Up-B lets understand this move

[Snowfin]

Hey guys, i was hoping someone could help me understand Up-B to the fullest (non custom)

I cant understand why the last hit of the up B sometimes hits and sometimes it doesnt. I used to think i had to be like "inside" of my opponent when doing the Up-B for it to hit, but that isnt true at all... Sometimes i get the whole up B to hit after doing a down throw and tech chasing my opponent, and in those situations i dont usually wait for me to be like overlaping the opponent to do the Up-B.

And then sometimes an opponent does a laggy move (best example, Mega Mans down tilt) which i shield and he is right there infront of me inside of my body... i punish with up b thinking it will hit fully and... the last hit misses.

Any ideas on this?

 

[Cr0wbaR]

As much as I know, it's not a true combo out of down throw. Your opponent can vector away from you and miss the last hit. It's not a bad move for For Glory, but come high level tournaments everyone will vector out of it.

I don't know of any testing of raw Up-Bs, do some testing on different characters, but preferably with friends and have them vector.

 

[Jaxas]

Hey guys, i was hoping someone could help me understand Up-B to the fullest (non custom)

I cant understand why the last hit of the up B sometimes hits and sometimes it doesnt. I used to think i had to be like "inside" of my opponent when doing the Up-B for it to hit, but that isnt true at all... Sometimes i get the whole up B to hit after doing a down throw and tech chasing my opponent, and in those situations i dont usually wait for me to be like overlaping the opponent to do the Up-B.

And then sometimes an opponent does a laggy move (best example, Mega Mans down tilt) which i shield and he is right there infront of me inside of my body... i punish with up b thinking it will hit fully and... the last hit misses.

Any ideas on this?

I'm pretty sure it's (unfortunately) just how the move works; it doesn't always chain into itself reliably, which is really too bad as it's one of ZSS' very few kill moves.

 

[DeLux]

This is just speculation on my part after doing some testing on buusuto kikku with Dakpo and then Fragger, but I think the multi-hit nature allows an opponent multiple chances to input a vector away an opponent, and I think the vector force of knock back is also augmented by an opponent's current momentum. Combine those two facts with the very specific and weak nature of the hitboxes on buusto kikku, it could explain why the move is seemingly situationally faulty, and why certain weights (aka launch resistance) are handled differently by the game engine as it might be a matter of a set knockback for various weights without much knockback growth.

If my speculation is correct, if you try to hit them as they are in knockback away from you after throwing/uairing them, you are more likely to connect the entire buusuto kikku if you hit them during the apex of the knock back where the opponent's momentum is the lowest, as opposed to the early parts of knockback. It might also account for the lower conversion rates on falling opponents, where I again would guess it might be advantageous for someone to input a vector downwards when hit by the early part of the move.

In the event my guess is a correct description on how the move works, we might start looking for ways to combo Uair > Peak of Uair knockback initiating buusuto kikku. Alternatively, frame trap them into landing on the ground or a platform into a buusuto kikku on landing lag.

As far as the OOS situation being discussed, it should be noted that an opponent perhaps can input a vector away, and buusuto kikku does have some limited horizontal mobility flight change someone can do, similar to changing the direction of dolphin slash for Marth or super jump with Mario.


At least, that's my speculative theory. I don't know for sure if it's true as the game mechanics are still under explored.

 

[meleebrawler]

To get the final hit, it would probably be best to not hit the opponent from
directly underneath. Basically hit with it in such a fashion
that ZSS is level with her opponent.

 

[Snowfin]

As much as I know, it's not a true combo out of down throw. Your opponent can vector away from you and miss the last hit. It's not a bad move for For Glory, but come high level tournaments everyone will vector out of it.

I don't know of any testing of raw Up-Bs, do some testing on different characters, but preferably with friends and have them vector.

I know that, thats why i am so confused. I said i tech chase my opponents with it after down throw, not that i combo them with it. Thats what confuses me the most... like for such a finicky move, i would expect that when i down throw them and tech chase them with Up-B, it will never ever hit fully (let alone actually catch them because, as you said, its not a combo).

