Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[LancerStaff]

but being able to escape low-percent combos is not a good thing. The return of combos was one of the things I was excited about, but with vectoring reducing a lot of the possible follow ups you can get, I see Smash 4 possibly going in a defensive neutral metagame.

...If it's actually as potent as you're making it out to be.

 

[-Key-]

 

[NWRL]

OH GOD ITS VECTOR

 

[x412]

I'm still trying to make sense out of this so i'm going to categorize this stuff:

Melee DI:
Sm4sh DI:

What is the difference between the two? I feel as if I've always played using the new Sm4sh DI where you just hold a direction before/during getting hit so you can go that way while getting hit. For instance, in Melee, when someone is constantly jabbing, if you hold into the punches you move left into your opponents body and past him. Is it not the same?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

but being able to escape low-percent combos is not a good thing. The return of combos was one of the things I was excited about, but with vectoring reducing a lot of the possible follow ups you can get, I see Smash 4 possibly going in a defensive neutral metagame.

Read the OP again. Vectoring has less of an effect for low hitstun moves at lower percents. Low percent combos should still be possible. Also this mechanic has no negative effect on offensive play. Defensive options in Smash 4 are still more limited than Brawl's due to the increased hitstun and airdodge nerfs. If anything, it promotes good reads and smart play rather than brain dead auto-combos.

 

[Go7]

So judging by your Jigglypuff data the estimated magnitude of the second vector is ten percent of the original? I don't know the actual ratio of knockback velocity to percent, but if it is 1:1 then ten percent would be what is available for the defense?

 

[Accelerator]

I'm still trying to make sense out of this so i'm going to categorize this stuff:

Melee DI:
Sm4sh DI:

What is the difference between the two? I feel as if I've always played using the new Sm4sh DI where you just hold a direction before/during getting hit so you can go that way while getting hit. For instance, in Melee, when someone is constantly jabbing, if you hold into the punches you move left into your opponents body and past him. Is it not the same?

Melee DI let you influence your trajectory when hit. It doesn't affect the amount of knock back you receive. No matter where you DI, the amount of knock back is the same. The goal of DI when trying to survive at high percents was to maximize the amount of space your character was sent flying to avoid the blast zone.

VI lets you play a part in the amount of knock back you receive. You can no longer alter your characters trajectory, but you can increase and decrease the amount of knock back he receives.

 

[ancara22]

I'm gonna do the math here, and end this mess finally.

All I need to know is usual kill% for jigglypuff, and this silly stuff on how okay/bad/meh it is can be put down into solid numerical fact.

 

[Lumenebrae]

So does this apply fully on hit or is it "adjustable" during flight?

Or rather, when does it read the input(s)?

 

[TTTTTsd]

So let's say this mechanic lets you escape certain combos....

If I inverse this, does this technique make certain things that wouldn't combo before combo if you make a read on it and play smart, for instance using a different move to set something up?

Because if so, that's like twice as dynamic and could result in something that, when fully fleshed out, could be awesome.

 

[Renji64]

Read the OP again. Vectoring has less of an effect for low hitstun moves at lower percents. Low percent combos should still be possible. Also this mechanic has no negative effect on offensive play. Defensive options in Smash 4 are still more limited than Brawl's due to the increased hitstun and airdodge nerfs. If anything, it promotes good reads and smart play rather than brain dead auto-combos.

Reads as in camping and standing around like the last entry?

 

[x412]

Melee DI let you influence your trajectory when hit. It doesn't affect the amount of knock back you receive. No matter where you DI, the amount of knock back is the same. The goal of DI when trying to survive at high percents was to maximize the amount of space your character was sent flying to avoid the blast zone.

VI lets you play a part in the amount of knock back you receive. You can no longer alter your characters trajectory, but you can increase and decrease the amount of knock back he receives.

Doesn't make sense. What about the case where people holding up after getting thrown to go further to get out of Fox's U-Throw/U-Air combo? You increase knockback to get out. Or am I imagining things? I've always played like this "VI" mechanic existed...

 

[AttackstorM]

It's also important to note that there is something that can be done with Smash 4 that couldn't be done with previous Smashes--patches. If VI does prove to be a problem, rather than throwing tantrums, it might be worth a shot to try and bring these concerns to Nintendo's attention. Nintendo can be very stubborn, but if people are loud enough and state their position eloquently and professionally, we might see some adjustments later on.

if nintendo could patch and would patch in the melee days, i bet they would have took out wavedashing, L-canceling etc. and many would have been upset about that...i fear, i don't think it's a good thing if nintendo gets involved and starts patching every advanced technique discovered in sm4sh, unless it is something that can truly break the game or make it literally unplayable.

 

[GP&B]

If anything, it promotes good reads and smart play rather than brain dead auto-combos.

But regular DI already promoted that.

 

[wakka444]

I can indeed confirm that an incorrect use of Vector results in the player being put in a poor position.

Megaman's d-throw -> fair is possible with no vector input, but if the user holds up it makes it difficult to follow up with anything. However, if you u-throw and they are vectoring up then it puts them in an awful position as Megaman gets to u-air wall, metal blade, and then try to attack.

