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We should talk about crouch cancelling

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
And what Falcon needs to do to get around it. We've talked about it before, but the obvious answer of "space better" just doesn't cut it, we need to be more specific. To start off, we should list the most relevant characters and the dangers that their crouch cancelling represents to us.

First we have the space animals. I think the most obvious danger they represent is shine. I've noticed that if you nair a space animal at low percentages, they can crouch cancel and shine you before the second hit even comes out. This is made more painful by the fact that they can just hit our foot, so spacing doesn't seem to be as effective of a way to stop it. Does this mean that we need to not nair them before a certain percentage? This also applies to gentlemans. This means that the way we act on a space animals shield has to be different at low percentages. If we're trying to aerial into gentleman on their shield, it's easy enough to just drop their shield and crouch cancel our gentlemans. So how do we get them to a percentage where we can not be crouch cancel shined?

First off, we should actually learn for sure what that percentage is! Do any of you know it? It's going to change based on the spacing, but we should still have a very good idea of when it's likely to happen. With that in mind, it seems to me that nair and gentleman are much less useful at low percentages, and moves like bair, uair, and grab rise in effectiveness. Stomp is safe on crouch cancel, but it seems very difficult to just land a stomp on a space animal. I think that if you land low bairs or uairs on a crouch cancelling space animal, you won't get hit by shine at all if you spaced it well, and you can avoid stuff like fsmash from falco and usmash from fox by just dashing away.

Grab is obviously an amazing way to build damage, but it's not like that's the safest thing to try either. We all know that the spacies spotdodge is amazing, and if you grab a spotdodge you're probably going to get shined, which could mean your stock against either one of them. Unfortunately, I don't think (I could be wrong) that our grab range is high enough to outrange shine, and if it is, it's certainly difficult to do consistently, which means we need to be a step ahead mentally at all times. So the goal is to not be tricked into falling for this trap, but you need to be able to recognize the situations that the space animal is likely to spotdodge. How do you start a match with a fox or falco that you've never played against and instantly recognize when they're going to spotdodge at low percentages? I think one good way to condition space animals into spotdodging is by kneegrabbing their shield. If you do it once, and tech chase them to death with it, it's going to put the fear of god into their tiny fur covered hearts. But we also need to recognize when they do it defensively to get out of combos. Most space animals seem to spotdodge a lot when they're afraid of getting regrabbed out of techchases, but I'm sure there are hundreds of other situations that spacies all over the world are going to be tempted to buffer a spotdodge in.

With all of these things in mind, I'd like to get your guys feedback, and see what you guys think about the things I've said. If I get positive feedback on this, I can go on with other characters.

Here are a few questions for you guys. What do you think about first hit of nair as a way to build damage at early percentages? We can use it as a hit and run type of move, and if they try to crouch cancel it into a smash or shine or something, we can just dash back in and punish it. And what do you guys think about using Usmash as a way to solidly cover spotdodges? If it fully connects, I don't need to tell you guys what a fun time that can lead to (for proof, look at Hax vs Javi) and even if it gets crouch cancelled, you're just in a tech chase situation with them. What other ways do you guys think you can rely on to build damage in the early percentages while avoiding crouch cancelling? I'd love to hear your guys feedback.
 

Grinin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
220
Location
Houston, TX
Bait more. Something you can see pretty much any top falcon do at one point in time or another is throw out low-lag moves like nair at a safe distance to bait an approach and then punish with well spaced retreating bairs, stomps, or pivot nairs.

Also, late spaced up airs are a really good anti-crouch cancel option. Space them so the hit comes out as late as possible (to the point where you can hardly see the animation) and make sure you space as optimally as possible (tips of the feet, duh). I'm not sure at what percent, but this will sometimes knockdown CCers and force a missed tech or scoop them into the air for a combo/tech chase starter if you catch them off guard. It's also really good against floaties that like to CC a lot like Peach and Samus.

Most important thing is to mix up your options. Spacies will catch on to your antics pretty quickly if you go for the same stuff over and over.
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
We need to test and figure out what percentage they'll get knocked down by uair though. The falcon boards are lacking a lot of percentage knowledge.
 

