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Vent.

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
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Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
I say it's unimaginative because they did nothing but remove technique from melee, so whereas other games sequels typically add more onto the game, they did nothing but draw back on general smash gameplay.

also because of these limitations, i feel as though the amount of creativeness and imagination I get to put into it is significantly lower than in melee.

But I will admit I am biased and know melee far better than brawl.

As for party game-ish: tripping. Plus it sounded better if I had a third adjective.
 

skrach8

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
1,151
Location
Orlando, Florida
Exarch i couldnt agree with you more, but the more i play brawl the happier i am they took out some of the AT. I was chatting with my friend aasem bout crouch canceling. It was cool at first, but the metagame sooned turned into "im going to get hit, crouch cancel, just to hit you with something back. " that gets really old. just more openings for camping and gay waiting. Melee had alot more general tactics i.e. shffling. which basically meant who ever was a better shffler was at least a decent character, or if you want to go the extreme....... fox and falco, whom everyone hated. This game is more about character specific strats and tactics. id much rather have original characters then one simple game mechanic to base everything on.

so basically if you want to be good u have to exploit YOUR characters strategies. which means being smart. so to say this game is dumbed down isnt entirely false but isnt entirely true. Though i do wish it was a little faster paced, but i will say this... if the game had a canceling system such as the GG series, that would be way better then LCanceling. Think freedom mulitplied by infinite. But that wont happen. so nm.
 

xYz

Smash Lord
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I agree with louis, brawl will soon blossem. everyone just needs to exploit their characters in everyway possible. ( OT )also everyone should log on to youtube search dieslow is ****. It's a very good match to watch.
 

Finch

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
1,730
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Tallahassee, FL
This game is more about character specific strats and tactics. id much rather have original characters then one simple game mechanic to base everything on.

projectile camping? I like brawl, but I don't think it's that different from melee in that one strategy won't determine which characters are better.
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
Location
gainesville, fl
good post louis. i do think the character diversity in brawl is its one calling card. i mean, eventually it'll deteriorate into a handful of playable characters, but even those characters will have more diversity than melee's top tier.

i do think youve exaggerated the effectiveness of crouch canceling, as there are attacks that nullify it/out space it (it never bothered me once i started accounting for it). also, in brawl i find unless im a "good" character, im gonna end up trading hits for the percentages where cc was effective anyway b/c of brawl's reduced hit stun. and melee certainly has more than one game mechanic. but i get your drift.

a problem i have with brawl is it seems more like the other top fighting games in terms of its game mechanics i.e. linearity (not to say it IS like them) whereas melee was a free-flowing mess of improvisation that had a fairly unique style of gameplay. pressing character advantages throughout a match seems more typical of traditional fighters as well (although someone more well versed in other fighters feel free to correct me)

ok basically i feel like brawl took out the stuff that made melee unique

edit: keeping with the melee had unique game mechanics with individual play styles theme. back in the day, i could watch tipman or mike g (even though hes taken the opposite stance here :mad:) play for hours, not to dissect the strategies they were employing but just for enjoyment's sake. simply put, melee, played creatively, could be a thing of beauty. theres not too much i find sexy about brawl
 

OrieL

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
34
I say it's unimaginative because they did nothing but remove technique from melee, so whereas other games sequels typically add more onto the game, they did nothing but draw back on general smash gameplay.

also because of these limitations, i feel as though the amount of creativeness and imagination I get to put into it is significantly lower than in melee.

But I will admit I am biased and know melee far better than brawl.

As for party game-ish: tripping. Plus it sounded better if I had a third adjective.
So basically you're comparing a baby to an old man right? Just checking.
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
Location
gainesville, fl
So basically you're comparing a baby to an old man right? Just checking.
I was going to respond with some generic and demeaning statement like "And you are?"

But then I remembered seeing you tied for last at Seibrik's tournament with someone named BlackCockMonsters
 

skrach8

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
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Orlando, Florida
i definately feel you Fred in how unique melee was, and I agree 100%, hence why i mentioned the canceling system of GG. I do miss the freedom of combos. RIP.

I mean obviously there was more to melee then shffling, but you caught my drift, I need not explain any further.

