Water Shuriken Projectile Priority

[Spirst]

This thread seeks to analyze the properties of the water shuriken in relation to other projectiles in the game. The water shuriken is one of Greninja's best moves and is used for approaches as well as pressure. Water shurikens are interesting in that they act as a solid projectile and thus cannot be absorbed by Ness' PSI Magnet or Game & Watch's Oil Panic bucket. Additionally, a fully charged shuriken is a multi-hit and can be used to begin follow-ups into grabs, an usmash, or aerials. A fully charged shuriken is not interrupted by other projectiles in the game because of it having both transcendent priority as well as high normal priority. Here's a list of the projectile interactions.

Spoiler

FWS=Fully-charged water shuriken (does 12.5% if all hits connect)
UWS=Uncharged water shuriken (does 3%)

A shuriken charged but not fully charged will deal a percent that falls in between these values but seems to have the same priority properties as an uncharged shuriken. However, for projectiles that are destroyed upon reaching a certain percent, a medium charged shuriken will be more useful than an uncharged one.



Fire Breath/Flamethrower

FWS: Goes through fire and hits.

UWS: Gets canceled.


Cannonball

FWS: Both will go through each other and continue.

UWS: Will get canceled and canonball will continue.

Mechakoopa

Note: The Mechakoopa has 7% health and so cannot be destroyed by a completely uncharged shuriken alone. A medium charged shuriken that does at least 7% will be able to destroy it in one hit.

FWS: Shuriken and koopa go through each other and continue.

UWS: Shuriken is canceled and koopa goes through.



Peanut Popgun

FWS: Cancels peanut and goes through.

UWS: Cancels peanut and goes through.

Banana
Note: Only applicable if banana is thrown. If grounded, shurikens will have no effect.

FWS: Cancels banana (disappears) and goes through.

UCS: Both the shuriken and the banana get canceled. Banana disappears.



Megavitamins

FWS: Cancels pill and goes through.

UCS: Both get canceled.



Trick Shot

FWS: Goes through can and changes direction can bounces to.

UCS: Gets canceled by can but changes direction can bounces to.

Clay Shooting

FWS: Goes through and breaks clay pigeon.

UCS: Gets canceled.

Wild Gunman



FWS: Goes through gunman

UWS: Gets canceled.



Chef

FWS: Cancels and goes through

UWS: Gets canceled



Water Shuriken

FWS: Goes through fully charged shuriken. Cancels out and goes through uncharged shuriken.

UWS: Gets canceled by fully charged shuriken. Cancels out uncharged shuriken.



Gordo Throw

In order for a gordo to be reflected, a minimum of 3% must be dealt to the gordo. An uncharged shuriken is best for reflecting as a fully charged shuriken does less base damage.



Note: In neutral position for Toon Link and crouching position for Link, the shield will block all shurikens with the exception of a fully charged one which will have the first two hits blocked but then continue on through.

Hero's Bow

For Link, his fully charged arrow goes over the direction of the shuriken. If it connects...

FWS: Cancels arrow. Goes through.

UWS: Both are canceled.

Boomerang

FWS: Cancels boomerang and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.

Bomb

FWS: Cancels bomb and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Aura Sphere

FWS: Cancels aura sphere and goes through only if uncharged. Fully charged go through each other.

UWS: Both get canceled (only works until 7% for fully charged aura spheres. Medium charging against aura sphere cancels both at higher percents)



Fireball

FWS: Cancels fireball and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Metal Blade

FWS: Cancels blade and goes through.

UWS: Both get cancelled.

Crash Bomber

FWS: Cancels bomb and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.

Leaf Shield

FWS: Goes through each other.

UWS: Gets canceled.

Mega Buster

FWS: Cancels all and goes through

UWS: Both get canceled.

Charge Shot

FWS: Goes through each other.

UWS: Goes through each other.



PK Thunder

FWS: Cancels thunder and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.

PK Fire

FWS: Triggers fire on contact and goes through.

UWS: Triggers fire on contact and gets canceled.



Bonus Fruit

FWS: Stops everything in place and goes through except for the key. Key and shuriken go through each other.

UWS: Stops everything in place and gets canceled by everything. Key goes through.



