Haha don't put yourself down I love suggestions from other people, I'll run it over with Gimp when he pms me back.
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We <3 Magus420 (plus DS tech guide) 12/17 Pivot guide update
- Thread starter Witchking_of_Angmar
- Start date
Oracle
Smash Master
Take away the mic announcement. It's pretty obvious now.
Uhhh.... thats all I can think of.
Uhhh.... thats all I can think of.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Since I wanted to kind of turn this into a guide over time, I'll start with something easy: I'll just translate a previous guide of mine about Double Stick Techs into English. I originally posted it in the German Boards in the third post of this thread after reading this and the posts following. Since this is really more of a translation of German into English rather than an originally English text, there might be some unusual/harsh wording in places where I didn't translate as well. I apologize for these inconveniences.
As you can probably guess from the name, Double Stick Techs (from here on referred to as simply DS Techs) require the use of both the Control Stick as well as the C-Stick. The principle is the same as for DS DI: You use the C-Stick to ASDI in one direction and the Control Stick to DI in a different one.
What you want to achieve to even make it possible to tech the hit is that you slide along the floor, rather than flying through the air. To do this, you need to first ASDI down. This is done by holding the C-Stick down. Second of all, you want to alter the original trajectory as much as possible from the original (flying into the air to die) to what you need (hugging the ground). That is why you have to DI perpendicular to the original flight trajectory of the move you are about to get hit by. And since there are two perpendicular ways you could DI and you wanna hit the floor, you have to DI perpendicular and down. A possible example is Marth's fsmash. It hits you at a ~45° angle up. What you want to do with the control stick now is move it into the groove on the control stick exactly between "to the side" (depending on what side you're facing) and down.
Teching deserves its own paragraph. Since you can't press L/R to tech during hitlag (with a few exceptions which I won't get into here, just read Doraki's guide), you have to press L/R before the hit. However, since teching only has a 20 frame window, you need to make sure it is as late as possible before the actual hit. This is simply tricky timing, and requires a good deal of practice to be able to do consistently. If you fail the tech, you will simply slide along the floor with a ton of momentum.
In summary: C-Stick down, Control Stick perpendicular (towards the ground), tech before the hit.
Some of you are probably thinking: "That's all fine and good, but what use does it have in a real match?" The key to being able to use this technique is knowing for certain you are gonna get hit. Missed rests and shieldbreaks are the obvious situations, but there are other possible ones as well, if you have practiced the inputs well enough. Sheik often lags enough that a tipper fsmash is a near certain punishment. A baited (and subsequently missed) grapple from the Links or Samus is also a possible situation. Maybe even after a missed Falcon/Warlock Punch. The possibilities are there, if you're good enough.
There are several factors that can affect the usefulness of Double Stick Techs. Here are the most important ones:
*Weight* Apparently, heavier characters can DS tech at highter percents than lighter ones, due to the fact that weight reduces knockback speed.
*Recovery* Since you retain a lot of momentum from the hit, you are sent off the stage very quickly. You need to recover well to be able to make it back. If you do not, you may die despite a successful tech, and that would be a shame.
*Traction* Traction is very important for double stick techs because the lower your traction is, the farther and faster you fly off the stage after the tech. Luigi is very bad at DS techs because of his ridiculously low traction.
*Fall speed* The higher your fall speed, the higher the percents at which you are still able to double stick tech.
*Tech roll* A tech roll agains towards the stage can greatly reduce your momentum from the hit and allow you to survive.
*Hitlag- really important* One factor very important for DS techs is how the hurtboxes of your character deform after a 10 frames of hitlag or more. For most character, their hurtboxes get lifted off the floor, which completely prevents you from being able to double stick tech. Common attacks with 10 frames of hitlag are electro attacks, which cause 50% more hitlag for the victim. Here is a list of characters that get ***** by these attacks as their hurtboxes are lifted off the ground after 10 frames of hitlag. Compiled by Magus.
"Bowser .......... YES
Captain Falcon .. YES
Donkey Kong ..... NO
Dr Mario ........ YES
Falco ........... YES
Fox ............. YES
Game & Watch .... NO
Ganondorf ....... YES
Ice Climbers .... YES (small)
Jigglypuff ...... NO
Kirby ........... NO
Link ............ YES
Luigi ........... YES
Mario ........... YES
Marth ........... YES
Mewtwo .......... YES (barely)
Ness ............ YES
Peach ........... YES
Pichu ........... YES (small)
Pikachu ......... YES (small)
Roy ............. YES
Samus ........... YES
Sheik ........... YES
Yoshi ........... YES
Young Link ...... YES
Zelda ........... YES
-DK, G&W, Jiggs, & Kirby have no reduced ability to tech high hitlag attacks.