As for the crouch cancel thing, really how many characters could consistently get around that. Pretty much the top characters, but its all situational i guess. I.E. SHIEK crouch cancel gayness. I thought it was pretty sweet how some characters had better crouch cancels then others, samus had that unique play style.

I hate projectile camping, but lets face it. Thats never going to leave. Some people just like to play that way. But there are some characters that are naturally geared that way. Olimar is numero uno for this award. I thought he was going to be about throwing pikmin and grabbing, but to my dismay people find it way easier to simply spam the pikmin throw. But soon people are going to realize that there are only six and they can die. Defeat the arsenal you defeat the problem. At least thats my tactic. But thats a noob tactic with marth that i use.... so dont take my word on it.
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
Location
gainesville, fl
further on this topic and as strange as it might seem to find wisdom in doodah's posts (not insulting you pete, im just usually too busy laughing), i'm gonna copy something josh said to me on aim

harriettheguy00 (1:07:23 PM): i kind of agreed with petes post, about how when you play a character well in brawl, you make some good decisions and tactics, but then any other player who plays the same character would be doing the same thing and itd just be uncreative. you can only see like 2 moves ahead in this game and you have limited amount of good options


while this is a bit of an overstatement, i basically agree that it seems like we're going to have more diversity through # of characters, yet less diversity within each individual character. so with minimal tech to learn and a smaller number of options in general as well as the availability of youtube, i EVENTUALLY foresee a fairly stale metagame where learning character matchups is like beating dungeons in zelda (statement not to be taken literally)

edit: in the end though, depth wont define whether this game is good. basketball is a fairly simple game but is hugely popular and I find it very entertaining. Pool (billiards) on the other hand, is one of the deepest games I've played. But at a top level of play, its ****ing boring as hell.
 

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
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Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
As for the crouch cancel thing, really how many characters could consistently get around that?
As two of my favorite characters to play in melee are two of the best crouch cancellers, I actually have a much shorter list of chars which couldn't get around it consistently.
Those who had trouble getting around it were:
Roy, DK, Pika, Pichu, M2 and Kirby
Every other character I can think of a main approach or tactic which specifically counters CCers. These are the ones I can't. But even Roy who I know the most about of these Chars has strategies for getting around CCers, they just aren't 100% reliable.

Thats 6/26 characters who have trouble against CCers. And playing as Roy i can honestly say CCing doesn't normally play too much into account when I'm Roy. Samus' CC is the only exception.
--------------------
And agreed with Fred and Josh. Though there may be more variability between two characters, I really think there will be one "best" playstyle to the fully developed brawl characters of the future.

So whereas there was the Tippy Ganon the Bushman Ganon the Eddie Ganon the Raffa Ganon the Renth Ganon the Chaddd Ganon or some combination thereof, in Brawl there will be the M2k Marth. And the M2k Pit, and the M2k Lucas and the M2k Olimar and the m2k ddd and very few other variations for each character.
 

LaughterIsDeadly

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
90
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Orlando, FL
i am saying bring melee back

melee is the only fighter ever made where your characters have that much freedom of movement. to me, this comes down to the fact i practiced, studied, and most importantly enjoyed melee for years, and now its been taken away and replaced with something completely different.

terrible analogy: its like i was a tennis player, and then, one day i woke up and discovered all my fellow tennis players now play ping pong instead. Is ping pong a good game? yes. but what the **** happened to tennis?
we're not playing ping pong. we're playing tennis 2020 super deluxe addition 9000 ....vs. 3.0
 

Crom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
472
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Orlando, FL
I was going to respond with some generic and demeaning statement like "And you are?"

But then I remembered seeing you tied for last at Seibrik's tournament with someone named BlackCockMonsters
rofl

that was awesome
 

OrieL

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
34
I was going to respond with some generic and demeaning statement like "And you are?"

