In general, I think. Rising aerials are generally pretty safe for harassment, and his aerial pokes are more flexible and more powerful than his ground ones on average.
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Wario Video & Critique Thread -- Diamond City Theater
- Thread starter Iota
- Start date
Croi
Smash Lord
Finally got some videos ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCOkoq6NFY vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqq948Kg21Q vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zko4WggT_J4 vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCOkoq6NFY vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqq948Kg21Q vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zko4WggT_J4 vs Marth
Croi
Smash Lord
Was at Impulse. My performance was less than great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w72ruv5uAAk versus v115 and Blacktwins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxOzGic3SmM versus Kuraudo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIDGXd1wkGw versus Will
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlBNG0k3QQ0 versus Suzaku The greatest and most definitive example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv-Rk7p_nAo versus Firefly and Alphicans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w72ruv5uAAk versus v115
and Blacktwins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxOzGic3SmM versus Kuraudo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIDGXd1wkGw versus Will
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlBNG0k3QQ0 versus Suzaku
The greatest and most definitive example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv-Rk7p_nAo versus Firefly
and Alphicans
Croi
Smash Lord
More videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCRHp8VA3Ek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ncF4Veq70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKRjH3zXEA WF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GixLzLdVQPQ GF
I'm going to ask for some critique, particularly from Lord Chair, and since I don't want to waste anyone's precious time, we'll just focus on winners finals. I feel I was most on my game for game 1, and least on it for game 2.
Against Donkey Kong, the exact same problem happens, but because I won the first match, I guess I'm feeling a little cocky and I approach with dumb stuff like high dairs and approaching fairs. As a result I get pivot grabbed to hell and back and before I know it, I'm down a stock after I've only done 40%. And when I respawn I immediately try to chase him with dair, even when he rolls to the edge of the stage and I know the option he's most likely going to choose is to roll in and hit me with a tilt once my dair finishes missing.
In the heat of the moment, I also tend to think that any hit I land is worth it. I keep trying to hit Attila with a soft nair so I can build that into something else, but even the one time it does land, I get up-tilted and then suddenly I'm down a whole stock. All of the damage I take can be pretty easily avoided just by hanging back a little and choosing my attacks more carefully, maybe throw out a fair to space every now and again. Wario is a really campy character, and his strengths are hanging back and knowing when to attack and when to retreat. My playstyle is more "go in and **** him up" which isn't really Wario at all, and in fact I struggle a lot against that playstyle - (S!C) was one of my more trying fights at Apex because I didn't know how to match him at all.
Also, I like to sit in my shield a whole lot. Sometimes I just run up and shield, hoping Attila would align himself just right for a grab or a fair or something. It worked out pretty well at 3:18, but that was the exception to the rule. Doing even anything else would be way better, although if I'm ever in a situation where I'm shielding, I should probably be trying to run away.
Other than that, I guess, match-up wise, I don't really know the best way to approach Donkey Kong on the ground. Wario has crap range, and every one of Donkey Kong's tilts can completely shut me down if I approach incorrectly. More than once he hits me with that dtilt-downb combo and that really shouldn't be happening. If he's on the ground, I could try to come at him with a fair, but if it flubs then I'm getting tilted or pivot-grabbed. A high dair gets me utilted; running at him gets me f- or dtilted. Sometimes DACUS works but more often than not I get the short one by mistake and then I get grabbed.
As for Marth, I kind of steamrolled that match so there isn't really a situation in there that I don't know how to fix.
For that matter: it didn't happen this set, but sometimes I find myself way down low to the stage for one reason or another. Sometimes I go too deep. In that case, how should I recover, assuming I don't have the waft? Donkey Kong can just do his upb on the ledge over and over and unless I go way up high (a tall order given the situations), I can't really escape that. I think it happened once during my set against Will at Impulse.
What are some of the better setups into and out of other moves? For example, I know uair to uair is a crowd favourite at 0%, but lately I've been taking the more guaranteed approach and doing uair to utilt. So far it hasn't failed me once, and although the difference in damage done is a little disappointing, there isn't a single way I can think of that that situation is unsafe - even the second uair can still get me faired by Marth or something.
Another thing I've been trying to integrate more of is jabs. Jab 1 comes out on frame...8, I think, without looking it up? Considering Wario's jump animation takes four frames and nair comes out after another four, jab is just as good an attack to use frame-wise, although nair has the range and the "get off me" knockback. Although it's really difficult to actually use because even though it comes out as quickly as nair, it just doesn't feel that way, and on top of that, the range is abysmally short, so I'd have to be right in my opponent's hair to use it. Nonetheless, it does combo into a lot of things really well, including the waft. At 3:56 I managed to combo it into dtilt, and at 4:02 into the bite. My question here, is has any other Wario really found success, even if it's fleeting and minor, by working with jab? Is it something I should keep trying to perfect, or is it something I should only use every now and again?
Although I didn't really do that in the video featured, though. I just got steam and I never lost it - again, I chose that video as a good example of my self-analysis because I felt I was on-point for the Marth match. But it's always important to keep basics like that in mind.
As for Donkey Kong, a lot of my problems against him come from going in too hard and getting demolished for it. Granted, Donkey Kong's a big guy, and if you can get into him, he has a hard time getting you out. But he's very strong on the ground and Wario is a mostly aerial character. I said in the matchup thread that I thought the MU was +2 with the chaingrab and +1 without it, but on reflection, I think I'd change that to an even 0 without it. He's very hard to kill, even for Wario, and any hard work you can accomplish can be undone with just one grab. However, assuming you can consistently approach him from the front, he has an aggravatingly hard time dealing with Wario's fair, and from our fair we can lead into a load of other options to further ruin his day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCRHp8VA3Ek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ncF4Veq70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKRjH3zXEA
WFhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GixLzLdVQPQ
GFI'm going to ask for some critique, particularly from Lord Chair, and since I don't want to waste anyone's precious time, we'll just focus on winners finals. I feel I was most on my game for game 1, and least on it for game 2.
