Vs. Ganon

[PEEF!]

Every week I will update the OP with helpful posts that answer questions and offer solutions. Eventually we will put these all together.

This big guy is one of the icees worst matchups. I have more trouble with this than peach.

Pros: Dthrow reverse dair. Infinite handoff?

Problems: Fair to jab smacks us around. Down-tilted ftilt keeps us at bay. Answers?

Anytime you wanna contribute just make a post.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Dash attack gets inside of his range between the Fair->Jab if you time/space it correctly.

 

[PEEF!]

Really?? That works out framewise? Out of shield?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like desynched blizzards and ice blocks are the way to go in this match-up. I'm particularly fond of belay oos to blizzard. Sometimes do several ice blocks, to get the Ganon thinking that you'll just keep spamming. Other times, do one desynched ice block, and have Popo run under his initial full jump to uair him. Wavedashing under him to grab can also be nice, but it's situational (usually best when you have Nana at hand AND know he's going to full jump without retreating). I also try to be patient and wait for him to make a poor landing decision so that I can dsmash him, because I get so much momentum from hitting that dsmash. He'll make bad teching decisions or jump up and fast fall an aerial predictably, getting me a grab. Things like that. Just have to be smart and not RUN INTO his fair or ftilt.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Really?? That works out framewise? Out of shield?

The general rule with Ganon for pretty much every character, I find, is that if Ganon touches your shield, you angle it up and wait, unless he failed spacing immensely. You cannot work in between spaced Fair Jabs or spaced Bairs. It just doesn't work. If the Ganon spaced horrendously, then you can.

With Ice Climbers I'd think that because of their low traction he wouldn't even need to space decently to push you far enough to keep you out with that crap.

If Ganon spaces perfectly on my shield when I'm Sheik I tend to just move back and wait. I don't really see how that wouldn't work for Ice Climbers, especially because their traction seems to ruin their chance of directly counterattacking.

Whatever you do, do your absolute best to avoid rolling into him. Just don't do it. That's the biggest thing they're waiting for (general advice, not really Ice Climber specific).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ganons go out at night to prey on little children who might by chance roll into them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh yeah... be very careful about angling your shield up against Kage. He will intentionally look for shield-stabs if he sees you do this, and even if you don't sometimes. And you can lose matches to Ganon shield stabs very, very easily. Stupid monster Dair.

 

[PEEF!]

What good does angling up do?

How should we approach him? How can we punish side-b? How else can we get grabs here?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

My general playstyle against ganon is to not go in your sheild because there's virtually no way to punish it if he spaces right, which is what he is all about. Lots of dash-dances outside of his range and when you see him jump, you can blizzard with nana out of the dd and guage his reaction from there. If he decides to follow through with the fair, I believe if you're spaced right, the fair will whiff and he'll get tickled by the blizzard. Possibly into more hits if you drag nana in with it. I think most ganons will try to DJFF an aerial though, in which case you can quickly wd under him and at least get him with an uair though.

Ganon typically has a tempo going though. The trick to the matchup is calling him on his rhythm and disrupting it. Like, the first thing any ganon will usually do is an aerial and then he'll guage your reaction and adjust his rhythm accordingly. Aerial ->tilt/jab-> aerial-> etc. It's hard to disrupt his tempo once he gets started though. If you can call him on his jump, you can at least wd in with a SHUair and punish from there.

Also, there is no way in HELL for IC to punish Gerudo dragon OoS. It pushes characters with good traction back too far to punish, it sends IC like halfway across the stage. Lol. The only reason you don't see ganons do it more is because ganon's a combo bucket and typically gets ***** for completely whiffing as opposed to just hitting a sheild where he's relatively safe. He doesn't have the mobility to use it in the same way that CF uses it.(If CF had gerudo dragon, the IC matchup would be HORRENDOUS)

 

[Vanitas]

good stuff Rich Wheeler...maybe people can discuss this stuff on the Match up thread so everything will be organized?

 

[KirbyKaze]

What good does angling up do?

How should we approach him? How can we punish side-b? How else can we get grabs here?

I angle up (when I shield against Ganon, which I try to avoid doing ftr) because Ganons generally do rising or mid-jump aerials and then move back and look to punch the part of your head that's sticking out.

I don't know what works with ICs I just know some general stuff.

With Sheik I try to get close so I can Nair him before his moves come out but that clearly won't work for Ice Climbers.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Approaching Ganon is hard. Fair, fsmash, utilt, and on some occasions dash attack and nair can work. I think it's better to camp Ganon and approach sparingly.

Blizzard is a good tool for keeping Ganon at bay and combating his shield pressure. It rarely leads to much, but it makes it harder for him to pressure you and gives you more time to sit around not doing much, which I think is important since not having to approach often lets you be more unpredictable in when you choose to approach.