But then I remembered seeing you tied for last at Seibrik's tournament with someone named BlackCockMonsters
Nice. Make fun of me because I'm new to the tournament scene. You're a cool guy. Assured.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
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Boynton Beach, FL
I understand and agree with the slow part, Thomas, but not the other 2. I think the game is MAD slow compared to Melee, but there are lots of great fighting games that are slow-paced (i.e. Virtua Fighter, 3rd Strike, and others), so I don't see what speed has to do with how deep and involved a game can be. If you could, please explain the unimaginative and party game-ish opinions of yours. I'd like to hear them.
Speed has a lot to do with a fighting game's design. The problem with Brawl, is that the game was ostensibly designed with little consideration for the 1v1 aspect of its gameplay. As a result, its speed was scaled back with little concern for the consequences. I truly believe 1v1 Brawl is about as makeshift as they come regarding current fighting game standards, as the game's design simply does not foster fundamental, conventional criteria such as real diversity of styles and punishment rewards (RockCrock and Queen touched on this particular point earlier in the thread).

Virtua Fighter and 3rd Strike do not suffer from a slower pace, simply because these games (like other traditional fighters) are crafted with this element in mind and their focus is to create an intimate 1v1 setting between two human players.

The arenas are smaller, fostering intimacy. Your character is perpetually facing the opponent, again, to foster intimacy -- compare this specifically to Brawl, where because of its Buffer System and Tripping mechanics, the game often creates a discord. In 3rd Strike and VF, there are dedicated combination systems in place, whose sole purpose is to provide satisfying methods of punishment -- punishment of your opponent's mistakes (part of this is because these games don't impose arbitrary lag on aerial attacks). These games function on a 1v1 criteria despite their relatively slow speed, simply because their design is in harmony with it.

On the flip side, let's look at Guilty Gear. Despite the fact that the game's arenas are often multiple screens in length and height, it has all of these elements. Why? It has the necessary increase in speed. Furthermore, the game imposes Universal System mechanics to foster the intimacy necessary for the speed element to be harmonious. Characters can Quick Dash. Almost all of them can Air Dash. There are penalties in place for keeping away from your opponent for too long to discourage camping/turtling. Conversely, actions that imply intentions to engage your opponent are rewarded, such as simply moving forward (increase in Tension).

Brawl has large arenas, with characters that can turn their back and run away from you, and a lack of a meaty combo system -- and it's slow. Melee's 1v1 element thrived under a similar paradigm -- sans the sh*tty combo system -- because the game had the speed necessary to make it work.

But hey, at least I can Footstool Jump in Brawl. That's something, right?


-Syn
 

PB&J

Smash Hero
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lawrenceville, GA
Exarch- i wasn't trying to start a flame war because i don't have the patience for that..and i wasn't trying to insult synikal either i was just stating my opinion about brawl..sorry if i offended anyone i just love the game..im not trying to convince anybody to like it either..people like what they like..i was just saying if people don't like brawl ..please stop making countless threads about they don't like it..after a while it is just blah blah blah..anyway again i was just stating how i like the game and people need to calm down with all the brawl hate..after this post..i'm not even gonna try because i know there will be another thread just like this one in the future..
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
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gainesville, fl
Nice. Make fun of me because I'm new to the tournament scene. You're a cool guy. Assured.
i made fun of you because you posted a sarcastic one liner in a relatively intelligent thread discussing a topic on which you have no knowledge (since you didn't go to melee tournaments).
furthermore, your one liner simply restated an argument thats already been made more eloquently multiple times in this and every other thread on smashboards

edit: synikal's last post better summed up my impressions of this game than did my last several thousand groping words in this thread. everyone read it ****it

edit2: also i played today and lost 2 three-stock matches despite landing 28 and 20 grabs (no chaingrabs). great job making shield camping punishable sakurai
 

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
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Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
I think I and some of the other brawl haters (Fred and Syn specifically) have been very good about keeping our dislike of this game focused on this one topic.

I'm not angry or frustrated at anyone. Just disappointed with the game.

A new game has come out, it's not like we're different people all of a sudden. I have never had and will not have any hate with GA (so long as chill people like Wes MikeG Chad Bobby etc. continue to be there.)

I just happen to agree with Fred, Syn, Chops, Pete, and Mark.

Just read Synikal's last post.
 

Linguini

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
4,698
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Weston, Florida
Im just liking melee more because ganon didn't walk like he had a d!ck up his ***.
Seriously, what did ganon deserve to get ***** like that?
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
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Linguini:

If you truly like Melee more, why host a Brawl tournament? Why not help Melee's longevity by standing by your convictions?


