Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[KuroganeHammer]

Its harder because our jumpsquat is only 3 frames now instead of 8

 

[Darches]

I talk in terms of normal damage because the 20% buff affects EVERYONE. Even if dThrow WAS 17% damage it's still not insane, or even good. Do you know what insane is?
Fox's reverse pivoted uTilt vs Bowser is insane, dealing like 30-80% (level 9 CPU can escape only a couple times).
The top tiers are insane.
Bowser's pivot grab is insane.
Bowser's old uThrow is insane.
Bowser's new dThrow is not insane.

I hope the new jumpsquat doesn't become a problem, although even if we hit with aerial upB it should be safer now.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Pushblock Gaming said the sour spot on up air was a mistake due to not being aware of the 20% damage buff removal with items on. Thus there is currently no known evidence that it has a sour spot. Also didn't Zapp say Up Air comes out on frame 7 now or something? I get what you mean about side b punishes though. At frame 6, it's a great turnaround punish.

Nah that was an early mistake due to poor footage. It's still coming out at 9.

As for K Rool Up Throw, seeing what that move is based on, he's earned the title of most damaging throw.

I talk in terms of normal damage because the 20% buff affects EVERYONE. Even if dThrow WAS 17% damage it's still not insane, or even good. Do you know what insane is?
Fox's reverse pivoted uTilt vs Bowser is insane, dealing like 30-80% (level 9 CPU can escape only a couple times).
The top tiers are insane.
Bowser's pivot grab is insane.
Bowser's old uThrow is insane.
Bowser's new dThrow is not insane.

I hope the new jumpsquat doesn't become a problem, although even if we hit with aerial upB it should be safer now.

Whoa, chill dude. We're just happy our Dthrow deals good damage to keep our F and B throws unstaled. Bowser Fthrow was top of the line for kill power in 4, and Bthrow was top ten ish. Gotta keep those options open.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nah that was an early mistake due to poor footage. It's still coming out at 9.

As for K Rool Up Throw, seeing what that move is based on, he's earned the title of most damaging throw.



Whoa, chill dude. We're just happy our Dthrow deals good damage to keep our F and B throws unstaled. Bowser Fthrow was top of the line for kill power in 4, and Bthrow was top ten ish. Gotta keep those options open.

Shouldn't be shy to use fthrow and bthrow for edgeguards, though!

 

[S_B]

I'm hoping heavies are going to be a great deal more viable because of the potency of edge guards being higher, but that's a double edged sword and we all know it.

Have we seen how susceptible aerial up b is to being attacked?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Not really, not yet. Although I believe we got a better disjointed hitbox. I'm wondering too.

Speaking of Aerial Fortress, the wiki states this:
"Aerial Whirling Fortress now needs multiple button presses to recover, and it travels a shorter distance."
That's kind of concerning, especially since I believe we have a shorter jump distance.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This clip of Air fortress looks pretty much the same as a non-boosted Fortress in 4 in terms of height. You should be rising almost two Bowser heights. But we have nothing concrete on whether Fortress Boosting is in Ultimate. If it is, I hope it's easier to perform. No more pause before mashing, just let the player mash immediately like with Luigi Cyclone.

As for the hitbox, some disjoint absolutely exists in footage we've seen, we just don't know how much or if the disjoint is greater to the sides or up above. In Smash 4, Air Fortress' hitbox was smaller than Bowser's hurtbox, and did not factor in his spikes, so the improvement was easy to notice when Bowser traded with a Samus D-Air - or really any move.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I'm just coming here to tell you I'll have the possibility to play the demo at DreamHack Montreal september 8th. So I'll try to get replays of my matches and post them here.

 

[pap64]

I am reserving my judgement on Ultimate Bowser until I play him for myself, because (and this is my own personal opinion) it's one thing to speculate, analyze, discuss, dissect frame by frame how each character has improved and reading someone else's own playtime with a character, the other is to test the character yourself.

