Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Let me immediately preface with the fact that the current iteration of Kirby is my favorite character in any smash bros, ever. PMBR, you've done a fantastic job. Thanks again for making Kirby feel so fluid and fun. I just think it's probably a good idea to have a place to post specific facets about his design that might be a little off. In my humble opinion, Kirby is probably bordering on tournament viable, but might have a lot of problems keeping up with much of the cast.
Without further fanfare, let's open it up:
Which brings us to:
One proposed solution to kill a fistful of birds with one stone:
EDIT: I think it might also be cool to
It's worth noting that all of these problems are much worse against characters that outrange Kirby. Sword characters, Mewtwo, D3, Bowser, maybe Charizard (dat jab) all seem like pretty brutal matchups for Kirby. That being said, his combo game against the bigger characters might be enough to mitigate that quite a bit in their case.
All of this, it should be noted, is pretty minor stuff. I could also very well be wrong about any or all of it. Input on my input is, of course, more than welcome.
EDIT: APPARENTLY I'VE KILLED THE KIRBY FORUMS SORRY GUYS
Without further fanfare, let's open it up:
- Neutral B used to swallow projectiles such as Waddle Dees, and Diddy's peanuts (there's probably others of which I'm unaware) feels way, way too slow -much slower than getting hit by the attack itself, or simply suffering shieldstun. It seems as though it actually has *negative* frame advantage in these cases. This is very much a situation of the solution being worse than the problem - much like using Mewtwo's Confusion to deflect projectiles in Melee: which you guys quite rightly fixed for his PM iteration.
I think that having a solution like this to projectiles is very reasonable and in-theme for Kirby, especially considering that he is himself a highly mobile character without any form of projectiles himself. Kirby's design seems to essentially encourage use of a wide variety of slightly-mediocre but versatile tools to add up to something that's more than the sum of their parts by playing to his opponent's weaknesses. Allowing neutral B to swallow projectiles quickly would be very fitting. It would also be very thematically appropriate (and tactically interesting) to allow him to spit these back as stars. I don't, however, think that the choice to spit would be nearly as important as a simple dramatic increase to the speed of his swallow animation for projectiles.
Dedede and Diddy are already very hard matchups for Kirby; having the suck work as unintuitively as it currently does, only damages the situation further.
Not being able to waveland after shooting the Diddy Hat popgun also feels gross; but I'm sure you guys are working on that already.
Dedede and Diddy are already very hard matchups for Kirby; having the suck work as unintuitively as it currently does, only damages the situation further.
Not being able to waveland after shooting the Diddy Hat popgun also feels gross; but I'm sure you guys are working on that already.
- It seems like there's very little reason to use the upsmash under basically any circumstance- the hitbox of Fsmash seems bigger and better, with more kill power even on maps with far blast zones.
- Dsmash could use a bit more range, maybe? Sweetspotting this feels like it's probably unnecessarily difficult.
Kirby's only real grounded approach option (the dash attack) typically has 1 of 3 results: you pass waythrough the other guy (or his shield) with a crossup, you hit him with the sweet spot and open up an aerial combo; or you get hit/grabbed out of it. If you're approaching from the air, you have more options, but an aerial suck sends the enemy away; aerials will push him away (esp. with new shield mechanics), and will almost never find yourself near enough to hit with a proper downsmash. Almost none of Kirby's combos lead into a ground attack, so hitting with his smashes is almost strictly a hard-read or tech chase situation; and the range on Dsmash combined with its lack of benefit compared to Fsmash makes it a super undesirable risk for its potential rewards.
There is one obvious exception: the drill. I think drill->grab might be (but maybe not) a true combo, but am pretty sure that drill->any smash is absolutely not; so we can safely ignore it.
In principle, I'm completely okay with hitting his smashes be pretty much dependent on hard reads; but Kirby's *awfully* short on other options to get kills once opponents get to high %'s. The hammer is great and all (i've practiced B-reversing/wavebouncing/fastfalling the hammer at various heights for a combined total of probably 8 hours now), but actually hitting with it is next to impossible against a competent opponent who's playing carefully at high %'s.
There is one obvious exception: the drill. I think drill->grab might be (but maybe not) a true combo, but am pretty sure that drill->any smash is absolutely not; so we can safely ignore it.
In principle, I'm completely okay with hitting his smashes be pretty much dependent on hard reads; but Kirby's *awfully* short on other options to get kills once opponents get to high %'s. The hammer is great and all (i've practiced B-reversing/wavebouncing/fastfalling the hammer at various heights for a combined total of probably 8 hours now), but actually hitting with it is next to impossible against a competent opponent who's playing carefully at high %'s.
- Grabs: there doesn't appear to be any reason to ever use any throw other than dthrow.
*with the exception of high% bthrows offstage into edgeguards. Even facing off the stage at high %, Dthrow sends opponents at a much lower, more edge-guardable angle than up or fthrows. F-throw is, as far as I can tell, completely useless 100% of the time. It does next to no damage, sends opponents way out of combo range, and quite high, making it ineffective as an edge-guard opening.
