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Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

MasterCheef

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Fighter's pass 3 , assuming it gets shown on 10/4 , might wind up being better than , all the current third party characters combined.

Big reveals for SSBU DLC , historically are in October. Steve , & , Sora were both revealed in October

2019 had 2 reveals in the fall. , Banjo Kazooie , & Terry , September & November
 

ProtoAdaptor

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Bass shoulda been an echo fighter. Him or Proto Man. Maybe even Roll
eh i feel like bass could've been a lot more unique, especially given they've had different movesets whenever they're both playable. proto man would've been a kickass echo, though. and i feel roll would've been more melee oriented- think mega man powered up
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
There's nothing remotely scummy about it. It's properly giving the fanbase(which is anyone who has interest in the games) a way to express their desires. Besides that, it actually does what other ones don't do, ask for their input on how they want a character to be implemented, meaning it provided an actual useful set of feedback.
They're making money off of these suggestions though, through game sales, DLC, Amiibos, even hardware sales in some cases - it's unethical to ask fans to give market research data and not give the people who submitted these ideas a small piece of the pie, regardless of whether their ideas are used or not. Typically, with market research like surveys and focus groups, being paid is and should be the incentive, not "making your dreams come true" or whatever pretentious BS you want to spin the ballot as - because it's not "making dreams come true", it's market research in the creation of a product, a company specifically requesting you to inform them of what would make you buy their product and providing an official platform for you to do so, not just some simple fanmail or social media posts that people decided to send on their own.

...Because they're godawful to find details on. You can't find ones these days that don't have extremely limited userpools(meaning they barely scratch the surface of who actually buys Smash), often full of random people who don't know what they want, does not adhere to any actual rules(or rules that don't follow what Nintendo has any interest in). The Smash Ballot appealed to far more people being more worldwide, and had a much bigger pool of participants.
In the case of the first one... Twitter exists, as does Reddit. If anything you'd get better data from there than pre-centralisation Smashboards since casual fans would be posting there too. The Smash Ballot didn't follow rules either - it very clearly only says "favorite video game character". Nothing about Kratos being off-limits or whatever, despite what a lot of people were saying at the time - every single Smash rule except for "must be a video game character" is a fan creation
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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They're making money off of these suggestions though, through game sales, DLC, amiibo, even hardware sales in some cases - it's unethical to ask fans to give market research data and not give the people who submitted these ideas a small piece of the pie, regardless of whether their ideas are used or not. Typically, with market research like surveys and focus groups, being paid is and should be the incentive, not "making your dreams come true" or whatever pretentious BS you want to spin the ballot as - because it's not "making dreams come true", it's market research in the creation of a product, a company specifically requesting you to inform them of what would make you buy their product and providing an official platform for you to do so, not just some simple fanmail or social media posts that people decided to send on their own.
I don't see any issue with any of how it was handled bar at worst slightly bad wording(Bayonetta's situation is people misreading their actual wording to infer something else. They didn't say she was chosen cause of the ballot at any point. People misinterpreted that entirely. There's a reason they didn't say that in itself). The actual ballot was purely write-in, and far better than trying to gather random data, and it was controlled and had what they want.

Besides that, unethical to use data that was meant for gathering information and... using it to see what fans want? When the whole ballot was about what fans want? That's twisted logic. It's exactly what it was always going to be. None of this is rocket science. If you couldn't guess then that it wasn't a "true winner" crap, you hard knew the second multiple characters were chosen cause of the ballot. The only valid point is that the US translation wasn't as forthcoming about it being used for future Smash products. And them not using the data to see how it could help with their other games is borderline stupid. Good thing they're not, because that's throwing away a lot of good data for no logical reason. There is no ethical problem here. You shouldn't ever vote on anything then, if you're that paranoid. Cause no matter what data you give, it will be used somewhere extra to help figure out potential product or otherwise. That's how everything in this world is. We were at least told this too.

In the case of the first one... Twitter exists, as does Reddit. If anything you'd get better data from there than pre-centralisation Smashboards since casual fans would be posting there too. The Smash Ballot didn't follow rules either - it very clearly only says "favorite video game character". Nothing about Kratos being off-limits or whatever, despite what a lot of people were saying at the time - every single Smash rule except for "must be a video game character" is a fan creation
They're all horrible places that are impossible to sift through with no self-control. Nah, being controlled was ten times better than trying to find places like that. Way better. At least they got exactly what they wanted, and as it's their information they want, they found a way that actually worked right.