I think I have a tendency to get a little too agro, particularly against Marth, since I fight Raziek every other monthly so I feel comfortable in the match-up. In fact, getting way too in-their-face is exactly what cost me the set against Suzaku at Impulse. Then again, trying to space out Marth is asking for a tipper-something to the face, so it's really more getting a feel for how my opponent plays. In this case, I got into Attila a little too quickly at the start of the first match, and although I had a decent lead already (and although you could argue Attila's not the greatest Marth example anyway - and you'd be right, he doesn't main Marth), it still tacked on more percent than I should have let it.
Against Donkey Kong, the exact same problem happens, but because I won the first match, I guess I'm feeling a little cocky and I approach with dumb stuff like high dairs and approaching fairs. As a result I get pivot grabbed to hell and back and before I know it, I'm down a stock after I've only done 40%. And when I respawn I immediately try to chase him with dair, even when he rolls to the edge of the stage and I know the option he's most likely going to choose is to roll in and hit me with a tilt once my dair finishes missing.
In the heat of the moment, I also tend to think that any hit I land is worth it. I keep trying to hit Attila with a soft nair so I can build that into something else, but even the one time it does land, I get up-tilted and then suddenly I'm down a whole stock. All of the damage I take can be pretty easily avoided just by hanging back a little and choosing my attacks more carefully, maybe throw out a fair to space every now and again. Wario is a really campy character, and his strengths are hanging back and knowing when to attack and when to retreat. My playstyle is more "go in and **** him up" which isn't really Wario at all, and in fact I struggle a lot against that playstyle - (S!C) was one of my more trying fights at Apex because I didn't know how to match him at all.
Also, I like to sit in my shield a whole lot. Sometimes I just run up and shield, hoping Attila would align himself just right for a grab or a fair or something. It worked out pretty well at 3:18, but that was the exception to the rule. Doing even anything else would be way better, although if I'm ever in a situation where I'm shielding, I should probably be trying to run away.
Not related to the matches, but one of the biggest issues I've been having lately is my attacks just... don't go through sometimes. Like, for example, at 2:22, I tomahawk-jumped into Attila's dsmash. Take it from me: that was supposed to be a fair, but, just, nothing came out. In some matches I look like I just empty hop or something, but the truth is I'm trying to make inputs but they're not going through. This is all mostly a me problem, though: contrary to how most other people play, I use the c-stick for almost all of my aerials (except nair, of course). I also use X to jump and R to shield, and I think Reflex does the exact opposite, but it's the c-stick thing that's causing me to mis-input. Other than just switching to the A button cold-turkey (which I've tried, but it's five years of this habit now), I don't really know what to do about my janky control scheme. I guess I could try setting c-stick to attack?
Other than that, I guess, match-up wise, I don't really know the best way to approach Donkey Kong on the ground. Wario has crap range, and every one of Donkey Kong's tilts can completely shut me down if I approach incorrectly. More than once he hits me with that dtilt-downb combo and that really shouldn't be happening. If he's on the ground, I could try to come at him with a fair, but if it flubs then I'm getting tilted or pivot-grabbed. A high dair gets me utilted; running at him gets me f- or dtilted. Sometimes DACUS works but more often than not I get the short one by mistake and then I get grabbed.
As for Marth, I kind of steamrolled that match so there isn't really a situation in there that I don't know how to fix.
Donkey Kong has a lot of trouble getting up off the ledge, but if he wants to stay there there's really not a damn thing I can do about it. What should I do if I'm not in the lead and there's an ape humping a ledge and I want him to stop it?
For that matter: it didn't happen this set, but sometimes I find myself way down low to the stage for one reason or another. Sometimes I go too deep. In that case, how should I recover, assuming I don't have the waft? Donkey Kong can just do his upb on the ledge over and over and unless I go way up high (a tall order given the situations), I can't really escape that. I think it happened once during my set against Will at Impulse.
What are some of the better setups into and out of other moves? For example, I know uair to uair is a crowd favourite at 0%, but lately I've been taking the more guaranteed approach and doing uair to utilt. So far it hasn't failed me once, and although the difference in damage done is a little disappointing, there isn't a single way I can think of that that situation is unsafe - even the second uair can still get me faired by Marth or something.
As a consequence of playing a little Project M on the side, I've been using my utilt and dtilt a whole lot more often lately. In particular, at 1:47, I managed to land a strong dtilt out of nair, and at 6:03, my dtilt went into uair for the kill (although I doubt dtilt has that much hitstun - I'm sure Attila was just taken off-guard by getting hit by dtilt). When are some of the safer times to use dtilt into or out of another move? It has the longest reach out of any of Wario's grounded attacks - should I consider using it to approach?
Another thing I've been trying to integrate more of is jabs. Jab 1 comes out on frame...8, I think, without looking it up? Considering Wario's jump animation takes four frames and nair comes out after another four, jab is just as good an attack to use frame-wise, although nair has the range and the "get off me" knockback. Although it's really difficult to actually use because even though it comes out as quickly as nair, it just doesn't feel that way, and on top of that, the range is abysmally short, so I'd have to be right in my opponent's hair to use it. Nonetheless, it does combo into a lot of things really well, including the waft. At 3:56 I managed to combo it into dtilt, and at 4:02 into the bite. My question here, is has any other Wario really found success, even if it's fleeting and minor, by working with jab? Is it something I should keep trying to perfect, or is it something I should only use every now and again?
I dunno, even though I just finished talking about how I don't know how to approach Donkey Kong on the ground, I feel like I've played these match ups enough to understand them. Marth is pretty difficult to really "do" because if you space too wide then you're getting tippered, but if you go in too hard then you're probably going to get grabbed or naired or something. It's all about hits-and-runs, really: at lower percents, you jump in, hopefully you land a nair, maybe follow that up with something, and then jump away before he tries to swat at you with an attack of his own. At mid percents, poke him away with fairs and bairs and grabs; keep your distance but simultaneously keep the pressure on. Marth is fairly light, too, so at around 70% or so (depending on the timer) keep a real close eye out for waft opportunities. At higher percentages, back off and let him come to you: assuming you have the lead, he'll try to hit at you with something to regain it, and chances are he'd be too nervous to try and grab you. Keep it simple, and don't try for anything too fancy - if he's offstage, you're better going for the edgehog rather than the gimp, or else you could wind up like me versus Suzaku.
