VS. Villager?

[Duck SMASH!]

Hey guys.
I don't think we have enough resources/information/videos to really create a unified match up thread, so for now I will be making individual threads for characters I think need examining.

First up, the Villager.

I hate him.
He pockets the mechakoopa/cannonball, has irritating projectiles in Lloid and the tree (with proper setup), Fair is a pain to deal with, his Dair is more effective than ours, he recovers from literally anywhere, has a better offstage game against Jr than we do on him, and is a general pain to hit with his greater mobility.

Fortunately, we have a few things in our favour:
We are much heavier and can take much more punishment.
We have a better grab? They're both bad but I think ours is a bit faster...
Our Fair and Bair deal more damage and have disjointed hitboxes. While Villager has an annoying Fair it is also very weak.
We have faster (though predictable) mobility in the Kart Dash.
We can provide some pressure with the Mechakoopa if Villager doesn't pocket it or pockets our cannonballs instead.
IMO, Jr is cuter than the Villager.

But enough from me. I want to see what you guys think of this matchup.

 

[Conn1496]

Never really been an issue for me. Your approach and recovery is generally just too good for their spacing and gimping in this MU for them to handle. It just becomes a long-winded chasefest where you avoid using MKs and Cannonballs and just mess them up with your air attacks and up/side specials. You have a lot of counter-tactics at your disposal usually on account of your Side-B, and you can apply quite a hefty bit of pressure on them, even without MKs. -and even if they eat up an MK, it's not the end of the world.

 

[waldorf2007]

Might as well use this thread to ask the question: can villager pocket the falling up B, AKA explosive kart? It's not exactly a projectile but seems to act as such.

And yeah, I don't have that much trouble with villager. the biggest problem I have is recovering with the risk of getting hit by the weak hit of fair or bair. If I'm recovering low you can bet villager will be doing a falling nair to try and hit me out of hit.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Might as well use this thread to ask the question: can villager pocket the falling up B, AKA explosive kart? It's not exactly a projectile but seems to act as such.

And yeah, I don't have that much trouble with villager. the biggest problem I have is recovering with the risk of getting hit by the weak hit of fair or bair. If I'm recovering low you can bet villager will be doing a falling nair to try and hit me out of hit.

No. He cannot pocket the exploding car.
Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-list-of-things-villager-can-pocket.386895/#post-18382996

 

[Jigglystep]

As a Villager main, I can submit to you that we have lots of trouble dealing with rushdown, so definitely play aggressively in this matchup, though watch out for the Dair baits if you intend to rush in with your side-B. Use your projectiles sparingly and when your opponent would have less time to react, because the last thing you want is to arm Villager with yet another projectile to pressure you with.

IMO, Jr is cuter than the Villager.

False. The Villager vs. Bowser Jr. cuteness matchup is 100:0 in Villy's favor. x3

 

[waldorf2007]

I would say that is entirely dependent on which villy and which jr. you pick. Lemmy vs. that coked up triple ponytail nasty ass villager is 100:0 lemmy

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I think villager destroys Bowser Jr. When Bowser Jr. is recovering with up-b, Villager can N-air him to his death. If you respawn a clown car (with the AT), repeat since he can't recover.

FAir and Bair have the same results, but it is more difficult to perform.

I would say 80:20 in Villager's Favor

 

[Goldenadept]

You definitely don't want to be offstage against villager, especially low. Lloid rocket, fsmash canonball drops off the ledge and his nair/fair gimp game are all incredibly potent against bowser jr's predictable recovery. Villager can chase you offstage pretty much infinitely.
Don't let him set up his neutral camp game by getting in his face as much as you can. His nair comes out in 4 frames iirc making it a potent combo breaker and frustrating (for bowser jr) OoS option but your fair/bair have way better reach and therefore zoning potential when up close, look out for those sweet spot dairs though the hitbox sticks out for an absurd amount of time and 3 turnips is gonna spell trouble

 

[NidoMay]

I'm no expert on villiger buuuuut
- if they pocket a mechakoopa, you'll be unable to pull out another one until they take it out and throw it.
- many of their better attacks (fsmash especially) are pretty interruptable. Even if the bowling ball comes out it won't do anything if the wielder is hit in time.
- Between sideB and the various options from it (nairs, fairs, dairs that can be followed by fairs, uairs, spincrashing, jumping out airdodging and bairing or fakeouts) Jr's got a good rushdown and baiting game. If anything it's one of the things I love about these koopa kids, they can space and keepaway rushdowners and rushdown campers. Sure they ain't the best at either but exploit a foe's weaknesses well enough and it doesn't matter all that much does it?
- General thing but bthrows can add on a nice 13%, combine with pummels and it can tack on as much damage as a smash move. Nice little tenderizer right there. Probably best to grab from shield mind you, when they're attacking and leaving an opening.
- Jr's recovery is predicable, yes... but so is villager's. If they're above it'll likely be a lloid rocket that'll leave em open going down or balloons that can't attack at all leaving a nice opening for fair's or nairs or dairs or even dropped mechakoopas. Remember they can't defend when using balloons and jr can easily get back on stage too.

