Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[ranmaru]

#998. Now answer my question.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

No, you answer MY question. You are yet to say anything about J that doesn't involve me.

while J was active, talking, questioning, and to me was looking more at intent

So J was active in RVS - is that it? Is that why you townread him? I'm not a mindreader.

 

[ranmaru]

I also liked his #577. I'll also state that now that I think about it, he wasn't as active as I thought, but when he did come around I liked his opinions. So I'll put him at slight townie as I had him originally. Now, we do have to consider the question mark: Koops. If J were to flip scum, I'd look into Koops direction, simply because Koops has been away and has not cared to even respond to his prod.

Anyway, now can you answer my question? Thoughts on Koops, and JD?

 

[Spak]

Firstly, why do you ONLY ever comment on stuff to do with me? You have a problem.

Secondly, you're reaching.

Sorry but I was trying to point out Gheb's play towards your slot since that was a point of debate a couple pages back. If Gheb did that to another slot, I would have still commented on it.

Koops. If J were to flip scum, I'd look into Koops direction, simply because Koops has been away and has not cared to even respond to his prod.

Chibo replaced Koops last page.

 

[ranmaru]

@ChiboSempai replaces DtJ Glyphmoney!

 

[ranmaru]

Spak what's your thoughts on the J wagon? Thoughts on the people on him?

 

[ranmaru]

Kary, I find your #977 townie. I'm not down with your direction anymore. If J is scum, then I'd understand the game alot more. (For instance, why Rake was pushed so hard while Rake was being a distraction)

Unvote

 

[Spak]

Ohhh, my B. I thought Chibo replaced in for Koops.

As of a couple pages ago, I thought that J had a strong possibility of being scum. His defense against Kary was inadequate, he seemed to be intentionally avoiding questions, he slot had garbage reasoning for pushing Kary (like I'm one to judge lol), and he wasn't willing to let up on anything. He is usually stubborn on his reads, but I've never seen him tunnel anyone so hard. The wagon started out with slots that I really didn't like (I don't like Gheb too much this game, Rake has been sketch all game, I didn't like Kary when the vote was posted) and thought they didn't have any good reasonings, but Dietz posted actually legit reasons and I started to see the wagon a bit differently.

My biggest concern with J is how hard he is pushing me being town with little reasoning other than "he hasn't done anything scummy". I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm naturally skeptical of this since the only time he's ever been this confident of my slot's alignment was when he was scum. I really liked his stream-of-consciousness post (#972) as it showed genuine frustration with the game thus far (whereas scum would be happy with inactivity), but he's still moved down to a null/town lean. I don't think he should die today (that would be Rake or Koops), but now I understand the reasoning behind his wagon better and don't hold his lynch against those that actually provided reasons or extensively interacted with J (or at least tried to) during the wagon. I'll hammer if absolutely necessary, but I'm not confident that J is scum.

On another note, upon re-read of late D1, did anyone notice Rake's vote after a lynch was confirmed? That seemed kinda like he was kicking a man when he's down; I don't really think it's scummy, but it was either bad sportsmanship or he really wanted to get on the Joey wagon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sparky was a minor point which I don't get why has been blown up to seemingly be the only reason I am viewing certain slots as scum [...]

You may wanna read back for a bit to remind yourself of the context of the whole thing because this is totally not what happened. Nobody has 'blown up' anything. The point was that you said that the people 'giving Spak flag' were 'scummers up to no good'. I asked you to clarify. Twice. The first time you didn't respond. The second time it took you a while to respond. Now I'm questioning your response because I don't think your explanation adds up well with the things you said back then. It's an entirely normal discussion.

And that is not true at all that you "let Ran do his own thing" because he only just started playing the game this DayPhase and 24 hours into the end of yesterDay so you're over-exaggerating that

When exactly did I say anything to or about Ran that comes even close to shutting him down or even interfering with him? Despite him not being in the game for very long he has posted quite a bit and I did nothing to stop him despite thinking that most of it is pretty worthless.

So if I'm 'exaggerating' about letting him do his thing [I'm really not though] then you are exaggerating twofold about shutting him down.

Speaking of honesty, do you honestly believe that I am scum and that the wagon on me is majorly town?

I think there's a reasonable chance you're scum. There are a lot of things that don't add up in your play. The arguments you're making toDay do not match things you said yesterDay yet when I question you about them you insist they do.

