Universal flaw in SSBM

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

This is something I've always wondered if it was just over my head. Why not see what the tourament-level players think?

I've played this game for quite some time now, but I'm not to the insane point where I can glide on the surface via wavedashing or do short-hop attacks on command, etc. I am just quite good enough, however, to wonder if the game is generally not balanced.

It seems to me that some characters are just flat out worse or better than other characters, even maxed out. Some characters even seem broken. I think it has to do with the lacking balance between speed and strength. Normally, if both players are equally skilled, a duel between a small fast guy and a slow but strong dude, it would be a pretty even match. All characters should be equally deadly, but just have a different power to speed ratio. I feel this is not the case in SSBM. Bowser, which apparently sacrifices all speed for pure power, is universally seen as a broken character because for some reason it's a lie that he is strong. Marth, Fox, and Sheik are blindingly fast, and yet their blows are not any less powerful than most of Bowser's. Not only that, but it seems they forgot to implement the simple concept of resistence. The stronger a character is, the tougher he should be, meaning the impacts he receives are slightly weaker, in force and/or percentage. It doesn't feel like this is even the case either, meaning the bigger your character is, just means he's that much bigger of a target. Why is it that some characters are strong AND fast (Marth, Fox, Sheik), while others are just lacking in qualities alltogeather without something making it up?

For example, doesn't it seem only fair that the world's best Mewtwo user in the world have a good chance at beating the world's best Fox in the world? Unfortunately, I think that'd be a slaughter. Fox has blistering speed as well as superquick attacks that pack amazing power. Mewtwo on the other hand, is generally slow, his attacks are fairly sluggish and only adequately powerful, and his DownB and OverB specials are pretty much broken in serious combat. It's like you can decide a match before it starts unless it's between two of five or six of the "good" characters. So I feel like this game revolves too much around what character you have rather than how good you are.

The best evidence of what I'm trying to express here lies within the very existence of the character TIERS. Because of the fact that the characters differed so greatly in their levels of natural advantage and uncontrolled skill, fans actually determined exactly how good they were and seperated them into five levels of playability. Wonderful, now we can clearly tell who sucks and who doesn't. The tier of the character usually has priority over the skil of the player. I've seen hundreds of gorgious yet sad matches of Game&Watches vs Marths, Nesses vs. Falcos, and Mewtwos vs. Shieks, where the lesser character would be controlled by a player leagues better than the other, yet ultimately be defeated simply because it did not balance out the crappiness of their character and the overability of the other. The tiers are very blatent. Here is how I see what the tiers do to my view of the game now. There are always exceptions, however.


A- Overpowered: Used by super-serious players who usually care nothing for the character's identity, look, style, or flare. Their primary concern is to just win, win, win.

B- Good: Used by serious players whom usually have a taste for who the character IS,, while the character's higher advantage level is just kind of an added bonus.

C- Okay: Used either by casual players, or elites that've maxed out their skills for the sake of regularly using a character they personally find awesome, despite the comparison.

D- Bad: Used either by extreme noobs, or the best of pros as a means to humiliate much lesser opponents. Makes a joke out of the character and ultimately gives SSBM a bad name...

F- Broken: So underdeveloped that the character cannot function properly in most serious settings. Can even be glitchy in design to their own disadvantage. Generally neglected.


Looking over this again, I have to admit that their is some great potential excitement that can come from a high-skilled player using a low-tier character and actually being good, but it's a concept rarely seen anyway. Figuratively, these "tiers" are a shrine to SSBM being a digital version of Paper-Rock-Scissors. Okay vs broken, overpowered vs. okay, bad vs. good, this is not the way competitive video gaming should be. I think that EVERY character should be kind of the "C tier"; every character is okay, but their best potential can be unlocked or surpassed depending on the skill of the player. That's my ideal game. Maybe my priotrities in judging video games is warped, though.

Express your thoughts on this, especially if you're one of the wavedashing superelites tourny sharks I've seen videos of. If you have an amazing story of like a Pichu beating a Dr. Mario, do tell.

 

[darkshadows]

and thus make SSBM like another game in which everything is equally balanced??

scrw that, Nintendo games are all about diversity.