Although I didn't really do that in the video featured, though. I just got steam and I never lost it - again, I chose that video as a good example of my self-analysis because I felt I was on-point for the Marth match. But it's always important to keep basics like that in mind.
As for Donkey Kong, a lot of my problems against him come from going in too hard and getting demolished for it. Granted, Donkey Kong's a big guy, and if you can get into him, he has a hard time getting you out. But he's very strong on the ground and Wario is a mostly aerial character. I said in the matchup thread that I thought the MU was +2 with the chaingrab and +1 without it, but on reflection, I think I'd change that to an even 0 without it. He's very hard to kill, even for Wario, and any hard work you can accomplish can be undone with just one grab. However, assuming you can consistently approach him from the front, he has an aggravatingly hard time dealing with Wario's fair, and from our fair we can lead into a load of other options to further ruin his day.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Nice post. You are correct in pretty much everything you write so at least you've got the idea, you just aren't working it out in practice. DK and Marth are very different matchups, especially spacing wise. Marth is much more difficult and inconsistent to get in on whereas with DK it's usually pretty clear-cut what options cover what or, in retrospect, one thing beating the other thing usually makes sense.
Your take on the DK matchup is flawed. I feel like you understand you try to put the tempo up much more than is necessary. Throughout the WF match against DK I was surprised at how often you decided to go back in rather than spot the awkwardness of the situation you were in. Usually you'd be in the least optimal position to commit to something bursty and you'd try it anyway. For example, you'd get hit by an uptilt and you'd want to dair him in return. Not onlywould he have recovered but you'd end up having to choose between a non-fastfalled dair which'd leave you which open if it'd whiff or you'd have to go for a weird fastfalled dair that wouldn't have autocancelled because of the height you were at. It felt like a kneejerk reaction, those are dangerous against DK.
The whole advantage Wario has in this matchup is rarely having to commit to a situation. You can usually weave back if you feel uncomfortable and usually this is the optimal thing to do. If DK so much as tries to zone you or take stage control he's the one who's going to commit to... stuff. If you simply mix up stationary empty and short hops you're relatively safe because he can only challenge them by rushing at you and FH bairing or something silly like that. Sure he can and will make those reads if you're being predictable, but statistics are in your favor. If he lands a bair optimally he'll get a string of them (which, admittedly, sucks) but if he whiffs because he reads a FH and you simply decided to FF a short hop he's in a world of pain. You'll land at least a uair and the juggle trap can commence.
This means you're going to have to wait, however, and sometimes opt to just not do a whole lot and let him do the work for you. He has to react to this, he has to retreat his grabs and aerials if he doesn't want to get punished for throwing out moves. This is free zoning to you. If he whiffs an ftilt he cannot just continue throwing out moves, all you have to do is make an advancing notion and he'll have to react by, say, throwing out a retreating bair. You don't have to commit to anything drastic, just by weaving in and out with a FH or SH means he's going to have to resort to something like that. Without risking anything you forced him to do stuff.
Your weaving game is rather nonexistent. You tend to try and throw out move preemtively or you try to weave SH airdodges. Both of these things are inefficient because they aren't applying pressure. SH airdodging means you're not doing something for some odd 40 frame which means 40 frames of non-pressure. At this point he'll be able to react to you with something favorable. SH airdodge really only works if you decided to short hop and then realized that wasn't an optimal option because you're in his burst range.
Concluding this: the ground game against DK is largely a waiting game which you can fuel with applying passive-aggressive pressure. DK cannot safely leave the ground and staying grounded means playing a tense zoning game which isn't strictly in his favor if you play it patiently. Once he decides to stay grounded you can punish his passivity with poking fairs or shield approaches (sparingly, these are weak).
As for DK on the ledge: if he's above 100% you can and should throw out aerials and punish his stuff on reaction. If you do it smartly and stay near the ledge there is absolutely nothing he can do. Don't try to predict stuff, just react. FHFF dairs, SH fairs, SH nairs, empty shorthops, it's all good. If he's below 100% you can only get into his zone with empty FHs which you're going to have to retreat to get outside of his getup attack range. This is a bit more awkward and is more reliant on getting a feel and reacting quickly when he decides to go back. You don't have to punish something like a ledge getup really hard, if all you can do is fair his shield to push him back to the ledge you've done your job.
If DK decides to stay on the ledge there is nothing you can do. Rely on the LGL and just do the same thing you'd do if he were planning to get back. Don't lose focus because your job is to react.
Jab is good. It's not necessarily faster because usually you should be dashing, jumping or shielding. If you're not doing any of these things jab should be taken into consideration.
If you uair someone, especially someone heavy like DK, react to their SDI and choose your followups accordingly. If they SDI down you won't always get another uair, go for a nair or a grab. If they SDI up real good you're going to have to uair. If they SDI up a bit you can nair or fsmash. Choosing between nair and fsmash depends on how much they SDIed away. If they SDI away a bunch you can opt to fsmash because they may also SDI the nair real hard. It depends on what your opponent is capable of. Against DK you can also just combo the uair in a grab and chaingrab, or you nair > grab. Whatever, just react and do whatever you like because that's how Wario works. If you uair a character who can get chaingrabbed from 20% on, depending on SDI you can uair > jab > grab and they'll be in chaingrab range whereas just uair > grab wouldn't do that for you.