Are all the people on your wagon town? Who knows. Your flip will help me figure that one out but from pov it's likely that most people are.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd also like to add something to the previous post as a general issue I have with your play: despite your claims/implications that your reads are more differentiated than that you keep talking about "Rake/Kary/Gheb" as if these three slots were one single entity generally operating in the same direction [they're also your top 3 three scum reads pretty much]. This holds true both in the way you look at Spak and the way you look at Ran.

I wonder how you'd react if I lumped you in a fictional scumteam with Ran and Sang for you unisono attack against Kary? I bet you'd call BS on that 'read' ... except that's *exactly* what you are doing right now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

~ Gheb ~ :

Talk to me. Are you ok with this J wagon? Do you think it is legitimate? What is your read on Ryu?

I mean I'm the only one besides Dietz who actually has some sort of reasoning to be voting J. Even J himself has acknowledged this fact. I'm not super-happy with the people that are on it, not gonna lie, but what else am I to do? I think J is scummy and if it's not him that gets lynched toDay it's gonna be an inactive slot anyway. Regardless of what's happening, there will be people on a lynch that I have huge issues with.

That's just how this game is going though. There are too many null/non-town players around. If I cared about a 'good' wagon with lots of townbros on it we wouldn't be lynching anybody in this game because there's like 3 slots that actually do stuff. The rest are either incapable of hunting scum, making themselves easy to read as town or just flat-out don't play this game. Ryu is a player all of these statements apply to right now imo. He's not hunting scum, he's not doing anything to come acfross as pro-town and I'm not sure if he actually does anything worthwhile. If this town weren't such a terrible mess we'd probably discuss the option of lynching him toDay. As things stand though we're probably going to have to make up our minds between J or a slot like Koops or Rake that we'll have to get rid of sooner or later anyway.

 

[ranmaru]

Fair enough. I'll give a re-vised pick list after I eat.

 

[ranmaru]

Question though: Why did you let me do my thing as you say? What is your opinion of my slot?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because at this point I'm honestly just happy if there's somebody else around who's actually doing anything ... not that I think your input will make a difference anymore, the game's just to stalled out for that, but I can't say you don't deserve credit for trying. It probably won't surprise you but you're pretty high on my town list. The only thing that I think is wrong with your play is your read on me. You really shouldn't lean, let alone read me as scum. I don't think I ever actually understood where you were coming from with that but I don't think it's a problem at the moment so I never cared too much.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'd also like to add something to the previous post as a general issue I have with your play: despite your claims/implications that your reads are more differentiated than that you keep talking about "Rake/Kary/Gheb" as if these three slots were one single entity generally operating in the same direction [they're also your top 3 three scum reads pretty much]. This holds true both in the way you look at Spak and the way you look at Ran.

I wonder how you'd react if I lumped you in a fictional scumteam with Ran and Sang for you unisono attack against Kary? I bet you'd call BS on that 'read' ... except that's *exactly* what you are doing right now.

Would I have though? That's a terrible point to say you would know what I would do and if you were to suggest something it would be logical from your PoV to suggest a J/Sang scum-team based on her being the only one to semi-defend my slot besides players like Ran/Sparky who have come in saying that they disagree with me being scum as adamantly as other people view. Ran put me in his list to live, but that's about it. Plus Sang/Ran haven't been moreso defending my actions because they have been questioning a few things which is fair. They are having a bigger problem with Kary because her responses read scummy to them.

I think you are more just not getting over the fact that I view you as a possible scum-lean. It's not a single entity, but it is what I am strong about. You've kind of just been tunneling me this day-phase, but who is my scum-team? I'm humoring this because I would like an answer but at the end of the day it is nothing but a hypothetical that only a parallel world posses because you're still wrong on my slot.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ya know, I'm seeing that a Kary wagon isn't going to happen especially with toDay's playerlist not wanting to touch that slot with a 10-ft pole which is fair, but if the wagon is between myself and her, I will be dead come tomorrow night. Now where I am putting my vote is a vote which literally everyone has been okay with and it is infinitely a better option then my lynch. Even if you base it purely on who is actually playing the game vs. who is sniping posts then that's a good enough reason at that. Also it's almost unanimous that Rake is scummier than me for reasons everyone has pointed out and something that I am still strong about since yesterDay.