-Mewtwo has a slightly lowered ability.
-ICs, Pikachu, & Pichu may be able to but it will be significantly worse.
-Everyone else probably won't be able to DS tech high hitlag attacks at any decent percent if at all.
I also wasn't correct in what I said back then about weight. It actually seems to follow weight a lot more than fall speed (fall speed acceleration is what matters in this case). I imagine it's because the reduced launch speed has more of an effect at that point in time than fallspeed accel.
Also, a neat thing against Peach's D-Smash (because it sends backwards) is that if you DS tech and release the buttons before your techroll ends, you'll enter the teeter animation and it will prevent you from sliding off. If you walk/crouch/shield/etc you'll slip off though if you still have momentum."
^Unchanged phrasing exactly from Magus.
Double Stick Techs
How To: The Button Inputs
As you can probably guess from the name, Double Stick Techs (from here on referred to as simply DS Techs) require the use of both the Control Stick as well as the C-Stick. The principle is the same as for DS DI: You use the C-Stick to ASDI in one direction and the Control Stick to DI in a different one.
What you want to achieve to even make it possible to tech the hit is that you slide along the floor, rather than flying through the air. To do this, you need to first ASDI down. This is done by holding the C-Stick down. Second of all, you want to alter the original trajectory as much as possible from the original (flying into the air to die) to what you need (hugging the ground). That is why you have to DI perpendicular to the original flight trajectory of the move you are about to get hit by. And since there are two perpendicular ways you could DI and you wanna hit the floor, you have to DI perpendicular and down. A possible example is Marth's fsmash. It hits you at a ~45° angle up. What you want to do with the control stick now is move it into the groove on the control stick exactly between "to the side" (depending on what side you're facing) and down.
Teching deserves its own paragraph. Since you can't press L/R to tech during hitlag (with a few exceptions which I won't get into here, just read Doraki's guide), you have to press L/R before the hit. However, since teching only has a 20 frame window, you need to make sure it is as late as possible before the actual hit. This is simply tricky timing, and requires a good deal of practice to be able to do consistently. If you fail the tech, you will simply slide along the floor with a ton of momentum.
In summary: C-Stick down, Control Stick perpendicular (towards the ground), tech before the hit.
Where and when: Applicability
Some of you are probably thinking: "That's all fine and good, but what use does it have in a real match?" The key to being able to use this technique is knowing for certain you are gonna get hit. Missed rests and shieldbreaks are the obvious situations, but there are other possible ones as well, if you have practiced the inputs well enough. Sheik often lags enough that a tipper fsmash is a near certain punishment. A baited (and subsequently missed) grapple from the Links or Samus is also a possible situation. Maybe even after a missed Falcon/Warlock Punch. The possibilities are there, if you're good enough.
Special Circumstances
There are several factors that can affect the usefulness of Double Stick Techs. Here are the most important ones:
*Weight* Apparently, heavier characters can DS tech at highter percents than lighter ones, due to the fact that weight reduces knockback speed.
*Recovery* Since you retain a lot of momentum from the hit, you are sent off the stage very quickly. You need to recover well to be able to make it back. If you do not, you may die despite a successful tech, and that would be a shame.
*Traction* Traction is very important for double stick techs because the lower your traction is, the farther and faster you fly off the stage after the tech. Luigi is very bad at DS techs because of his ridiculously low traction.
*Fall speed* The higher your fall speed, the higher the percents at which you are still able to double stick tech.
*Tech roll* A tech roll agains towards the stage can greatly reduce your momentum from the hit and allow you to survive.
*Hitlag- really important* One factor very important for DS techs is how the hurtboxes of your character deform after a 10 frames of hitlag or more. For most character, their hurtboxes get lifted off the floor, which completely prevents you from being able to double stick tech. Common attacks with 10 frames of hitlag are electro attacks, which cause 50% more hitlag for the victim. Here is a list of characters that get ***** by these attacks as their hurtboxes are lifted off the ground after 10 frames of hitlag. Compiled by Magus.
"Bowser .......... YES
Captain Falcon .. YES
Donkey Kong ..... NO
Dr Mario ........ YES
Falco ........... YES
Fox ............. YES
Game & Watch .... NO
Ganondorf ....... YES
Ice Climbers .... YES (small)
Jigglypuff ...... NO
Kirby ........... NO
Link ............ YES
Luigi ........... YES
Mario ........... YES
Marth ........... YES
Mewtwo .......... YES (barely)
Ness ............ YES
Peach ........... YES
Pichu ........... YES (small)
Pikachu ......... YES (small)
Roy ............. YES
Samus ........... YES
Sheik ........... YES
Yoshi ........... YES
Young Link ...... YES
Zelda ........... YES
-DK, G&W, Jiggs, & Kirby have no reduced ability to tech high hitlag attacks.