Your take on the DK matchup is flawed. I feel like you understand you try to put the tempo up much more than is necessary. Throughout the WF match against DK I was surprised at how often you decided to go back in rather than spot the awkwardness of the situation you were in. Usually you'd be in the least optimal position to commit to something bursty and you'd try it anyway. For example, you'd get hit by an uptilt and you'd want to dair him in return. Not onlywould he have recovered but you'd end up having to choose between a non-fastfalled dair which'd leave you which open if it'd whiff or you'd have to go for a weird fastfalled dair that wouldn't have autocancelled because of the height you were at. It felt like a kneejerk reaction, those are dangerous against DK.
The whole advantage Wario has in this matchup is rarely having to commit to a situation. You can usually weave back if you feel uncomfortable and usually this is the optimal thing to do. If DK so much as tries to zone you or take stage control he's the one who's going to commit to... stuff. If you simply mix up stationary empty and short hops you're relatively safe because he can only challenge them by rushing at you and FH bairing or something silly like that. Sure he can and will make those reads if you're being predictable, but statistics are in your favor. If he lands a bair optimally he'll get a string of them (which, admittedly, sucks) but if he whiffs because he reads a FH and you simply decided to FF a short hop he's in a world of pain. You'll land at least a uair and the juggle trap can commence.
This means you're going to have to wait, however, and sometimes opt to just not do a whole lot and let him do the work for you. He has to react to this, he has to retreat his grabs and aerials if he doesn't want to get punished for throwing out moves. This is free zoning to you. If he whiffs an ftilt he cannot just continue throwing out moves, all you have to do is make an advancing notion and he'll have to react by, say, throwing out a retreating bair. You don't have to commit to anything drastic, just by weaving in and out with a FH or SH means he's going to have to resort to something like that. Without risking anything you forced him to do stuff.
Your weaving game is rather nonexistent. You tend to try and throw out move preemtively or you try to weave SH airdodges. Both of these things are inefficient because they aren't applying pressure. SH airdodging means you're not doing something for some odd 40 frame which means 40 frames of non-pressure. At this point he'll be able to react to you with something favorable. SH airdodge really only works if you decided to short hop and then realized that wasn't an optimal option because you're in his burst range.
Concluding this: the ground game against DK is largely a waiting game which you can fuel with applying passive-aggressive pressure. DK cannot safely leave the ground and staying grounded means playing a tense zoning game which isn't strictly in his favor if you play it patiently. Once he decides to stay grounded you can punish his passivity with poking fairs or shield approaches (sparingly, these are weak).
As for DK on the ledge: if he's above 100% you can and should throw out aerials and punish his stuff on reaction. If you do it smartly and stay near the ledge there is absolutely nothing he can do. Don't try to predict stuff, just react. FHFF dairs, SH fairs, SH nairs, empty shorthops, it's all good. If he's below 100% you can only get into his zone with empty FHs which you're going to have to retreat to get outside of his getup attack range. This is a bit more awkward and is more reliant on getting a feel and reacting quickly when he decides to go back. You don't have to punish something like a ledge getup really hard, if all you can do is fair his shield to push him back to the ledge you've done your job.
If DK decides to stay on the ledge there is nothing you can do. Rely on the LGL and just do the same thing you'd do if he were planning to get back. Don't lose focus because your job is to react.
Jab is good. It's not necessarily faster because usually you should be dashing, jumping or shielding. If you're not doing any of these things jab should be taken into consideration.
If you uair someone, especially someone heavy like DK, react to their SDI and choose your followups accordingly. If they SDI down you won't always get another uair, go for a nair or a grab. If they SDI up real good you're going to have to uair. If they SDI up a bit you can nair or fsmash. Choosing between nair and fsmash depends on how much they SDIed away. If they SDI away a bunch you can opt to fsmash because they may also SDI the nair real hard. It depends on what your opponent is capable of. Against DK you can also just combo the uair in a grab and chaingrab, or you nair > grab. Whatever, just react and do whatever you like because that's how Wario works. If you uair a character who can get chaingrabbed from 20% on, depending on SDI you can uair > jab > grab and they'll be in chaingrab range whereas just uair > grab wouldn't do that for you.
Hello my name is Austin, I am a ****ty Wario main from the West Coast.
I have some matches (some of my decent ones)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n7CjqsAlsU vs K9 (Falco/MK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqspFLaIG00 vs SmileyFace (Mr. Game & Watch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmJXc7Tsefw vs Zan (ToonLink)
I think I need to mainly work on spacing and mixups.
I need others opinions on what I need to work on..
I have some matches (some of my decent ones)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n7CjqsAlsU vs K9 (Falco/MK)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqspFLaIG00 vs SmileyFace (Mr. Game & Watch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmJXc7Tsefw vs Zan (ToonLink)
I think I need to mainly work on spacing and mixups.
I need others opinions on what I need to work on..
Lord Chair
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x6Lh5-_MXk&feature=youtu.be
There were a couple of mechanical downers here, missing at least one crucial fart and just being too slow to buffer things in general (I have some godlike ftilt here and there that looks very silly when powershielded). Satisfied with the bigger picture nonetheless
There were a couple of mechanical downers here, missing at least one crucial fart and just being too slow to buffer things in general (I have some godlike ftilt here and there that looks very silly when powershielded). Satisfied with the bigger picture nonetheless
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
I got some questions for you Mister Doctor Lord Chair.
First of all, you're very good.
I noticed you did not wait for the Smashville platform when you got grabbed by Marth until the last match. Was this an intentional decision or just a reflex?
At like 6:38, you Perfect Shielded a fair and you were behind him, you went for the OoS nair but he sideb'd it. I didn't even begin to think he was safe there, but it worked out for him. Is this an example of not buffering, or is Marth that stupid? What examples should Wario need to buffer? Like, anything Out of Shield or any other important times to do so? I ask because I pretty much never buffer anything on purpose with Wario. I do with other characters, like Luigi and Diddy, but I don't ever see the immediate need to buffer stuff with Wario. --- So I guess what I'm asking is should I immediately start implementing buffering into my play, and if so, what are some perhaps practical things that I should have already been buffering out of/in to?