None of those places will ever work as a proper polling, as it specifically had a spot for every piece of information they wanted, and could properly discard anything that doesn't work(like non-video game characters, their only rule). The only good those places would be is for advertising the poll. You vastly overestimate how easy it is to sift through those places for a tiny bit of real information. And most of it doesn't pertain to what they want.

Twitter, besides, is doing very poorly and was not as good of a place as you think it is, even back then. Social Media places were outright crapholes for ages. Never mind many of them don't allow people to actually delve into moveset ideas, just minor "ooh, this could be cool", which isn't helpful. Their purpose was not just to gather names, but to see actual specific details, including design ideas, movesets, and even how people in particular are interested in a character(like what role they play). They even asked for what game they're from, not just the franchise, so they're able to tell very particular things, like which version of a character is more favorable. This cannot be gotten from random Social Media because it ultimately does not have the details they are looking for. At the end of the day, they serve no purpose beyond being a good advertising spot at best.

not for long
And even then, trying to find information on there is laughable. Hashtags cannot be on most posts due to a massive tweet limit(even before Musk took over), it requires multiple tweets to put any ideas down, and it didn't, as I noted above, give them a lot of key information that helps figure out things. It was never a good idea to find random information. Search engines are quite bad these days, outside of finding hard information(of course, that's still just as limited, since many things have yet to be discovered or documented). They're still a crapshoot.
 

Ze Diglett

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They're all horrible places that are impossible to sift through with no self-control. Nah, being controlled was ten times better than trying to find places like that. Way better. At least they got exactly what they wanted, and as it's their information they want, they found a way that actually worked right.

None of those places will ever work as a proper polling, as it specifically had a spot for every piece of information they wanted, and could properly discard anything that doesn't work(like non-video game characters, their only rule). The only good those places would be is for advertising the poll. You vastly overestimate how easy it is to sift through those places for a tiny bit of real information. And most of it doesn't pertain to what they want.

Twitter, besides, is doing very poorly and was not as good of a place as you think it is, even back then. Social Media places were outright crapholes for ages. Never mind many of them don't allow people to actually delve into moveset ideas, just minor "ooh, this could be cool", which isn't helpful. Their purpose was not just to gather names, but to see actual specific details, including design ideas, movesets, and even how people in particular are interested in a character(like what role they play). They even asked for what game they're from, not just the franchise, so they're able to tell very particular things, like which version of a character is more favorable. This cannot be gotten from random Social Media because it ultimately does not have the details they are looking for. At the end of the day, they serve no purpose beyond being a good advertising spot at best.

And even then, trying to find information on there is laughable. Hashtags cannot be on most posts due to a massive tweet limit(even before Musk took over), it requires multiple tweets to put any ideas down, and it didn't, as I noted above, give them a lot of key information that helps figure out things. It was never a good idea to find random information. Search engines are quite bad these days, outside of finding hard information(of course, that's still just as limited, since many things have yet to be discovered or documented). They're still a crapshoot.
While it's true that you won't get any hard numbers by crawling social media, it's still probably the easiest way of finding out what's popular on a broad scale. They may not be able to tell that Sora is categorically the most requested Smash fighter (among a sample size of people obsessed enough to fill out an official poll, anyway), but they would be able to tell what characters are being talked about for better and for worse. You didn't need a poll to know that people wanted K. Rool back in Smash 4 or that they were bummed when Geno got Mii Costume'd; if you were at all engaged in the Smash community in those days, it was practically unavoidable. Gauging interest like this is basically what social media's good for from a marketing standpoint (and advertising, as you said), but Nintendo would rather set up a poll than even take a glance at their community.
In my book, it's mainly an issue of being in-touch with your game's fanbase, something Nintendo is notoriously bad about. Lots of games, fighting games especially, and companies hire community managers to accomplish the exact goal of having their finger on the pulse of player feedback, and the game itself usually ends up better for it. Nintendo, meanwhile, is at best ignorant of what the Smash community wants and at worst just doesn't care (see: #FixUltimateOnline).
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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While it's true that you won't get any hard numbers by crawling social media, it's still probably the easiest way of finding out what's popular on a broad scale. They may not be able to tell that Sora is categorically the most requested Smash fighter (among a sample size of people obsessed enough to fill out an official poll, anyway), but they would be able to tell what characters are being talked about for better and for worse. You didn't need a poll to know that people wanted K. Rool back in Smash 4 or that they were bummed when Geno got Mii Costume'd; if you were at all engaged in the Smash community in those days, it was practically unavoidable. Gauging interest like this is basically what social media's good for from a marketing standpoint (and advertising, as you said), but Nintendo would rather set up a poll than even take a glance at their community.
In my book, it's mainly an issue of being in-touch with your game's fanbase, something Nintendo is notoriously bad about. Lots of games, fighting games especially, and companies hire community managers to accomplish the exact goal of having their finger on the pulse of player feedback, and the game itself usually ends up better for it. Nintendo, meanwhile, is at best ignorant of what the Smash community wants and at worst just doesn't care (see: #FixUltimateOnline).
It's not a "poll" or a "popularity contest".

