Uses for Foxtrotting, Perfect Pivoting, and Dash Dancing for ZSS

[David Viran]

This thread is to discuss how foxtrotting, perfect pivoting, and dash dancing is useful for zss. This thread is reminicent of another thread which you can find here, go through this thread if you haven't already to learn the basics:

http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/

I've been playing around with this with zss and see some potential in these techniques but want to hear other peoples ideas.

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

Dash Dancing is just decently useful as a mind game in general so... not going to elaborate on specifics.

My least favorite thing about ZSS (besides her DAir) is her Fox Trot distance. Her start up goes so far that it's crazy awkward to me (I also play Palutena who has an incredibly short Fox Trot which makes Spacing with her about 10,000X easier).

Haven't invested any time in learning Perfect Pivot at all. I really should.

 

[David Viran]

Perfect pivot cancels Fox trot too which allows you to do anything out of it so it's very important.

 

[Chuva]

Foxtrot into a grab has become a favorite of mine. I've been catching people off guard because of the sudden big distance the trot covers and because you keep some of the trot's momentum during the start-up frames of the grab. Foxtrot into a grab is also good for hit-confirming from non-charged paralyzer hits

I've been testing pivot grabs and it really seems that pivot grab actually has slightly less range than the normal grab. Could anyone help confirm this?

 

[David Viran]

Yeah foxtrot and dash grab look pretty similar which can be very good for mixups. The pivot grab having less range wouldn't be all that unbelievable as that is the case for most characters.

 

[kyxsune]

I like using the pivot dance to boost grab, The distance it covers is crazy.
(pivot dances from this video)
Sadly, I't doesn't look like i have the hand speed to do a perfect pivot...

Stupid question, but can anyone post a video of a perfect pivot with ZSS?

I can do pivot dances, foxtrotting, and normal pivots, but the timing for perfect pivot eludes me...

 

[Chuva]

Yeah foxtrot and dash grab look pretty similar which can be very good for mixups. The pivot grab having less range wouldn't be all that unbelievable as that is the case for most characters.

Isn't it the other way around? I thought pivot grabs had more range than regular grabs. Unless it doesn't apply to tether grabs.

 

[David Viran]

I though it was that way in brawl but pivot grabbing got nerfed all around.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Foxtrot into Perfect Pivot into Grab results in a Dash Grab, which is preferable over a Pivot Grab because of the longer range.
If I got that right we need to stop shortly to get the Foxtrot -> Perfect Pivot but since ZSSamus' Dash has such a big range we hardly lose speed.
Edit: only if the range allows it of course.

 

[David Viran]

I like using the pivot dance to boost grab, The distance it covers is crazy.
(pivot dances from this video)
Sadly, I't doesn't look like i have the hand speed to do a perfect pivot...

Stupid question, but can anyone post a video of a perfect pivot with ZSS?

I can do pivot dances, foxtrotting, and normal pivots, but the timing for perfect pivot eludes me...

For perfect pivot just get used to flicking the stick lightly without dashing. That was what was hardest for me at least.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Edit: I get too excited for this stuff. Is it possible to flawlessly, without any lag at any point, transition from run into dash/foxtrot?

 

[David Viran]

Edit: I get too excited for this stuff. Is it possible to flawlessly, without any lag at any point, transition from run into dash/foxtrot?

Yes it is possible.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yes it is possible.

Any input hints? I can't do it without stopping shortly.

 

[David Viran]

I don't know what to say other than try to input the buttons faster.

 

[pichuthedk]

Fox trot in front of them to grounded b - reversed laser and laugh if they let go of shield or don't expect the grab follow up.

 

[David Viran]

This video has been floating around about perfect pivoting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0

 

[Remzi]

Yes it is possible.

This is incorrect. From a run, your only options are shield, skid, jump, turn, dash attack, dash grab, usmash, or special.

This is why fox trotting is useful to begin with, because its cancellable at each interval and allows you to circumvent the commitment of a run (at the cost of only being able to shield between trots).

 

[David Viran]

Whoops my bad. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Whoops my bad. I don't know what I was thinking.

You made me try FOR HOURS

Spoiler

No you didn't, everything is good.

Anyway, small hint for those having problems with doing it right.
Try to do a dsmash with the c stick after each PP. If it's a dash attack instead of a dsmash you flicked the stick too far/too slow on the way back.

 

[David Viran]

A retreating dsmash with perfect pivot is actually a really good option.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

If changing the looking direction after a PP wouldn't be so goddamn hard we would easily gain some better OOS options.
I really liked the punishes from the video 5 posts above me. Thing is we don't have smash or tilt that goes behind us as well aside from up smash and we don't need PP for that. ftilt works but that isn't exactly awesome. Fsmash could too.

Edit: Fsmash actually does work pretty well. OOS>PP>fsmash

 

[David Viran]

Utilt hits on both sides. That was used in the video too.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Utilt hits on both sides. That was used in the video too.

Totally forgot about utilt. Yeah that actually works great and has combo potential.

 

[David Viran]

Here is another perfect pivot video floating around the internet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ_ZzAvSFis&list=UU3SM8yOKKwU8PYqwsNP5rGA

 

[pichuthedk]

What about pp to sh falling up air combo starter?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What about pp to sh falling up air combo starter?

Takes years. SH falling uair is pretty slow. Also the distance you gain by PPing is redundant because you can just do that with the SH.
Or do you see something I'm overlooking here?

 

[pichuthedk]

I Donno just thinking of the slight illusion it sometimes puts people under ,I got the idea from delux's video where for a moment he was talking about using shield flash to make the opponent thing of something from sseeing the shield.

 

[M@v]

A retreating dsmash with perfect pivot is actually a really good option.

^This.

You can also Perfect pivot -> Fsmash/ftilt the direction you started your inital dash in to give that move extra range thanks to the pivot.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I feel like PPing is a bigger deal for ZSS than for other high tiers, simply because our neutral game isn't the best and we really need every option we can get.

 

[4EverSupport]

I know other people have asked but is there a compilation vid out there anywhere of all of this?

 

[DeLux]

I feel like PPing is a bigger deal for ZSS than for other high tiers, simply because our neutral game isn't the best and we really need every option we can get.

I'm not overly sold on its utility just yet since we don't have any particularly safe grounded options on shield in the boxing game. Been kind of meditating on it lately, but I'm not consistent enough on it yet to even integrate it against CPUs yet let alone against people, so I could be (and I hope I am) wrong

 

[pichuthedk]

I feel you bro but it's all about the random times you think about doing it.

damnit man if I could count the amount of times ive failed to do it in a match consistently and then the times where I random thought about doing it, much to my surprise people run into the Dsmash or just barely miss me..