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Weekly Character Discussion: Falco

redgreenblue

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It's just a SH phantasm. You have to phantasm immediately after you jump, so you barely cover any vertical distance at all.

st. viers: yeah, but you can still get a game & watch to just stand still by faking lasers at them. Falco lasers are terrifying.

Also, I find a fair works slightly better than a nair in the chaingrab case. After you cg to the ledge, it doesn't really matter how much lag your next aerial has, yes? And fair has higher knockback and damage.
 

D1

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Good sh** Sethlon I heard good sh** about you from my boy NinjaLink in the Melee days. Glad to hear you're making Falco a beast.
 

Ulevo

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Also, I find a fair works slightly better than a nair in the chaingrab case. After you cg to the ledge, it doesn't really matter how much lag your next aerial has, yes? And fair has higher knockback and damage.
Fairs would likely work better, as they drag the opponent down as Falco falls until the final strike of the Fair sends them outwards. This would reduce the chance of them footstooling/spiking you afterwards as well.
 

Ayato

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As mentioned time and again, Falco's primary strengths are definitely his lasers and CG. Even without these, his air AND ground game are both excellent, making it very difficult to keep his strengths in check. Take his melee game, for example.

In melee range, Falco has ludicrous priority which sets him ahead of all but a select few (namely those with completely disjointed hitboxes, bar Olimar). His dash attack, while slow, can be cancelled into an up-smash, which at low percentages leads to 20%+ damage chains (this can often be done in lieu of chain grabbing based on the situation/opponent's character). Like Snake, the Boost Smash results in a fairly long slide which provides Falco's u-smash with even greater situational utility. The d-smash is quick, and if used carefully it will leave your enemy too far out of range to be punished for lag. Miss or get blocked and you're in trouble, but better Falco's shouldn't find this to be a problem. Utilt has amazing range that extends deceptively far on Falco's sides. Obviously, there's a decent hitbox above him, too. The utilt can be executed out of almost any move and can be used multiple times at low percents to rack up some serious damage. After that's all done with, he can lead into a bair, uair, or nair for further comboing (or pseudo comboing, based on percents). Dtilt is great for spacing or tossing your opponent into the air where Falco has a few reliable kill/combo moves (bair and uair come to mind). Having the highest initial jump in the game also lends itself to allowing Falco to chase even if he knocks his opponents too fair into the air. Ftilt also has great range and great spacing capacity. F-smash is a devastating killer, also with great range (though it's misleading for SSBM Falco mains at first, as he no longer moves quite as much). The jab combo is also an insane utility move which allows for spacing, stalling for some time to think and plan, and steady accumulation of damage. Overall, there's no finding a weak point in Falco's ground melee game. The priority on all of the aforementioned moves is excellent, even despite the fact that Falco's hitboxes are largely not disjointed. On the ground, it's a matter of overpowering Falco's melee moves, not trying to limit them.

His aerial approach is also phenomenal. To illustrate this, I'll use Olimar as a hypothetical opponent. Olimar has exceptional priority above and in front of him. The Pikmin afford him a disjointed hitbox which generally outprioritizes all characters who don't also have a disjointed hitbox (even Marth stands to see some difficulty approaching in the case of Olimar). Falco, however, can approach in a number of ways. His lasers can force Olimar out of his position if shorthopped while moving forward. Once Falco gets within aerial range, he can fall in on Olimar with a dair, nair, or turn around for a bair. The dair in particular shines here, as it can actually clash-cancel Olimar's insanely high-priority u-smash/utilt and leave him open for a follow-up attack. This also applies to other characters with disjointed hitboxes, such as Marth, Ike, Link, etc. Those without disjointed hitboxes or defense against Falco's lasers suffer from Falco's ability to approach without question. Thusly, his air->ground game shows great promise (though compared to his ground game, there are a few weaknesses, say Wolf and GW).