Turnips (includes Mr Saturn and Bob-omb)

FWS: Cancels turnips and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Thunder Jolt

FWS: Cancels thunder jolt and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Arrows

In neutral, too high an angle.

Goes through each other regardless of charge.



Laser too high an angle.

Gyro

Only applies when thrown:

FWS: Cancels gyro and goes through. (If the gyro is grounded, the shuriken goes through and pushes the gyro off)

UWS: Both get canceled. (If the gyro is grounded, only the shuriken is canceled)




Thunder too high an angle.

Arcfire

FWS: Triggers fire on contact and goes through.

UWS: Triggers fire on contact and gets canceled.



Anything but a fully charged shuriken will hit Luma but not Rosalina. Luma possesses about 48%-50% HP.

Luma Shot

FWS: If Luma shot is fully charged, Luma and shuriken go through each other. If Luma isn't fully charged, shuriken goes through and Luma gets hit back.

UWS: Gets canceled if the Luma shot is charged. If not fully charged, the shuriken will interrupt Luma.

Star Bits

FWS: Goes through.

UWS: Goes through.




Needle

Shurikens and needles go through each other regardless of charge.

Burst Grenade

Shurikens go through regardless of charge.



Charge Shot

FWS: Cancels and goes through unless fully charged. Fully charged shot and shuriken go through each other.

UWS: Goes through even if fully charged.

Missiles

Straight missile goes at too high an angle to be hit.

Homing missiles:

FWS: Cancels missile and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Lloid Rocket

Villager Riding:

FWS: Hits Villager off but Lloid still goes through.

UWS: Gets canceled.

Villager Not Riding:

FWS: Cancels Lloid and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Wario Bike

FWS: Knocks Wario off the bike if not doing a wheelie. If he is doing a wheelie, he goes right through and hits you.

UWS: Gets canceled.



Sun Salutation

FWS: Both go through each other.

UWS: Gets canceled.

Header

FWS: Deflects ball and goes through.

UWS: Deflects ball and gets canceled.



Egg Throw

FWS: Cancels egg and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Paralyzer

FWS: Cancels shot and goes through.

UWS: Both get canceled.



Shot Put

FWS: Both go through each other

UWS: Gets cancelled and ball continues.



Charge Blast (B1)

FWS: Unless fully charged, will cancel blasts and continue forward.

UWS: Gets cancelled by fully charged blast but both uncharged shots get cancelled.

Grenade Launch (B3)

FWS: Explodes grenade and continues forward.

UWS: Explodes grenade and gets cancelled.

Flame Pillar (<>B1)

FWS: Goes through but doesn't cancel fire.

UWS: Gets cancelled by fire.

Gunner Missile (<>B3)

FWS: Explodes missile and continues through.

UWS: Explodes missile and gets cancelled.

Bomb Drop (vB2)

FWS: Explodes bomb and continues.

UWS: Explodes bomb and gets cancelled.



Gale Strike (B1)

FWS: Both go through each other

UWS: Gets cancelled and tornado goes through

Shuriken of Light (B2)

FWS: Cancels light shuriken and goes through

UWS: Both shurikens are cancelled.

Chakram (<>B)

FWS: Cancels chakram and goes through.

UWS: Both get cancelled.

Overall, the pattern is that a fully charged shuriken cancels and goes through majority of the other projectiles and those it doesn't cancel, it goes through regardless. An uncharged shuriken usually cancels the other projectile out and gets canceled itself.

I'll try to update this as necessary to include any possible revisions, customs, and the Mii Fighters. I'll also try to add in better formatting to make it easier to see at a glance possibly through the use of color organization. If anything is wrong here, let me know, and I'll get around to fixing it.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Awesome work, Spirst!

 

[Spirst]

Awesome work, Spirst!

Thanks. I'd been meaning to get around to this for two weeks now but have kept pushing it off out of laziness and other engagements. Wasn't expecting the pattern to be so clearly defined and I imagine the Mii Fighters and customs will work the same way. I do wonder how Greninja's custom 3 will interact with other projectiles as that's the best alternative to the default. Next, I'll try updating my other thread.