-Kye
 

Finch

Smash Lord
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Dec 3, 2007
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Tallahassee, FL
Seriously you should host a melee tournament.

Or just call it a brawl tournament so more people go then be like "LOL JK WERE PLAYING MELEE NUBS"
 

SabinX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
378
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Northridge, CA
Brawl is by no means amazing, it isn't Melee, and it isn't bad.

The tripping is stupid. Most of the stages are trash. But that doesn't make it this abomination of a fighter that people are hellbent on tearing to shreds.

Melee was more fun due to its speed? To an extent sure. But speed doesn't make a game. Just look at MvC2. Game is super fast, and super terrible. (I love it, just not for competitive play reasons.) Anyone who doesn't know about mvc2 please don't hate on that statement and its cast of 4 playable characters (w/o assist variatons)

You can't compare any game to guilty gear because GG is as good as it gets for fighters.
Overall solid cast. Every character has tools and insanely in-depth strategies, combos, and precise movesets. Cancel points, tension gauge to use for supers/cancels. 4 different variations of blocking while not using a block button. Fast paced, non-noob friendly, intense matches. I could go on.. everyone who likes fighting games should try out GGAC.

As for the talks of intimacy in fighters. I don't feel that is really the case either. I felt no intimacy in melee. I felt it was more.. when will character A chain grab character B first. Or which fox/falco ditto will slip first. Or how long before a non fox/marth player (excluding FL and its random obsession with ganon/falco) will win a big tournament.

Brawl as it stands now, seems to have more than 2-3 majority favored capable candidates to win.

Don't argue mango puff winning recent big melee tournament or other random instances because sure they happen, but you can't deny the obvious characters always prevailing.

So why hate on something new where you can try out a variation?

The more I play the more I feel the game really isn't that much slower than the pace of melee. Lots of characters speeds are great. If you want a more melee feel for a game pick a faster character perhaps? you dont need L canceling. Learn the moves that have least lag. This game incorporates tilts and spacing so much more since being grabbed/punished is much easier.

Camping in this game isn't a concern to me. You want to stop campers. Pick a solid rush down character and get good with them. MK/Lucas/Kirby/GW(to an extent)/Marth etc.. Or just do it right back to them. toon link , olimar, snake, hell wolf and falco can approach with good timed lasers and do fine. Some characters have chain grabs and need them to be playable. IC, DDD, Falco are good counter picks for these reasons. When you catch a camping, turtling character get that damage on them. Stage selection helps a lot as well.

Tired of getting block/grabbed and punished. stop doing crappy air moves on block. can't do that stuff in guilty gear or other games. YOU GET GRABBED AND PUNISHED. Use air dodge more, its your friend. duh right?

I agree the 'huge' feel of stages takes away from the game a bit.

The diminishing results (prorating) adds to having to adjust your play style to the match ups.
Not saying it's good or bad for smash in general but its a strategy element.

So much for spamming 1 good move or abusing a throw in melee?

Brawl rewards smart players and people who have experience with other games including melee. Mind games and feints are much more prominent I feel in this game.

Something I will agree on the vent campaign is ganon. Not even a big fan, just why. No reason for him to be what he is in brawl. Shame.
 

GA Peach

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
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CHUG! CHUG! CHUG!
Speed has a lot to do with a fighting game's design. The problem with Brawl, is that the game was ostensibly designed with little consideration for the 1v1 aspect of its gameplay. As a result, its speed was scaled back with little concern for the consequences. I truly believe 1v1 Brawl is about as makeshift as they come regarding current fighting game standards, as the game's design simply does not foster fundamental, conventional criteria such as real diversity of styles and punishment rewards (RockCrock and Queen touched on this particular point earlier in the thread).

Virtua Fighter and 3rd Strike do not suffer from a slower pace, simply because these games (like other traditional fighters) are crafted with this element in mind and their focus is to create an intimate 1v1 setting between two human players.