The problem is... why the hell does it sometimes work when it like totally shouldnt (the weird down throw tech chase scenario). But then when it should like TOTALLY work (punishing someone pointblank out of shield when that someone is like so close to you that the hitboxes are almost overlapping) it doesnt. Like wtf i dont get it...

I just want to understand why it sometimes works and why it doesnt, so that we can implement the move better

 

[Cyko Melody]

If going for the kill, I find it easier to get the final hit in the animation rather all the hits, because, like you said, its unreliable when trying to get all the hits.

Maybe seeing the hitboxes would help?

 

[doodreally]

If you're trying to use the final hit of up b to ko its almost better to forward air or up air. Up b (as stated earlier) can be vectored out of due to multihit. so unless you're recovering or tech chasing where you're guaranteed to get the second kick, just up air or forward air. You can up b out of shield, however it's more effective to just grab...

 

[BraveFantasy]

Through extensive testing, with a lot of hit and miss, I think I've finally understood something very important about up b. It is a DI/VI mixup. If you up b without any input (aka neutral up b) the opponent is able to DI/VI backward and out of it. (If they DI/VI toward you or don't DI/VI at all they'll get hit.) If you up b and hold toward an opponent they can DI/VI toward you and slip out behind you. They will also slip out behind you if they don't DI/VI at all. (But if they DI/VI backward they'll get hit). And if you hold back after pressing up b you can catch an opponent trying to get out behind you, but depending on the character they'll fall out before last hit without having to DI/VI period. (This means that a sheik would slip out but someone big like bowser wouldn't unless they DI/VI away).

After I noticed this I have seen substantially improved success rates with up b. It's all about getting the reads. As for comboing dthrow-> up b, the situation is the same. Depending on how the opponent vectors after the initial hit determines if they escape, although you're on point about having to be right beside the opponent to start up b, whether it be on the ground or in the air.

tl;dr: Up b must be executed right next to the opponent. Up b is a DI/VI mixup where you have to have decent reads if you want to kill with it consistently.

Regardless of the fact it's a mixup, it is probably still our best kill move on stage.

 

[David Viran]

Ok here's what I got from that. If we get good reads on then we can get the last hit but I'm kinda confused on the last part with sheik. If they vector down into us then will they get out of the Last hit everytime?

 

[Jaxas]

Through extensive testing, with a lot of hit and miss, I think I've finally understood something very important about up b. It is a DI/VI mixup. If you up b without any input (aka neutral up b) the opponent is able to DI/VI backward and out of it. (If they DI/VI toward you or don't DI/VI at all they'll get hit.) If you up b and hold toward an opponent they can DI/VI toward you and slip out behind you. (But if they DI/VI backward or not at all they'll get hit). And if you hold back after pressing up b you can catch an opponent trying to get out behind you, but depending on the character they'll fall out before last hit without having to DI/VI period. (This means that a sheik would slip out but someone big like bowser wouldn't unless they DI/VI away).

After I noticed this I have seen substantially improved success rates with up b. It's all about getting the reads. As for comboing dthrow-> up b, the situation is the same. Depending on how the opponent vectors after the initial hit determines if they escape, although you're on point about having to be right beside the opponent to start up b, whether it be on the ground or in the air.

tl;dr: Up b must be executed right next to the opponent. Up b is a DI/VI mixup where you have to have decent reads if you want to kill with it consistently.

Regardless of the fact it's a mixup, it is probably still our best kill move on stage.

By in front/behind us, do you mean that this doesn't cover when people pop up too high above you to get hit by the final kick?

 

[Dakpo]

I think people are supposed to lean downward to get out

 

[BraveFantasy]

Correct. If they pop out above you it's because the positioning of the initial hit at startup was off. The sheik part is just saying that smaller characters can fall out of an up b angled backwards if they don't DI/VI towards us, but larger characters who don't DI/VI towards us may get hit by a backward angled up b anyway. As for vectoring downward, I'll have to do more testing. I haven't had a single person get out below me yet, so vectoring downwards may not be something to worry about. If anyone else has had someone get out of up b by vectoring downwards, please let me know what happened exactly.

 

[BraveFantasy]

This was an accidental post. Couldn't figure out how to delete. My bad xD

 

[Dakpo]

I'll have to do more testing. I haven't had a single person get out below me yet, so vectoring downwards may not be something to worry about. If anyone else has had someone get out of up b by vectoring downwards, please let me know what happened exactly.

