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Weekly Character Discussion: Samus

ph00tbag

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I'm sorry, Samus switching to Zamus is a really poor decision. Every Samus I've seen that does that, no matter if they're facing the most advanced, smartest pros, or the most helpless n00bs, gets grabbed, tossed away, and their items get commandeered. It's simply not a viable option. I can just see some Samus trying this against Marth, and getting a charged Fsmash for her trouble, probably dying in the process, since she suddenly becomes a helluva lot lighter.

I don't really have much more to say, but I need to read through the rest of the thread. I just felt that this needed to be said.
 

Overswarm

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I've used it, viably, in a few situations. It's not something that would become popular though, I agree.
 

ll Mafia ll

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Adept, THANK YOU.
I needed that information really badly.

BACK TO TESTING.
 

n00b

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Mafia: lolz yea man, gj on the video. I always knew those things connected but I never bothered to see if they were legit combos.

Overswarm: Nice work with the grab release stuff! A great addition to the essential "trickiness" of any Samus main. I won't critique your Samus though, of course :p

This discussion makes me want to get off my *** and share my bomb trixxiezzz. They're nearly impossible to show online with the wifi input lag seeing as how many of them are buffered stuffz.
Woohoo~

But yeah anyway bombs are good setups for dtilts toooo
 

Gum

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Very cool discussion. There are some things I've noticed that I'd lik to touch on.

I've been pretty much solo Samus since Brawl came out, and I've discovered that Samus is pretty amazing at a lot of things (as has been discussed) and the more I use her the more I see that she doesn't really have many bad match ups at all. I would say DDD and Olimar are her worst.

In terms of Samus vs ROB, I feel like its definitely even. I don't think ROB outcamps her , but they can both beat each other down with projectiles equally. Samus can string her projectiles together in a pretty much constant stream, which ROB can't really do, but at the same time his top can be regrabbed. As far as his recovery being good enough to avoid her chasing, thats not really true. All it takes it good reading. I've also found that high dropped bombs are amazing at stunning in mid air to allow for a good dair for the ko.

In terms of her KO ability, I go for spikes and gimps a lot. The gimps come from off-stage zairs, nairs, and uncharged shots. Really good ways to nullify her lack of KO ability.

Bombs are so good. They are good to the point where they have made my matches against MK even. No exaggeration. Using bombs and the the caneling method, you have tons of options out of the ball form on the ground allowing you to respond to MK's reaction to the bombs really effectively. They also set up for charge shots.

Really cool vids Overswarm, and nice info overall. I've been following your discussions on ROB, and they have really helped me a lot. I play against Toasy's ROB all the time, and it has actually made vs ROB one of my best match-ups.

Her roll, although slow, is actually faster than it was in melee, and it is really long. I've started replacing her roll with bomb dropping in certain situations.
 

MiraiGen

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Wow, I originally thought that Samus got totally banged in the Melee-Brawl conversion, but having seen some videos and learning more about her grab attacks, she has much more potential than I gave her originally.

Bombs got nerfed, I don't see them being terribly effective but advanced users could certainly use it for lots of reactionary setups.

I'm going to go give her a shot and see what's up with the Power Suit girl. This thread has inspired me.
 

MookieRah

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I recorded some Samus vids last night, specifically against ROB, but also other characters as well. I'm not sure when I will get around to capturing them, as today I have plans after work. I will do it soon though.
 

Overswarm

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I played 3 games with Samus, and then recorded those videos; I did not have much practice in using the zair and it was unnatural for me, so I often forgot :)

I'm sure MookieRah's will show some good stuff too.
 