He also shines in his air-to-air combat. Bair has great range, knockback, and damaging ability. Couple that with its great priority and extended (though non-sweetspotish) hitbox time, and this easily gives Falco confidence when going toe-to-toe with anyone in the air. His insane jump height typically leaves him the option of dair, as the jumps will put you above your opponent more often than not (and since the dair is still a great move, even when you don't get the spike, this gives Falco even further utility while fighting in the air). Nair gives Falco great priority on both sides of his body and, while not particularly damaging, leads well into combos that are relatively close to the ground (particularly ones that end in his uair or bair, both of which are excellent kill moves). The landing lag on the nair is close to nothing, thus reinforcing the combo potential of this move. Furthermore, Falco's uair has improved significantly in this game, and if sweetspottted it can afford easy kills and/or damage. It also has reasonable landing lag and leaves decent room for some pseudo-combo followups. The only move in Falco's moveset that isn't at all viable is his fair. It has decent knockback when the fourth hit connects and can be used to kill near the edges, but the range, priority, and landing lag are all so terrible that the fair really lacks much function in Falco's play style. This, along with Falco's mediocre air acceleration, are perhaps the two greatest (if not only) drawbacks to Falco's air game. (Note: the fair is usable in select few situations, though generally these do not include anything that requires Falco to land after doing an fair). However, it's unfair to say that Falco's air acceleration is really any detriment, because one can't really expect him to accelerate like Wario and Jigglypuff. That would be broken.

Mind, everything I've said thusfar spells and confirms that Falco is a good character. I have barely mentioned combining these strategies with his special attack arsenal. The stuff above is enough to put Falco into the upper tiers, but the integration of his special moves is what really pushes him into the top.

That said, the incorporation of the laser is the first step toward making Falco top-tier material. Lasers are generally too slow to camp for more than the first few shots, so they're best used to approach or quickly force your enemy to approach. When firing the second laser (or first, pending on your preference and situation with the enemy) near the ground, if you've closed enough space you can lead into any of Falco's ground moves, bar F-smash. Utilt, ftilt, jab combo, and SH nair/dair are all great followups to a low laser. The key is to become confident in using and aiming your lasers at point blank range. If you're only using them to approach briefly and then dashing the rest of the way, you aren't maximizing the potential of the laser. Its critical that a good Falco player learns how to control this move in close quarters.

Also, apart from being an excellent recovery, the phantasm is great for offense. If spaced properly, it can lead fluidly into utilts, which themselves can lead into aerial followups and/or u/fsmash. It makes for an excellent approach and is somewhat difficult to counter. SH Phantasm is excellent for reducing the finishing lag and makes this move almost spammable, as does running or jumping off the ledge and phantasming back on. Ledgehopping this affords a good camp and recover strategy and can, again, start some decent combos.

The shine is a decent move, but I'm not as learned on this as I am on the others, so I won't offer comment.

Firebird isn't combat viable, and it's an easily gimpable recovery. This among the last of Falco's already few drawbacks. It's lost the knockback ability that it had in the previous game, and the range is still balls, so there's not much promise in this move.

I won't waste my breath reiterating what's been said about the CG, as Seth seems to have covered all the bases. The only thing that I can think to add is that there is a general rule of thumb for how long people can be CG'd by Falco, and that is this:
Lighter characters generally last up to 20-35%
Midweights last up to about 30-45%
Heavyweights last up to about 50%
And floaty characters generally can't be chain grabbed at all. (Luigi and Samus come to mind. I forget if they're actually able to break out on the first grab. I'm pretty sure they and Peach can, though).

Anyway, that is what makes Falco a deadly character. Even then, this was only a rough synopsis of the depth and potential that he has. In future tournaments, Falco will most definitely become an annoying adversary. The progression of his metagame will be among the more interesting ones.
 