Vectoring down will pop you out the top. would you mind testing it with someone

 

[BraveFantasy]

I'll do this this as soon as possible. I'll also try and figure out a countermeasure, but it may be a few days. Probably Tuesday is when I'll be able to figure this out.

 

[Remzi]

Vectoring down will pop you out the top. would you mind testing it with someone

Is it really that easy? If so thats a damn shame- its one of her best kill options by a long shot. So versatile.

 

[Dakpo]

still needs to be tested

 

[BraveFantasy]

Alright so I finally had a chance to test this out. And the result is that vectoring downwards does NOT allow the opponent to pop up the top.

I'm almost positive now that the only way the opponent can pop out the top is when we have bad positioning on our up b startup. If anyone else has anything they would like tested just let me know and I'll get to it asap.

 

[Remzi]

Alright so I finally had a chance to test this out. And the result is that vectoring downwards does NOT allow the opponent to pop up the top.

I'm almost positive now that the only way the opponent can pop out the top is when we have bad positioning on our up b startup. If anyone else has anything they would like tested just let me know and I'll get to it asap.

Thats a HUGE sigh of relief. I really hope you're right!

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I've never had anyone pop out of the top when I've had the time to line it up properly, i.e. standing right next to them, so I'm inclined to believe the last hit is either guaranteed or a VI mix-up if the first hit connects optimally.
Landing up-B in the air is considerably harder and can only really be done reliably after an airdodge read and with very good timing. Still, it's stylish as heck when it works.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Small characters generally bounce out with up VI in my experience, but large characters like Ganondorf get completely bodied by it.

 

[Jaxas]

I've heard that this connects much more reliably with the v1.04 patch, is that correct?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yup! It's so much easier to get the sweet spot, hit them at almost anywhere with up B will chain them to the last hit. A really big buff to her killing potential.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

So with the newest patch considered i still don`t understand the up-b.
I was thinking it's safe, when the enemy is "inside" ZSS, but sometimes it still doesn`t work and the last hit doesn't connect..
At the moment i have the feeling, that it doesn't even matter, from which position you use the Up-B. Sometimes it is successfull, sometimes not.

Thoughts?

Well..

By the way: Greninja can ALWAYS get out of Fsmash und Up-B with his Side-B, so we have two kill moves less against him.

 

[David Viran]

So with the newest patch considered i still don`t understand the up-b.
I was thinking it's safe, when the enemy is "inside" ZSS, but sometimes it still doesn`t work and the last hit doesn't connect..
At the moment i have the feeling, that it doesn't even matter, from which position you use the Up-B. Sometimes it is successfull, sometimes not.

Thoughts?

Well..

By the way: Greninja can ALWAYS get out of Fsmash und Up-B with his Side-B, so we have two kill moves less against him.

Um greninjas side special thing got patched in the update to. When you use up special on the ground being inside of them I don't feel is a good position I like to be a little farther away. Positioning is the key to up special.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Greninja can still get out of it.

I think, it's not THAT simple. The positioning is important, but probably it also depends which character Zamus is facing.

 

[David Viran]

He can duck under the second hit if the first hit hits to far away but that's only way he can get out of it.

They can try to DI up special but you also have control over up special so you can catch there DI but being inside them is not ideal. On the lighter characters, of course, you have to do this heavy characters always get hit by it.

 

[dawgbowl]

I've had my best success with this attack by DSmash/Charged Stun then just run right up and Up+B.

I understand that there are more desirable follow-ups typically to a stun, but if they are on the ground when I connect with the two attacks above, and I immediately go in to up+b, it seems far less likely my opponent gets out of it because I can position myself virtually inside of them (rest/luigipunch) and hopefully connect with every hit.

Hopefully we can uncover some more concrete information on this amazing (best?) kill option.