-Some pick chars since they are cool
-Some pick chars because they are comfortable with them
-Some pick chars because everyone else likes them
-Some pick chars because they are fast
-Some pick chars because they are good with combos
-Some pick chars because they want to humiliate their opponents (Pichu, g+w, Bowser)

Oh and, it's not just because of speed and power. Fox may be powerful and fast, but if he gets caught in a combo, he's done for. Mewtwo may be slow and weak, but his attacks are unpredictable and random. Bowser might be big, slow, and weak, but with a good player, his combos and specials can be devastating. Pichu is incredibly light, but his tiny frame allows him to close in quickly and chain attacks. Sheik might be great all around, but she does have her counters. Every character has their counters.

 

[six]

There are always exceptions, but in general you are correct.

The first type is exception is the skill factor. A person who has played as pichu for years will always beat somebody who's just picked up a character for the first time or something, it's just common sense. No matter how talented you are with other characters, you need a familiarity with the character you're playing before you can be great with them. That being said, the less extreme cases are true too. On a regular basis, you will see really good players playing average or "mid-tier" or lower-tier characters like link, luigi, and so on, beating not as good players playing the foxes and sheiks and marths. However, I do agree that in a game of equal skill, the fox will beat the pichu and the sheik will beat the bowser and etc. Unfortunately, that's just how it is. Of course, you have to remember, it's almost impossible for two players to be at exactly the same skill level, so this doesn't matter very much. The general rule is play who you like, and if you get good enough with them you can beat anybody. That's the ideal, anyway =P

The other exception is counters. Some characters just seem to be made to beat others. For example, the ice climbers are considered "worse" than sheik in that they're rated lower. Yet a good IC's player will crush a good sheik player simply because the IC's have so much going for them against sheik (you'd have to go to the individual boards and read some posts to find out about who counters who and why). This helps keep the balance a bit as well, because even the best characters have an enemy that has some killer combo or move that just ***** them backwards and forwards. There are disadvantages and advantages to every character, it just depends on the player to decide which advantages are most important to them and which disadvantages they can live with.

I, for example, chose fox for his speed. That's his biggest asset, undeniably. He moves fast, his attacks are fast and have little lag, and he's a tough little bugger to keep up with. By taking those advantages, I accepted the fact that almost any character in the game can chainthrow me, combo me across FD and back if they want, and that if I am in a position where I'm being edgeguarded, I will probably get knocked out of my crap-priority up-B recovery on a regular basis. I also accept the fact that I drop like a stone in the air, which makes horizontal moves with a lot of knockback the absolute bane of my existance. It's all about learning how to overcome your character's weaknesses with your own skills and intelligence that makes the difference.

And that's where mindgames come in. You'll have to look those up if you wanna know more, I can't go into it cause this is long as hell.

So, in the end, yes, some characters have advantages that really make them seem broken at times. And yes, there are some match-ups where one character is heavily favored over another. But if that happens, either get better or play someone else against that character, someone who has a uberleethaxownage combo just like theirs.

(btw wavedashing is really easy, if you spent like 2 minutes in training mode you could probably figure it out and do it, there's nothing superelite about it =x)

 

[Tempest 01]

I hope this won't be closed, as it is a very intelligent and relavent post.

I think this is true, TO A POINT!! The best Mewtwo in the world vs. the best Fox in the world probably could win, as he would just use some strategies that could make up for these short comings and mindgames (one in the same, i guess ). But, the Fox DOES NOT NEED TO BE AS SKILLED AS A MEWTWO TO WIN, since Fox is a better character, probably the second best fox has an equal chance at beating the mewtwo.

Basically, Better character won't always slaughter, but they don't need to be as good as the opponent is they have a better character to win. (i hope this is understood...)

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

and thus make SSBM like another game in which everything is equally balanced??

scrw that, Nintendo games are all about diversity.

-Some pick chars since they are cool
-Some pick chars because they are comfortable with them
-Some pick chars because everyone else likes them
-Some pick chars because they are fast
-Some pick chars because they are good with combos
-Some pick chars because they want to humiliate their opponents (Pichu, g+w, Bowser)

Oh and, it's not just because of speed and power. Fox may be powerful and fast, but if he gets caught in a combo, he's done for. Mewtwo may be slow and weak, but his attacks are unpredictable and random. Bowser might be big, slow, and weak, but with a good player, his combos and specials can be devastating. Pichu is incredibly light, but his tiny frame allows him to close in quickly and chain attacks. Sheik might be great all around, but she does have her counters. Every character has their counters.