 

[Sosuke]

great thread, yo

you should also mention how shurikens shut down luma shot imo

 

[Spirst]

great thread, yo

you should also mention how shurikens shut down luma shot imo

Knew I forgot something. Adding it now, thanks.

 

[ExplodingLights]

This seems like it must have taken you quite some time, eh? Nicely done.

 

[MartinAW4]

Great thread. Here are some things I`ve noticed that you could change or explain in more detail:
- Bowser Jr.`s Cannonball cancels all non-fully charged WS. Only with FWS both go through each other.

- Bowser Jr.`s Mechakoopa is like an item with around 7-9 health so it gets destroyed either by 3 UWS, the last hit of a FWS or a medium charged WS that deals at least 7-9 damage.

- Diddy Kong`s Banana only gets cancelled while being thrown. Once on the ground it is unaffected by WS.

- DHD`s clay pigeon and gunman both get destroyed by 2 UWS, 1 medium charged WS or the last hit of FWS. The clay pigeon can also be sent into the opposite direction with an UWS just like the can, but it seems a bit random because one time they get sent back by a single UWS, another time the can requires 2 (the pigeon just breaks after 2 UWS), so it probably works like with the Gordos.

- Link`s shield works just like Toon Link`s in cancelling WS, but because it is so high, he needs to crouch in order to cancel the WS. I`d also specify that the FWS isn`t actually cancelled, it just doesn`t deal any damage while hitting the shield, but once it passes through the shield into the body, it starts dealing damage.

- I`d also test at which % Lucario`s Aura Sphere stops getting cancelled by WS.

- ROB`s Gyro only gets cancelled while being thrown. While on the ground it blocks UWS and barely gets moved by them but the FWS moves the Gyro a good distance away.

- I`d mention that Luma gets interrupted during the Luma Shot even if hit by an UWS.

- Sheik`s Burst Grenade actually is affected by WS, the two just very rarely collide. If hit by the weak hit of a FWS, it behaves normally as if nothing happened, but if hit by an UWS or stronger charge, the grenade explodes immediately after Sheik pulls the trigger without the sucking in part happening.

 

[Spirst]

Great thread. Here are some things I`ve noticed that you could change or explain in more detail:
- Bowser Jr.`s Cannonball cancels all non-fully charged WS. Only with FWS both go through each other.

- Bowser Jr.`s Mechakoopa is like an item with around 7-9 health so it gets destroyed either by 3 UWS, the last hit of a FWS or a medium charged WS that deals at least 7-9 damage.

- Diddy Kong`s Banana only gets cancelled while being thrown. Once on the ground it is unaffected by WS.

- DHD`s clay pigeon and gunman both get destroyed by 2 UWS, 1 medium charged WS or the last hit of FWS. The clay pigeon can also be sent into the opposite direction with an UWS just like the can, but it seems a bit random because one time they get sent back by a single UWS, another time the can requires 2 (the pigeon just breaks after 2 UWS), so it probably works like with the Gordos.

- Link`s shield works just like Toon Link`s in cancelling WS, but because it is so high, he needs to crouch in order to cancel the WS. I`d also specify that the FWS isn`t actually cancelled, it just doesn`t deal any damage while hitting the shield, but once it passes through the shield into the body, it starts dealing damage.

- I`d also test at which % Lucario`s Aura Sphere stops getting cancelled by WS.

- ROB`s Gyro only gets cancelled while being thrown. While on the ground it blocks UWS and barely gets moved by them but the FWS moves the Gyro a good distance away.

- I`d mention that Luma gets interrupted during the Luma Shot even if hit by an UWS.

- Sheik`s Burst Grenade actually is affected by WS, the two just very rarely collide. If hit by the weak hit of a FWS, it behaves normally as if nothing happened, but if hit by an UWS or stronger charge, the grenade explodes immediately after Sheik pulls the trigger without the sucking in part happening.

Very useful information, thank you. I figured that that the Mechakoopa had a set amount of health as I'd been able to destroy it with a medium charged WS as it was coming out. I believe it's actually 7% as I was able to destroy it with Marth's sourspotted dtilt which does 7% but not G&W's dtilt which does 6%. Anything earlier and it kept going. As for the clay pigeon, I've had some weird results with it. The properties don't seem to very consistent as there's been times where it's been deflected and other times where it's been destroyed or nullified. Of note though is that the former seemed to occur towards the end of it's trajectory. Same with the gordos. I'll see what more I can find on that. I'll have this updated by tonight.