 

[Bobert]

I think villager destroys Bowser Jr. When Bowser Jr. is recovering with up-b, Villager can N-air him to his death. If you respawn a clown car (with the AT), repeat since he can't recover.

FAir and Bair have the same results, but it is more difficult to perform.

I would say 80:20 in Villager's Favor

80:20 seems like a bit much....

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I'm used to play a lot with a Bowser Jr. , and 90% of times he goes offstage and he has to recover, he dies. It is really HARD IMO

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Literally no way this matchup is 80:20. 80:20 is like D3 vs DK in brawl.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Literally no way this matchup is 80:20. 80:20 is like D3 vs DK in brawl.

Ok, Maybe it isn't so hard, 70:30?

 

[Mtn64]

Honestly Villager has a REALLLY easy time against bowser Jr.
The only move I'm afraid of is FAir since it kills slingshot hits. That's about it.
I've never been outranged by one, I've never had trouble when one is in my face, I have most certainly never had trouble recovering..
And we can kill you guys at 40% flat, pretty much the moment your off stage against a good villy.

 

[AnchorTea]

Well Jr's Mecha Koopa and Cannon Shot is something we Villagers can't resist.

Never use them, you"ll end up regreting it. Pro Villagers have cat-like sense when it comes to projectiles.

You"ll have to read the Villagers movements and attacks, and when you get the perfect chance. Be in our face. Don't give us a single break to think.

Remember: Only when you get the perfect chance.

He is a very good character and he deserves more love.
.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Bobert]

Honestly Villager has a REALLLY easy time against bowser Jr.
The only move I'm afraid of is FAir since it kills slingshot hits. That's about it.
I've never been outranged by one, I've never had trouble when one is in my face, I have most certainly never had trouble recovering..
And we can kill you guys at 40% flat, pretty much the moment your off stage against a good villy.

Jr. may not be my main and I don't have much experience with fighting villager but can't he just recover high with the side b and jump over you or use fair after the jump to block your slingshot?

 

[dahuterschuter]

Villager has one pocket and BJ has worlds of projectiles. Even the most hardcore tree-camping Villagers can't contend with the output once you start exploding the clown car on top of them or simply bum rushing with the side special.

Of course, be prepared for sudden death if you go that route.

 

[[mastershake]~~]

The pocket is the absolute devil! Haha, nothing worse than seeing your metakoopa being taken out of the match. Am I missing something though with the recovery? With Jr's Side B giving you essentially a third jump and you can spin out attack instead of jumping to mix it up. Also, I you can air dodge while you do your up B. I am all for the villager being a difficult and admittedly creepy MU, but Junior has, IMO one of the better recoveries in the game as long as you mix up how you recover.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Villager has one pocket and BJ has worlds of projectiles.

BJr has 2 projectiles, and one of them is very bad.

 

[dahuterschuter]

BJr has 2 projectiles, and one of them is very bad.

Three.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

His up b is not a projectile.

 

[Jigglystep]

His up b is not a projectile.

Oh how I wish it was.. I'd pocket that every chance I get, heh..

 

[Mtn64]

Jr. may not be my main and I don't have much experience with fighting villager but can't he just recover high with the side b and jump over you or use fair after the jump to block your slingshot?

Can't I just NAir him out of clown car and put him in a spot where he has to bup?
Clown Car Side B doesn't cover low recovering either.

 

[Bobert]

Can't I just NAir him out of clown car and put him in a spot where he has to bup?
Clown Car Side B doesn't cover low recovering either.

I'll probably try getting some more experience with this matchup sometime in the future but it seems like Bowser Jr. just walls out Villagers aerials because of his range on Fair and it blocks Villager Fair/Bair. It doesn't seem like it should be extremely hard for Jr. to get back to the stage unless he's somehow knocked directly to the side and really far away from the stage. But of course I could be wrong because like I said, I have next to no experience with this matchup other than one or two matches with my friend a week after he got the game which was a few months ago.

 

[[mastershake]~~]

Can't I just NAir him out of clown car and put him in a spot where he has to bup?
Clown Car Side B doesn't cover low recovering either.

If Bowser Jr is hit when he is out of the car, you can air dodge and get the car back immediately giving you another chance at an Up B. If they don't sweet spot the next one though you can keep trying to gimp on each attempt. Not sure if that's what u were asking.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

If Bowser Jr is hit when he is out of the car, you can air dodge and get the car back immediately giving you another chance at an Up B. If they don't sweet spot the next one though you can keep trying to gimp on each attempt. Not sure if that's what u were asking.

This is knockback dependent. You don't "immediately get it back." You need to take a certain amount of knockback that breaks a threshold to get it back.

 

[[mastershake]~~]

Did not know that thanks!

 

[Glicnak]

With all the "villager can just nair bjr after he upBs"...