Comforting words, but I'm still highly skeptical. And I don't agree with diversity somehow being separate from balance. That's the Halo 2 argument as well. People need to realize that it's possible for a game to be cool, big, AND fair. It's a crying shame that gameandwatch, bowser, and pichu are "humiliation" characters. As if in serious battle you could afford to **** around like that. All three of those character's deserve their dignity, but unfortunately, they're broken. It should be possible for someone to master Bowser and make up for his giant body and slow movement via insane wavedashing, dodging, and shorthopping. I wonder if there's a person like that out there...

And speaking of Mewtwo's attacks being "random and unpredictable", what about his OverB special? Not only does flipping the enemy do jack damage, but allows them to immediately counter with an air attack. That's not all though. It can reflect objects and projectiles, BUT Nintendo probably got impatient and forgot to complete that attack, because anything reflected by it goes THROUGH the enemy as if it wasn't even there. SO gay how Nintendo could actually allow a glitch like that. What is it supposed to be, like, some psych-out mirage attack? That'd be a hilarious excuse. And as far as the Paralysis Glare, when is it a good idea to use that? It's too hard to get on people, and the whole glare-while-asleep attack is pointless too. Doggonit Mewtwo, you were supposed to own this game.... They had better fix him for SSBRevolution, assuming it's not too different from the first two.

Things like this piss me off because when I first started playing the game, it was my goal to master all three of the villains... as a kept getting owned by my freinds' fast characters, I wondered if I just sucked. Then I figured out it's because all 3 of the villains kind of suck (Dorf I admit is often dangerous).

 

[darkshadows]

Look in the seperate char forums for their seperate abilities and specials. A great M2 player CAN kill a good Fox player. But as someone above said, it's going to be a bit harder on the M2 than the Fox as for the training, but it pays. Everyone has their own strengths/weaknesses, some group of people decided to give each strength/weakness a value and create a tier list for it all. Don't just base off that, look at who you're most comfortable with (there should be another topic about innate skills for certain chars) and who's fighting style you like most, and then go deeper into it.

And Tempest, your 2nd best char is a Pichu. He's a bottom tier, but it doesn't mean that he sucks completely. Sure Pikachu might be a bit higher, but Pikachu is basically a bigger target that doesn't hurt himself with more sluggish attacks.

 

[PurpleEqualsDoom]

There are always exceptions, but in general you are correct.

The first type is exception is the skill factor. A person who has played as pichu for years will always beat somebody who's just picked up a character for the first time or something, it's just common sense. No matter how talented you are with other characters, you need a familiarity with the character you're playing before you can be great with them. That being said, the less extreme cases are true too. On a regular basis, you will see really good players playing average or "mid-tier" or lower-tier characters like link, luigi, and so on, beating not as good players playing the foxes and sheiks and marths. However, I do agree that in a game of equal skill, the fox will beat the pichu and the sheik will beat the bowser and etc. Unfortunately, that's just how it is. Of course, you have to remember, it's almost impossible for two players to be at exactly the same skill level, so this doesn't matter very much. The general rule is play who you like, and if you get good enough with them you can beat anybody. That's the ideal, anyway =P

The other exception is counters. Some characters just seem to be made to beat others. For example, the ice climbers are considered "worse" than sheik in that they're rated lower. Yet a good IC's player will crush a good sheik player simply because the IC's have so much going for them against sheik (you'd have to go to the individual boards and read some posts to find out about who counters who and why). This helps keep the balance a bit as well, because even the best characters have an enemy that has some killer combo or move that just ***** them backwards and forwards. There are disadvantages and advantages to every character, it just depends on the player to decide which advantages are most important to them and which disadvantages they can live with.

I, for example, chose fox for his speed. That's his biggest asset, undeniably. He moves fast, his attacks are fast and have little lag, and he's a tough little bugger to keep up with. By taking those advantages, I accepted the fact that almost any character in the game can chainthrow me, combo me across FD and back if they want, and that if I am in a position where I'm being edgeguarded, I will probably get knocked out of my crap-priority up-B recovery on a regular basis. I also accept the fact that I drop like a stone in the air, which makes horizontal moves with a lot of knockback the absolute bane of my existance. It's all about learning how to overcome your character's weaknesses with your own skills and intelligence that makes the difference.