 

[Jmacz]

D3's Gordo's only bounce back if you hit them at, or very near the peak of their bounce. Doesn't seem to matter where you hit them as long as it's near the peak. I'm about 95% sure of this as my friend who I play more than anyone else mains D3 and I've tested a lot of things against him in training including this. If you send a shuriken at the same time he hits a gordo it will send it back everytime and it's always at the peak of it's bounce when this happens. I've also had them right in front of D3 and right in front of me and have been able to bounce them back.

I'm unsure of when they bounce really high though, those seem to bounce back at other points to.

 

[Spirst]

D3's Gordo's only bounce back if you hit them at, or very near the peak of their bounce. Doesn't seem to matter where you hit them as long as it's near the peak. I'm about 95% sure of this as my friend who I play more than anyone else mains D3 and I've tested a lot of things against him in training including this. If you send a shuriken at the same time he hits a gordo it will send it back everytime and it's always at the peak of it's bounce when this happens. I've also had them right in front of D3 and right in front of me and have been able to bounce them back.

I'm unsure of when they bounce really high though, those seem to bounce back at other points to.

I'm not sure. I've tested it on a gordo that had traveled most of FD and was basically grounded and an uncharged shuriken still sent it back.

 

[Jmacz]

I'm not sure. I've tested it on a gordo that had traveled most of FD and was basically grounded and an uncharged shuriken still sent it back.

Maybe it's at the bottom of the bounce to? I've hit the tip of a spike at the peak of the bounce several times and it get's sent back so it's not just when you hit dead center.

 

[Sosuke]

they're weird, i'm sure there are several factors which decide if it's sent back or not

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, the gordo seems to be influenced by multiple factors. I doubt it's random so there has to be a certain methodology behind it.

 

[bajisci]

I don't know if its widely known and wasn't gonna spread it around but whatever; the animation of throwing a shuriken is actually grab invulnerable. You can shuriken someones shield point blank, bait their grab, then fsmash them after it whiffs. You have to be careful though because the shuriken throw animation has IASA frames at the end, these IASA frames are grab invulnerable so if you interrupt them with another move (such as readying an fsmash) they can, infact, shield grab you, you have to wait for the grab to come out before pressing anything. A funny way to prove this is have a link try and shield grab you. His tether will go right through your body, very amusing. Custom shuriken 3 also is grab invulnerable in the same way. Another way to prove it is to throw shuriken and have someone else try and grab your back, they can mash grab and itll whiff multiple times.

 

[Spirst]

I don't know if its widely known and wasn't gonna spread it around but whatever; the animation of throwing a shuriken is actually grab invulnerable. You can shuriken someones shield point blank, bait their grab, then fsmash them after it whiffs. You have to be careful though because the shuriken throw animation has IASA frames at the end, these IASA frames are grab invulnerable so if you interrupt them with another move (such as readying an fsmash) they can, infact, shield grab you, you have to wait for the grab to come out before pressing anything. A funny way to prove this is have a link try and shield grab you. His tether will go right through your body, very amusing. Custom shuriken 3 also is grab invulnerable in the same way. Another way to prove it is to throw shuriken and have someone else try and grab your back, they can mash grab and itll whiff multiple times.

That's interesting. I'll play with this more tonight. Something else to know though not as useful is that a charged shuriken done right in front of someone (to the point where there's no elbow room) will pass right through and unaffect them. It has a certain range at which the hitbox is active.

 

[bajisci]

That's interesting. I'll play with this more tonight. Something else to know though not as useful is that a charged shuriken done right in front of someone (to the point where there's no elbow room) will pass right through and unaffect them. It has a certain range at which the hitbox is active.

Yea thats unforutnate when it happens, same with his shifting shuriken, itll miss point blank.

 

[Spirst]

Alright, I've updated some points. Also, I had asked in a D3 thread what factors determined the reflection of the gordo and the answer I'd received was:

It's based on damage done by the attack.
Anything that hits harder than a certain threshold (3% I believe) will knock the gordo back.