 

[David Viran]

The kill potential for up special is weird with DI involved because it will never kill off the top with good DI but it kills off the sides super early.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I've actually gotten a screen KO off the top from up b on a jiggs (the KO where the character bounces against the screen. Is there a proper name for this?) Pretty funny actually. And it wasn't the final hit of up b that did it, but the second to last. I had a weird startup angle causing them to bounce out. They weren't DI'ing properly, and poof. Jiggs disappeared into the sky. Very interesting kill, and I still don't really understand why it happened, but it did. And there's a proper way to DI up b to live from the middle of FD on middle weight characters up until like 100. Not exactly sure how it's done, but my friend does it consistently with sheik. Unless you mean that 100% is super early.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I've actually gotten a screen KO off the top from up b on a jiggs (the KO where the character bounces against the screen. Is there a proper name for this?)

No, there is not, unless you want to come up with another name for it

Spoiler

Sounds better than 4th wall KO, IMO

Pretty funny actually. And it wasn't the final hit of up b that did it, but the second to last. I had a weird startup angle causing them to bounce out. They weren't DI'ing properly, and poof. Jiggs disappeared into the sky. Very interesting kill, and I still don't really understand why it happened, but it did. And there's a proper way to DI up b to live from the middle of FD on middle weight characters up until like 100. Not exactly sure how it's done, but my friend does it consistently with sheik. Unless you mean that 100% is super early.

Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game, so at around 100% and higher, the UpB can, indeed, kill a Jiggly near the top blastzone if the Jiggly doesn't DI properly.

Also, Jiggs could've survived with proper DI, so it's basically a case of Jigglypuff KOing itself with Zamus's foot.

 

[pichuthedk]

Honestly with vectoring seemingly non existent this move feels like it almost always connects if your in the middle of them., I've given my zss some time off (3 years of tournaments and getting bodied she deserves some vacation time) while I work on my fundamentals and consistency.

My friend has taken up zss and I find my self unable to really get out of it ironically.

But when I am zss doing it to people I will only have them escape if I do not control it properly by holding in more or out more messing up my input is the only consistent reason they get out IMO.
seems very gaurennteed aside from supper tiny floaty chars which is like 5-8/53 characters.

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

i may just have good understanding of this move and were it fully hits when i start it,but i have only missed it a few times.every time i miss is because my opponent was a little above or below me.i only usually try it when i'm level with whoever i'm against

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

i may just have good understanding of this move and were it fully hits when i start it,but i have only missed it a few times.every time i miss is because my opponent was a little above or below me.i only usually try it when i'm level with whoever i'm against

This is due your opponent's damage allowing it to escape the move using its own knockback, because all of the upB's hits have knockback scaling. This is perfectly normal (unless Sakurai and Namco wanted to give the "boost" set knockback). This also means the move is no longer a viable KO move if you opponent has too much damage (I think it's around 120% for most of the cast)

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

This is due your opponent's damage allowing it to escape the move using its own knockback, because all of the upB's hits have knockback scaling. This is perfectly normal (unless Sakurai and Namco wanted to give the "boost" set knockback). This also means the move is no longer a viable KO move if you opponent has too much damage (I think it's around 120% for most of the cast)

i noticed that while practicing on cpu's.i only try it when there less than around 120%.my favorite thing i've done with up b is once when i ko'd a charizard when he was at 69%,i did it out of down throw.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

i noticed that while practicing on cpu's.i only try it when there less than around 120%.my favorite thing i've done with up b is once when i ko'd a charizard when he was at 69%,i did it out of down throw.

You can get good early kill combos with up b. Like dthrow> uair> uair> upspecial. Kills DK at 70 on smashville for example.

 

[pichuthedk]

Man ìm glad all this is consistent with my findings , I'll just solice in that down smash -> fox trot past them -> jump cancel up b so they fly into it as she's following through trick i mentioned in some oyher thread , it's very satisfying xD.

 

[David Viran]

Man ìm glad all this is consistent with my findings , I'll just solice in that down smash -> fox trot past them -> jump cancel up b so they fly into it as she's following through trick i mentioned in some oyher thread , it's very satisfying xD.

You know nairo actually did that on stream not to long ago.

 

[pichuthedk]

You know nairo actually did that on stream not to long ago.

That's makes me feel sexy because I've been doing that since 3ds xD.
T.T there is hope for me yet.
granted I've only really tried for it during the early versions when it was easier to get out.