It was purely to gather hard information in an organized manner. You won't find that on any general website because sifting through a crapload of data is next to impossible in a timely manner. The only things that actually could get their attention would be at most directly contacting them on something like Twitter, and that's a crapshoot because they're just general employees posting planned stuff, not an actual company to talk to.

None of these Social Media are organized in any reasonable manner to allow them to get the information they want. Being popular isn't enough. As I said before, the details are more important than the name alone. What particular games, designs, movesets, all in the manner they want it being presented as. Without sifting through billions of pages hoping for the right tool. It's just the better way to do it, organized. Which led to a far better game.

Nintendo doesn't care much about online anyway. No amount of criticism will fix it. They're blatantly behind the times in that regard and any hopes of change is laughable. No amount of social media is going to change that. They aren't taking random suggestions in that way. They always controlled their own polls, ballots, popularity contests, etc. And that makes sense. They have a very laser-focused way to look at it and kept it that way, and still do. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it realistic? No.

The problem with the logic of "them being bummed" is that it's the minority opinion. Most people were massively downright happy to see their favorites make a playable appearance of sorts. Social Media's trends wouldn't even tell them why the oddity of the costume designs wasn't pleasing. They only would get two messages; "this isn't good" or "this is good". Trends aren't any form of criticism to consider. they're minor phrases that barely give an idea of what's going on. As I spoke of before, they needed actual specific details. And as also noted, they'd have to sift through tons of odd information(coupled with quite a few tweets/posts that will have tons of horrid grammar, spelling, capitalization, etc., which makes it more difficult to read) that might not even make sense. With tons of contradictory statements, finding any criticism among it that is constructive and readable is hard alone, especially with a language barrier to deal with at times. ...So instead they went with a controlled write-in tool that required particular information they want. Something trends are not capable of doing in any remote fashion(nor are they meant to. They're eye-catchers, not actual information pieces).

Ultimately, it wasn't feasible to look for polls with zero details, trends that don't offer real information, or sift through billions of posts to only find, if lucky, maybe hundreds of useful data. Fans don't organize this kind of data much at all, so it's not like it's super well known and easy to find. And even then, said data is not organized in a special way that Nintendo wanted it. It doesn't follow any of their rules, and they likely were looking more for themes and ideas, not just movesets(which most do not know how a moveset needs to flow, too many focusing on just "being canon" at best. So that makes them even weaker ideas to be inspired by). What did a Write-In Only Ballot accomplish? Everything useful.
 

fogbadge

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While Smashville and KOF Stadium are the more obvious picks, I think Temple forms would be really cool, given that's the most popular casual stage. A lot of stages would look really cool with the Temple layout, and the ones that don't would look really funny.
well i'm gonna spend a while picturing each of them laid out like that
 

Quillion

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In my book, it's mainly an issue of being in-touch with your game's fanbase, something Nintendo is notoriously bad about. Lots of games, fighting games especially, and companies hire community managers to accomplish the exact goal of having their finger on the pulse of player feedback, and the game itself usually ends up better for it. Nintendo, meanwhile, is at best ignorant of what the Smash community wants and at worst just doesn't care (see: #FixUltimateOnline).
Being in touch with a community is a really double-edged sword though. It can very well lead to stagnation and lack of surprise if you're just giving things what people want.

If the Zelda team was "in touch with the community" circa BotW, they would've just slapped an open world onto the classic Zelda formula and called it a day instead of really experimenting with how to work within it.

Also frankly, the Smash community as a whole: competitive players, character speculators, casuals-with-items, story players in general is not unified enough to have a community manager by any stretch.
 