And that's where mindgames come in. You'll have to look those up if you wanna know more, I can't go into it cause this is long as hell.

So, in the end, yes, some characters have advantages that really make them seem broken at times. And yes, there are some match-ups where one character is heavily favored over another. But if that happens, either get better or play someone else against that character, someone who has a uberleethaxownage combo just like theirs.

(btw wavedashing is really easy, if you spent like 2 minutes in training mode you could probably figure it out and do it, there's nothing superelite about it =x)

Sorry if this is a doublepost.

That sucks, man. See, YOU know the truth. You'd rather be good at the game than decide who you use based on how much you like him or how cool he is. So you chose Fox. Fox is almost broken in HIS OWN favor he's so good. But he sucks. He's boring and his attacks are like standard super-kung-fu attacks with no flare or finesse. Why would they give mewtwo the purple fire, and the eletrical sparks, and the floating, and the intimidation and coolness, but just make him a broken character? It's not fair, man. When I found out Mewtwo was in SSBM I almost cried, because I was a huge PKMN geek back then. Gosh, I just wish they had at least made the cool-LOOKING characters unfairly powerful. Now I have to be afraid of a kung fu foxman, a cliche-looking anime dude with a sword, and a shemale in tights. This game scarred me.

And isn't wavedashing the ability to short hop like an inch from the ground before immediately doing a back-diagonal air-dodge? Over and over and over in successful sequence? Hahaha, are you crazy? Of course that's mad-l33t! That would take months to master!

 

[darkshadows]

It's not fair, man. When I found out Mewtwo was in SSBM I almost cried, because I was a huge PKMN geek back then. Gosh, I just wish they had at least made the cool-LOOKING characters unfairly powerful. Now I have to be afraid of a kung fu foxman, a cliche-looking anime dude with a sword, and a shemale in tights. This game scarred me.

And isn't wavedashing the ability to short hop like an inch from the ground before immediately doing a back-diagonal air-dodge? Over and over and over in successful sequence? Hahaha, are you crazy? Of course that's mad-l33t! That would take months to master!

OK...did the game scar you or scare you? Anyway, if Mewtwo was like how he was in the cartoon series or the gba series, the game will be so unbalanced that everyone will either be a Mewtwo or quit in disgust. Also, if the cool-looking (wait, you call Marth not cool??) chars had all the attention, who would pick the not only plain looking, but horrible characters? Fox is cool once you get to know him.

And about wavedashing, I got it on my second try. Then it took around two weeks to integrate it into my matches. Just hold diagonal down left/right, hit X/Y, then immeadiately hit L/R. If you think that you can't do it, then don't even bother shffling. Or using Marth's/Fox's full potential. (The real reason Fox is so good isn't because of his kung-fu attacks; well maybe bair, but Fox is good because of his downB and wavedash) (Marth is great at aerials, and his reach is amazing, but you can't just rely on one or the other) (You might think that Pikachu/Pichu would be using their WTFlightning attacks on you, but their real power lays in the ability to combo aerials and their nonelectrical attacks)

 

[KyUuKyUu]

All games have stuff like this (except Halo but yeah I hate Halo =P) and it would be boring if everybody were around equal ground. Certain characters counter other characters, that's basically it.

Wavedashing takes 0 time to master. Hold diagonal + down. Press X/Y. Press R/L right after it. It's THAT simple.

Oh, and one thing - 'broken' means 'good'. Not 'horrible', as you use it.

Gosh, I just wish they had at least made the cool-LOOKING characters unfairly powerful.

Okay, wait. First you want equality, saying that Bowser, G&W, Pichu, etc, should be able to own everything. Now this? What exactly do you want?