Charged shuriken become multi hit, but each hit deals less base damage than an uncharged shuriken, so the hits will not knock it back.

From what I've tested so far, this seems to hold true. Hopefully this can be put to rest now.

 

[Nu~]

You should probably check if the WS can get through a bouncing hydrant. We like to use that often lol

 

[KERO]

From my own experience, fully charged Water Shuriken has both transcendent priority and regular priority while being one of the few projectiles completely unaffected by hitting something or not. Basically, as seen in the OP, literally nothing stops a fully charged shuriken. There are some things that go through it like Sheik's needles and other fully charged Shurikens (the former of which probably has this same special property), but a lot of projectiles get cancelled by it outright. This is a big reason why Water Shuriken is such a good projectile.

What I'm also interested in, however, are the properties of fully charged Shifting Shuriken. I still think regular shuri is overall the better move, but when using it, I found that Shifting Shuriken does not cancel out some projectiles that regular fully charged shuriken does (example: Mega Man's Metal Blade). Unfortunately, I don't really have anyone to test this out with.

 

[Sosuke]

It would definitely be worth checking out, as imo it's the most relevant custom moves Greninja has. I'll try to test things later today.

so i checked a bunch of things (not every move in the game, skipped things that are weak like lasers) and it seems that metal blade is just a rare exception, other than that it i couldn't find any discrepancies with the moves i checked

 

[MartinAW4]

I noticed that charged Shifting Shuriken doesn`t interact with energy based projectiles like Mario/Luigi fireballs, Lucario`s Aura Sphere, Samus` Charge Shot and even Megaman`s Metal Blade and Crash Bomber. They just pass through each other as if nothing happened while charged WS would cancel all of them except fully charged high % Aura Sphere and fully charged Samus` Charge Shot.
SS only cancels or damages physical projectiles like Diddy`s peanuts, Sheik`s grenade, DHD`s clay pigeon and can (the can actually gets sucked towards you)...

However uncharged SS doesn`t have transcendent priority and does interact even with energy based projectiles just like an uncharged WS would.

 

[Spirst]

So with the exception of energy-based projectiles, does the shifting shuriken essentially act as a non fully charged water shuriken?

Need to get around to updating this when I have sufficient time.

 

[KERO]

Shifting Shuriken can be fully charged or uncharged. Uncharged acts like regular uncharged Shuriken, but while fully charged keeps the transcendent priority, it loses the second priority that regular full charged Shuriken has that outright cancels out lesser priority projectiles (however, projectiles that can be affected by hitboxes like Diddy's Peanuts are still hit by its hitbox).

 

[Spirst]

Updated this with some missing information and added the Miis. Will look into doing customs soon.

 

[joaoTforce]

oh my god thank you for this thread! yesterday on FG I fought a megaman and he completely wrecked me. Then I came here and realized my shuriken cancels almost all of his projectiles. Then today, I found the same exact megaman and completely wrecked him.

 

[Jay-kun]

oh my god thank you for this thread! yesterday on FG I fought a megaman and he completely wrecked me. Then I came here and realized my shuriken cancels almost all of his projectiles. Then today, I found the same exact megaman and completely wrecked him.

bruh. no that ain't possible :/

Updated this with some missing information and added the Miis. Will look into doing customs soon.

"will look into doing customs soon" <-posted Dec 19, 2014

What day is it now? January 10, 2015 ...yoooooooo
Also you need to update on a 200% max Lucario AS vs FWS

 

[Spirst]

bruh. no that ain't possible :/


"will look into doing customs soon" <-posted Dec 19, 2014

What day is it now? January 10, 2015 ...yoooooooo
Also you need to update on a 200% max Lucario AS vs FWS

Haha, yeah, sorry. It's difficult trying to find the right balance between everything going on in life. Still need to finish unlocking the customs too. Based on existing data, I imagine the pattern will continue. FWS will continue to go through everything and cancel out non-chargeable projectiles whereas UWS will trade or get cancelled.

I actually did look into the aura sphere thing but was getting odd results that changed at different levels of aura so I'll just do something like Lucario at 0%/80%/max aura.