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TheLastMaverickHunter

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oh my goodness the mega man main is here are they gonna complain about about mega man?

god i just wish we had more. even the music choices are pathetic. no ending themes? even though the mm2 and mm3 endings are iconic? NO FRIEND OR FOE???? WHY IS THE MM4 MEDLEY ONLY TWO SONGS

and jesus, one fighter? come on, give us bass. give him a moveset based on mm&b/mm10 weapons. since that's what he'd have access to. those characters dont get any rep via mega man's movesets after all. or maybe one of the zx protags, with their gimmick being the biometals? or hell, give us a netnavi. ANYTHING. MEGA MAN HAS HUNDREDS OF CHARACTERS AND YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WITH THEM. at least give us proto man as an assist trophy. or even just put his theme in. not even remixed. please

and Hoo Boy do i have some words against mega man's final smash. its just. its so nothing. what? what is happening. give us super adaptor mega man. or maybe his double buster shot from super adventure rockman? anything that has more ground in canon. the busters dont even shoot lazers (ok geo mega could shoot lazers for all that i care, i do not care about star force). also why black hole bomb? thats the single mm9 rep in the whole game why is it in the final smash
Agreed. I never liked how the NES games make up the majority of his moves and songs, compared how little representation the rest of the series gets.
 
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Quillion

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Idk how “unpopular” this is, necessarily, but I think the next game should make it so that free fall is removed from all up specials, with the new trade off being that you can’t use them twice in a row.
That'll certainly make them better anti-air and combo finishers.
----
Copying myself from the Unpopular Gaming Opinions thread on another forum:

The wide variance in stuff like movement speeds, attack speeds, combo ability, and (as of late) mechanics in Smash is dumb honestly. It's like if a DMC or Bayonetta game had a weapon/character that plays like a Dark Souls Ultra Greatsword or if a game like MvC had a character that can't air combo but instead can kill an opponent in a few hits like in Samurai Shodown.

At the risk of sounding like I want homogeneity, I think the range of these different "speeds" should be reduced so that every character feels good instead of some feeling fast and fluid and others feeling too sluggish.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Regardless of if discourse toxicity has increased or decreased or if it will have a positive effect on Smash itself in practice, I actually think Sakurai stating Smash to be a "celebration of gaming history" has been a positive on the actual characters being discussed in Smash speculation, Smash wishlists are way more diverse now than they were in the 3DS/Wii U days.



Global Smash Roster does have a few issues as a comparison (It's been updated for years rather than a timed poll, fluctuated in popularity, and I've heard the TF2 characters were added through brigading) but ultimately you can still paint a clear picture of how Smash speculation has changed from it (hell, even being added through brigade doesn't change the fact that characters from a Western PC game got so high) - though I think my biggest surprise looking at this is how much has stayed the same. Isaac and Dixie are the only characters from outside the early 2010s flash in the pan period who really lost out (and even then they're just one and two rows respectively below where I cut the screenshot off). Even Conker, a character who is basically a mascot for Smash requests that have been rendered obsolete by COGH on the profile post side of the site, wasn't hit too hard looking a little later into the poll. If the Chrome T-Rex and Red Angry Bird can outrank Krystal and Wonder-Red, I think that's a good sign that Smash fans are more open now.

Now I think about it, I'm not even sure of the origins of that image on the left, fabricated Smash poll graphic have happened before.
Video contains swearing and a slur in a screencapped comment
 
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Opossum

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Regardless of if discourse toxicity has increased or decreased or if it will have a positive effect on Smash itself in practice, I actually think Sakurai stating Smash to be a "celebration of gaming history" has been a positive on the actual characters being discussed in Smash speculation, Smash wishlists are way more diverse now than they were in the 3DS/Wii U days.



Global Smash Roster does have a few issues as a comparison (It's been updated for years rather than a timed poll, fluctuated in popularity, and I've heard the TF2 characters were added through brigading) but ultimately you can still paint a clear picture of how Smash speculation has changed from it (hell, even being added through brigade doesn't change the fact that characters from a Western PC game got so high) - though I think my biggest surprise looking at this is how much has stayed the same. Isaac and Dixie are the only characters from outside the early 2010s flash in the pan period who really lost out (and even then they're just one and two rows respectively below where I cut the screenshot off). Even Conker, a character who is basically a mascot for Smash requests that have been rendered obsolete by COGH on the profile post side of the site, wasn't hit too hard looking a little later into the poll. If the Chrome T-Rex and Red Angry Bird can outrank Krystal and Wonder-Red, I think that's a good sign that Smash fans are more open now.