As a major, non-competitive fighting game fan, the beauty of the genre is that once you play through a whole roster you get to feel which character works the best and which one works the worst, and while a good chunk of the time is based on how balanced and programmed they were by the developers, it all boils down to how a character feels to the player. Hence why I don't want to either be optimistic or pessimistic about Ultimate Bowser because I want to play him for myself. That and views have been so extremely divided that I will take them all with a grain of salt, and once I play Bowser I can say "Well, they were right about that!" or "Oh boy they were way off with this!".

As for the one person who said that everyone is coming in brand new to Ultimate (I don't know if this was said on this thread or another), I concur; while the Smash series has been consistent in terms of controls starting with Melee, and has kept the fighting concept since Smash 64, the engines themselves have received major changes even if the controls and concept remained the same. Its like how everyone who had played Melee for over 6 years came into Brawl and realize that they had to re-learn the game again, and then when Smash 4 came out, everyone had to re-learn the game all over again.

Ultimate is turning out to be the most fine tuned, revised, and maybe even polished Smash entry yet, which means we have to re-learn it all over again. And with the game nearing 70 plus characters, changes are bound to happen. So again, reserving my judgement till the game is out and in my hands.

 

[S_B]

pap64 and like I've said a few times now, given that I'm 1000% sure Nintendo will be focusing on esports with SSBU, this will have better post-release balance patches than SSB4 did, and likely for far longer than it did as well.

 

[Darches]

Whoa, chill dude. We're just happy our Dthrow deals good damage to keep our F and B throws unstaled. Bowser Fthrow was top of the line for kill power in 4, and Bthrow was top ten ish.

I can't be chill when people are spewing nonsense. By "top of the line" you mean "no stronger than (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and peach, and weaker than DK, Olimar, Zelda, Toon Link, Villager, Shulk, and Ness" Also, his fThrow and bThrow are identical.

Shouldn't be shy to use fthrow and bthrow for edgeguards, though!

This. Although more often then not I'm gimped if I try any fancy offstage edgeguarding. Another less expected option is to throw them towards center stage to take advantage of Bowser's dash speed and apply faster pressure. Ike would be an example of someone who's risky to edgeguard anyway.

Hey Kurogane, what has a lower hitbox for 2-framing: down-angled fTilt or dTilt?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It was Ftilt in Smash 4 but I'm not sure until I see the hitbox changes for Ultimate.

 

[meleebrawler]

I am reserving my judgement on Ultimate Bowser until I play him for myself, because (and this is my own personal opinion) it's one thing to speculate, analyze, discuss, dissect frame by frame how each character has improved and reading someone else's own playtime with a character, the other is to test the character yourself.

As a major, non-competitive fighting game fan, the beauty of the genre is that once you play through a whole roster you get to feel which character works the best and which one works the worst, and while a good chunk of the time is based on how balanced and programmed they were by the developers, it all boils down to how a character feels to the player. Hence why I don't want to either be optimistic or pessimistic about Ultimate Bowser because I want to play him for myself. That and views have been so extremely divided that I will take them all with a grain of salt, and once I play Bowser I can say "Well, they were right about that!" or "Oh boy they were way off with this!".

As for the one person who said that everyone is coming in brand new to Ultimate (I don't know if this was said on this thread or another), I concur; while the Smash series has been consistent in terms of controls starting with Melee, and has kept the fighting concept since Smash 64, the engines themselves have received major changes even if the controls and concept remained the same. Its like how everyone who had played Melee for over 6 years came into Brawl and realize that they had to re-learn the game again, and then when Smash 4 came out, everyone had to re-learn the game all over again.

Ultimate is turning out to be the most fine tuned, revised, and maybe even polished Smash entry yet, which means we have to re-learn it all over again. And with the game nearing 70 plus characters, changes are bound to happen. So again, reserving my judgement till the game is out and in my hands.