I can understand having a few useless throws on a character who otherwise has a lot of options for every scenario (Sheik and her uthrow are an easy example), but Sheik's dthrow and bthrow are both super useful in general *and* can lead to kill moves at kill percentages. Even her Fthrow is situationally useful to setup edgeguards.
According to what I perceive to be Kirby's design philosophy as noted earlier, imo it's totally okay for Kirby to have a mediocre grab game (particularly considering the power of the suck as a command grab), but I think that each grab should probably be at least situationally useful, and allow Kirby to cover some situations where he would otherwise be screwed. Ie. when he's damaged a light, mobile character such as Mewtwo to 200% on a large map, and is simply unable to land any of his hard-read-requisite kill moves.
I can understand having a few useless throws on a character who otherwise has a lot of options for every scenario (Sheik and her uthrow are an easy example), but Sheik's dthrow and bthrow are both super useful in general *and* can lead to kill moves at kill percentages. Even her Fthrow is situationally useful to setup edgeguards.
According to what I perceive to be Kirby's design philosophy as noted earlier, imo it's totally okay for Kirby to have a mediocre grab game (particularly considering the power of the suck as a command grab), but I think that each grab should probably be at least situationally useful, and allow Kirby to cover some situations where he would otherwise be screwed. Ie. when he's damaged a light, mobile character such as Mewtwo to 200% on a large map, and is simply unable to land any of his hard-read-requisite kill moves.
One proposed solution to kill a fistful of birds with one stone:
- Increase the kill-power of the upthrow. I don't remember the exact percentage offhand, but it currently kills Mewtwo at something like 180% on Battlefield, contingent on Kirby landing on the top platform. I think it would be quite reasonable to reduce this significantly to 130-140% or so: slightly weaker than Mewtwo's upthrow as a kill move even if you hit a platform, but still a legitimate desperation option that doesn't mean you've already lost the game. This solution also rewards players for stage awareness, and getting the grab under specific circumstances.
- Similarly to your solution for Sheik: set up some sort of DI trap situation with his other throws. I think it might be interesting, for example, if Kirby's fthrow sent opponents parabolically *backwards* past Kirby after they hit the floor. This would encourage opponents to combo DI backwards, and survival DI straight up if near the ledge. This might also let Kirby set up some more interesting tech chases: and conflicts with the appropriate DI for his downthrow.
-> Note that this change in and of itself might be too strong. If something like this were done, I'd investigate increasing Kirby's lag frames after the throw, and possibly increasing the base knockback on dthrow slightly to encourage the use of the DI trap instead of mindlessly dthrowing.
- Similarly to your solution for Sheik: set up some sort of DI trap situation with his other throws. I think it might be interesting, for example, if Kirby's fthrow sent opponents parabolically *backwards* past Kirby after they hit the floor. This would encourage opponents to combo DI backwards, and survival DI straight up if near the ledge. This might also let Kirby set up some more interesting tech chases: and conflicts with the appropriate DI for his downthrow.
-> Note that this change in and of itself might be too strong. If something like this were done, I'd investigate increasing Kirby's lag frames after the throw, and possibly increasing the base knockback on dthrow slightly to encourage the use of the DI trap instead of mindlessly dthrowing.
- The nair is really, really good.
As of now, it's just fine; but I worry that it obsoletes Kirby's other aerial options (especially uair and fair, but even bair sometimes) just a little too often. If some of the other buffs were considered, I'd take a hard look at the nair and how it fits in with Kirby's aerial game. It may need some tweaking; but again, only if Kirby's other options are buffed imo.
Anyway, in summary, I think the biggest problem with Kirby atm is his complete lack of kill potential. In fact, his entire game seems to fall off once the opponent hits 130%: because combos don't work anymore. The hammer is a great option; but is still very slow, and as Kirby's only viable kill option at the moment; it's *incredibly* easy for a decently intelligent opponent to smell a Hammer coming a mile away.
So, uh, holy hell I wrote way more than I thought. Whatever, man
Anyway, in summary, I think the biggest problem with Kirby atm is his complete lack of kill potential. In fact, his entire game seems to fall off once the opponent hits 130%: because combos don't work anymore. The hammer is a great option; but is still very slow, and as Kirby's only viable kill option at the moment; it's *incredibly* easy for a decently intelligent opponent to smell a Hammer coming a mile away.
So, uh, holy hell I wrote way more than I thought. Whatever, man
EDIT: I think it might also be cool to
allow Kirby to cancel his upwards up-b into a jump, similarly to Bowser's down-b and how Kirby's same up-b, when performed sideways, already allows you to act out of it. Letting Kirby combo vertically a little better and/or hit an up-air while higher in the level would also help mitigate his kill-potential problems. I have exactly no idea what technical or balance challenges this may present, and so present it only as offhand food for thought.
It's worth noting that all of these problems are much worse against characters that outrange Kirby. Sword characters, Mewtwo, D3, Bowser, maybe Charizard (dat jab) all seem like pretty brutal matchups for Kirby. That being said, his combo game against the bigger characters might be enough to mitigate that quite a bit in their case.
All of this, it should be noted, is pretty minor stuff. I could also very well be wrong about any or all of it. Input on my input is, of course, more than welcome.
EDIT: APPARENTLY I'VE KILLED THE KIRBY FORUMS SORRY GUYS