Now I think about it, I'm not even sure of the origins of that image on the left, fabricated Smash poll graphic have happened before.
Video contains swearing and a slur in a screencapped comment
The pie chart is from Source Gaming iirc. That's the usual format they used for their polls back in the ballot days.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
I know I'm a bit of a broken record with the "Modern Smash is a giant marketing campaign" takes, but I think the "must've been on a Nintendo console" fan rule is very likely real, or at least used as a loose guideline, but not a creative decision and simply a financial one. (either that or a "maximizing hype" decision, but those are basically the same thing in any situation not involving a recent game release)
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
It's weird that Morshu/King Harkinian isn't taken seriously in Smash discussion, specifically on the "Nintendo All-Stars" side. The CD-i games (and the weird 90s outsourced/multimedia stuff in general) are about as big - if not bigger - a part of not just Nintendo's history, but also their fandom, as Nintendo's work with Rare and Square. Fleeting, but left a major impact, expressed by fans through fan content.
Scrolled down to the first relevant non-playlist video on "most viewed". Sorted from least views to most.
Screenshot 2023-10-10 122653.png
Screenshot 2023-10-09 193752.png
Screenshot 2023-10-09 193725.png
Screenshot 2023-10-10 122909.png

I totally get not liking the idea on its individual merits (limited moveset potential without creative liberties, not liking the character design, general COGH vs. NAS divide, overlap with characters like Anna) (this isn't a "Morshu should be in Smash" post as much as a "Why is Morshu not treated as a serious pick?" post), and I totally understand that he isn't likely with his dubious legal status and Nintendo's reluctance to acknowledge outsourced content, but brushing him aside as "just a meme" is equally as dumb as it is for Waluigi. Yeah, people like him as a joke, but it's not like humor is an "invalid emotion" or anything, they ultimately still like Morshu - there's an interesting quote on this sort of thing from Shrek Retold director Grant Duffrin that I think sums up the "It's just a meme" argument.
"I have no idea if it's possible to like something ironically. It's like, could you enjoy ice cream ironically? Could you eat ice cream as a joke?"

I guess it's more a symptom of Smash (and general gaming) fandom's wider issue of anti-bad-game bias than anything Morshu-specific, where a game's quality is used to determine its "worthiness" and any positive cultural impact or good ideas get completely ignored, but still.
 
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fogbadge

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It's weird that Morshu/King Harkinian isn't taken seriously in Smash discussion, specifically on the "Nintendo All-Stars" side. The CD-i games (and the weird 90s outsourced/multimedia stuff in general) are about as big - if not bigger - a part of not just Nintendo's history, but also their fandom, as Nintendo's work with Rare and Square. Fleeting, but left a major impact, expressed by fans through fan content.
Scrolled down to the first relevant non-playlist video on "most viewed". Sorted from least views to most.
View attachment 379059View attachment 379036View attachment 379035View attachment 379060

I totally get not liking the idea on its individual merits (limited moveset potential without creative liberties, not liking the character design, general COGH vs. NAS divide, overlap with characters like Anna) (this isn't a "Morshu should be in Smash" post as much as a "Why is Morshu not treated as a serious pick?" post), and I totally understand that he isn't likely with his dubious legal status and Nintendo's reluctance to acknowledge outsourced content, but brushing him aside as "just a meme" is equally as dumb as it is for Waluigi. Yeah, people like him as a joke, but it's not like humor is an "invalid emotion" or anything, they ultimately still like Morshu - there's an interesting quote on this sort of thing from Shrek Retold director Grant Duffrin that I think sums up the "It's just a meme" argument.
"I have no idea if it's possible to like something ironically. It's like, could you enjoy ice cream ironically? Could you eat ice cream as a joke?"

I guess it's more a symptom of Smash (and general gaming) fandom's wider issue of anti-bad-game bias than anything Morshu-specific, where a game's quality is used to determine its "worthiness" and any positive cultural impact or good ideas get completely ignored, but still.
I think we’ve got to consider the fact that maybe it’s the meme people like rather the character. We know that waluigi is loved as a character beyond his memes. I seem to recall you talking in the past about what a big part of ytp he was which I think means that while he originated in gaming he’s better known for being part internet culture. Perhaps then people forget he’s from a game?

or perhaps the explanation is people simply don’t want him. The smash fandom doesn’t seem to care who is and isn’t impossible considering how often they still ask for goku. They might not talk about him cause they don’t want to
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Looking back, I think instead of swimming and drowning, stages with water should've only had the water naturally reduce your gravity.
They kinda did that in NASB 1 - the Teeter-Totter Gulch sand, Powdered Toast Trouble milk, and Double Dare slime all reduce your gravity and give you unlimited jumps until you escape it. It's very fun for sharking on DD especially.
 