Just wanted to point out that 13:25 was hilarious, haha! He just runs into your fsmash. He did that a lot with bite and ftilt, too.
13:41 was like the perfect Wario dsmash, right into a PS grab. Again, was this intentional or was it a missed input or something else?
First of all, you're very good.
I noticed you did not wait for the Smashville platform when you got grabbed by Marth until the last match. Was this an intentional decision or just a reflex?
At like 6:38, you Perfect Shielded a fair and you were behind him, you went for the OoS nair but he sideb'd it. I didn't even begin to think he was safe there, but it worked out for him. Is this an example of not buffering, or is Marth that stupid? What examples should Wario need to buffer? Like, anything Out of Shield or any other important times to do so? I ask because I pretty much never buffer anything on purpose with Wario. I do with other characters, like Luigi and Diddy, but I don't ever see the immediate need to buffer stuff with Wario. --- So I guess what I'm asking is should I immediately start implementing buffering into my play, and if so, what are some perhaps practical things that I should have already been buffering out of/in to?
Just wanted to point out that 13:25 was hilarious, haha! He just runs into your fsmash. He did that a lot with bite and ftilt, too.
13:41 was like the perfect Wario dsmash, right into a PS grab. Again, was this intentional or was it a missed input or something else?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Whenever I don't wait for the Smashville platform I probably didn't expect it to be worthwhile because it'd be too far away and I'd break out regardless. Could've made some bad judgment there though. My buffering errors were mostly related to missing buffers on my dashes (which got me grabbed twice by IC I think) and not properly buffering grabs against Marth (grab is your main close quarters tool against him). The fair powershield situation was misjudged by me, I didn't expect him to land that far behind me. What might have happened is that I messed up my buffering because of the powershield (powershielding tends to mess up buffer windows, which is why you'll often see people have difficulty punishing things out of powershield) but likely he just spaced the fair away far enough for the initial hitbox of my nair to miss so he'd just hit me out of the air. My aerials tend to be properly buffered. However, frame-wise a perfect Marth fair on shield > Dancing Blade actually does beat out nair OoS, perfect fairs are rare though. In that specific situation I was pretty much screwed regardless, especially because I was expecting him to land closer to me so he would've been able to cover rolls as well. Derp.
You need to be able to buffer pretty much everything if Great Success is what you aspire. Buffering grabs and aerials out of shield are important, buffering farts is VERY important (if only to do some cheeky desperate airdodge>farts). Also noteworthy are buffering dashes, uairs out of your jump, turnarounds and understanding how often you have a window to buffer in the first place (important contenders: jumps, landings, shielddrops).
The charged fsmash was more of a desperation thing, don't try that at home. As for the ftilts and Bites, those were usually calculated. He likes to abuse his mobility when below or when approaching Wario and he isn't afraid to dash. I try to time ftilts to force him to slow down and to reconsider jumping/dashing in my immediate vicinity. This would have helped me to alleviate pressure but I feel like I kinda overstepped. The Bites were necessary because he was very grab orientated at almost all percentages and I needed him to take less control in that area also.
The dsmash was an error. It was an interesting situations really, looking back at it I think I played very well there. I started his fresh stock off with a dair but didn't know how to convert a decent combo so I tried going for a fair poke, this doesn't work until a higher percentage (at which it works reallllllly well if you have the space). He fairs me in return, that was fine. He then fairs my shield, I expect him to go for a reactionary followup and get a very good strong autocanceled fair crossup on him. This puts him in a bad spot. He misreads my spacing (expects me to land in front of him) and tries to grab. Regardless of the situation I probably would have gone for a second nair because it would have covered a spotdodge (that's just my playstyle, safer than necessary). He goes for the grab though, at which point nair is by far the best option to go for because at that percentage it will combo into something good (a grab or an fsmash) and will net the most damage, unless he SDIs. There's the thing though, SDI messes up Wario in these situations but with nair you can react to it. He buffers an upb, expecting a followup on nair1 but I retreated the nair expecting bull**** to happen.
By chasing him for a millisecond I prompted him to buffer a supposed counter (like upb) because if he were to counter he would've had to buffer it. I miss the uair punish (derp), dair instead (wanted to go for just the last 2 or so hits, failed, derp), he turns around and doesn't react accordingly (derp) I get derped by his landing and jab the wrong way (derp), I panic and nair (nair is my panic button), he spotdodges, gets hit by nair2, expects a grab. I didn't quite expect him to hard read a grab but I wasn't willing to commit to grabbing in that situation because he tends to make volatile decisions when the frame data isn't clearly in anyone's favor so I tried to opt for a dair, hoping to beat out him going for either a grab or a spotdodge (note: this was dumb, SH dair is bad against Marth and I would've been better of using yet another nair).
I made an input error and dsmashed. I knew he'd dash back to me and either go for a grab punish (which I thought would be too slow and therefore be beat by a buffered grab) or wait for my spotdodge (in which case I'd also just grab him). He went for a straight up dash though, which seemed very stressed made me reconsider buffering a grab and went for buffering my shield instead (which was the other strong RPS decision for me: I still could've grabbed his wait on reaction and it'd beat a non-dashgrab offensive option, in hindsight I probably would have gone for a grab straight after shielding anyway and it still would've covered a dashgrab 'punish' if done accordingly). Note that a grab wouldn't have lead to a killing fsmash because I was only at 70% and the platform was moving our way, I feel like he would've gone for the grab anyway if I were at a higher percentage. Obviously I was also just really lucky in getting the powershield l0l.
You need to be able to buffer pretty much everything if Great Success is what you aspire. Buffering grabs and aerials out of shield are important, buffering farts is VERY important (if only to do some cheeky desperate airdodge>farts). Also noteworthy are buffering dashes, uairs out of your jump, turnarounds and understanding how often you have a window to buffer in the first place (important contenders: jumps, landings, shielddrops).