This is a simplistic thing, but the start of some awesome mixups. All this doom and gloom of "oh no no combos and guaranteed setups out of grabs" is boring.

Could they just avoid both by inputting both up and to the side since you get the full effect of each?

 

[LancerStaff]

Reads as in camping and standing around like the last entry?

Reads like reading your opponent's Vectoring.

 

[Accelerator]

Also this mechanic has no negative effect on offensive play. Defensive options in Smash 4 are still more limited than Brawl's due to the increased hitstun and airdodge nerfs. If anything, it promotes good reads and smart play rather than brain dead auto-combos.

Are people just not understanding the different between DI and VI? There is no point in reading a VI because if they do it correctly, they will be out of hit stun. A read is predicting where your opponent will go, and catching them to continue the combo while they are still in hit stun. You READ their DI. if you read them wrongly, they're out of hit stun.

VI is not a guessing game. It doesn't alter trajectory, it alters the amount of hit back you receive. You can't "read" VI because the superior decision is clear, get out of hit stun. Of course I'm going to VI out.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I still think you can "vector" wrong. Much like any mechanic that gives the player control, the other player can exploit that. To what end? No idea. But I'd say let's let this sort itself out when the game drops.

 

[Signia]

Guys.

There is no reason not to call it DI.

It's much simpler. It won't confuse people because DI is already different depending on the game.

Just... just call it DI.

And know that DI in this game works differently.

But great find!

No, don't call different mechanics the same thing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are people just not understanding the different between DI and VI? There is no point in reading a VI because if they do it correctly, they will be out of hit stun. A read is predicting where your opponent will go, and catching them to continue the combo while they are still in hit stun. You READ their DI. if you read them wrongly, they're out of hit stun.

VI is not a guessing game. It doesn't alter trajectory, it alters the amount of hit back you receive. You can't "read" VI because the superior decision is clear, get out of hit stun. Of course I'm going to VI out.

What? If you VI out and I do a move that sends you away, you're way offstage and can be edgeguarded. The opposite and you're combo food. It's only as simple as you're suggesting if they only have one direction they can send you reasonably well. It has mix-ups much like DI had.

 

[x412]

I think we need an infographic like the one on the last page but comparing the VI mechanic to DI mechanic and then put it in the main post. It's the only way.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

image

A vector of Vector. Clever, I dig it.

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

FIND THE COMPOOTER ROOM!!!

 

[Accelerator]

What? If you VI out and I do a move that sends you away, you're way offstage and can be edgeguarded. The opposite and you're combo food. It's only as simple as you're suggesting if they only have one direction they can send you reasonably well. It has mix-ups much like DI had.

Your scenario doesn't make sense. There is no percentage where if I don't VI I'm in your immediate vicinity to be combo food, and if I VI I'm way off stage.

If I'm at 100%, and you hit me, I would either VI in to get 80% knock back, or not VI at all to get 100% of the knock back. Or maybe I WOULD VI out if the move at awful knock back, even at 100%. This type of scenario has a correct answer that can be achieved after being in the situation a couple of times.

 

[ancara22]

Ya know what? I'll just go with a picked number at random and finally end this:

Let's go with I think a fitting % for Jigglypuff here, 128%, since she's so light.

Now then, based on what was shown in the one image last page, and several bits of info before, the amount is about either 0.25 or 0.10 damage-wise on how far you go if you hold a specific direction. As such, this is how the math adds up:

128.00 - (128.00 * 0.10) = 115.20
128.00 - (128.00 * 0.25) = 96.00

As such, if the reduction is 0.10, then a Jigglypuff at 128% damage-kill% would live at 115.2%, and if at 0.25, then it would be living at 96%.

So in other words, the fairer of the two is clearly the 0.10 reduction, if all is correct currently. And by then, ya only need one more good hit to take them out when you land one to get the job done.

And as for directions being added to the mix, that's an easy one: point in the direction with more space, and thus less pain. But this then means more incentive to then have the attacker desire the other player to keep closer to the side edge, especially for grabs, smashes and the like. So there's that to also consider.

tl;dr: There is A LOT to consider here, with both mathmatical, competitive, and simple logical facts pointing out one thing: this can actually go well, and be quite an interesting new twist/change for the game, and how battles go. And yes, campers will exists (and they always will), but for the majority of us, I think there's potential for some exciting smashing fun here.

Or in other, more cheesy words: THEM'S GOLD IN THEM THAR VECTORS

 

[TewnLeenk]

I think VI will be an interesting change to the game. Too early to tell if it's good or bad.

 

[wing zrow]

Can someone explain this in layman's terms?

 

[T-block]

I think we need an infographic like the one on the last page but comparing the VI mechanic to DI mechanic and then put it in the main post. It's the only way.

I can try to explain it in words...