High level play is usually as close to fair as it can get (as long as one of the characters isn't a counter to the other). In the Mewtwo vs Fox case I think it'd be pretty fair. It's not a SLAUGHTER just because one char is worse than the other. Mewtwo is NOT slow when you factor in his long wavedash. Yes, it is an uphill battle for Mewtwo but in no way is it a slaughter.

what about his OverB special? Not only does flipping the enemy do jack damage, but allows them to immediately counter with an air attack. That's not all though. It can reflect objects and projectiles, BUT Nintendo probably got impatient and forgot to complete that attack, because anything reflected by it goes THROUGH the enemy as if it wasn't even there. SO gay how Nintendo could actually allow a glitch like that. What is it supposed to be, like, some psych-out mirage attack? That'd be a hilarious excuse. And as far as the Paralysis Glare, when is it a good idea to use that? It's too hard to get on people, and the whole glare-while-asleep attack is pointless too.

Point being? How often to Pi(ka)chu players use Headbutt? When is G&W's dsmash useful? How many people actually use Donkey Kong's fair? My point is, most characters have some attack that isn't useful in most situations, don't just gripe about the one guy that you wanted to be really really cool.

He's boring and his attacks are like standard super-kung-fu attacks with no flare or finesse.

What the hell do you want him to do? Do some dragonballz related ENERGY BEAM OF DOOM ****? He's a freaking FOX with a GUN. If you think he's boring, okay, you've obviously never seen some guy doing insane shine combos and stuff. Go watch Shined Blind or something.

edit: typo

 

[frotaz37]

There's no such thing as a balanced fighting game..................

 

[Jim0]

Comforting words, but I'm still highly skeptical. And I don't agree with diversity somehow being separate from balance. That's the Halo 2 argument as well. People need to realize that it's possible for a game to be cool, big, AND fair. It's a crying shame that gameandwatch, bowser, and pichu are "humiliation" characters. As if in serious battle you could afford to **** around like that. All three of those character's deserve their dignity, but unfortunately, they're broken. It should be possible for someone to master Bowser and make up for his giant body and slow movement via insane wavedashing, dodging, and shorthopping. I wonder if there's a person like that out there...

And speaking of Mewtwo's attacks being "random and unpredictable", what about his OverB special? Not only does flipping the enemy do jack damage, but allows them to immediately counter with an air attack. That's not all though. It can reflect objects and projectiles, BUT Nintendo probably got impatient and forgot to complete that attack, because anything reflected by it goes THROUGH the enemy as if it wasn't even there. SO gay how Nintendo could actually allow a glitch like that. What is it supposed to be, like, some psych-out mirage attack? That'd be a hilarious excuse. And as far as the Paralysis Glare, when is it a good idea to use that? It's too hard to get on people, and the whole glare-while-asleep attack is pointless too. Doggonit Mewtwo, you were supposed to own this game.... They had better fix him for SSBRevolution, assuming it's not too different from the first two.

Things like this piss me off because when I first started playing the game, it was my goal to master all three of the villains... as a kept getting owned by my freinds' fast characters, I wondered if I just sucked. Then I figured out it's because all 3 of the villains kind of suck (Dorf I admit is often dangerous).

There are many low tier pros out there. look at the char specifics, vid section, and on DC++. Bowser definately isn't weak. It's his comboability that makes him so easily KO'd. There are pro Bowsers that can beat pro Sheiks, Fox's, Marths, Falco's, and Peach's. Look for the vids.

 

[Tipo mastr]

There's no such thing as a balanced fighting game..................

... why? Do you expect us to beleive you just because you said it? Try and back up your agruement with some facts. BTW, I think this "SSBM is unfair" s*** is just a big huge excuse for why these people suck at SSBM.

 

[Klingon]

this game isn't flawed. you just aren't good at it.

bowser isn't that slow, and his moves are strong enough that it takes a longer time to recover from, thus you can l-cancel your attack and start another one by the time it takes your opponent to regain control of his character.

watch koopacalypse by arash it shows him slaying some of the best gamers, using the best characters.

isai's bowser has also beaten kens marth.(ive heard)

and bowser is apparently the second worse character in this game.

I could also talk about ness and how can own **** but I am very biased on that subject
but let me say without the yyg he can still djc uair the **** out of any fastfaller.

please be able to play this game before you make wild accusations about it.

like you can't short hop?? wtf

wavedashing isn't some insane move, its something that people who play this game do.


please shut the

Micedit: Swears aren't necessary, thankyou.

 

[Red_Oxygen]

This is something I've always wondered if it was just over my head. Why not see what the tourament-level players think?

