offensively with projectiles. Sadly, his grab still sucks.

edit: i doubt he'll ever be top tier, but he can certainly be in the middle of high tier once he develops.

Other TL ATs that could change things:

SHBA - Short Hop>BombThrow>Bow Cancel

Then there's the SH z-air>grab thing, and the SH bomb>z-air>grab, theres a lot of combo potential that hasnt been fully exploited yet. He has more in him than just bair>bair>dair

EDIT #2: lol this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166454

 

[Wave⁂]

Overall, Tink is good, out of context. If you take into account all the characters that will destroy him, he seems okay.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I see what you're saying Smashless, and your points are valid. The point I am trying to make however, is that Toon Link doesn't have anything he can abuse unless it's under a certain situation. Other characters can abuse their traits in order to do well. Nothing Toon Link has is abusable to the point where it will help make him a top tier character. If Metaknight wasn't as quick as he is, but he had projectiles, he wouldn't be nearly as good. If Snake wasn't as strong as he is, he wouldn't be as good either. The fact is, you HAVE to compare Toon Link to other characters, or else we are ignoring the rest of the game.

Think of it this way. Let's say you are explaining Toon Link to someone who knows nothing about Brawl. You say, Toon Link is good in almost every area, but not really amazing at anything. Then you go on to say, Marth's spacing game is amazing, and so is his ability to kill. The person would almost always pick Marth.

Basically, it's like this. Toon Link is a good character, he really is. He would be the best if all of the other characters above him weren't better. This goes for any character. Hell, Peach in Melee is good as crap...But then you compare her to the 4 characters that are above her. You can now argue that she is not a good character anymore, due to the characters above her.

 

[Smashless]

I see what you're saying, although I still disagree partially. In the end, it's going to come down to wether or not people are winning with him. Right now, things seem to be leaning in your direction, as he's sitting in the D rank below Ganondorf. But you and I both know he's better than many of the characters above him, so perhaps wins over some more time will be a better indicator.

 

[JesiahTEG]

He's definitely better than Ganondorf, however he just doesn't have the tools that he needs to win large tournaments.

 

[Ørion]

I see what you're saying Smashless, and your points are valid. The point I am trying to make however, is that Toon Link doesn't have anything he can abuse unless it's under a certain situation. Other characters can abuse their traits in order to do well. Nothing Toon Link has is abusable to the point where it will help make him a top tier character. If Metaknight wasn't as quick as he is, but he had projectiles, he wouldn't be nearly as good. If Snake wasn't as strong as he is, he wouldn't be as good either. The fact is, you HAVE to compare Toon Link to other characters, or else we are ignoring the rest of the game.

Think of it this way. Let's say you are explaining Toon Link to someone who knows nothing about Brawl. You say, Toon Link is good in almost every area, but not really amazing at anything. Then you go on to say, Marth's spacing game is amazing, and so is his ability to kill. The person would almost always pick Marth.

Basically, it's like this. Toon Link is a good character, he really is. He would be the best if all of the other characters above him weren't better. This goes for any character. Hell, Peach in Melee is good as crap...But then you compare her to the 4 characters that are above her. You can now argue that she is not a good character anymore, due to the characters above her.

Yes, it's true that toon link has no area that he excels in above all other characters. He is, however, good in a variety of areas. He requires a much greater tactical knowledge to play. If you can take an area he is pretty good in and use it against an area that you opponent is weak in, you might be able to defeat the MKs and snakes of the world.

In no way am I saying that toon link is better than MK or snake, I admit they are better. But I don't think that toon link is totally out of the tournament scene.

 

[hippiedude92]

I personally think Toon Link has potiential. He has aresenal projectiles that let's him pressure the oppenent.
It's just that Toon Link players aren't winning the big tourneys. I think we need to give him abit more time on it. I mean it's only been months right? Looking back at the melee days.. It was about 6 years, some are still adjusted back in the day.

 

[laird]

Yes, it's true that toon link has no area that he excels in above all other characters. He is, however, good in a variety of areas. He requires a much greater tactical knowledge to play. If you can take an area he is pretty good in and use it against an area that you opponent is weak in, you might be able to defeat the MKs and snakes of the world.

In no way am I saying that toon link is better than MK or snake, I admit they are better. But I don't think that toon link is totally out of the tournament scene.

Toon Link might just be BALANCED. wow.