-Mewtwo has a slightly lowered ability.
-ICs, Pikachu, & Pichu may be able to but it will be significantly worse.
-Everyone else probably won't be able to DS tech high hitlag attacks at any decent percent if at all.
I also wasn't correct in what I said back then about weight. It actually seems to follow weight a lot more than fall speed (fall speed acceleration is what matters in this case). I imagine it's because the reduced launch speed has more of an effect at that point in time than fallspeed accel.
Also, a neat thing against Peach's D-Smash (because it sends backwards) is that if you DS tech and release the buttons before your techroll ends, you'll enter the teeter animation and it will prevent you from sliding off. If you walk/crouch/shield/etc you'll slip off though if you still have momentum."
^Unchanged phrasing exactly from Magus.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
First of all, bump for great justice. Second of all, Magus' posts on pivoting combined.
The very first thing you should learn when you attempt to master pivoting is the empty pivot. That in itself is very very useful because it gives you all kinds of spacing option and basically leads right up to pivoting almost every other move. If you can do this, the majority of moves are going to be a breeze to pivot. In theory, the empty pivot is very easy to execute. You dash one way, then flick your Control Stick in the opposite direction. The dash is simple (I hope). For the flick, make sure that you only move the control stick far enough for your character to turn around, and then release the stick. This part is easier if your Control Stick is still "tight" and moves back to the neutral position very quickly. So basically:
1. Dash
2. Flick (opposite direction) & release stick
I like to put moves in three different categories for pivoting. The first group is moves that are easy to pivot. For these you pretty much just do your standard empty pivot, and press the right button. Basically, this is jumps, grabs, jabs, and all smashes if you do them with the C-Stick. The second group is tilts. These are hard to do because if you used the above method, you just let go of your Stick so it could return to the neutral position. If you're going to tilt, you now have to quickly grab the Control Stick again and move it in the direction you desire and press A. Most of the time, this is inconveniently slow. The workarounds will be discussed later.The last group is B Moves, which, for reasons I am not aware of, cannot be pivoted using the "flick" method. This isn't much of a problem for forward or up B moves, as you can simply JC the up B and you can do forward B's at any time during the dash anyway. [You can actually pivot all B moves except neutral B moves. I'm terribly sorry.] However, it does mean you cannot pivot down or neutral B moves. This might not be a problem for some, but I could envision plenty of potential for pivoted shieldbreakers, needles, shines and inhales that remains unrealized.
1. Easy moves
2. Tilts
3. B Moves
This is really easy. Here's the deal: you pivot. And then you press your button. Pretty much as soon as you release the control stick. It's fast, it's easy, it's very effective. Pivot jabs are good for shield pressure. Pivot grabs are essential for Fastliketree grabs and other shenanigans. Pivoting jumps allows you to pivot shffl/fhffl aerials or even wavedashs, if you're good, although this is pretty hard. Pivoting smashes is obvious: you run away, then hit them hard, or smash out of your dash dance to suprise your opponent. Run forward, pivot back and smash in the direction you were running to do smashes out of your dash. Of course, then there's just the general applicability of spacing any of these moves more precisely using pivoting. The possibilites are pretty much endless.
1. "Empty" ( I mean, you're about to fill it) pivot
2. Press a button (Z, A, X/Y, L/R, C-Stick)
Tilts have a good deal more potential than the easier moves because they're normally faster, weaker versions of smashes, with good range and low lag. This makes them perfect spacing tools when combined with pivoting. HugS uses pivot ftilts to a good degree as far as I know. However, unless you want your pivoted tilts to be slow as hell (as outlined above), they're pretty **** hard to do. Magus has some nifty tricks on how to actually do this.
1. The first method is to simply not flick the stick. Instead, you slowly move it across the center to the other side. There's several things you also need to be aware of. First of all, don't move it across all the way to the other side. Secondly, you no longer press A when the control stick is at the center. When the control stick is about at 3/4 of the way to the side is when you should press A. You move the control stick to the other side, and when it's about at 3/4 you release it and press A at almost the same time. You actually want to delay the A press a bit so it occurs after the control stick starts moving back to neutral. The timing can be very tricky, so be patient when practicing this. It's also kind of hard to explain; if you feel like you're getting nowhere, vary your timing a little. The problem may even lie with the controller itself.