Lenidem

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It's weird that Morshu/King Harkinian isn't taken seriously in Smash discussion, specifically on the "Nintendo All-Stars" side. The CD-i games (and the weird 90s outsourced/multimedia stuff in general) are about as big - if not bigger - a part of not just Nintendo's history, but also their fandom, as Nintendo's work with Rare and Square. Fleeting, but left a major impact, expressed by fans through fan content.
Scrolled down to the first relevant non-playlist video on "most viewed". Sorted from least views to most.
View attachment 379059View attachment 379036View attachment 379035View attachment 379060

I totally get not liking the idea on its individual merits (limited moveset potential without creative liberties, not liking the character design, general COGH vs. NAS divide, overlap with characters like Anna) (this isn't a "Morshu should be in Smash" post as much as a "Why is Morshu not treated as a serious pick?" post), and I totally understand that he isn't likely with his dubious legal status and Nintendo's reluctance to acknowledge outsourced content, but brushing him aside as "just a meme" is equally as dumb as it is for Waluigi. Yeah, people like him as a joke, but it's not like humor is an "invalid emotion" or anything, they ultimately still like Morshu - there's an interesting quote on this sort of thing from Shrek Retold director Grant Duffrin that I think sums up the "It's just a meme" argument.
"I have no idea if it's possible to like something ironically. It's like, could you enjoy ice cream ironically? Could you eat ice cream as a joke?"

I guess it's more a symptom of Smash (and general gaming) fandom's wider issue of anti-bad-game bias than anything Morshu-specific, where a game's quality is used to determine its "worthiness" and any positive cultural impact or good ideas get completely ignored, but still.
I never played those games, but most people who have - almost all of them, it seems - consider them very bad. Maybe that's the big difference between him and Waluigi.
 

Schnee117

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Morshu isn't seriously considered because he is quite literally just a meme character (the Waluigi comparison is extremely dishonest).
Take the memes away and Morshu is absolutely nothing. No one would care who he is without the memes, he's just a merchant from some very bad games. Add to that the fact that Zelda's character representation still hasn't gone past the Triforce Trio and you have a perfect mix of why precisely no rational person is seriously considering Morshu for Smash.

Congrats you finally got a Zelda character that doesn't have the Triforce.
It's the ****ing meme dude that comes from awful games that barely anyone played and not someone that people actually genuinely give a **** about from games that they actually like. This isn't rocket science, it's incredibly simple unless you get off on being contrarian for the hell of it.

if Smash had anti-bad game bias we wouldn't have Other M or XC2 or insert game you don't like here content anyway
 

Wario Wario Wario

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Morshu isn't seriously considered because he is quite literally just a meme character (the Waluigi comparison is extremely dishonest).
Take the memes away and Morshu is absolutely nothing. No one would care who he is without the memes, he's just a merchant from some very bad games. Add to that the fact that Zelda's character representation still hasn't gone past the Triforce Trio and you have a perfect mix of why precisely no rational person is seriously considering Morshu for Smash.

Congrats you finally got a Zelda character that doesn't have the Triforce.
It's the *ing meme dude that comes from awful games that barely anyone played and not someone that people actually genuinely give a * about from games that they actually like. This isn't rocket science, it's incredibly simple unless you get off on being contrarian for the hell of it.

if Smash had anti-bad game bias we wouldn't have Other M or XC2 or insert game you don't like here content anyway
Can you please explain why "meme picks" are bad? All a meme is is a shared emotional response to a single thing as being funny, it's no different from a bunch of people simultaneously finding Ridley scary or Banjo nostalgic. At the end of the day, liking Morshu "ironically" is just liking Morshu.

Also, the fact that so much Morshu fan content is out there by default disproves the notion that "Nobody genuinely gives a **** about him"
 
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FazDude

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Morshu isn't seriously considered because he is quite literally just a meme character (the Waluigi comparison is extremely dishonest).
Take the memes away and Morshu is absolutely nothing. No one would care who he is without the memes, he's just a merchant from some very bad games. Add to that the fact that Zelda's character representation still hasn't gone past the Triforce Trio and you have a perfect mix of why precisely no rational person is seriously considering Morshu for Smash.