The arenas are smaller, fostering intimacy. Your character is perpetually facing the opponent, again, to foster intimacy -- compare this specifically to Brawl, where because of its Buffer System and Tripping mechanics, the game often creates a discord. In 3rd Strike and VF, there are dedicated combination systems in place, whose sole purpose is to provide satisfying methods of punishment -- punishment of your opponent's mistakes (part of this is because these games don't impose arbitrary lag on aerial attacks). These games function on a 1v1 criteria despite their relatively slow speed, simply because their design is in harmony with it.

On the flip side, let's look at Guilty Gear. Despite the fact that the game's arenas are often multiple screens in length and height, it has all of these elements. Why? It has the necessary increase in speed. Furthermore, the game imposes Universal System mechanics to foster the intimacy necessary for the speed element to be harmonious. Characters can Quick Dash. Almost all of them can Air Dash. There are penalties in place for keeping away from your opponent for too long to discourage camping/turtling. Conversely, actions that imply intentions to engage your opponent are rewarded, such as simply moving forward (increase in Tension).

Brawl has large arenas, with characters that can turn their back and run away from you, and a lack of a meaty combo system -- and it's slow. Melee's 1v1 element thrived under a similar paradigm -- sans the sh*tty combo system -- because the game had the speed necessary to make it work.

But hey, at least I can Footstool Jump in Brawl. That's something, right?


-Syn
You make some good points, Syn. You too, Thomas. I don't agree with your point that Brawl does not have solid combos, though. There are very solid combos with many characters, just not to the 0-death variety that Melee and many other fighting games have, and this is a very good thing, IMO, making so that one mistake/one landed hit does not end a match. I believe in punishment for mistakes, but not to that degree.

In fighting games, no matter how much it is looked down upon, playing defensively/turtling IS a valid strategy, and as such, is not invincible, either. Look at Fox in Melee. He was a magnificent camper, especially against Peach and other slower characters. It was hard to get around, but not invincible, although against Peach, it almost was. Incentive to attack is not needed in a game for people who understand that being timid can be horribly exploited. It happened to me at Final Round. I tried to play a more timid style during loser's finals in Brawl and paid dearly for it. It ended up costing me 2nd place. My opponent found a way around my turtling and punished me. It should be up to the player, not the game, to punish strategies that still function within the game's intended design. In any game where you can turtle, you can stop your opponent from doing so, even in Brawl. So far as tripping goes, I don't trip very much at all, nor do i know what triggers it exactly, so i don't have a lot to say about it. The Buffer System actually adds some interesting things you can do, and it actually gives the game a little 3S feel, which is cool.

With the way Brawl is designed, I feel that it can be more involving mindgame-wise than Melee, and it causes people to think a bit more about their actions. Instead of poking and feeling out your opponent by using excessive amounts of aerial attacks, the game forces a Super Turbo-esque footsie game, making combatants use ground pokes to make each other react. Without the use of L-canceling to cover tracks/mistakes, going into the air can be risky, like in Super Turbo. You have to have solid ground knowledge and know when and when not to go into the air. Instead of universal techniques being applied to every character, the game is now more about character-specific tricks and match up specific tricks. In Melee, whatever characters applied L-canceling and Wavedashing were the dominant ones, regardless of character match-up. For Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth, the same strategy could be applied against every character, regardless of who they were, simply because this rule applied to this game.

I agree that speed has some sway on design of depth, but not in Brawl's case. With the loss in speed, more characters were made viable. And with the exit of L-canceling and Wavedashing, more thought needs to be applied to advancing and attacking. Although Melee was a very outstanding game (I mean, I played it competitively and loved it, too), I think Brawl is a good change of pace, and still a solid competitive fighter.
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
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gainesville, fl
Tired of getting block/grabbed and punished. stop doing crappy air moves on block. can't do that stuff in guilty gear or other games. YOU GET GRABBED AND PUNISHED
like syn, rock and qdvs, i just dont see this. all of the characters i enjoy to any degree in brawl have zero grab combos. (i havent seen many consistent non-chaingrab grab combos period). grabbing someone just doesnt lead to anything. like i said in an earlier post, I landed 28 grabs in a 3 stock match with ike and lost. throwing someone up in this game only seems to put them in a marginally disadvantageous position as most characters now have some combination of a godly air dodge, 1000 jumps, and an untouchable up b.
 