You only have to look at some of the best Smash 4 players dying due to airdodges offstage which will no doubt be seen as a careless, dumb mistake once the meta settles to see that they have much to learn about Ultimate. And yet they often fail to consider global changes other than jumpsquat and landing lag when speculating on changes, only going off on what worked in 4.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

I can't be chill when people are spewing nonsense. By "top of the line" you mean "no stronger than (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and peach, and weaker than DK, Olimar, Zelda, Toon Link, Villager, Shulk, and Ness" Also, his fThrow and bThrow are identical.
This. Although more often then not I'm gimped if I try any fancy offstage edgeguarding. Another less expected option is to throw them towards center stage to take advantage of Bowser's dash speed and apply faster pressure. Ike would be an example of someone who's risky to edgeguard anyway.

Hey Kurogane, what has a lower hitbox for 2-framing: down-angled fTilt or dTilt?

Okay dude, now you gotta chill because you are just being rude for no reason.

Yeah, I'm totally spewing non sense saying that we have a throw that deals huge damage. I don't ****ing care if other characters are able to combo off of their own, what I am saying is that yes, while it is unfortunate that Bowser does not have throw combos anymore, he at least has a throw that deals big damage BY ITSELF to keep our kill throws fresh, the devs could have just kept the damage of down throw from 4, and then it would have been terrible, but they didnt. **** off with your "nonsense". Nonsense is giving false information or terrible knowledge, which I'm not doing. Why don't you go on other characters boards if you're such a fan of urrrdurr muh easy down throw combos?

 

[Kerthorok]

Video quality isn't great, but I think I found an illustration of jab -> f tilt working in Ultimate, courtesy of Allios. https://youtu.be/hEpKppM33B0?t=24

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Video quality isn't great, but I think I found an illustration of jab -> f tilt working in Ultimate, courtesy of Allios. https://youtu.be/hEpKppM33B0?t=24

Thanks for providing this man. This is good info. I think jab in general will still be one of Bowser's best tools in neutral.

 

[Kerthorok]

Yeah actually, with the exception of the terrible camera work, it's a really good video overall. It's amazing what happens when we actually get videos of people who know what they're doing instead of randoms lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Okay dude, now you gotta chill because you are just being rude for no reason.

Yeah, I'm totally spewing non sense saying that we have a throw that deals huge damage. I don't ****ing care if other characters are able to combo off of their own, what I am saying is that yes, while it is unfortunate that Bowser does not have throw combos anymore, he at least has a throw that deals big damage BY ITSELF to keep our kill throws fresh, the devs could have just kept the damage of down throw from 4, and then it would have been terrible, but they didnt. **** off with your "nonsense". Nonsense is giving false information or terrible knowledge, which I'm not doing. Why don't you go on other characters boards if you're such a fan of urrrdurr muh easy down throw combos?

It seems like a lot of the usual throw combos are getting nerfed. It may have something to do with compensating for the lower amount of rage, or more likely Ultimate is just trying to de-incentivise grabs as the go-to punish, which would fit with them being generally laggier. Only characters who had weaker throw games have had them buffed (either via a better grab or improved throws).

 

[S_B]

Okay dude, now you gotta chill because you are just being rude for no reason.

Yeah, I'm totally spewing non sense saying that we have a throw that deals huge damage. I don't ****ing care if other characters are able to combo off of their own, what I am saying is that yes, while it is unfortunate that Bowser does not have throw combos anymore, he at least has a throw that deals big damage BY ITSELF to keep our kill throws fresh, the devs could have just kept the damage of down throw from 4, and then it would have been terrible, but they didnt. **** off with your "nonsense". Nonsense is giving false information or terrible knowledge, which I'm not doing. Why don't you go on other characters boards if you're such a fan of urrrdurr muh easy down throw combos?

I feel like s/he's being a bit harsh but I can see their point.

To be clear, I'm glad Bowser has better frame data, a shorter jumpsquat, and a new Dsmash that can hit enemies on the ledge AWAY from the ledge instead of pulling them into the attack and then launching them back to the safety of center stage.

These are all good things, but as we've learned from the past, examining tools in a vacuum is meaningless.

The only reason I'm optimistic for Bowser's chances is due to Nintendo's new focus on esports (like the Splatoon 2 league). Were they not playing the esports trumpet, I would consider Bowser to already be condemned to low tier because none of his new tools are that impressive, especially compared to what he used to have that was keeping him from being low tier like Gdorf and D3.