St. Viers

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"He also shines in his air-to-air combat. Bair has great range, knockback, and damaging ability. Couple that with its great priority and extended (though non-sweetspotish) hitbox time, and this easily gives Falco confidence when going toe-to-toe with anyone in the air. His insane jump height typically leaves him the option of dair, as the jumps will put you above your opponent more often than not (and since the dair is still a great move, even when you don't get the spike, this gives Falco even further utility while fighting in the air). Nair gives Falco great priority on both sides of his body and, while not particularly damaging, leads well into combos that are relatively close to the ground (particularly ones that end in his uair or bair, both of which are excellent kill moves). The landing lag on the nair is close to nothing, thus reinforcing the combo potential of this move. Furthermore, Falco's uair has improved significantly in this game, and if sweetspottted it can afford easy kills and/or damage. It also has reasonable landing lag and leaves decent room for some pseudo-combo followups. The only move in Falco's moveset that isn't at all viable is his fair. It has decent knockback when the fourth hit connects and can be used to kill near the edges, but the range, priority, and landing lag are all so terrible that the fair really lacks much function in Falco's play style. This, along with Falco's mediocre air acceleration, are perhaps the two greatest (if not only) drawbacks to Falco's air game. (Note: the fair is usable in select few situations, though generally these do not include anything that requires Falco to land after doing an fair). However, it's unfair to say that Falco's air acceleration is really any detriment, because one can't really expect him to accelerate like Wario and Jigglypuff. That would be broken."

--I'd say that his air game is ill-suited to facing other characters air game. His range is comparatively small, and the only good hitboxes are vertical, so approaching someone has to be from below/above, which is partially determined by them.

You'd want to save his b-air for kills. He an function in the air, but it's mainly to go after grounded opponents or opponents who are being forced around. It's great for pressure, and to end chains, but I'd say as air-air games go it isn't too great.

If you want to say he has good aerials, just say that
 

Corner-Trap

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Falco is simply awesome. I rank him as the third best character right behind Snake and MK. Lasers are a incredibly versatile move, just count up the number of techniques involving that attack alone. Laser lock, SHL, SHDL, silent lasers, ledge hopped lasers, grounded lasers, faked lasers and whatever else we discover in the future. His CG is simply phenomenal and is probably tied with D3's as the second best behind the IC's. Getting 30%-50% into a spike or follow up attack is incredible, and now you can change directions during his CG with a reverse pivot grab. SH phantasm's are easily spammable and only a few characters can counter it, and even they have a hard time doing so. Falco just has so much potential and it's only a matter of time before he dominates tournaments.
 

Ayato

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It's true that Falco doesn't really have much air-air priority to his sides. Fair enough. Dair and uair are good for playing over/under in the air, though.
 

Ulevo

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I won't waste my breath reiterating what's been said about the CG, as Seth seems to have covered all the bases. The only thing that I can think to add is that there is a general rule of thumb for how long people can be CG'd by Falco, and that is this:
Lighter characters generally last up to 20-35%
Midweights last up to about 30-45%
Heavyweights last up to about 50%

And floaty characters generally can't be chain grabbed at all. (Luigi and Samus come to mind. I forget if they're actually able to break out on the first grab. I'm pretty sure they and Peach can, though).
Luigi and Samus can both be Chain Grabbed at least twice. Peach as well. Luigi is dangerous to Chain Grab however, due to his Up B. Samus will likely Nair you, and Peach can escape early with her Peach Bomber, but it leaves her open for an assault of your choice.
 

wasabicheese

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Falcos bair is actually very useful as a Wall of Pain'esque technique. by RARing (reverse arial rushing) towards the opponet, and following up with a quick second jump, the opponent may atk where u double jumped, after u got away (sort of mind-gamey) u can then pull an easy fast-falled bair off. i find this very effective, especially when you've already used some laser spam to throw them off their game a bit.
 