I've played this game for quite some time now, but I'm not to the insane point where I can glide on the surface via wavedashing or do short-hop attacks on command, etc. I am just quite good enough, however, to wonder if the game is generally not balanced.

It seems to me that some characters are just flat out worse or better than other characters, even maxed out. Some characters even seem broken. I think it has to do with the lacking balance between speed and strength. Normally, if both players are equally skilled, a duel between a small fast guy and a slow but strong dude, it would be a pretty even match. All characters should be equally deadly, but just have a different power to speed ratio. I feel this is not the case in SSBM. Bowser, which apparently sacrifices all speed for pure power, is universally seen as a broken character because for some reason it's a lie that he is strong. Marth, Fox, and Sheik are blindingly fast, and yet their blows are not any less powerful than most of Bowser's. Not only that, but it seems they forgot to implement the simple concept of resistence. The stronger a character is, the tougher he should be, meaning the impacts he receives are slightly weaker, in force and/or percentage. It doesn't feel like this is even the case either, meaning the bigger your character is, just means he's that much bigger of a target. Why is it that some characters are strong AND fast (Marth, Fox, Sheik), while others are just lacking in qualities alltogeather without something making it up?

For example, doesn't it seem only fair that the world's best Mewtwo user in the world have a good chance at beating the world's best Fox in the world? Unfortunately, I think that'd be a slaughter. Fox has blistering speed as well as superquick attacks that pack amazing power. Mewtwo on the other hand, is generally slow, his attacks are fairly sluggish and only adequately powerful, and his DownB and OverB specials are pretty much broken in serious combat. It's like you can decide a match before it starts unless it's between two of five or six of the "good" characters. So I feel like this game revolves too much around what character you have rather than how good you are.

Express your thoughts on this, especially if you're one of the wavedashing superelites tourny sharks I've seen videos of. If you have an amazing story of like a Pichu beating a Dr. Mario, do tell.

Did you know that Mewtwo beats almost every character in SSBM except falco because of teleport and disable.

 

[Jim0]

Did you know that Mewtwo beats almost every character in SSBM except falco because of teleport and disable.

False. STFU.

 

[Red_Oxygen]

False. STFU.

True. No you STFU

I already tested it agianst a human...and a really good human(tourny worthy)....

 

[darkshadows]

True. No you STFU

I already tested it agianst a human...and a really good human(tourny worthy)....

Guys...it doesn't matter who the char is, it's all about the way the player plays the character, and whether he's good or not.

 

[Jim0]

True. No you STFU

I already tested it agianst a human...and a really good human(tourny worthy)....

You must be REALLY skilled then.

 

[iAmMarth]

Well, I do know where he is coming from in one aspect. I used to own with Mewtwo ( I no longer use him). I would fourstock my friend non-stop, and he was a fox user. Then I went without playing for like two days, and I played him later on the second day, and he just completely obliterated me. I didn't get it. But yes, it is a game of skill, so I know where everyone else is coming from too. My other friend is a Game and Watch user, and he swore to me that he would pound me, so we played. ( He also uses Marth). When I beat his Game and Watch over and over with both Marth and Falco, he claimed it was because the game was unfair (even though earlier he was going to pound me, remember?) and Game and Watch was not made to be as good as Falco or Marth. So I said to him, "Then why don't you use your Marth against me, and I'll use someone that I'm not as good with?" So I decided to use Fox ( who I actually can't use that well, he is really different from Falco, at least for me), and I still beat him. Then I told him to stop saying that the game was unfair when the real problem was that he sucked.

 

[Jim0]

Well, I do know where he is coming from in one aspect. I used to own with Mewtwo ( I no longer use him). I would fourstock my friend non-stop, and he was a fox user. Then I went without playing for like two days, and I played him later on the second day, and he just completely obliterated me. I didn't get it. But yes, it is a game of skill, so I know where everyone else is coming from too. My other friend is a Game and Watch user, and he swore to me that he would pound me, so we played. ( He also uses Marth). When I beat his Game and Watch over and over with both Marth and Falco, he claimed it was because the game was unfair (even though earlier he was going to pound me, remember?) and Game and Watch was not made to be as good as Falco or Marth. So I said to him, "Then why don't you use your Marth against me, and I'll use someone that I'm not as good with?" So I decided to use Fox ( who I actually can't use that well, he is really different from Falco, at least for me), and I still beat him. Then I told him to stop saying that the game was unfair when the real problem was that he sucked.