Nocturnal~Dragon

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glad i stumbled into this discussion, i had no clue that Samus's moves recharge if u grab and hit them, and i didn't know Samus had options off of grab release, i have to try these things out
 

Adapt

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Some extra stuff that I tested is that...
Samus's grab attack did not help for move regeneration.
I went into a MATCH, forward tilted until it did 3-4 damage, then grabbed and whacked the guy 10 times or more. Forward tilted again after.
Did 4 damage...
It may not
 

Overswarm

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All grab attacks help move regeneration; from my experience it did regenerate moves. This could be something unique, something unique to samus, or perhaps my moves just weren't as degenerative as I thought when I did it and Samus for some reason does not have her moves recharged...

but hitting "a" while in a grab does recharge your moves under normal circumstances.
 

ll Mafia ll

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All grab attacks help move regeneration; from my experience it did regenerate moves. This could be something unique, something unique to samus, or perhaps my moves just weren't as degenerative as I thought when I did it and Samus for some reason does not have her moves recharged...

but hitting "a" while in a grab does recharge your moves under normal circumstances.
I am not getting any move regeneration with Lucario or Samus...
I am getting an attack to the lowest point of power and knockback, and then I use around... 8-10 grabs attacks with either one, and then I try the first attack to see if the damage and knockback have returned to maximum power. The attacks only go up one increment of power.

I will get a vid up...
 

Overswarm

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Try with someone that doesn't have a multi-hit grab; I know it recharges Dedede's moves.
 

ll Mafia ll

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Well, this is gay.
Samus and Lucario don't get move regeneration with grab attacks, but other characters do...
Anyone wanna tell me who has really fast grab attacks?

Basically, I tested Ganon's standard A.
I spammed it do death to the point where it did 3 damage.
I did 10 grab attacks with Ganon. The A went all the way back to full power....

Same thing with Mario, I used his fireball.


So, in a nutshell, Samus can't abuse the fast grab attack for getting moves back.... gay.
 

Overswarm

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Try doing it slowly. It may be that it counts as a "multi hit" move, and therefore doesn't regenerate. Try hitt a once, them breaking out, then grab and hit a once again, repeat. See what happens.
 

ll Mafia ll

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Try doing it slowly. It may be that it counts as a "multi hit" move, and therefore doesn't regenerate. Try hitt a once, them breaking out, then grab and hit a once again, repeat. See what happens.
Okay, new testing, and geez.
I went to a match, did the usual spamming a move, in my case, up tilt with Samus, and then getting a grab. I didn't do anything with the grab. The empty grab and release did not bring the move decay up.

Okay, so then I tested Samus again...I went nice and slow, separating the hits out so it was like, one a second.

IT WORKED. Actually brought moves back up.

Then, I went into training mode and used the combo counter to see how fast Samus should grab attack to get consecutive hits. A spazzing grab attack gets broken up by the combo counter, but when I went slower, to the point where Samus had an average Grab attack speed, the hits with the grab attack registered as consecutive hits.

Then, I went back into a match, did the uptilt spam, then did grab attacks at a slower pace on Ganon.

The grab attacks eventuallly decayed to the point of doing no damage.... but when I tried the uptilt, it had full power and knockback.

Wow, annoying stuff. Hopefully this is final....
 

n00b

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Mafia: wolf has a fast grab attack, IIRC

OS: I recall Mafia said that the grab alone helps to regenerate.. so maybe doing it your way in which you have to let go and regrab would add to the regeneration.. so Mafia would have to take that into account.

and to Mafia again, when trying it more slowly, to get a good rhythm, once I have them in grab I just alternate tapping A and Z in a smooth rhythm for a continuous flow of attacks without that strange double-time/jerky chop frames.

And another question.. It seems to me that the grab release doesn't setup in time for many of the characters. Is this actually the case or am I just n00b? For example, many characters are out of range to jab, some can shield the dtilt, etc. I DID notice, however, that upon release my opponents would generally charge at me, thinking I lag more than they do, which isn't the case.. That led to free charge shots/dtilts but I still noticed their initial dash animation.

THE PLOT THICKENS

EDIT: half of this post is useless because I didn't refresh in time to see Mafia post before me.
 

ll Mafia ll

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n00b, I don't think the grab release is like a guaranteed kind of free hit.
It's more like a mix up tactic.
Ex, you start to D tilt after every grab release, and the opponent catches on.
Then, the next grab release, you dont down tilt, but regrab.
The opponent, expecting a d tilt, might shield, and you would still grab.
 

n00b

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ANYWAY I've been playing around in training mode and Samus can cancel the momentum from her ledgejump (not ledgehop) with a down B on the first frames of letting go of the edge.. iono, a hardly usable mixup option perhaps

EDIT: oh and if you do this right and DI backwards you can just regrab the ledge and the bomb explodes in time.. possible edgehog mindgame too. lawl

also, i can't reproduce it consistently but when running off the edge and laying a bomb, samus uses her momentum and falls faster in ball form under the ledge instead of her usual "pop" she gets from laying a bomb

and lastly if you understand the physics of shield dashing and buffering then you might know a way to pivot a dtilt better :] it's not my find, but rather, rohins's, so i won't share it explicity without his consent..

wop wop
 

ll Mafia ll

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You like bombs too much n00b, lol.
I will have to try some of those things.