More specifically, belay OoS -> blizzard after he fairs your shield can give you some breathing room. Dash dance -> blizzard is really fast and can be set-up often since Ganon isn't the fastest character out there.

Grabbing Ganon is hard and something you shouldn't be trying to do a lot. Sometimes you'll be able to combo into grabs, but it's easier to get grabs by taking note of when he likes to roll and shield.

 

[PEEF!]

good stuff Rich Wheeler...maybe people can discuss this stuff on the Match up thread so everything will be organized?

The matchup thread is sad and outdated. All of these discussions will be compiled into a new up-to-date thread once we think we have everything covered.

Fly, good advice, sounds easier than it is for sure haha.

Let's talk recoveries. How do we get back (I'm thinking that's hopeless) and how do we combat his suprisingly versitile recovery?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Technically, it's impossible for IC to recover against ANYONE. IC's general strat for recovery is DI as best you can, mix up as best you can and pray they miss you.

You don't want to hit ganon with strong attacks off the edge. It's aggravating when they DI an Fsmash perfectly while you're edgeguarding him and they reach the stage without even having to Up-B. It's frustrating and makes me mess up. I'm getting to the point where I just do small, light attacks to him. Something that doesn't have too good of an angle. Ftilts, Bairs and Nairs. Double Nair is a solid gimp if you can get it. Or Nair -> Reverse Bair. The good thing is, people rarely expect IC to do any aggressive edgeguarding. If you feel really daring, you can DJ off the stage while he's performing Wizards foot and Bair him out of it before he gets to do anything.

 

[ChivalRuse]

People need to do charged upsmashes from grabs more. Ganon dies earlier from upsmashes than Falcon. Why worry about him recovering when you can make the most of your vertical killing potential from chaingrabs ending in a charged upsmash finisher?

 

[Kyu Puff]

The match-up thread isn't so out of date; we could probably still use it as a backbone and just add stuff to it.

Recovering with solo Popo, you should try to sweetspot the ledge with double-jump or belay whenever possible; his b-air and f-air bulldoze through side+b so it's almost impossible to recover that way.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you grab Ganon at the edge when he's recovering you could just infinite hand-off. iirc you don't have to move to regrab him from the F-throw.

Kind of gay, but it guarantees he dies.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I doubt any of us would main ICs if we objected to gay stuff.

 

[PEEF!]

I'm having a really hard time with doing the ganon infinite. I'm quite convinced it is unbelieveably hard, unless im a total doof. I can't get that fthrow for the life of me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You should be able to get like 4-5 Popo regrabs if you just walk forward a teeny bit, right? That should be enough damage to kill him, if you do blizzards everytime you grab with Popo.

 

[PEEF!]

Deserves revive.

If they whiff a fair in front of you, i guess kindof walling with it knowing its not going to hit, but keeping you out, what is a good option?

I'm thinking that our uair will beat his fair if we are under the arm. I'm not sure if that actually works though. I just feel odd trying to uair when he is not totally "under" me.

Fly, when you are camping against him, are you on a platform? If so how do you get off when he approaches your plat with fairs and uairs?

 

[ChivalRuse]

You never want to be on platforms with Ganon below you. Pretty sure you can punish whiffed fair with dash attack. If he does a fair while moving forward, you can simply grab him when he lands. I like to occasionally wavedash under him really fast when he does a double jump fair and grab him from behind, but uair is also good. You can usually tell when he's going to jump as opposed to down b / side b. Ganons usually telegraph it. You can even wait for him to do one or the other by just running up and shielding. If he full jumps, SH / FJ uair is pretty good. It'll beat his fair if you space it correctly.

 

[PEEF!]

And if he starts jabbing/tilting your shield...just roll or WD backwards back I'd assume.

Thanks tho chival.

 

[Binx]

if Ganon jabs and you expect it you can start to push him back with your shield, I like to wait for the fair then running shield the jab (gottsa be quick), most Ganon's will jump backwards with another fair and you will gain ground, also if they see you running in with shields they will try to jab to avoid being grabbed thats when you could spotdodge iceblock or blizzard or belay blizzard to peck in some damage. If they don't do a retreating fair though they might hit with with it when you dodge.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If you running shield and then he f-airs your shield... aren't you right back where you started?

 

[ChivalRuse]

The only thing that's nice about the match-up is that if Ganon tries to rush you down, he opens himself up. If he approaches with fair, you can dd grab it. If he down-b's, wavedash oos grab him. If he side-b's, wavedash back grab him. His retreating and in-place aerials are best met (from my experience) with belay oos blizzards, and have Popo do what damage he can from that.

 

[Binx]

If you running shield and then he f-airs your shield... aren't you right back where you started?

Yeah but your not trying to have your shield faired your trying to have your shield jabbed.

So Ganon Fairs your Shield

then you run at him and shield as fast as possible

he jabs your shield

then they usually will retreating fair giving you some space, at this point if you predict it you can desynch an ice block to clank with his next jab to try for a dash attack for grab on him, or you can desynch a blizzard and use it to push him back a little further or maybe have it lead into some pressure.