Translation if you decide not to read that ginormous wad of text:

It's a game of skill.

 

[Tipo mastr]

... and what part of this topic hasn't been a "ginormous" wad of text? Jim0, please stop with the one-liners. iAmarth actually backed up his arguement with examples. Saying its a game of skill doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up. Even though I agree with you that this game is more or less balanced, you can't blame someone for giving an arguement that you could read and think for a couple seconds about.

 

[YOSHIDO]

its close to balanced. I think all charcarters can take down alll charcters. its just that the lower tiers have to work a lil more. Now i notice i have a lil harder time takin them down. But eveyone has their weakness. most of those hightier charcters are reall fragile. U hit thim a couple of times and they will be stunned for days. From there u have find the onpening and advance on it.

 

[Blind]

Diversity = imbalance. As well as developers not being at the same kind of intensity as the people who play the game. I doubt they measure out frames like some players will to see what can actually combo into what, and they don't always recognize the ramifications of making certain moves behave certain ways...

...

I despise it when people say that M2's strength is his unpredictability and randomness. His shadowball's trajectory, which remains within a certain boundary and only flits around arbitrarily within that boundary... maybe. Beyond that, all you have to do is play against a decent one and he won't seem that random. And I know what a good M2 looks like. Promise. Watching his M2, actually, I would put him higher in the list. Not that much higher, but higher nonetheless.

Not a discussion on M2 though...

Yeah some are better than others. That's because developers aren't perfect, nor are playtesters. But the reason this game has survived is because enough diversity exists and enough balance exists that the game is worth playing after 4+ years of people cracking it apart to learn new things about it. And there are still people taking characters to undiscovered heights.

The game is fine, I promise.

 

[Shadow-Kitsune]

I agree with alot of the posters in this thread, that SSBM is not balanced. So what? How many good fighting games out there ARE balanced? A balanced game is nearly impossible to make. Unless you want it incredibly dull, you'd put in characters that are better than others. Nintendo/HAL Labs had a limited budget and a limited deadline. If they had unlimited of both, they could have made a balanced AND fun game.

...I just realized everything I said has been said by HonorBound.

 

[G-Ron]

I agree also that the game isn't balanced, and that's where the skill comes in, however just because a person is lower in the tier doesnt mean that they suck... The true beauty of ssbm is when you have to develop your own strategies for different characters and play mindgames to get your opponent how you want them.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

It's balanced enough. It's not perfect, but it's a good amount I think.

 

[_glook]

"... why? Do you expect us to beleive you just because you said it? Try and back up your agruement with some facts. BTW, I think this "SSBM is unfair" s*** is just a big huge excuse for why these people suck at SSBM."

He wasn't stating something about SSBM, he was stating something about fighting games in general. Especially with really deep games, like SSBM, you can't predict what players will do and how they will use all of the moves availiable and the game engine availiable. Some things are going to slip through the radar (as a designer) and you won't know everything that will happen, thus, you will be unable to balance the game. All fighting games are like this, not just SSBM, unless your game is extremely limited. Now, with enough time, you can get a reasonably balanced game (not perfectly balanced, game makers ARE only human you know) but games made don't nearly have this much time to just BALANCE the game. A feat like this would require EXTENSIVE time just BETA test. Plus, realize that after FOUR years, people are still finding ways of playing their character. The best game makers can hope for is that somehow the things they've DONE with the characters will somehow even out. This is not how it works out, of course, but that's the hope.

 

[Tipo mastr]

_glook, that's what I was looking for. An arguement based on fact and examples! For threads like this, one liners just don't work.

Addressing this, remember when we all thought jiggz sucked? And it turns out, he/she/it is one of the most formidible opponents in the game! This may very well happen with mew2!

 

[thedocsalive]

Diversity = imbalance.

.....

Yeah some are better than others. That's because developers aren't perfect, nor are playtesters. But the reason this game has survived is because enough diversity exists and enough balance exists that the game is worth playing after 4+ years of people cracking it apart to learn new things about it. And there are still people taking characters to undiscovered heights.