Congrats you finally got a Zelda character that doesn't have the Triforce.
It's the *ing meme dude that comes from awful games that barely anyone played and not someone that people actually genuinely give a * about from games that they actually like. This isn't rocket science, it's incredibly simple unless you get off on being contrarian for the hell of it.

if Smash had anti-bad game bias we wouldn't have Other M or XC2 or insert game you don't like here content anyway
I do agree that we should really get more non-Triforce characters before Morshu (there would be riots in the streets otherwise), but I wouldn't be opposed to getting him at some point after.

That said, I think Morshu is on his own tier of "meme pick" than someone like Red, Freddy, Waluigi, or other characters of that nature where the appeal is considerably more ironic with him while the others enjoy genuine support from fans of those franchises/characters. That isn't entirely meritless, and Morshu does have genuine fans, but I think it is a big distinguishing factor.
 
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Laniv

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The thing about Morshu, to me at least, is "what do he have to offer that other characters, such as Beedle or Ravio or even Tingle, do not?" The answer is... not a lot. Ravio has built a moveset for himself in Hyrule Warriors, while Beedle and Tingle, other shopkeeper characters, are much more recurring, with Tingle getting his own spin-off series and higher popularity in Japan (he does still have that, right?) And that's without counting the other CD-i characters, like Lupay, Harlequin, or (heaven forbid) the CD-i incarnations of the Triforce trio. Morshu really can't stack up.
 

Lenidem

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Can you please explain why "meme picks" are bad? All a meme is is a shared emotional response to a single thing as being funny, it's no different from a bunch of people simultaneously finding Ridley scary or Banjo nostalgic. At the end of the day, liking Morshu "ironically" is just liking Morshu.

Also, the fact that so much Morshu fan content is out there by default disproves the notion that "Nobody genuinely gives a **** about him"
In French, we say "the better jokes are the shortest". Meaning, yeah, it might be fun to imagine X, W or Z in Smash. But the nonsense has to stop at some point.

And if your main argument is "some people actually want him", it can be said for basically any character, from video games or from anything else.

As for the "bad game biais", it leaves me flabbergasted. I genuinely don't know what to say. "This is bad and it is not rewarded" seems like... totally normal.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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In French, we say "the better jokes are the shortest". Meaning, yeah, it might be fun to imagine X, W or Z in Smash. But the nonsense has to stop at some point.

And if your main argument is "some people actually want him", it can be said for basically any character, from video games or from anything else.

As for the "bad game biais", it leaves me flabbergasted. I genuinely don't know what to say. "This is bad and it is not rewarded" seems like... totally normal.
Smash Ultimate’s whole tagline was about being the “ultimate celebration of gaming history” and honestly to suggest only games that have stood the test of time, or weren’t ever bad at all, are worthy of being honoured seems like a really dishonest way of looking at history. The CD-i games have had a huge influence on video game culture and even just the existence of Arzette proves that at least some people have some attatchment to the aesthetic and content of the games.
 

Lenidem

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Smash Ultimate’s whole tagline was about being the “ultimate celebration of gaming history” and honestly to suggest only games that have stood the test of time, or weren’t ever bad at all, are worthy of being honoured seems like a really dishonest way of looking at history. The CD-i games have had a huge influence on video game culture and even just the existence of Arzette proves that at least some people have some attatchment to the aesthetic and content of the games.
First, this tagline, which was only said once by someone who didn't work on the game itself, is pure propaganda. The Nintendo biais is so strong and obvious that it cannot be taken seriously.

And even if it was to be taken seriously, the very concept of a celebration is to remember the good stuff. When we celebrate a country's history, we tend to put the light on the nice things that he did, not on the war crimes or the slavery he's been guilty of. A celebration is a party, not a history book.
 
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Champion of Hyrule

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First, this tagline, which was only said once by someone who didn't work on the game itself, is pure propaganda. The Nintendo biais is so strong and obvious that it cannot be taken seriously.

And even if it was to be taken seriously, the very concept of a celebration is to remember the good stuff. When we celebrate a country's history, we tend to put the light on the nice things that he did, not on the war crimes or the slavery he's been guilty of. A celebration is a party, not a history book.
Did you just compare Morshu to slavery?
 

Baysha

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As for the "bad game biais", it leaves me flabbergasted. I genuinely don't know what to say. "This is bad and it is not rewarded" seems like... totally normal.
And even if it was to be taken seriously, the very concept of a celebration is to remember the good stuff. When we celebrate a country's history, we tend to put the light on the nice things that he did, not on the war crimes or the slavery he's been guilty of. A celebration is a party, not a history book.
Personally, I kinda see it like if there was a really cool character with fun powers that comes from a real ****ty game, the quality of the game that character comes from should not impact the choice to add them or not.