The charged fsmash was more of a desperation thing, don't try that at home. As for the ftilts and Bites, those were usually calculated. He likes to abuse his mobility when below or when approaching Wario and he isn't afraid to dash. I try to time ftilts to force him to slow down and to reconsider jumping/dashing in my immediate vicinity. This would have helped me to alleviate pressure but I feel like I kinda overstepped. The Bites were necessary because he was very grab orientated at almost all percentages and I needed him to take less control in that area also.
The dsmash was an error. It was an interesting situations really, looking back at it I think I played very well there. I started his fresh stock off with a dair but didn't know how to convert a decent combo so I tried going for a fair poke, this doesn't work until a higher percentage (at which it works reallllllly well if you have the space). He fairs me in return, that was fine. He then fairs my shield, I expect him to go for a reactionary followup and get a very good strong autocanceled fair crossup on him. This puts him in a bad spot. He misreads my spacing (expects me to land in front of him) and tries to grab. Regardless of the situation I probably would have gone for a second nair because it would have covered a spotdodge (that's just my playstyle, safer than necessary). He goes for the grab though, at which point nair is by far the best option to go for because at that percentage it will combo into something good (a grab or an fsmash) and will net the most damage, unless he SDIs. There's the thing though, SDI messes up Wario in these situations but with nair you can react to it. He buffers an upb, expecting a followup on nair1 but I retreated the nair expecting bull**** to happen.
By chasing him for a millisecond I prompted him to buffer a supposed counter (like upb) because if he were to counter he would've had to buffer it. I miss the uair punish (derp), dair instead (wanted to go for just the last 2 or so hits, failed, derp), he turns around and doesn't react accordingly (derp) I get derped by his landing and jab the wrong way (derp), I panic and nair (nair is my panic button), he spotdodges, gets hit by nair2, expects a grab. I didn't quite expect him to hard read a grab but I wasn't willing to commit to grabbing in that situation because he tends to make volatile decisions when the frame data isn't clearly in anyone's favor so I tried to opt for a dair, hoping to beat out him going for either a grab or a spotdodge (note: this was dumb, SH dair is bad against Marth and I would've been better of using yet another nair).
I made an input error and dsmashed. I knew he'd dash back to me and either go for a grab punish (which I thought would be too slow and therefore be beat by a buffered grab) or wait for my spotdodge (in which case I'd also just grab him). He went for a straight up dash though, which seemed very stressed made me reconsider buffering a grab and went for buffering my shield instead (which was the other strong RPS decision for me: I still could've grabbed his wait on reaction and it'd beat a non-dashgrab offensive option, in hindsight I probably would have gone for a grab straight after shielding anyway and it still would've covered a dashgrab 'punish' if done accordingly). Note that a grab wouldn't have lead to a killing fsmash because I was only at 70% and the platform was moving our way, I feel like he would've gone for the grab anyway if I were at a higher percentage. Obviously I was also just really lucky in getting the powershield l0l.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
Awesome, great insight. Thanks a bunch Chair! Very intelligent. That's a lot of thought that goes into all those little situations. Hopefully I can start understanding things like that soon.
One more, though: buffering dashes? Do you buffer dashes out of stuff to like get away faster or something? Like missed grab> buffered dash away, for example?
One more, though: buffering dashes? Do you buffer dashes out of stuff to like get away faster or something? Like missed grab> buffered dash away, for example?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
ye .
LOE1
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2011
- Messages
- 1,692
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwQeSGGbCyA
help...me...please...
my style is really focused on being in the air like all the time, but false just wouldnt let me in the air without getting punished. i think i have to improve my ground game for people like this, im just not used to it. any other advice..pleasee?
help...me...please...
my style is really focused on being in the air like all the time, but false just wouldnt let me in the air without getting punished. i think i have to improve my ground game for people like this, im just not used to it. any other advice..pleasee?
Croi
Smash Lord
"And, you know what, really, uh... kind of makes me mad about LOE1? He doesn't like to go for any grab release combos--"
Well, there's your problem.
Well, there's your problem.
Croi
Smash Lord
In general, you play way too passive and don't actually make too many attacks like you really ought to be doing - False kept hitting you because he kept trying to, but you would rather run away and camp rather than fight back. Playing campy against Wario as Wario doesn't work too well, I don't think; I have almost no Wario ditto experience, but when I fought (S!C) at Apex last January, he tried to camp me out and I still beat him. Camping to build your waft or run the clock is all well and good, but if you're losing, then camping isn't going to get you back the lead. Make hits; try for grabs; there are no rewards without risks. You only ever got one grab release, and although all of your other grabs got ****-blocked by platforms, you didn't try for too many grabs in the first place. If you haven't made the Gentleman's Agreement (and there's really no reason why you should in tournament), grab release and be prepared to get grab-released.
More specifically, do you remember that thing that Lord Chair posted a while back about double jumping? You tend to do that a lot: the spacing aerials you throw out are almost always preceded by a double jump. They're putting you too high in the air, and if you're being capitalized on it, your movement options become limited because you wasted it to gain more immediate vertical space. A single full-hop is usually all you need if you just want to establish a no-fly-zone.
More specifically, do you remember that thing that Lord Chair posted a while back about double jumping? You tend to do that a lot: the spacing aerials you throw out are almost always preceded by a double jump. They're putting you too high in the air, and if you're being capitalized on it, your movement options become limited because you wasted it to gain more immediate vertical space. A single full-hop is usually all you need if you just want to establish a no-fly-zone.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Concur with everything Croi said. Moreover, you play too reactively and by doing so are giving False way too much room to set up for advantageous situations. You really need to break this by giving him less time and space. Once you get up there False can do whatever he wants pretty much because you will always be in a defensive, reactive position. That's what puzzles me, you seem more confident in your defensive game but, no offense, it sucks. You tend to full hop a lot and you rarely if ever fastfall. Italics to stress the importance of that remark, Wario's fastfall is godlike and is in and by itself a powerful mixup and in a lot of situations a hard counter to a bunch of options. His fastfall is one of the key things that keep him safe when he's in the air, along with his double jump, his acceleration and his slowfall. These things all have to interact if you want to play Wario in the first place, but play an even greater role if you opt to have a defensive playstyle. You seem to disregard the value of double jumping and fastfalling and you completely forego any sort of short hop game.