Gheb's 1011 is correct in saying that this game has been stagnant due to the copious amount of replacements and the fact that half of the playerlist is MIA constantly and not scum-hunting is bologna. That's what is making this day-phase incredibly hard because here's the thing; when I'm lynched the activity is going to drop in half and that's a given fact based on the track record of players in this game. We need to do something about these scummy "questionable" slots that are lurking in the background and basically acheiving nothing to the state of the thread minus just being a number on a wagon. Hence why I am at L-1 with 3 bull votes from slots like Kary/Rake/Ryu when 2 of these people have not stated reason as to their vote and one is harping on a fact that has already been answered. Gheb/Ditzy are the only two to provide reasoning for my push and that's all.

Unvote
Vote: Rake

SangfroidWarrior ranmaru Spak

Make this the opposing wagon and force the other side to choose between myself and Rake. That will create a better paper trail even if this final attempt leaves me still being lynched. Having Rake be a candidate will be better than literally no other wagon minus mine/Sang's vote on Kary. Y'all have expressed discontent with his slot and shown it as such and seem to find him scummier than myself so I will urge you to vote with me on this matter.

 

[#HBC | J]

@ASC | Red Ryu

Why are you voting me and why are you trying to lynch me?

 

[#HBC | J]

Make it happen, please. The other option is Rake and I think the J flip will probably answer that question anyways.

Does anyone see this as Kary trying to set-up future lynches? It's subtle and it's there. If both myself/Rake flip town in the future, her slot better be on a pike.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

totally disagree, J looks infinitesimally worse and moreso when you consider the thread as a whole and where the game is

Rake, can you talk about this a bit more? I meant to ask earlier but it slipped my mind. In light of recent events, I think this is pertinent again, for me at least.

Two things:

1.) I think a lot of this reasoning applies to J as much, if not more, as to Kary
2.) Why did it take you so long to reach the scum!Kary conclusion? Virtually all of these points applied yesterDay already!

As a response to the first, I just don't see as much scummy from J so you're gonna have to put that into perspective for me. Then again, I don't know how much more we can hash this out. To the second, it took me so long because I didn't like Kary's play D1 (didn't like it, but didn't necessarily see it as scummy at that point) and I wanted to wait and see if it got any better. It didn't, in my opinion, and I just kept finding things I didn't like, to the point that I found it scummy.

So when I vote soup on page 7 citing problems with his play (#244), I'm not pushing him?
When J ignores me for an entire Day phase, and I respond by voting him, I'm opportunistic?
My reads are 'maybe faked' -- but maybe not?

Honestly Sang, if you want to read me as scum, I can't stop you. If you're going to bend over backwards to try and see everything I do in a negative light, there's only so much patience I have to explain how wrong you are.

I mean, if you insist on having a blind spot for J and just give him the benefit of the doubt, I'm not surprised you think I'm scum. I mean, you probably think he comes across as 'genuine'. Don't listen to him- look at his play.

I may just be reading your 244 incorrectly, but... you only had one thing in there about Soup. You had more about Rake, so I don't really see how any of that amounts to pushing him. Your vote was opportunistic because it looked like you only were willing to vote after somebody else did, as I already stated. Your reads seem faked because you state one thing and not long after change it to something else. The only consistent read you have had is J, and even then it wasn't that consistent til the end of D1.

Maybe I'm just bad at reading people. I don't know. I thought I used to be decent at this but too long of a break has made me rusty, and maybe just bad in general. I just can't see your play having town intent. From my perspective, a lot of your posts have been scummy. But, a few of your recent posts I like, and other people have pointed out some things as well that make me unsure. I just have a hard time seeing J scum, but if basically everyone else can see it then I'm just missing something super important that I can't find.

 

[ranmaru]

FoS: Rake

To me, this post has no pro-town intent, especially since J hasn't mentioned Koops again. I'm not feeling his Rake push.

I realize that J hasn't been as active as I thought he was. He was active early game, which gives him good points. I did notice earlier that J reacted to Rake's vote but not Kary's earlier. I felt that was out of place, because Kary was voting without reason all over the place, even on page 6, one page before Rake votes Koops without reason. He came around with a reads list, but stated he was being stubborn on Rake, I thought nothing of it at the time. Now I realize it was because he'd prefer Rake over Koops. Nothing I can really pin him on but just a note if he does flip scum. J as scum attacks his buddies attackers, same as Inception Mafia where he attacked (someone) for attacking *some girl I don't remember her name, kuz's bae*. Also, he does tend to keep his targets as null so he can attack them afterwards, so voting Kary without reason, and ***** footing around her, fits J being scum.