XIF

Smash Master
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Nov 30, 2003
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ZOMG Duluth, GA mostly... sometimes Weston, FL
Lol peach players. peach is f*cking amazing at getting around fox's camping its just that ****ty peach players dont know how to lure him LOL pathetic sad and jons all jons lol
says the... falco player?

what is your experience in the match up?

oh yeah, you dont main Fox or Peach, and never used them in tournament, so you couldnt understand fully what the match up is like.

I dont try and pass judgment on matchups like Marth and fox, or marth and sheik, or any of the other matchups I dont know because I dont know them enough. How does Fox get around marth's CG? I certainly dont know, but then again I dont pretend like its impossible for fox to win. Becauses fox's do win. But Peach's dont, at least not nearly often enough.

You even said yourself you can't even play peach properly that she's too weird for you so I dont really understand what you're basing this off of. I mean c'mon lambchops you're generally a smart individual when it comes to your expertise which is Falco and general melee gameplay but honestly...

as for the original topic at hand.

I dont have much to add to marty's post. I will reiterate that the notion that brawl simply doesnt have combo's and that camping prevails is simply not true. 0-death combos certainly are almost non exsistant, But combo's doing 50+ damage arent exactly uncommon. Plus because of the new air dodge mechanic (on top of the old fashioned melee way of getting around camping) makes countering campy styles far more effective.
 

jwj442

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
212
Here's what Cactuar wrote on why Brawl rewards camping:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4127465&postcount=45

The Push and Pull: This is where we encounter the term "mind games" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In smash, we still have the same basic fighter concept, and are given an additional component:

The Edge: Encompasses all things related to killing your opponent off the sides and bottom of the stage through guarding the edge. This is where we see gimping most often.

For the Smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push and pull and the punishment.

In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push and pull less important than being able to consistently death combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push and pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (This is a slightly overstated )

In Melee, there was a balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running(your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hit stun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

I will stop at this point, only because the my purpose here is to explain the imbalance of Brawl and why the mechanisms in this game prevent it from being reasonably viable on a competitive level. Sure, they may continue to play the game in tournament and it may even become big, but it doesn't mean it should be. Brawl has ruined all of the work that we, the melee community, put into getting Smash recognized as a fighting game. Brawl is a platformer party game, not a fighting game.

If anyone disagrees with anything, please feel free to respond with your argument so that I can ruin you. I would further elaborate on what I already have, but I'm starving, and it has probably affected the coherence of some of this post.
Thoughts? I don't entirely agree...some people point to a rather dull set of ROB vs. Snake videos as evidence, but it looked to me like the Snake player was turning "Brawl is a campfest" into a self-fulfilling prophecy by not trying hard enough to approach. And while DK has a bit of a hard time getting past the projectile spam, he does well against people who try to camp with shields and rolling once you get in range.
 

?!?

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Holla at me if you need to hire a teams partner. I
says the... falco player?

what is your experience in the match up?

oh yeah, you dont main Fox or Peach, and never used them in tournament, so you couldnt understand fully what the match up is like.

I dont try and pass judgment on matchups like Marth and fox, or marth and sheik, or any of the other matchups I dont know because I dont know them enough. How does Fox get around marth's CG? I certainly dont know, but then again I dont pretend like its impossible for fox to win. Becauses fox's do win. But Peach's dont, at least not nearly often enough.

You even said yourself you can't even play peach properly that she's too weird for you so I dont really understand what you're basing this off of. I mean c'mon lambchops you're generally a smart individual when it comes to your expertise which is Falco and general melee gameplay but honestly...

as for the original topic at hand.

I dont have much to add to marty's post. I will reiterate that the notion that brawl simply doesnt have combo's and that camping prevails is simply not true. 0-death combos certainly are almost non exsistant, But combo's doing 50+ damage arent exactly uncommon. Plus because of the new air dodge mechanic (on top of the old fashioned melee way of getting around camping) makes countering campy styles far more effective.
cuz i undertand the game mroe than you lol I dont need to use peach I can just see what you can do with her and with fox . its not my fault im an obvservant player and I can categorries tactics in my head. lol learn to lure like I said. and I dont feel liek typing a huge essay what you can do to fox with peach which is similar with ganon lol
 
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