That pretty much sums up what I think. The more variety added, the more imbalanced the game will be. And I think Smash have enough diversity to be fun and have great replay value, while having enough balance so that no character is truly broken.

Yeah, I realized I just basically repeated what HonorBound said. And less. Well, it was a good post by him, and I agree with what he said.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

No one character is so unbalanced as to be so good that no other character can touch them or no other character can lose to them. Sheik is the best character in the game for sure, but there are a few characters (IC, Fox, Falco) that just eat her alive. But all characters, even if they are low or bottom tier, have a match in their favor, or if they don't have that, have an advantage over other characters in some way. Take Young Link for example. He is countered by pretty much everyone in Top/High Tier. However, if he plays well enough, he can frusturate his opponents and camp behind a wall of projectiles. Young Link might not counter many characters, but he basically counters unskilled players and player who aren't farmiliar with Young Link's playstyle.

 

[CaNaDiaN eH?]

Come on people most of you (including me) will never reach the limit where the higher tier characters are going to win a good 90% of the time, and lose because of them screwing up.

 

[Psiklone]

Skill matters soooo much more than character.
A decent player will beat a bad player, whether or not he/she is using M2. G+W, Pichu, or Bowser.

 

[darkshadows]

well, that's basically what everyone said. The only way to have a "fair and equal" match in SSBM is:

Go to FD, have 4 plrs of the same skill select the same char, and find a way to start them all in the same position. Fair? yes. Fun? not really.

 

[janokovac]

the best on the world http://vip.netsurf.ru/browse/?r=64360

 

[Red_Oxygen]

Well, I do know where he is coming from in one aspect. I used to own with Mewtwo ( I no longer use him). I would fourstock my friend non-stop, and he was a fox user. Then I went without playing for like two days, and I played him later on the second day, and he just completely obliterated me. I didn't get it. But yes, it is a game of skill, so I know where everyone else is coming from too. My other friend is a Game and Watch user, and he swore to me that he would pound me, so we played. ( He also uses Marth). When I beat his Game and Watch over and over with both Marth and Falco, he claimed it was because the game was unfair (even though earlier he was going to pound me, remember?) and Game and Watch was not made to be as good as Falco or Marth. So I said to him, "Then why don't you use your Marth against me, and I'll use someone that I'm not as good with?" So I decided to use Fox ( who I actually can't use that well, he is really different from Falco, at least for me), and I still beat him. Then I told him to stop saying that the game was unfair when the real problem was that he sucked.

so this is supposed to prove me wrong. an experience with your friend. We don't even know that even happened.

 

[HDL]

You people worry about tiers too much. Saying stuff like "a good Pichu can beat a bad Sheik" is ********. A good Pichu can beat a good Sheik, an elite Link can beat an elite Sheik, a fast hand can beat a top tier p3nis. The main factor here is difficulty of the matchup at hand. You people worry too much about tiers and forget about the things that are more important. Character specific matchups, counter stages, players, and player styles. Because of all these factors at work any character can beat any given character regardless of skill. What matters most are the players at hand and difficulty in winning with certain characters. One might say that it’s harder for an elite Link to beat an elite Sheik, but that doesn’t mean the Sheik player will win 90% of the time. Because there are so many factors that need to be taken into account that you can’t rely on tier placements or which characters are better. If Ken’s Marth can be beaten with Bowser, you should have your proof on this already.

 

[krimzonwaffle]

speed will allways have an advantage over strength, there's no escaping it. whats the use of having such high powers if u cant hit your opponent? and though being weak with speed, your still doing damage and the damage builds up and it really counts.

 

[JesusFreak]

The universal flaw in ssbm is the same as it was in ssb64: Throws. They toned it down some, but in doing so they allowed for obscene chain throws. Chain throwing better be gone in the next smash. -.-

 

[Jim0]

speed will allways have an advantage over strength, there's no escaping it. whats the use of having such high powers if u cant hit your opponent? and though being weak with speed, your still doing damage and the damage builds up and it really counts.

OHH!! I see! Pichu is top tier then!

THANKS!!

 

[JesusFreak]

No, he's right. Speed beats power hands down. Sure there is a little balance, but not much. That's why characters like ganondorf, who is a good character ovrall, can be overwhelmed by the speed of characters like Fox falco and CF.