And now I am really curious with the buffering of a d tilt from shield dash.
 

MookieRah

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Xyro77

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I use samus ONLY. no 2ndary character.

Rob is about even with samus. he may have a slight advantage due to his many KO moves. 2= fresh fully charge shot and dair.


Olimar an metaknight as by far samus's hardest fights.
 

MiraiGen

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Your 3-day old Samus is adorable.

Joking aside: it seems like Samus' main problem is totally telegraphing what she's trying to do, Bair and Full Charge Shot for KO, Zair and Missiles for drawing you in, and Dair for close-combat aerial approach.

In the Diddy/Samus video I especially noticed that problem.

Also: How useful are Super Missiles? It seems like they'd be nice to throw out because, after peppering you with non-homing Missiles, it'd throw you off.

Also also; are Super Missiles and Missiles on separate stale moves/decay charts?
 

Rohins

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I like super missiles. I get more shield breaks than I should because of them. I never checked if they stale separately. I agree Metaknight is a terrible matchup for Samus. Olimar is too but I like fighting him he looks so ********.
 

Mars-

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I don't see how this hasn't been mentioned yet but aggressive edge guarding with samus is essential. I know when I was playing wes he amazed me at how good his edge guarding was. You couldn't get back on the edge. If you tried coming in from high he would jump out and grapple you. If you tried coming in from low he would spike you or sex kick you or run off the edge and use a projectile. If you tried coming straight at the edge he would run off and grapple or use a projectile. And to top this off samus's vertical recovery in this game is rediculous. You can do all of this and survive.
 

MookieRah

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If you tried coming in from high he would jump out and grapple you. If you tried coming in from low he would spike you or sex kick you or run off the edge and use a projectile. If you tried coming straight at the edge he would run off and grapple or use a projectile. And to top this off samus's vertical recovery in this game is rediculous. You can do all of this and survive.
I'm definitely going to try to incorporate this into my play.
Joking aside: it seems like Samus' main problem is totally telegraphing what she's trying to do, Bair and Full Charge Shot for KO, Zair and Missiles for drawing you in, and Dair for close-combat aerial approach.

In the Diddy/Samus video I especially noticed that problem.
So are you referring to my Samus, or Samus in general? I know my Samus isn't up to par with the best Samus players, so you should probably watch their vids and draw conclusions. If you were talking about mine in particular, then I am currently working to diversify my play at the moment.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Because the Metroid 2 remake thread made me squee with nostalgia and awakened my long-sleeping Metroid fanboyism, I'm going to start using Samus more, weak character or not.

I don't hear many people saying this, but it's kind of obvious: lawd, her Ftilt has some amazing range.
 

stuntmansteve

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w00t to all samus players. I've been reading the boards for a few weeks and working on all the techniques and stuff... And I can't hold my silence any longer. As soon as I get a consistent stream of opponents I'll join the whole video-posting craze and really get serious, :p.

For the sake of contributing something useful to the thread, I'll share this little mindgame that I've come up with recently. I've commonly found myself doing SH Fairs from a dash, followed by a dtilt. Good combination, works a lot. Now here's the variation: every once in a while, purposely jump early and do a fast fall SH Fair into a dtilt such that the Fair misses completely and the dtilt connects right in their face. Fair is the easiest to do this with because it's easy to fast fall out of, along with Uair.
 

ll Mafia ll

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I like super missiles. I get more shield breaks than I should because of them. I never checked if they stale separately. I agree Metaknight is a terrible matchup for Samus. Olimar is too but I like fighting him he looks so ********.
I am happy someone uses Super Missiles on a regular basis... those things are fun.
i find that they are a good get off me move.