As of now, KKR is going to be a better Bowser than Bowser, with projectiles, a counter, a move that buries, and a Dair that can spike without automatically sending him to the abyss with the opponent.

At the minimum, I expect Bowser to get his throw followups back after a few months post release. But in my wildest dreams, the post launch "live team" takes balance further and does things like alter moves to add frames of super armor, or change how they work entirely, such as allowing Bowser to cancel his Dair like Bayo can.

In order to not be low/bottom tier, Bowser needs a safe confirm that either racks damage or guarantees him a KO. Throw followups did that last game. He'll need something like it this game, and he may yet have it hiding in his moveset (like ending of Nair always combos into Fsmash or something) but we have yet to find it while pro players have already found the similar setups other characters have.

Again, I'm still banking on post release balance to save Bowser (and maybe Gdorf as well) from low tier hell. It's hard to not be pessimistic when looking at the tools other characters have especially, but post launch balance is the best hope we've got.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That "Does Bowser still have his Ding Dong" thread is just...that has to be a bait. I won't take it.

I can't be chill when people are spewing nonsense. By "top of the line" you mean "no stronger than (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, and peach, and weaker than DK, Olimar, Zelda, Toon Link, Villager, Shulk, and Ness" Also, his fThrow and bThrow are identical.

Yes but those characters don't have identical F and B throws. Bowser having the strongest Fthrow for killing is accurate. It's just the competition is much more fierce when it comes to Bthrows.

Hey Kurogane, what has a lower hitbox for 2-framing: down-angled fTilt or dTilt?

I wouldn't try D-tilt in this game now that it's no longer a kill move. Just a small 5- 6 percent hit on each swipe. Even if you 2 framed Little Mac with that he'd make it back since his double jump is back.

It seems like a lot of the usual throw combos are getting nerfed. It may have something to do with compensating for the lower amount of rage, or more likely Ultimate is just trying to de-incentivise grabs as the go-to punish, which would fit with them being generally laggier. Only characters who had weaker throw games have had them buffed (either via a better grab or improved throws).

This really can't be emphasized enough. With how much they've addressed the vanilla Dthrow > Uair meta of Smash 4 I'll be just as happy to not fall victim to other cookie cutter kill confirms. And it warrants mention that Bowser's old Uthrow in Ultimate would be oppressive now that it takes him five less frames to get in the air for a followup and how unsafe air dodges are. Uthrow to Dair at the ledge would be a true combo at certain percents while Uthrow to Bair would be the standard followup for dealing damage and getting people offstage - thus invalidating our F and B throws as positional tools.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[pap64]

pap64 and like I've said a few times now, given that I'm 1000% sure Nintendo will be focusing on esports with SSBU, this will have better post-release balance patches than SSB4 did, and likely for far longer than it did as well.

This is going to be Ultimate's saving grace. Any kind of competitive game lives and dies on patches, updates, buffs and nerfs. It doesn't matter what kind of game it is; it NEEDS to have the support of the company and the development team must keep fixing it and updating it. This is how games like World of Warcraft and Team Fortress 2 can be played for years and still attract new players while keeping the old ones happy.

Nintendo clearly tried to keep Smash 4 updated, but the Wii U's disastrous sales lead them to say "welp, the only ones playing it seriously is a small sector anyway so why bother?", which is why I am more than happy that Smash Ultimate exists; Smash 4 laid ground to what is in my eyes one of the best Smash engines yet, one that is a hybrid of Melee, 64 and Brawl that allowed for changes and updates to happen. With the Switch already outselling the Wii U at a rapid pace, Smash Ultimate has the chance to finally be similar to Melee in that it can be played for years and years as along as Nintendo continues to support it.