To sum up:
- Make more use of your burst range, start using Fair to relieve pressure (and autocancel it accordingly).
- Create a short hop game, throw out that Nair (fastfall accordingly) and at least show that you are willing to confront your opponent closer to the ground.
- Implement fastfalling in your game in general. There's 10000 uses.
- Overhaul the way you use Wario's mobility in general. Put a bunch of thought in the way you want to apply Double Jumping, Fastfalling, Short hopping, Full hopping, Slowfalling and Acceleration.
In fact, I'd advise you never look back at this set again because you have to completely rework your playstyle if you want to stay competitive and have a shot at getting up there. As is, your whole approach to the game is flawed and will keep you from getting better.
To sum up:
- Make more use of your burst range, start using Fair to relieve pressure (and autocancel it accordingly).
- Create a short hop game, throw out that Nair (fastfall accordingly) and at least show that you are willing to confront your opponent closer to the ground.
- Implement fastfalling in your game in general. There's 10000 uses.
- Overhaul the way you use Wario's mobility in general. Put a bunch of thought in the way you want to apply Double Jumping, Fastfalling, Short hopping, Full hopping, Slowfalling and Acceleration.
In fact, I'd advise you never look back at this set again because you have to completely rework your playstyle if you want to stay competitive and have a shot at getting up there. As is, your whole approach to the game is flawed and will keep you from getting better.
LOE1
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2011
- Messages
- 1,692
I really just thought of it as my playstyle counters some, but also gets countered by others. you're right that I should short hop more, I just like double jumling because I don't think a lot of characters can punish it well. I came in to the game with the fact I should grab release, I just couldn't get any grabs off. I got out spaced way too much. I haven't really heard much about fast falling, except with nair, i'll try to incorporate that into my playstyle more. also, I don't think I need to COMPLETLY rework my playstyle, its what got me pr'd 2 in Michigan. im confident in how I play, I just have to keep switching it up though so I don't get read.
thanks for all the help guys, i'll be sure to ask if I need more help with anything
thanks for all the help guys, i'll be sure to ask if I need more help with anything
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Be sure to ask for help again when you realize that fastfalling is hella important. 2nd in Michigan, in the land of the blind...?
Got 2 tourney matches I would like to be critique by anyone; these matches took place at a socal tourney "Overflow"
Vs marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H92v6OGUWko
Vs ddd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WjHmdp5GHc
Sorry the sets were not all saved i won vs marth lost to ddd round 2 and 3.
Vs marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H92v6OGUWko
Vs ddd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WjHmdp5GHc
Sorry the sets were not all saved i won vs marth lost to ddd round 2 and 3.
Maybe it's just me but you tend to air dodge much into characters, for example the Marth in the video. Don't do that. Don't land near any characters at all (if you're not sure about what you are doing) and definitely don't air dodge into them. You'll just get punsihed for that, sometimes really hard. Against DDD, when he chain grabbed you and reached the edge, he will eventually try to grab release you to something. However, while he pummels (at the end of the chain grab-grab release process) it's your big chance to escape it and brake free. The King Dedede pummeled, like, four times without you doing something about it (that is, trying to mash the buttons to escape it). Oh, and I have to point it out to you that the tires are super important tools against characters who can air release Wario. (The tires generally are important.) They also give Wario some "spacy" stage control. Tires = range and stage control. "Tire in hand" makes (should make) the opponents more aware of what Wario actually can do with it. Using the bike as an item is also good since you will get those potential tires (the bike itself is an amazing item).
Strawhat64
Smash Ace
I totally forgot to put my match lol. here we go
me vs 8-bit (R.O.B)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A73VuMGeFMM
me vs 8-bit (R.O.B)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A73VuMGeFMM
A couple of weeks ago, I attended a Brawl tournament hosted by a certain Fighting Game Community in Stockholm (nothing too serious but we were a bunch of serious players there). The tournament was fun and appreciated. However, the TV we played on was not a TV you would want to play on again. I'm not saying the TV was garbage, but it's the kind of TV that could mess up some inputs/movements. Therefore, some errors was made (not only by me (my opponents also felt the same way)) because of that TV. Of course not every single error was made because of the frame drops, but probably a bunch of them.
I am not asking for anything special (cause I know where I need to improve) but I'm putting these up just "for the show". Overall I am happy with my performance (despite some frame drop issues).
Vs. Captain Falcon (GFs): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLxHjToVYUc
Vs. Fox (Semi Finals): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQKJx1Aneu4
I am not asking for anything special (cause I know where I need to improve) but I'm putting these up just "for the show". Overall I am happy with my performance (despite some frame drop issues).
Vs. Captain Falcon (GFs): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLxHjToVYUc
Vs. Fox (Semi Finals): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQKJx1Aneu4
Croi
Smash Lord
I like your tire game, xzx.
Thanks! Yeah, tires do very much for Wario. Same with the Bike as a projectile in the right circumstances. The Bike is a good refresher too, with tires as a reward.
I played a total of four sets in that tournament. The other two sets got uploaded too:
Vs. Captain Falcon (my first set): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4aYnSu0_aA
Vs. Ice Climbers (my second set): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKI-sYGPfmY
I played a total of four sets in that tournament. The other two sets got uploaded too:
Vs. Captain Falcon (my first set): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4aYnSu0_aA
Vs. Ice Climbers (my second set): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKI-sYGPfmY
Sup guys i got 3rd recently on a tourney, m2k and zero attended at this tourney so it was kinda hard but still, i got this video against m2k i lost 3-0, i would appreciate if you guys can help me get better at this MU. Thanks a bunch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9yChJRmmc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9yChJRmmc4
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
You are very good Waymas! You did well, but here are the things I saw.