In addition, I feel like your metaphor illustrates the disconnect between the sides of this argument. I hardly think that actual crimes that have been committed are even comparable to a low quality piece of media. One causes immense suffering, the other makes someone who was looking for recreation be disappointed at worst. Plus, with media, what is seen as "bad" can give valuable insight or good ideas, even if sometimes that is just "what not to do"
 

Schnee117

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Can you please explain why "meme picks" are bad? All a meme is is a shared emotional response to a single thing as being funny, it's no different from a bunch of people simultaneously finding Ridley scary or Banjo nostalgic.

Also, the fact that so much Morshu content is out there by default disproves the notion that "Nobody genuinely gives a **** about him"
Actual Meme picks like Morshu are bad because they're not genuine picks with a genuine fanbase behind them. The entire conceit is "haha they'd be funny" with no real consideration given to how they'd actually be implemented, often because the memes don't fit in Smash and/or the character offers nothing beyond the memes. They'd simply take the space from a character that actually warrants a spot because of their own appeal.

Actually remove the memes from Morshu for a second. He has nothing special. He's just a sleazy merchant which is an incredibly standard and generic characterisation that doesn't stand out at all. He doesn't have the appeal of a cheating lanky wacko plumber that features in numerous Mario spin-offs or a giant purple Xenomorph inspired space pirate dragon or a cartoony bear and bird duo. There's countless other options for merchants across gaming to go for (Anna and the RE4 Merchant immediately come to mind) and as a Zelda character he quite simply doesn't stack up to a cast filled to the brim with their own abilities and quirks that help them stand out and compete with one another to the point where no one can really settle on a decisive next character.

Quite simply, if Morshu wasn't a meme no one would care about him and it shows in his non-existent Smash fanbase. Waluigi, Ridley and Banjo have an actual inherent appeal to them which is why they've cultivated the large and loud fanbases they have. Ghirahim, Midna, Skull Kid, the champions, their descendants, Impa, Ganon etc. have all cultivated their own fanbases without the need for memes because they're genuinely good characters with abilities that would be cool to see in Smash. Morshu is a basic take on a sleazy merchant with nothing unique to offer

tl;dr
Actual Meme Picks are bad because those characters tend to be wholly undeserving when you move past the meme aspect, especially if they're from a franchise that is spoilt for genuinely good choices, and Morshu is a prime example of it.

This shouldn't need an explanation at all but here we are apparently.

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There is absolutely nothing worth celebrating about the CD-i. It was a terrible system with terrible games. You don't celebrate mediocrity, much less actual garbage. If you want history to be preserved then a triple A mascot platform fighter is the complete wrong place to look to for that. Some of y'all would insist a sports team celebrate fumbling a five point lead in a final just because it's an infamous moment.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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There is absolutely nothing worth celebrating about the CD-i. It was a terrible system with terrible games. You don't celebrate mediocrity, much less actual garbage. If you want history to be preserved then a triple A mascot platform fighter is the complete wrong place to look to for that. Some of y'all would insist a sports team celebrate fumbling a five point lead in a final just because it's an infamous moment.
See I think this metaphor illustrates what we mean because if that happened and was infamous it would be an important moment and worth remembering. Obviously no compilations done by the sports company would agnowledge it but if you’re talking about the most memorable moments in sports that would be worth talking about, not just highlighting the glory of a team. Sure, wanting even bad parts to get agnowledgment is a pretty idealistic view but at least it’s honest.
 

FazDude

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I just think Morshu would be an interesting add after we added some more non-Triforce fighters for Zelda. He isn't important to gaming history and plays a tiny role in Nintendo history, so I don't think he's "worthy" from that perspective. Like I said earlier, he's on an entirely different tier of "meme pick" due to his legacy revolving around on game and the memes that came out of it years later rather than being the head of their franchise (Red Angry Bird and Freddy) or being a mainstay character (Waluigi), so I don't think Morshu is a good pick given what Smash is going for and what fans want. I'd like him, but he doesn't really fit any niche that any other Zelda character could do better other than "CDI rep". I can admit to that, and honestly, him being a spirit/trophy would be more than okay with me.

That said, I do see the value some hold in adding him - He would be a funny pick. Thinking about it from a realistic perspective, though, I feel a spirit would be best. Imagine a world where Morshu became playable before Skull Kid. The Smash community would be in flames.

tl;dr: I think Morshu would be cool, and I feel there is merit to discussing him as a fighter, but I don't think he's a top priority.
 
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