Would villagers nair beat out the out-of-car hammer? The hammer seems to have better range and a really good knockback...

 

[Mr Moosebones]

With all the "villager can just nair bjr after he upBs"...

Would villagers nair beat out the out-of-car hammer? The hammer seems to have better range and a really good knockback...

It's all positional. BJr's hammer has priority over... i wanna say most attacks fullstop if his target is behind him. The animation starts at the back and the first hitbox to come out does so near instantaneously (i want to say frame 2 but this might not be accurate). If villager is diagonally above bjr to the front he doesn't have any way of actually connecting with the hammer.

The big thing though is that if you time your hammer swing incorrectly while rising you lose the ability to grab/ snap to the ledge. Also there's a fairly large endlag window right after up b where your can't input attacks.

 

[Glicnak]

It's all positional. BJr's hammer has priority over... i wanna say most attacks fullstop if his target is behind him. The animation starts at the back and the first hitbox to come out does so near instantaneously (i want to say frame 2 but this might not be accurate). If villager is diagonally above bjr to the front he doesn't have any way of actually connecting with the hammer.

The big thing though is that if you time your hammer swing incorrectly while rising you lose the ability to grab/ snap to the ledge. Also there's a fairly large endlag window right after up b where your can't input attacks.

True but at this point it seems like its (usually, not in all situations) a question of can the bjr player plan his recovery to be able to cover himself, not that villager is just better equipped to beat him.

Although i'll admit its not easy and i dont have much experience against edgeguarding (my friends are too scared to edgeguard/gimp)

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Honestly you just need to know the matchup. Certain characters can't gimp bjr easily without risking losing a stock (eg, Fox), so that gives him an easy time recovering low. Characters with weak aerials and good spikes force him to recover high. Zelda, in particular, is a pain in the ass if you're trying to recover low. If she sweetspots her dair, you get spiked, if she whiffs and hits with the weak hit you don't take enough kb to recover your car.

 

[Glicnak]

I completely agree. @ Mr Moosebones do you stream or know any good bjr streamers?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I don't stream, but I have this one video from a tournament a few weeks ago. I was super hammered and used up b way too many times (one of those things where if you make a bad play and it works, keep doing it until it doesn't work anymore), but it shows basically everything that can happen recovery wise, from being gimped to recovering high to edgeguard reversals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhKBAqeQFKY

 

[Mr Moosebones]

It's not vs villager but Sheik's weak bair is pretty similar to villager's nair.

EDIT: Sorry for 2x post.

 

[Glicnak]

I don't stream, but I have this one video from a tournament a few weeks ago. I was super hammered and used up b way too many times (one of those things where if you make a bad play and it works, keep doing it until it doesn't work anymore), but it shows basically everything that can happen recovery wise, from being gimped to recovering high to edgeguard reversals

That was actually a really good set! Showcases a lot of bjr's toolkit and congrats!

 

[Tater]

As previously mentioned, Villager can easily gimp Jr while he's recovering (fair, bair, and nair will all hit you but not hard enough to let you respawn your clown car) making it a difficult matchup for Jr. DO NOT use your mechakoopas against villager unless they already have something in their pocket. Once villager pockets one of your projectiles, you don't get to use it until villager gets rid of it. This is very, very bad for you when it comes to mechakoopas. I personally always try to bait a pocket with a weak cannonball so I have some breathing room to use my mechakoopas (Still sparingly, though. Villager can still pick them up just like any other character). NEVER chase villager offstage. Ever. It's just not worth the risk. You have to wait them out onstage and then keep the pressure on them once you have an opening. Villager's tree will stop your side-B right in its tracks, and mechakoopas will just walk into the tree until they explode. NEVER EVER shoot a charged cannonball at villager. I made that mistake playing against Larry in tournament back before Wii U even came out and I still have flashbacks to it today.

Overall, Villager is a rough matchup for JR(But then again, who isn't these days?) but it is winnable.

I think that 80/20 and 70/30 in villager's favor is a bit too high. I'd say 65-35 is more accurate.

 

[SEXINT]

Rushdown tactics can really put the hurt on Villager players, for sure. Nair is godly at poking them through their wall of bull****.

My favorite trick is to bait them at the beginning of a match with a mechakoopa, then immediately firing a charged cannonball. They always jump the gun by grabbing the mechakoopa and eat the cannonball in the face without fail. The mechakoopa bait is also good for creating an opportunity to close in with the clown cart without them trying to space you out.

 

[Mtn64]

If a villager can't react to a charged cannonball, let alone isn't short hopping with forward momentum during pocket, its not a good villager.

 

[SEXINT]

If a villager can't react to a charged cannonball, let alone isn't short hopping with forward momentum during pocket, its not a good villager.

That's how I gauge a villager's competence too.

 

[Kantrip]

I struggle against good wi-fi villagers. Rather than hanging back and throwing out mechakoopas, I think it might be smart to just try to wall villager out with well-spaced fairs and bairs. Does villager have any sort of tools to deal with approaches from the air?