If this were Melee, then holding right wouldn't add the red arrows. Instead, it would ROTATE the purple arrow by some angle (~20 degrees). The LENGTH of the arrow would be the same (imagine a clock hand rotating). This means that by holding right, you actually reduce your VERTICAL knockback in Melee, because that rotation turns some of the original knockback into horizontal knockback. Whereas in Smash 4, you don't mess with the vertical knockback at all by holding right... you only introduce some horizontal knockback.

 

[Renji64]

Welp sucks for me i enjoy both of those things.

 

[Strong Badam]

What? If you VI out and I do a move that sends you away, you're way offstage and can be edgeguarded. The opposite and you're combo food. It's only as simple as you're suggesting if they only have one direction they can send you reasonably well. It has mix-ups much like DI had.

Option selects are viable IMO.
Let's say the opponent can either kill you upward or off the left side of the stage. You could argue that VIing downward is bad if you get hit left, and VIing inward has no effect on your upward KO percent. A sort-of mixup, where it's not bad to do one thing,
Except you can VI both down and in, covering both scenarios.

 

[kupo15]

do you not still want to DI towards the corner of the blast zone to live longer? like instead of DIing down, you'd still want to DI down and right to survive vertical KO moves right?

lol so the game adds knockback if you DI
the hell

From what I can tell that's exactly right. It adds or removes kb depending on how you DI as if you are altering your % during that hit. From the video SB posted in the OP, that's the only explanation if you can not die completely vertically at 100% for example and simultaneously die at 100% if you held up instead

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Feeling extremely indifferent to this mechanic. Four days in and a controversial mechanic has been found already...

Whatever. I need rest right now.

 

[sodapopSquid]

Then VI both down and in.

Wouldn't you just be able to predict that and follow up?

 

[Thor]

Doesn't make sense. What about the case where people holding up after getting thrown to go further to get out of Fox's U-Throw/U-Air combo? You increase knockback to get out. Or am I imagining things? I've always played like this "VI" mechanic existed...

No that's SDI, that's tapping to go a distance during hitstun, and so you get hit by uair1 but go upward enough to not get hit by uair2.

On the downside, I have to learn to influence my trajectory/distance differently.

On the plus side, now that n00b DI I sometimes have (in teams when I'm too single-minded on helping out a teammate and run into someone in the way) will actually be pro vectoring!

I would guess Sakurai made this change as a way to help even out the playing field between new and old players - often new players will hear about DI and think "hold down" when getting hit by Fox usmash, which doesn't help at all, but in the new one it actually does.

It might not be the easiest to adapt to, but it sure seems interesting! [It can help escape strings that couldn't always be escaped if they were present in other games/if we had DI instead - ex: hold away from Falco while being hit by his dthrow in Brawl, had vectoring been present, would have actually made the CG last less time.]

I think we should come up with a catchy name for it (no offense, vectoring sounds kind of bland...). How about Distance Influence (DI) ? [JK that term is probably a bad idea because of obvious confusion [though announcers wouldn't have to change their vernacular when referring to players who survive strong blows or die super early - "GREAT DI!", "Wow that was terrible DI" or "NO DEEAYE", but I'm trying to think of other terms... "Distance adjustment, flight adjustment, flight influence, trajectory influence"... hm I do see why you named it "vectoring" to begin with...]

View attachment 25473
Welp sucks for me i enjoy both of those things.

Go play Smash 64 then - by this logic DI is also bad in that it makes less combos and later deaths too. You're just used to it by now. [But you can avoid almost all of that by only having to deal with SDI in 64, so plenty of combos and rather early deaths are present there.] (Also I like Smash 64, I'm just saying if you don't want mechanics that reduce combos it's you're best bet [Or Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3].)

 

[Rᴏb]

VI sounds like it'll serve as a good mixup for faster characters since they'll be able to trick people into VIing incorrectly (in theory).
I can't really see any characters being fast enough to do that, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As a side note, why does this sound more like a bug than a mechanic? Like they were going for DI and then this happened lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

As a side note, why does this sound more like a bug than a mechanic? Like they were going for DI and then this happened lol.

This seems very intentional.

 

[ancara22]

VI also brings up possibly a MASSIVE question on the table:

Which characters does this benefit most?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Still strange either way. At least this thread helped me understand DI a lot better as far as other Smash games go, holy cow. I never thought I'd get an explanation for it here of all places.

 

[x412]

I can try to explain it in words...

If this were Melee, then holding right wouldn't add the red arrows. Instead, it would ROTATE the purple arrow by some angle (~20 degrees). The LENGTH of the arrow would be the same (imagine a clock hand rotating). This means that by holding right, you actually reduce your VERTICAL knockback in Melee, because that rotation turns some of the original knockback into horizontal knockback. Whereas in Smash 4, you don't mess with the vertical knockback at all by holding right... you only introduce some horizontal knockback.

I think I got it. So for example:

Melee DI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick to left/right will change which way you go. Holding up does nothing. Holding down does nothing. Distance remains the same. Depending on how far left or right depends on if you go completely left or right or into the corner of the analog stick.

Sm4sh VI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick in any direction affects your movement into that direction chosen. You can go further up left, further up, further up right, closer down left, closer down, closer down right.