1. Dash
2. Slowly move the control stick across to 3/4
3. Release then press A at (almost) the same time.
Also note that doing this will result in a forward tilt. To do a d/utilt, you have to pretty much just roll the control stick in that direction while doing the pivot. Be careful with utilts though, as moving the control stick too far will result in a jump. Magus really puts it better than I do, so just read his post.
1. Flick a dash in a direction
2. Control Stick moves to neutral
3. Move at moderate speed in opposite direction
4. Press A when you're most of the way there
I already covered most of this in the "Pivoting different moves" section, so there isn't much to write here.Basically, if you want to pivot neutral/down B Moves, you have to do pivoting the DA Dash way, which is essentially timing the move on the exact frame that your character is standing from the dash. I can only do this with forward smashes and have failed with every other move. It's terribly hard, and in my opinion not worth the effort when you could be learning useful stuff. You can also sometimes circumvent the problem of not being able to pivot n/d b moves by jumping first. Just realize that this gives you anywhere from 4-8 frames of extra startup time, as well as possibly leaving you open more. It's just a possibility.
Magus informed me that it is in fact possible to pivot down b moves. My fail. I am also wrong about pivoting using DA dashing. No matter how you pivot, you cannot pivot neutral b moves.
~~~~~~~~~~
As for applicability, you'll have to find most of that out yourself. I covered some of it, but again, the possibilities are endless. Be creative!
Pivoting Basics/Empty Pivots
The very first thing you should learn when you attempt to master pivoting is the empty pivot. That in itself is very very useful because it gives you all kinds of spacing option and basically leads right up to pivoting almost every other move. If you can do this, the majority of moves are going to be a breeze to pivot. In theory, the empty pivot is very easy to execute. You dash one way, then flick your Control Stick in the opposite direction. The dash is simple (I hope). For the flick, make sure that you only move the control stick far enough for your character to turn around, and then release the stick. This part is easier if your Control Stick is still "tight" and moves back to the neutral position very quickly. So basically:
1. Dash
2. Flick (opposite direction) & release stick
Pivoting Different Moves
I like to put moves in three different categories for pivoting. The first group is moves that are easy to pivot. For these you pretty much just do your standard empty pivot, and press the right button. Basically, this is jumps, grabs, jabs, and all smashes if you do them with the C-Stick. The second group is tilts. These are hard to do because if you used the above method, you just let go of your Stick so it could return to the neutral position. If you're going to tilt, you now have to quickly grab the Control Stick again and move it in the direction you desire and press A. Most of the time, this is inconveniently slow. The workarounds will be discussed later.
1. Easy moves
2. Tilts
3. B Moves
First Group: The Easy Ones
This is really easy. Here's the deal: you pivot. And then you press your button. Pretty much as soon as you release the control stick. It's fast, it's easy, it's very effective. Pivot jabs are good for shield pressure. Pivot grabs are essential for Fastliketree grabs and other shenanigans. Pivoting jumps allows you to pivot shffl/fhffl aerials or even wavedashs, if you're good, although this is pretty hard. Pivoting smashes is obvious: you run away, then hit them hard, or smash out of your dash dance to suprise your opponent. Run forward, pivot back and smash in the direction you were running to do smashes out of your dash. Of course, then there's just the general applicability of spacing any of these moves more precisely using pivoting. The possibilites are pretty much endless.
1. "Empty" ( I mean, you're about to fill it) pivot
2. Press a button (Z, A, X/Y, L/R, C-Stick)
Second Group: Tilts
Tilts have a good deal more potential than the easier moves because they're normally faster, weaker versions of smashes, with good range and low lag. This makes them perfect spacing tools when combined with pivoting. HugS uses pivot ftilts to a good degree as far as I know. However, unless you want your pivoted tilts to be slow as hell (as outlined above), they're pretty **** hard to do. Magus has some nifty tricks on how to actually do this.
1. The first method is to simply not flick the stick. Instead, you slowly move it across the center to the other side. There's several things you also need to be aware of. First of all, don't move it across all the way to the other side. Secondly, you no longer press A when the control stick is at the center. When the control stick is about at 3/4 of the way to the side is when you should press A. You move the control stick to the other side, and when it's about at 3/4 you release it and press A at almost the same time. You actually want to delay the A press a bit so it occurs after the control stick starts moving back to neutral. The timing can be very tricky, so be patient when practicing this. It's also kind of hard to explain; if you feel like you're getting nowhere, vary your timing a little. The problem may even lie with the controller itself.
1. Dash
2. Slowly move the control stick across to 3/4
3. Release then press A at (almost) the same time.
Also note that doing this will result in a forward tilt. To do a d/utilt, you have to pretty much just roll the control stick in that direction while doing the pivot. Be careful with utilts though, as moving the control stick too far will result in a jump. Magus really puts it better than I do, so just read his post.