Reason I didn't realize this: Span of time. J always waiting as town and letting his slot get lynched, making me think "Huh, how about we give J a chance because he may just be town like always who can't D1." Yet this has tainted my reads. I am reminded that this game was one that was stalled, and Gheb (my top scumread at the time) had not much idea who was scum D1 for a while, and I can understand his perspective, because I have been in that position with a town that is inactive. (Most likely, the scum are laying low and/or inactive)

I will admit I was confirmation biased, and even looked at Soup's opening post, noticing his koops comment D2. I thought "No, that can't be at this point." I was so convinced of Rake/Gheb that I didn't take it into account. I will say that Rake's actions D2 towards my slot did not help me read him any better, especially since I had no problem with him the day before. Yet, I can see backwards Rake shaninigans. One thing that is true is that he is always honest to the point of giving every facet of his role, just because he's an honest canadian.

Kary, I have explained. The more Kary posted, the more I felt she was town, especially from her #977.

 

[#HBC | J]

My Sparky read is something I can talk about for a second since that seems a bit of a point against me still.

Sparky is a player I know extremely well based on almost literally playing in every game he has since he has started here on SWF. I can read his tells easily and to me Sparky has a very clear tell in my book. When Sparky is scum he has a problem generating genuine town behavior and also not being able to control his emotions as well. This is a point that I have been using to evaluate what Sparky is doing and what his intentions are. When looking at Sparky in this game, not one person has looked at intentions besides "his play is bad" which, if you feel that way, you should point out where the malintent in a slot like that is. Sparky has been trying to scum-hunt on his own and trying to figure out the puzzle on his own this game and that is why I view him as town because I can see the cogs turning in his mind and I can see him trying to find scum and actually play for town. If he has gotten better and is fooling me, then kudos to him. I do not think this is the case. I find Sparky to be a strong-town read of mine.

People keep asking me to explain my Sparky read, which I have done in largess fashion. Yet, why has no one been providing a reason to look into Sparky? Every person who has asked me to clarify my read on Sparky for why I view him as town should be telling me why I should not be viewing him so strongly. Instead though I get responses like "His play is bad." which does nothing for alignment sake because town can play bad and so can scum so which side of the coin does he fall?

 

[ranmaru]

People I want to lynch toDay:

J, Koops

People I'd compromise to:

Rake

People I want to keep:

Sang, JD, Kary, Gheb

Need more content:

Chibo, Spak, RR, Rake

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh dear, if Ran is turning against me it is Game Over for my slot since I don't have a leg to stand on haha.

Well I'm a VT so put me out of my misery and don't keep me waiting for tomorrow's inevitable.

 

[ranmaru]

Intent to hammer J.​

Relevant:

 

[ranmaru]

Sang, talk to me.

 

[#HBC | J]

Well here is a final post from me since this Cinderella story couldn't beat the idiocy of my lynch from slots that hold no real standing. I'll take the blame of not explaining myself in grandiose detail, but no one ever truly explained why not explaining is scummy and also what makes me the best candidate for a lynch. People also are trying to attribute meta as a reason for my lynch which is poor logic considering y'all know me better as a player that trying to throw meta at my slot is bad.

I've been here, I've been explaining my actions. Look at Kary on my town-flip. Look at Rake. Don't let Sparky get lynched. Muscle RR to actually do something this game. Hold Gheb to his actions of ML'ing if he makes it to endgame. Sang/Ran can possibly win this game if they are town like I believe so I would suggest protecting them. Ditzy needs to do more, but he has actually been my back-up 3rd scum-read outside of Kary/Rake and not Gheb *shocker!*. Chibo's slot need more since what he is posting is literally our first look at that slot and it's on pg. 26 which is disappointing.

Use the connections from my flip and Koopy's flip to actually lynch scum instead of just hand-waving my slot away to a lynch.
play.

 

[Spak]

Vote: Rake

After further consideration, I'd rather have Koops either be replaced or modkilled; we will get literally nothing off of Koops' death, while we would get larger amount of info off of a J or a Rake flip.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

If I'm wrong and J is scum then at least that will clear some things up for me and make this game a bit easier to understand. If I'm right and J is town then I will definitely need to re-read because I think there's some connections there but I'll have to see.

J as scum attacks his buddies attackers, same as Inception Mafia where he attacked (someone) for attacking *some girl I don't remember her name, kuz's bae*. Also, he does tend to keep his targets as null so he can attack them afterwards, so voting Kary without reason, and ***** footing around her, fits J being scum.

Who do you think his scum buddies would be then? Koops? If there are 3 scum, who else?