Hax

Smash Champion
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
2,552
Location
20XX
good thread

we should also discuss how falcon can utilize crouch-cancelling. without a good grounded combo-starter like shine or sheik ftilt, falcon's method of punishing after cc'ing something is almost exclusively grabbing. he can't be as abusive with it as the top characters, but cc -> grab is still essential. discussion of when to cc -> grab would be extremely helpful (even to me -- it's something i'm working on implementing more)

maybe i'll post more later about characteristics of Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff/Sheik/Marth/Peach's cc's and how to deal with them
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Yah that'd be super helpful. There's a lot of matchups I know very little about (jiggs and peach for the main part) I have a good idea about how they abuse CC, but I can't be super specific. But we should discuss how all of them can abuse it against us, and how we can abuse it against them. We should also discuss how CC changes the way we need to combo them. Like, if we uair a falco on a platform, normally we can just uair into x, depending on the percentage, but with crouch cancelling they might just slide to the edge of the platform, or even slide to the edge and fall off. We need to be able to continue the combo either way, if it's at all possible.
 

McFlyy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
15
At low percents, I think I try grabbing them without being too obvious about it. Kind of dangerous, but worth it if you can pull it off because it can also lead to an early gimp for them as well. Uairs/Nairs work well at higher percents but just don't really cut it in terms of safety at those low percents.

Sometimes (but definitely not all of the time), if I know they are going to crouch cancel, I'll try not to gum myself up with an attack so that I'm still free to move around as I please and gauge their reaction from their. More often than not it throws them off too, because they were most likely expecting an attack. It's probably why they were crouch canceling in the first place, at an attempt to play defensively. Like Grinin said "Bait more"

I usually like these discussion threads... More please :)
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
It's nice to discuss them, but I plan to do a lot of testing so we can be more specific. It'd be nice to know exactly when we can start using nair and uair on different characters and stuff, and we need a lot of percentage info anyways. For example, do any of you know when you can start dthrow kneeing peach without getting naired out of it? Because I sure don't. I"m hoping to put a lot of work into figuring this stuff out and recording it on here in the near future.
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
cc grab vs fox is nice. forces them to use dairs or some other stuff. but you can sdi or di out of drill kicks. which is nice.
 

McFlyy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
15
First, make a list of all the things you'd want to know. I suppose that should be step one

How far exactly do you plan on testing all this? Because it would be pretty sweet if you made a list of ALL the aerials or even ground attacks and their effects at certain percentages while the opponent is crouch canceling.

But you also say you want to figure out perfect Dthrow setups on Peach. That's an entirely new subject. If you plan on doing testing for that, you would also have to factor in DI and Hitstun.

Idk, I'm just rambling. I guess all I'm asking is, what exactly are you trying to learn?
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Well, I was just giving another example of where we're lacking in how much we know about Falcon. To be honest, I have a project going testing pretty much all of these things. I'm planning on eventually releasing something that has the effects of all of our moves at certain percentages, and what percentages any combo I can think of works on all of the relevant characters, and how crouch cancelling and DI effects it. It's going to take a while though, but it should be very complete, and helpful when I finally finish it.
 

oksas

oak-sauce
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
458
from the frontpage the title to the this gets cut off and i keep reading it as

"We should talk about crotch..."
 

McFlyy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
15
Well, I was just giving another example of where we're lacking in how much we know about Falcon. To be honest, I have a project going testing pretty much all of these things. I'm planning on eventually releasing something that has the effects of all of our moves at certain percentages, and what percentages any combo I can think of works on all of the relevant characters, and how crouch cancelling and DI effects it. It's going to take a while though, but it should be very complete, and helpful when I finally finish it.
That's what I was hoping you'd say. Sounds pretty legit, though I could imagine how long the DI testing might take considering you can DI in 360 directions.

Would be a neat list. I mean, Fox has one for how characters behave after getting hit from his shine on the ground and in the air. I thought that was pretty helpful when I first read it. I could only imagine how helpful a list of all C. Falcons setups would be
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Well I was just hoping to do how the combos work with DI up, DI in, DI away, DI down and away (since it's proper in most cases) and DI down/crouch cancelling. Oh and neutral DI.
 