Mr.Trite

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I thought the whole point of SHDL was to have the lasers at different heights to catch people who try to jump ~_~

Ground lasers fire faster sure but the time it takes for Falco to take the gun out/put it away is a big enough sign to tell your opponent to jump for guaranteed safety.
 

zamz

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I thought the whole point of SHDL was to have the lasers at different heights to catch people who try to jump ~_~

Ground lasers fire faster sure but the time it takes for Falco to take the gun out/put it away is a big enough sign to tell your opponent to jump for guaranteed safety.
I always use SHDL to save myself from his lasor's lagtime.

'Guarenteed safety' becomes the least of Falco's worries :) . Standing on the ground and spamming lasors is easily punishable. Any character can jump through the lasor-spam and F-Air falco while he's putting his gun away. In fact, a good MetaKnight will take advantage of Falco's prone position and rack up a lot of damage. But when SHing, his lasor becomes nearly unpunishable. It is slower, but that's hardly a problem when the lasors work into easy combos. In fact, most opponents expect falco to attack in the air, but he can instead Lasor a person twice to stun them once they hit the ground. Then it builds into a quick AAA combo, a shine combo, or a smash. (Sometimes even a grab.)

I'd say SHing is the better option...as long as you aren't too predictable with them.
 

Smashless

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falco is one of the only characters that can really effectively outcamp toon link as well (him and pit spring to mind). Lasers travel far and fast, and the reflector, though temporary, is well suited to bust up slow moving arrows, bombs and lasers. Forcing TL players to approach is not something they're used to.
 

St. Viers

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zamz: that's what SHL is for--a lazer to control the height of, that has no ending lag

SHDL is too hit big targets/hit someone on platforms, trying to jump

standing laser is lof lazer lock, and forcing approaches

this has been mentioned earler in the thread >_<
 

Blad01

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Wow, so many posts in a few hours !

Everything has already been told, i won't say it again.
... But, let's try to sum up the situation ^^

Falco is simply very interesting due to his versatility : He can effectively fight at long, middle, or close range.
- He has a wonderful projectile, that he can use in a lot of differents goals;
- He has a Shine to reflect projectiles or even sometimes to stop approaches;
- He has a great chaingrab that can leads to free 45%;
- He has - besides his lasers and this CG- good moves to rack up damages (Dash Attack to Up Smash, Boost Smash, Imediate Aerial Phantasm, Dair),
- good strings beginners (Dair, Nair, A move, UTilt...);
- His aerial game is also very diversified with a good string beginner with good priority (Nair), a strong, long move with good range and priority (Bair), a Star KO finisher (Uair), and a spike (Dair) - that is accroding to me the second best spike in the game after Ganon's -. His only air move that is near useless is his Fair. However, as stated before, there is a useful edgeguarding use for it.
- His Ftilt has good range and good priority, and saves his front game on the ground.
- Ans, last but not least (:p), his smashes : His Usmash can be used both to rack up damages (after a CG, after a dash...), his Dsmash is a very good OoS move, and his FSmash is a great finisher. It is slow, but after a Powershield (something that will be mastered with the time), it is really great.

I know that, Falco will be soon Top Tier (and will become popular... :/), and his metagame's evolution is and will be interesting.

However, Falco has some weaknesses : He can be outprioritized by certain moves, and can dies early, due to his light weight. And I think that people will learn to fight him with success. By example, his match-up versus Snake is pretty even, and his evolution on both sides is very interesting to see.

Oh, and Sethlon, i would love if you could sometimes participate to this Match-Up discussion ;) You say that you can CG Snake until 45%, that everybody thinks (me included), but someone said that Snake can pull out a greande between two grabs. To verify ^^

Oh, ****, i've to work ^^"
 

Tommy_G

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If you regrab Snake fast enough, he cannot pull out a grenade.

I can see Falco being in Top tier, but he hasn't won tournies because he is not noob friendly to any extent.

Back Aerial, Down Aerial, Up aerial(it has a godly untapped potential for pillaring) , Neutral Air, Down Throw, Up-Tilt, Dash attack, Jab attack, Lasers, Phantasm, Laser Lock, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Up Smash...it's all too good. Just don't get hit.