Kary, I have explained. The more Kary posted, the more I felt she was town, especially from her #977.

Could you talk to me more about this/things that you like from her?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Spak, can you talk to me a bit about that? Why were you still trying to push Koops even though he hasn't really posted anything toDay?

 

[ranmaru]

If J scum > Koops > Spak. Spak mostly because he is mostly away, in catch up mode, tunneling Kary, and is never around to talk to me. Koops because he is away forever and most likely scum avoiding the thread. Notice how Koops also stated he'd vote me at the start of the day. He said he was reading. Never came back.

I'm liking Kary's responses to me, they don't seem responses that come from scum. Just seems composed, explains things that make sense, even though I have had concerns with her Early D1 play, yet I've had similar problems with her in past games and came out wrong.

 

[Spak]

Spak, can you talk to me a bit about that? Why were you still trying to push Koops even though he hasn't really posted anything toDay?

Because I'm sick and tired of inactive slots in this game. If they get to endgame and are still inactive, we'll have a gigantic problem on our hands. If they get to endgame and become suddenly active, they will have only had a week or so to mull over a month-long game and could make the wrong decision much more easily. If they are coasting/inactive and scum, there is literally no way of knowing. I concluded that we shouldn't lynch him today off of policy because we'd start up next phase with just as much information as we had at the end of this phase, and this thread needs more info for an activity boost.

 

[ranmaru]

So Sang, any objections to J hammer?

 

[#HBC | J]

Ranmaru under your logic, that means you think you are getting a double-scum-flip with Mine/Koopy's lynch?

Oh goodness...this is just getting silly.

 

[Spak]

If J scum > Koops > Spak. Spak mostly because he is mostly away, in catch up mode, tunneling Kary, and is never around to talk to me. Koops because he is away forever and most likely scum avoiding the thread. Notice how Koops also stated he'd vote me at the start of the day. He said he was reading. Never came back.

How are you getting Koops scum if J is scum? Koops has had little to no interactions since D1 and nothing about either of them in D1 made me think it's a likely scumteam.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes but I also find it concerning that he has not come back after saying he was reading, and would have voted my slot. When the mod prodded Koops, he viewed, and said nothing. There was also no replace out, so he did not do anything to get out of thee game. He purposely stayed in it, while stalling it. So it's mostly individual suspicion on Koops.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

If J scum > Koops > Spak. Spak mostly because he is mostly away, in catch up mode, tunneling Kary, and is never around to talk to me. Koops because he is away forever and most likely scum avoiding the thread. Notice how Koops also stated he'd vote me at the start of the day. He said he was reading. Never came back.

I'm liking Kary's responses to me, they don't seem responses that come from scum. Just seems composed, explains things that make sense, even though I have had concerns with her Early D1 play, yet I've had similar problems with her in past games and came out wrong.

If he were to flip town, who would you want to look into more? I think I'd agree that Koops might be scum, even just independently of J, but he also might be modkilled if he doesn't post or if there's no replacement. I'm not sold on the Spak thing, because J has a history of buddying townies as well. We'll see. As for the Kary thing, I think I'd have to agree, but I'm not sold on that, either. A few posts don't hold all that much weight in comparison to her other posts, IMO.

Besides the obvious, I'm only opposed to the hammer for two reasons: 1) I never got the chance to look into that thing, but I can save that for the Night phase, if possible. 2) There aren't that many people here and I'd want to see more from people, but I don't put all that much faith in people actually posting at this point, and I don't want to drag this out any further when hardly anybody will be posting.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yes but I also find it concerning that he has not come back after saying he was reading, and would have voted my slot. When the mod prodded Koops, he viewed, and said nothing. There was also no replace out, so he did not do anything to get out of thee game. He purposely stayed in it, while stalling it. So it's mostly individual suspicion on Koops.

....That's such weak reasoning, I think you win that contest buddy.

Also Koopy has done this the past 3-4 games so the point is null.

 

[ranmaru]

That's the problem, if he is to flip town, his wagon is pretty odd. If J were to flip town, I'd look into Gheb > Kary > Rake.

 

[#HBC | J]

You mean you would just go back to the original plan before you back stabbed me in the end due to flippant reasoning?

<3

 

[ranmaru]

Yes, because then I'd realize I was wrong on you and I'd take revenge for you. You do not know how much I cried over Zen's death in Walmart Mafia. But no really if you flip town I'd realize Kary may be full of it, and same for Gheb. Yet I don't think that is the case at this point in time.