Your focus on getting tires was your downfall. You lost entire stocks or took 80% damage by trying to break the bike instead of fighting M2K. Then, when you DID get the tires, you usually threw them offstage or right at him so he could shield or spot dodge. You did a lot with them on the first stock of the last match, but it was only 30%. Instead of breaking the bike, you could have Nair>grabbed him. Please make the tires much less of a focus, because you could have own matches there! M2K knew it too, he just hovered near the bike and punished you every time you went for it. You could still implement them, just much much less. Only go for them when you can, don't make the purpose of the match to get tires. They are not really worth it in this MU at all. Tires should stay a good mixup to use here and there.
Second thing I saw, which would be more important if it wasn't for the tires. You tried to push for a follow up too hard whenever you landed a hit. There were times when you tried to go for another hit when you weren't able to get it, then you got punished for it. Just as a rule of thumb, if you have doubt as to whether another move would land or not, then don't do it. Just sit back after dealing 15%, and wait for the next opportunity. First match, you tried to Nair>grab him, which would have worked, but he was going offstage so you got punished. If Meta Knight isn't landing onstage, don't go for another follow up.
Your bite was good this set, punished him very well. I wish you did more stuff like that, that would have turned out great! You also punished Tornado very well, keep that up!
Another thing is that you tried to be above him too much. This MU, you'll want to stay at MK's level. Keep pressuring him with fair's, SH air dodging, punishing when he tries something too risky. Sometimes, all you'll land is fairs, which is okay because it'll put him at kill percent eventually. Keep in mind that just because you might be behind in stock and percent, doesn't REALLY mean you are losing. If you kept playing safe with pokes and getting safe follow ups for extra damage when that opportunity presented itself, then wafted him, it would stay very even. He might take one of your stocks, when he's only at 80% or so, it looks like a big lead, but land a good waft and it's even again. Stay near to the ground, bait and punish him, condition him with air dodges and fairs/nairs, and do your grab and other punishes that you did well, you would have made M2K far more nervous! Your camping and pacing was good, but the time wasn't used effectively. If you were dealing tiny bits of damage instead of aimlessly running away or trying to get tires or making huge follow ups, that set would have gone very differently.
When you wafted his Nair out of shield, oh my goodness haha!! That was perfect, I don't even know how you did that. Great job!
Hope this helps!
Your focus on getting tires was your downfall. You lost entire stocks or took 80% damage by trying to break the bike instead of fighting M2K. Then, when you DID get the tires, you usually threw them offstage or right at him so he could shield or spot dodge. You did a lot with them on the first stock of the last match, but it was only 30%. Instead of breaking the bike, you could have Nair>grabbed him. Please make the tires much less of a focus, because you could have own matches there! M2K knew it too, he just hovered near the bike and punished you every time you went for it. You could still implement them, just much much less. Only go for them when you can, don't make the purpose of the match to get tires. They are not really worth it in this MU at all. Tires should stay a good mixup to use here and there.
Second thing I saw, which would be more important if it wasn't for the tires. You tried to push for a follow up too hard whenever you landed a hit. There were times when you tried to go for another hit when you weren't able to get it, then you got punished for it. Just as a rule of thumb, if you have doubt as to whether another move would land or not, then don't do it. Just sit back after dealing 15%, and wait for the next opportunity. First match, you tried to Nair>grab him, which would have worked, but he was going offstage so you got punished. If Meta Knight isn't landing onstage, don't go for another follow up.
Your bite was good this set, punished him very well. I wish you did more stuff like that, that would have turned out great! You also punished Tornado very well, keep that up!
Another thing is that you tried to be above him too much. This MU, you'll want to stay at MK's level. Keep pressuring him with fair's, SH air dodging, punishing when he tries something too risky. Sometimes, all you'll land is fairs, which is okay because it'll put him at kill percent eventually. Keep in mind that just because you might be behind in stock and percent, doesn't REALLY mean you are losing. If you kept playing safe with pokes and getting safe follow ups for extra damage when that opportunity presented itself, then wafted him, it would stay very even. He might take one of your stocks, when he's only at 80% or so, it looks like a big lead, but land a good waft and it's even again. Stay near to the ground, bait and punish him, condition him with air dodges and fairs/nairs, and do your grab and other punishes that you did well, you would have made M2K far more nervous! Your camping and pacing was good, but the time wasn't used effectively. If you were dealing tiny bits of damage instead of aimlessly running away or trying to get tires or making huge follow ups, that set would have gone very differently.
When you wafted his Nair out of shield, oh my goodness haha!! That was perfect, I don't even know how you did that. Great job!
Hope this helps!
Not to disappoint anyone, but Wario should never expect to win against Meta Knight ever. I'm not saying the Wario players are bad, I'm just saying that the Meta Knight Matchup as Wario is utterly horrible. So don't get surprised if good Warios loses to above average Meta Knights.
Here's a pretty recent that from a tournament. I finally managed to beat Schwa (3-0 in LFs) in a set and I ended up getting to GF2 last game last hit (first match has not been uploaded for some reason).
GF2 - vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dGC8vOtEqo
Oh and this is how you edgeguard against ZSS.
http://youtu.be/6dGC8vOtEqo?t=9m33s
Isn't this what Esam was talking about?
GF2 -
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dGC8vOtEqo
Oh and this is how you edgeguard against ZSS.
http://youtu.be/6dGC8vOtEqo?t=9m33s
Isn't this what Esam was talking about?
Luigimitsu
Smash Apprentice
Agreed, I'm not top level but I struggle vs MK's that are definitely worse than myself, only being able to win sometimes and never consistently.
I posted this video on the Fox board too - from a few months back, Luigimitsu (Wario) vs CRZ (Fox). CRZ is a very experienced and knowledgeable player, excellent Fox knowledge and used to talk to TKD himself. I'm.. just a smart player lol, I did win these, but he has had times where he's dominated me with Fox, so me winning 3 - 0 doesn't necessarily mean I am better, but we are very back and forth, possibly because that's how the match up is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xQpMBOZ7BM