 

[Kerthorok]

ssbwiki says Bowser's bair has increased startup and end lag. Has there been any evidence to actually suggest this?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Increased? That's false. I think the startup is the same, but it got a massive a landing lag buff though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So I've been looking to lock down specifics on a Tough Guy armor increase for a while. Had a thread ready to go with some key examples when I slowly realized a lot of what I saw doesn't make sense when put together. Those key examples being Cloud's Jab 1 and Pika's F-Tilt. To armor these moves in Smash 4, the knockback threshold for Tough Guy would have to be tripled. These two moves deal the same damage, and the free for all setting lets us compare directly to Smash 4. Plus it just makes sense for them to increase Bowser's Tough Guy armor, not just as a buff but as a response to the addition of the 1v1 multiplier which would take away moves we could armor in the past. However, I have an example of another move, weaker than those two examples but Bowser fails to armor it, and it's Sonic's Jab 1.

So here are the facts at this point:

• No concrete evidence of a Tough Guy Threshold increase.
• Expect lots of new multijabs to be armored because many of them are now weaker in ultimate to compensate for hitting the victim more often. Pit is an example of this.
• Cloud's Jab 1 and Pika's F-tilt have something in common now - the same knockback angle which is 361 degrees. My only standing, sort of theory at this point is that moves with the "Sakurai" angle happen to have less knockback in general at low percents. Like, look at our late hit of F-Smash. Barely causes a flinch.
  • If my theory holds true than that's an indirect buff to Tough Guy. That's one of the most common knockback angles for any move that sends horizontally, including many projectiles.

It's unknown how well Tough Guy will perform in 1v1 settings. But I feel confident from footage it will matter more in Doubles where the 1v1 multiplier isn't an issue. And Bowser is already an excellent character for Doubles.

 

[Darches]

Does the current flying slam auto-cancel or just have extremely low landing lag?

 

[Kerthorok]

Does the current flying slam auto-cancel or just have extremely low landing lag?

Flying Slam currently autocancels in Smash 4. The really nutty thing about it in Ultimate is that despite the autocancel removal and the slight FAF increase, it comes out on frame 6 both on the ground and in the air. This is a 2 frame buff for the grounded version and a whopping 11 frame buff for the aerial version. This means Bowser will have a command grab that's faster than Wario's chomp (currently frame 8 I believe) and it kills. People will have to be really careful about sitting in shield and just shield grabbing. I really think people have been too focused on the autocancel loss and not the significant startup buff to the move. Hopefully side b won't have the pointblank whiffing issue it had in smash 4.

 

[Kerthorok]

Breaking News! Thanks to KingKong, we finally have footage of grounded Down B. It looks like Bowser has a slightly new animation where he fully leans in as he hits the opponent with his horns before launching into the air. This may mean that the grounded hitbox now has more range. Would love to get the frame data on it. https://youtu.be/y8jQiC1LihA?t=2m4s

 

[Darches]

Youtube video frames:
8 frames BB startup
26 frames BB recovery
4 frames jab

/0.58 =

13.75 frames BB startup
44.69 frames recovery
6.78 frames jab

It's possible that the startup time has increased by a frame or 2 while certain that the recovery has decreased by around 10 frames. It won't have any impact against the speedsters but might occasionally help against slower characters. The new animation provides like 1% more pullback followed by slightly more range over the original. Hopefully it actually connects this time.

 

[S_B]

Breaking News! Thanks to KingKong, we finally have footage of grounded Down B. It looks like Bowser has a slightly new animation where he fully leans in as he hits the opponent with his horns before launching into the air. This may mean that the grounded hitbox now has more range. Would love to get the frame data on it. https://youtu.be/y8jQiC1LihA?t=2m4s

Ugh, THAT'S depressing: right around :14, we see KK jump and Up+B off the ground as fast as he can and he can't even catch the top of Ryu with the hitbox. Wonder if the hitbox on it is still pretty damn small or what...

So right around here: https://youtu.be/AEYnER6xv_4?t=46s

It looks like Bowser TGs something while unleashing a final smash. Unless there's some mechanic in the game where some characters acquire momentary super armor after charging a smash for long enough (which would be neat).