2. The other method is to flick the Control Stick for the first dash, before you pivot. You let the Control Stick go to the neutral position and from there you the stick to the other side (opposite of the one you dashed to) and press A when you're most of the way there. If you do it right there is no way to f-smash, the only way you can mess up is to dash attack. This way, you only have to worry about the timing of A, at least once you have the speed at which you have to move the stick down. As far as I know, this method can also be manipulated for d/utilts by moving the control stick up/down while moving it forward for the pivot.
1. Flick a dash in a direction
2. Control Stick moves to neutral
3. Move at moderate speed in opposite direction
4. Press A when you're most of the way there
Third Group: B Moves
I already covered most of this in the "Pivoting different moves" section, so there isn't much to write here.
Magus informed me that it is in fact possible to pivot down b moves. My fail. I am also wrong about pivoting using DA dashing. No matter how you pivot, you cannot pivot neutral b moves.
~~~~~~~~~~
As for applicability, you'll have to find most of that out yourself. I covered some of it, but again, the possibilities are endless. Be creative!
Magus420
Smash Master
Nice thread xD
Unless there are specific exceptions or it was randomly taken out in later versions of the game, you can pivot all B moves except neutral B. You can't pivot neutral-Bs with the flick method or DA dash method. Something about the turning animation doesn't allow neutral Bs. Same thing if you stand still and just turn the other way and try to neutral B since it's the same animation.
Unless there are specific exceptions or it was randomly taken out in later versions of the game, you can pivot all B moves except neutral B. You can't pivot neutral-Bs with the flick method or DA dash method. Something about the turning animation doesn't allow neutral Bs. Same thing if you stand still and just turn the other way and try to neutral B since it's the same animation.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Oh, alright, I'll edit that. I suppose it's just me screwing up. Can you actually pivot neutral B moves using DA dashing? I'm not actually sure, it was more of a theory to be honest.
Reading is a useful tool.
Reading is a useful tool.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
This hasn't had a reply in almost a month.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
You should. I only actually managed to pivot ftilts as I was writing this guide, it opens up crazy options. Pivoting ftilts with Fox perfectly spaced on people's shields is hilarious and ****.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Well thanks Magus and Witchking as I can now pivot 90% of the time using Magus's method with only a few minutes of practice actually. Thanks also for bumping the thread as I'd forgotten about it and haven't checked out all the links yet.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
It's amazing, amirite? I still can't really pivot u/d tilts the fast way, just empty pivot->tilt. Still, most of the time that's fast enough anyway, and ftilts help a lot already.
SpaceFalcon
Smash Lord
Great thread, what a way to start off the 2009 meta game.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
I'd really love to see more pivoting in everyone's game. I think it would be really awesome if it became a staple in top level play. The difficulty is overrated and its usefulness underrated.
TidalWave
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2008
- Messages
- 159
10 agreements
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
yay. <3 witchking
witchking love :D
indie_dave
Smash Ace
bumpsies
10<3
10<3
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I get to play with Magus all the time and I've been playing with him since January 2006.
He's best when drunk. Seriously.
Also, this thread is awesome.
He's best when drunk. Seriously.
Also, this thread is awesome.
thataintflaco1338
Smash Journeyman
UPDATE YOUR SIGGY, MR MAGUS.
dd
dd
Magus420
Smash Master
I need a new free host that allows php and works with my script. The one I was using changed their policies and I can't use images from other domains in the script anymore (imageshack in this case), and their file size limit is like 500kb or something dumb so I can't put the images there to use with the script.
thataintflaco1338
Smash Journeyman
Hmm. Well when you're done with yours help me with mine plz cuz it wont work anymore.
Magus, lets play drunken meleeI get to play with Magus all the time and I've been playing with him since January 2006.
He's best when drunk. Seriously.
Also, this thread is awesome.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
magus is a sexy sonnuvaho. you know how many powershields he misses?
not a lot.
not a lot.
Grunt
Smash Master
I wanna see Magus play on crack.
Kite91
Mada Mada Dane
i wanna play magus lol but when i got into melee he stop playing alot, my friends played him and Joker and won but i wanna try his ganon XD
This thread isn't active enough
My double sticking abilities got sooo much better. Thanks to Magus for that
This is so awesome since Sheik's recovery lag blows to no end =D.
<333 Magus.
My double sticking abilities got sooo much better. Thanks to Magus for that
This is so awesome since Sheik's recovery lag blows to no end =D.
<333 Magus.