Vertical recovery is horrible and he flies easily. You need to be able to DI with Falco.

Give people time to get use to him. He's on his way to top tier.
 

redgreenblue

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I thought the whole point of SHDL was to have the lasers at different heights to catch people who try to jump ~_~

Ground lasers fire faster sure but the time it takes for Falco to take the gun out/put it away is a big enough sign to tell your opponent to jump for guaranteed safety.
...what? Ground lasers are slower in every way! Also it's almost instant to take the gun out to shoot.
 

SpeedAcE

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Figured I'd come in here and say something productive about Falco, but everything has pretty much been said already. Crud.

Should've got here earlier.
 

Anth0ny

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I'd say that he's top tier. Chain grab is awesome, he's able to control the stage better than almost anyone else with his lasers, shine and even his forward b if neccesary. His spike is still amazing, and on the whole, his moveset is just great. Down, up and forward smash are all good/great kill moves that have good range.

Of course, the worst thing about Falco would have to be his up b recovery. But that's about the only con I could think of regarding him. His forward b is **** near ungimpable. Coming from a Marth main, the ftilt/jab that would stop Falco in his tracks in Melee just doesn't happen in Brawl (this is due to the increased speed in Falco's movement, not anything to do with Marth).

I'm surprised there haven't been many tournaments won by Falco yet, but I guarantee that that will change in the near future.
 

St. Viers

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--well, if you read the thread in the tactical discussion, they have a rather prominent notice telling people they moniter these char. threads, and reminding people of the requirements that users must fulful to get BR access.

I assume that this pulls people to try and enter these and sound smart, generally by taking what's already been said and tweaking it enough that is sounds different at first. (This makes me lol....I <3 BR mind games)
 

cman

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How can the length of the phantasm be altered? I've seen it happen, but can't figure it out.

I think falco's shine deserves a bit more mention. It's a great spacing and anti approach option, plus there is a high chance to trip the person. Also, it seems to give a large number to invincibility frames to projectiles while out (such as din's fire). Can anyone confirm this, and figure out if it applies to all projectiles that go over or otherwise?
 

joenopride

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A lot of what I would say about Falco has already been mentioned, so I'll try not to take too much time reiterating others posts.

Falco is definitely one of the people I struggle against constantly, mainly because of his laser and the chaingrab. His aerial combat isn't very strong, because of the low priority on some of his moves and awkward hitboxes, but most of his air move work good when the opponent is on the ground. He still seems pretty easy to combo and gimp kill because of his falling speed, but his recovery is pretty strong now with the buff the phantasm has received, and the auto cling to the edges for firebird. Forward smash is crazy, I get hit with it from behind, above, and other places I concievably shouldn't be getting hit, but I go flying anyways.

Overall, a strong character.
 

wasabicheese

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Falco is very amazing. his arial game actually disserves more credit, but not as people seem to believe. first of all, i find his arial interception game godly (aka somebody approuches u by air, and u jump up and hit them) because of his rapid rising speed and falling speed, and his arial mobility is pretty darn good too.
 

St. Viers

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I think it's the same way as melee: by pressing b at certain times during the attack. Because of the speed it comes out this seems harder than in melee.

COuld someone get some fact to support disprove me though---if it's done differently I'd love to know ^_^
 

wasabicheese

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for shrinking the phantasm? i personally mash B as soon as i've activated it, and it works almost every time. i've heard that the correct frame is about 1/4 of a second in(after falco has that little twitch but b4 he launches), and i can't get the the timing down, so i just mash B
 

redgreenblue

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for shrinking the phantasm? i personally mash B as soon as i've activated it, and it works almost every time. i've heard that the correct frame is about 1/4 of a second in(after falco has that little twitch but b4 he launches), and i can't get the the timing down, so i just mash B
Mashing is less precise and will negatively effect you eventually. The correct frame to cancel completely is the frame where you hear the "shing" noise.