 

[Darches]

It looks like the attack wasn't active yet, he was still starting the spin. There's no good reason to upB in that scenario though; he's probably just struggling with tap jump (you only have 3 frames jumpsquat to upB).

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Was he... Using aerial fortress as an escape option??

 

[S_B]

In other news, Pikachu still fries our fat, scaly ass off:

I died a little inside when Bowser was 2/3rds of the way through an Fsmash and Pika beat it with a Fair...

Was he... Using aerial fortress as an escape option??

I think he and Ryu were both just messing around, trying out moves and such.

 

[meleebrawler]

In other news, Pikachu still fries our fat, scaly *** off:

I died a little inside when Bowser was 2/3rds of the way through an Fsmash and Pika beat it with a Fair...



I think he and Ryu were both just messing around, trying out moves and such.

Smashes are the wrong places to look for good frame data.

It just looks he walked right into Pika's stuff for the most part, instead of spacing him out with fair. Yes this shows Pika can mess Bowser up badly, but the latter's play really wasn't the smartest.

Also he armoured a Thunder Jolt at 34% while using usmash.

 

[S_B]

Smashes are the wrong places to look for good frame data.

It just looks he walked right into Pika's stuff for the most part, instead of spacing him out with fair. Yes this shows Pika can mess Bowser up badly, but the latter's play really wasn't the smartest.

Also he armoured a Thunder Jolt at 34% while using usmash.

I mean, it's King Kong, one of the few PR Bowsers out there, fighting against a Pikachu player with the same amount of experience with the game as him so that's kind of a wash.

Doesn't mean anything in the long run, but I'm sure Pika isn't going to be a fun matchup, though TG will make it more bearable than it was in games past.

Also, Usmash has the shellguard on it so it would armor it no matter what.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, it's King Kong, one of the few PR Bowsers out there, fighting against a Pikachu player with the same amount of experience with the game as him so that's kind of a wash.

Doesn't mean anything in the long run, but I'm sure Pika isn't going to be a fun matchup, though TG will make it more bearable than it was in games past.

Also, Usmash has the shellguard on it so it would armor it no matter what.

No, he took damage from it which wouldn't have been true if it was the shellguard.

I'm just going to reiterate that all players are going to have to relearn their characters regardless of how good they were in the previous game... maybe, ESPECIALLY if they were good at the previous game.

 

[Darches]

Old grappler playstyle:
uThrow -> uTilt (15.5%)
uThrow -> 3/4 or 4/4 nAir (43%)
uThrow -> uAir/fAir/bAir/half nAir (64.13%)
1-3 more hits/grabs to get 'em in proper kill range. Lets simplify and assume 1-3 dThrows (76.13/88.13/100.13%)
uThrow -> uAir kill
5-7 grabs to kill
19.03/17.63/16.69% average damage per throw.

New grappler playstyle.
dThrow (14%)
dThrow (28%)
dThrow (42%)
dThrow (56%)
dThrow (70%)
dThrow (84%)
dThrow (98%)
1-3 dThrow (112/126/140%)
sideB kill
8-10 grabs to kill

Considering the flow of play, Bowser's old grab would deal around 17.78%. Attacks miss occasionally so I'll subtract 10% (16%). Bowser's main draw, his grab game, has been nerfed by 12.52% in reliable damage output. This multiplies with his clearly reduced kill power (RIP rage) and will definitely impact his competitive viability.

Now, if we can tough guy through stuff like Megaman's saw, that'll change my frown upside down.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just because you're a grappler doesn't mean you grab all the time. Zangief would just get jump-kicked in the head repeatedly if he tried that.

The only reason Smash 4 Bowser was so reliant on his grab was that his other good tools were limited by his poor jumpsquat, inability to use them out of a dash and landing lag, all things that have been by and large rectified. This means Bowser can be far more varied in his approach, and will have a higher chance of connecting whatever he attempts, including grabs.

Whereas , against top tiers could really only pray that they overextend or give him too much undeserved respect, can truly earn said respect.