And MiraiGen, I checked for you.
They have the same decay. No separate.
 

psike

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w00t to all samus players. I've been reading the boards for a few weeks and working on all the techniques and stuff... And I can't hold my silence any longer. As soon as I get a consistent stream of opponents I'll join the whole video-posting craze and really get serious, :p.

For the sake of contributing something useful to the thread, I'll share this little mindgame that I've come up with recently. I've commonly found myself doing SH Fairs from a dash, followed by a dtilt. Good combination, works a lot. Now here's the variation: every once in a while, purposely jump early and do a fast fall SH Fair into a dtilt such that the Fair misses completely and the dtilt connects right in their face. Fair is the easiest to do this with because it's easy to fast fall out of, along with Uair.

Sounds like a good way to switch that up. People are discussing it here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182861
 

n00b

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Speaking of edgeguarding, bombs are good too! Well, against other grapple recoveries and such. Sorry if it seems like all I do is talk about bombs, but it's only because nobody else does.

A safe mixup against grapplers rather than just going for the dair (because this can prove dangerous if they catch on) is to just run towards the edge, drop a bomb, roll back, and see what happens. I've done this in a couple of Samus dittos.. they're on video somewhere.

Also, to reiterate about my other bomb trick.. Ledgejump bomb cancel, I think, is a better alternative than just simply ledgedrop double jump bomb because ledgejump is a "ledge action" which inherently grants some invinincibility frames, no?

In any case, to do it, when holding the ledge, just tap jump, and you'll hear two "whoosh" sounds. Try to input the down B command a bit after pressing jump, so that you cancel the second "whoosh" sound (this is Samus launching into the air) with a down B.

What's neat about this is that you're at the perfect height to roll low back onto the stage if your opponent predicts a jump because of the initial jump animation, which allows you to land in ball form and cancel into a buffered spot dodge, roll, shield, dtilt, what have you.. OR you can DI back onto the ledge and stall some more, or if you want to edgehog with added bomb pressure off the ledge (it explodes a bit under you) Depending on how you time your down B input you can get different heights to allow for different things.. Just throwin it out there.. Hope it gets put to use.

What else should I add.. Edgeguarding.. Well, a sex kick has the right knockback so that you can zair right after it (I've done this a few times) and homing missiles are slow enough so that you can catch up to them and dair right when they go off. It's kind of hard for the opponent to handle both coming at them.
 

ll Mafia ll

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Well, since I have experienced first hand what n00b is talking about, and have them in vids, I might as well show it to ya.

The first thing with bombs, for grapple edgeguarding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrNzX61YdWQ
Check out 3:02. It's the last kill of the match, and I get gimped.
So, just for my little blurb, it's very un expected if you have never seen it used in a match before. Also very annoying. I believe n00b did it to me twice over the course of our matches, and I didn't die the second time.

The second edge guarding thing.
Use the nair, and then zair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqoyb9w_TJE
It's around 36 seconds in.
Yeah, I actually died because of it... oh well.
Nevertheless, it is useful. NAIR is useful.

-------------------

I have done the ledgehop bomb cancel. Hmm, looks cool, but I would still have to try it out in matches to see what happens.

And, heck, just to add some more random info on bombs, full hop then bomb times the bomb so it blows up when hitting the ground

Oh, and I did a cool bomb thing, but I have to test it out more.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I've actually started using bombs a lot. While they don't insta-detonate like they did in Melee, they're still very useful...I mean they put a long lasting hitbox between you and the opponent, FORCING the opponent to do something other than a direct dash in order to close in on you. They're much safer to just lay down than Missiles are as they have less all around lag, and even the explosion has a slight lingering hitbox. I use them to get myself some breathing space so I can GTFO and missile/Zair spam some more.

I have a question: what do Samus players do to get around very short characters like Kirby or Olimar? Anything other than homing missiles or charge shots just go right over their heads, and Zair needs to be timed exactly if it's going to hit at all, making it a lot harder to use effectively.

Also: You cannot play Samus effectively on a controller that has a loose control stick...it's irritating to try to do triple missile and end up getting a super missile instead.
 
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