Anyways, who cares if you get into the back room or not, really. There are plenty of intelligent posters on the forums already who don't have access to the smash back room. You can advance your game quite a lot without being an SBR member, you know. The reason I come to the falco board and this thread is to try and advanced falco's metagame. I'm sure many others also do the same, and are not participating "to get into the SBR".
 

St. Viers

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I have a dim view of human nature >_> Especially on people who just started posting here right after the thing came out ^_^

yo redgreenblue, can it only be canceled from the beginning, or does it have several points during the animation as well?
 

redgreenblue

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I have a dim view of human nature >_> Especially on people who just started posting here right after the thing came out ^_^

yo redgreenblue, can it only be canceled from the beginning, or does it have several points during the animation as well?
Several. I believe there are around three points (including the full cancel). But there may be more; testing at slowed down speed would help. In fact, I'll go test that now and come back with the results of the varying degrees of cancellation.

Edit: There are three different types of phantasms. Full cancel (one floor unit length), semi-cancel (three floor unit length), no cancel (5 floor unit length). This is all tested on the ground, the aerial versions are all identical except there is a larger length per phantasm (momentum + falling = further than just on ground). The floor units are basic floor blocks in the stage creator. All phantasms do exactly the same amount of damage.
 

wasabicheese

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Mashing is less precise and will negatively effect you eventually. The correct frame to cancel completely is the frame where you hear the "shing" noise.

Anyways, who cares if you get into the back room or not, really. There are plenty of intelligent posters on the forums already who don't have access to the smash back room. You can advance your game quite a lot without being an SBR member, you know. The reason I come to the falco board and this thread is to try and advanced falco's metagame. I'm sure many others also do the same, and are not participating "to get into the SBR".
ok thanks, i just got it to work how you said. thanks for the help!
 

cman

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Rate of fire is slower on ground and faster in the air... that's why people jump while shooting lasers.
Rate of fire is faster in the air, but needing to jump adds in enough time to make it slower overall than ground firing. I was under the impression that it was done solely because the lag after you finish ground firing leaves you very vulnerable, whereas firing in the air has little lag afterwards
 

Ulevo

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Rate of fire is faster in the air, but needing to jump adds in enough time to make it slower overall than ground firing. I was under the impression that it was done solely because the lag after you finish ground firing leaves you very vulnerable, whereas firing in the air has little lag afterwards
That may be correct for SHL, but SHDL takes full advantage of the time you spend during the short hop. Overall I think the lagless lasers are more important in this case, and ground lasers should be saved for the Laser Lock.

Hm, I also forgot to mention this in my great wall of text. Falco is still capable of Pillaring (Not necessarily by the shield wear term, mind you, but he can probably do that too). By continually altering between strong Dairs you can pop an opponent up and spike them immediately to the ground again, and either wait to do it again if they stay in place or go for a tech chase. At lower percents, it's a good way to rack damage and grab them for the Chain Grab. On higher percents, it's good to get a KO for the Bair if you're near the edge, or you can walk the tech and end it with a DSmash/FSmash/USmash.

Good stuff. * Nod *
 

Hylian

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I would just like to point out that skilled falco players are placing high in tournaments.

Sethlon won a recent texas tournament and got 2nd at the biggest texas tournament so far, only losing to me. But he probably desereved first, because he beat practically every good player there. I had an easy bracket, and played Sethlon 15 times in that 1 tournament lol.

As falco gets more popular we will definitly see his tournament placings skyrocket.
 

TheKneeOfJustice

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Falco is a weird character to say the least. He has a lot of tools, but each can feel situational. All in all he is definitely amongst the top echelon of characters, if not being one of the best. I think in time we will see more Falco's being played and placing where he should. Until then it is our responsibility to pioneer his metagame so he gains recognition as a character. Many top pros agree Falco has immense potential, and is one of the best available characters.
 
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