_wzrd

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
438
Location
Waikoloa, Hawaii
Well, I was just giving another example of where we're lacking in how much we know about Falcon. To be honest, I have a project going testing pretty much all of these things. I'm planning on eventually releasing something that has the effects of all of our moves at certain percentages, and what percentages any combo I can think of works on all of the relevant characters, and how crouch cancelling and DI effects it. It's going to take a while though, but it should be very complete, and helpful when I finally finish it.
damn dude, sounds dope.

mini m2k in the house. could really help falcons meta
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
People should really read through the falcon compendium. There is a post in their that lists all of marth's and I think shiek's cc percents for their moves. Pretty useful stuff.
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Oh that's definitely going to be included. I'll post an incomplete form of the project when I'm ready, and that way I can just fill it out as I go and also accept help from anyone who wants to give it.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
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Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Well since I have some time on my hands today (job hunt is over yay), I figured I would put together falcon's cc data on atleast the top tiers. Hopefully I will have it up by late today/tomorrow depending on distractions
 

j00t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
2,194
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North AL
good thread

we should also discuss how falcon can utilize crouch-cancelling. without a good grounded combo-starter like shine or sheik ftilt, falcon's method of punishing after cc'ing something is almost exclusively grabbing. he can't be as abusive with it as the top characters, but cc -> grab is still essential. discussion of when to cc -> grab would be extremely helpful (even to me -- it's something i'm working on implementing more)

maybe i'll post more later about characteristics of Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff/Sheik/Marth/Peach's cc's and how to deal with them
I'm trying to think of scenarios where cc -> grab is useful and I just don't see them. Against spacies cc -> dair or cc -> bair is better since most of the time they'll land behind you with their aerials.

And you're never going to grab a Sheik, Peach or Marth out of CC unless their spacing is sloppy. It's really just something you should react to and you shouldn't make it a focus of your game.

Just my 2 cents
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
But if they land behind you, often they'll have turned you around. CC grab is amazing in plenty of situations, if we get a grab we are licensed to kill.
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
That's awesome. I'll be able to help you starting hopefully next weekend.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
So everyone in the top tier besides captain falcon is done, I plan on holding off on him, because my next bit is to check other people cc % against falcon's moves. Also I am a ****ing idiot I forgot about this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=111814
Also we should grab a mod so we can use this data to update the frame data thread for falcon.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Wow, yes I am. If you got a gmail I can share the Excel sheet with you.
Also sorry for some reason I thought 0room did it.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Took a small hiatus this week from filling out falcons data, getting back to it this weekend. Probably clean up the finsihed characters a bit.
 

Hax

Smash Champion
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
2,552
Location
20XX
I'm trying to think of scenarios where cc -> grab is useful and I just don't see them. Against spacies cc -> dair or cc -> bair is better since most of the time they'll land behind you with their aerials.

And you're never going to grab a Sheik, Peach or Marth out of CC unless their spacing is sloppy. It's really just something you should react to and you shouldn't make it a focus of your game.

Just my 2 cents
cc grab is great for creating 50-50's when someone is directly above you. you make cc grab / **** them with uairs a 50-50 in situations where they can quick aerial out of the initial uair. this aerial loses to cc grab

this tactic is good vs everyone other than Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff. Fox and Falco can shine after the aerial to avoid getting cc grabbed, and Jigglypuff should never ever have to land in front of you in a cc grab-able situation

it's good vs everyone in the neutral game as well except for Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff (for the same reasons as above), Peach, Pikachu, and Ice Climbers (when they have both). Peach's fc'd aerials should never get cc grabbed, Pikachu's jab makes a lot of situations impossible to cc grab in, and vs IC's, it's only not good because the optimal way to punish 2 characters is almost never grab. it generally requires a big mistake on the Peach/Pikachu's part to be useful in the neutral game. all the viable characters other than these, though, have frame disadvantage on a lot of stuff in the neutral game if they get cc'd and aren't perfectly spaced
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Small update on cc data gathering. Had to take a small hiatus due to getting ready to move to Texas. Need to finish falcon's move data on jiggs, peach, falcon and ice's. After that I need to polish falcon's cc data a bit and double check it. After that I'll get what I have on the boards.
 

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Alright sweet, I appreciate it. By the way, you should come to WNY and play before you move.
 
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