Its all situational but thats how it goes against Ganon you have to call some of his moves if you want to hit him, because you cant rely on getting inside of him through normal means.

The danger here is that you have to start your spot dodge desynch the second that jab hits your shield to get the iceblock off in time to do anything, if he fairs again in place or at you then there is a good chance he will hit you after the spot dodge.

An option there is to catch him with a dash attack, I think maybe you could have time to running upsmash if you did it fearlessly and immediately but I've yet to test it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Rather than test your shield on Ganon's fair, I feel it's better to wavedash back when you see it coming and start up a desynch from there. Also, if Ganon likes to do instant double jump fast fallen fairs, it's usually pretty easy to sneak in a SH AC uair under him on reaction.

For me, the only situation where you might be forced to shield the fair is when your back is against the ledge. In that case, you can't retreat, so that's where you might apply Binx's idea. I think if you know exactly when Ganon's gonna SHFFL a fair, you can dash attack him in the start-up, which might be a good wday of getting out of corner pressure, but I can certainly understand that sometimes you're forced to shield.

 

[Binx]

Yeah I'm not talking about that being a good situation its just a hopeful option out of it, I don't like wavedashing away from Ganon on any stage because he corners you too fast, Maybe dashing away. Sometimes though when trying to DD grab him he hits Nana and the extra hit stun gets me too, Ganon is really annoying to fight. Stupid Gerudo Tank running over small children.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I'm probably not the most knowledgeable or give the best advice, but I'm going to talk anyway.

Edgeguarding= If they're coming in low,I've always done old school chu dat with f-airs into jabs until the stupid guy dies. It's also pretty funny.

Approaching, I pretty much wavedash around like a maniac trying to bait poorly spaced f-airs and try to get in a jab, dash attack, or something. If you're close and you predict he's going to jump, I try to sneak in a b-air, u-air, or something. Once you hit, try and keep the pressure up till he is off stage or you land that grab. I'm not very good at chain grabbing ganon, but I've had best luck with full hop d-air.

Ganon with stage control is no fun. Your shield can't take it very long, and once you're at mid percentages and get hit, it's extremely difficult to land to do anything until your next stock.

Sopo has a d-throw chain throw on ganon for a wide range of percentages.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ This is all correct.

FYI, the best way to chain grab Ganon is with reverse dair.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Edgeguarding= If they're coming in low,I've always done old school chu dat with f-airs into jabs until the stupid guy dies. It's also pretty funny.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I'm pretty sure the best way to edgeguard him is either d-smash or b-air off the stage.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea, I wasn't sure what he meant by that either. Also, on FD, Fly recommends taking the ledge to force Ganon to up-b onstage, then wavelanding to grab as a good way to edgeguard Falcon. Don't see why it shouldn't work on Ganon.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Oh right, having Nana edgehog works well against both of them. Against Falcon I prefer to just d-smash because if he techs and up+Bs you can d-smash him again out of his up+B (or side+b and freeze him if you're feeling cool). Ganon's up+B stuns you so this probably doesn't work, and in that case b-air off stage or edgehog -> grab would be better.

In two weeks Kage is coming to a tournament in Massachusetts... I'm mming him (and hopefully facing him in tournament... and hopefully not getting wrecked like I did at Genesis.)

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I'm pretty sure the best way to edgeguard him is either d-smash or b-air off the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MKsz5NY_IU 2:56 or something like that. I've always done it cuz I thought it was funny, and he probably should have edgehogged there.

I've been up-B trying to d-smash a few times, but never have with this. I don't know, I try to avoid this matchup all together.

 

[ChivalRuse]

In two weeks Kage is coming to a tournament in Massachusetts... I'm mming him (and hopefully facing him in tournament... and hopefully not getting wrecked like I did at Genesis.)

Best of luck with that, dude.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Edgeguarding Ganon, I usually just jab them as they try to sweetspot. They usually expect a Dsmash so sometimes that makes them airdodge to their doom. If they don't fall for it, jab a few times to see whether they go for the sweetspot every time and then just grab the ledge. Or dsmash when they least expect it. I also DAFtilt and then jump out and nair or bair or something.

If Ganon is being forced to use his Down-B to get his double-jump back to recovery, you can jump WAY out there and Nair or Bair him out of his Down-B and still recover. Just make sure that you save Nana after you Squall back.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I wonder if you could charge an upsmash with your back to the ledge so that it hits with the lower part of the hitbox when Ganon is trying to sweetspot. That would be a cool way to KO him. oolmonke

 

[Binx]

I doubt it would work, but also it would be a very inefficient way to get the KO, Ganon is mad heavy.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you dsmash, Ganon could tech it. Plus, double reverse upsmash would just look so sexy.