 

[Darches]

Well, my problem is that with his grabs nerfed so much I'll probably just play someone else. Ike had really good grabs in Sm4sh but also disjoint and a counter (I kill with reads). Going by the wiki though, I don't think Ike will be as godly as some people propose.

Unless all the old throw combos are nerfed there won't be much reason left to play Bowser. For example, Ike's buffed pivot fTilt will be nearly as effective as Bowser's pivot grab. It seems unfair that only Bowser lost his combo throw.

 

[S_B]

Old grappler playstyle:
uThrow -> uTilt (15.5%)
uThrow -> 3/4 or 4/4 nAir (43%)
uThrow -> uAir/fAir/bAir/half nAir (64.13%)
1-3 more hits/grabs to get 'em in proper kill range. Lets simplify and assume 1-3 dThrows (76.13/88.13/100.13%)
uThrow -> uAir kill
5-7 grabs to kill
19.03/17.63/16.69% average damage per throw.

New grappler playstyle.
dThrow (14%)
dThrow (28%)
dThrow (42%)
dThrow (56%)
dThrow (70%)
dThrow (84%)
dThrow (98%)
1-3 dThrow (112/126/140%)
sideB kill
8-10 grabs to kill

Considering the flow of play, Bowser's old grab would deal around 17.78%. Attacks miss occasionally so I'll subtract 10% (16%). Bowser's main draw, his grab game, has been nerfed by 12.52% in reliable damage output. This multiplies with his clearly reduced kill power (RIP rage) and will definitely impact his competitive viability.

Now, if we can tough guy through stuff like Megaman's saw, that'll change my frown upside down.

I feel like TG is going to make or break Bowser entirely.

If TG gets stronger depending upon what Bowser is doing at the time, it would actually be amazing.

This includes things like dashing, smash attacks, specials, etc.

It would mean Bowser has a playstyle based around taking lots of damage but strategically deciding when he's not going to care.

This would also make Bowser one of the most technical characters in the game.

No, he took damage from it which wouldn't have been true if it was the shellguard.

I'm just going to reiterate that all players are going to have to relearn their characters regardless of how good they were in the previous game... maybe, ESPECIALLY if they were good at the previous game.

I rewatched it: Bowser TGs Pika's neutral B, looks like. The Usmash had yet to begin when Bowser was hit.

I thought you meant his DOWN b at first...

Just because you're a grappler doesn't mean you grab all the time. Zangief would just get jump-kicked in the head repeatedly if he tried that.

The only reason Smash 4 Bowser was so reliant on his grab was that his other good tools were limited by his poor jumpsquat, inability to use them out of a dash and landing lag, all things that have been by and large rectified. This means Bowser can be far more varied in his approach, and will have a higher chance of connecting whatever he attempts, including grabs.

Whereas , against top tiers could really only pray that they overextend or give him too much undeserved respect, can truly earn said respect.

I'd love for you to be right, but the jury is still out on all of this.

We know that TG is at least dependent on whether Bowser is grounded. If it's also dependent on move execution at the time, Bowser could be a monster in this game with very likely the highest skill ceiling as well.

 

[Kerthorok]

I feel like TG is going to make or break Bowser entirely.

If TG gets stronger depending upon what Bowser is doing at the time, it would actually be amazing.

This includes things like dashing, smash attacks, specials, etc.

It would mean Bowser has a playstyle based around taking lots of damage but strategically deciding when he's not going to care.

This would also make Bowser one of the most technical characters in the game.



I rewatched it: Bowser TGs Pika's neutral B, looks like. The Usmash had yet to begin when Bowser was hit.

I thought you meant his DOWN b at first...



I'd love for you to be right, but the jury is still out on all of this.

We know that TG is at least dependent on whether Bowser is grounded. If it's also dependent on move execution at the time, Bowser could be a monster in this game with very likely the highest skill ceiling as well.

I really hope the skill ceiling for Bowser is higher. Up throw up air cheese really dumbed down Bowser's play style. Would love to see a return to a focus on spacing, mindgames, and mixups, with a couple of new and improved tools like TG change, landing lag buffs, and side b startup buff.