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Trying to get into competitive smash but can't even beat lvl 9 cpu

AaronSMASH

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I'd like to get into competitive smash but I can't even consistently beat a lvl 9 cpu. I'd say I win about half of them but sometimes they just come out and obliterate me easily and I can't seem to touch them. Do I have to play differently? Am I just terrible? Because from what I hear, competitive smash players easily stomp lvl 9 cpus and it's embarrassing for them to ever lose against them.

I play for hours every single day and still can't beat them more than half the time.
 

E-Mann

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I'd like to get into competitive smash but I can't even consistently beat a lvl 9 cpu. I'd say I win about half of them but sometimes they just come out and obliterate me easily and I can't seem to touch them. Do I have to play differently? Am I just terrible? Because from what I hear, competitive smash players easily stomp lvl 9 cpus and it's embarrassing for them to ever lose against them.

I play for hours every single day and still can't beat them more than half the time.
http://smashboards.com/guides/5-tips-n-tricks-for-the-smash-newcomer.202/
 

E-Mann

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I'd like to get into competitive smash but I can't even consistently beat a lvl 9 cpu. I'd say I win about half of them but sometimes they just come out and obliterate me easily and I can't seem to touch them. Do I have to play differently? Am I just terrible? Because from what I hear, competitive smash players easily stomp lvl 9 cpus and it's embarrassing for them to ever lose against them.

I play for hours every single day and still can't beat them more than half the time.
Let's just say I'm in the same boat, as well.
 

Rhydon65

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Training against CPUs is highly inneffective. They dont learn your tricks or anything, the only way to really get better is by playing against people
The bulk of my training came from fighting CPUs. They're only ineffective once you can beat a level 9 consistently. Before that, it's best to work your way up one level at a time until their current level isn't challenging.
 

Roukiske

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The bulk of my training came from fighting CPUs. They're only ineffective once you can beat a level 9 consistently. Before that, it's best to work your way up one level at a time until their current level isn't challenging.
I will have to disagree. Beating level 9's is just learning the CPU's exploitable AI. They pretty much dodge all the time due to knowing frame advantage so I do a lot of quick moves such as jabs and roll/spot dodge punishes. Against a human (well... a competent human) this is not how you are supposed to play. A new player can develop bad habits if they don't know how to mix up their play style in this way, which can hurt them in the long run.
 

E-Mann

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I will have to disagree. Beating level 9's is just learning the CPU's exploitable AI. They pretty much dodge all the time due to knowing frame advantage so I do a lot of quick moves such as jabs and roll/spot dodge punishes. Against a human (well... a competent human) this is not how you are supposed to play. A new player can develop bad habits if they don't know how to mix up their play style in this way, which can hurt them in the long run.
No wonder I always get rekt.
 

Sodo

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A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
 

LightLV

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If you've ever fought an Amiibo, or a grappler character on high CPU in a fighting game, you'd realize that the CPU has to be specifically programmed to not obliterate you.

A few simple tweaks, and suddenly the CPU perfect shields every hitbox, sidesteps every grab, executes invincible properties with frame-perfect reaction and suddenly it's 100% unstoppable without exploiting a bug.

Fighting CPUs to learn to fight players is worthless, your playstyle has to go in a completely different direction to beat CPUs.



Edit:
Does anyone have the link to that guy who entered a Melee doubles tournament with Lv9 Luigi as his partner? It was glorious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlQy4jkfJWU

relevant
 
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Wintropy

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Do bear in mind that level 9 CPUs read your inputs, then punish accordingly.

The best way to improve is to play a human opponent and keep at it consistently.
 

AaronSMASH

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I'm not new though. I've played every Smash and never had trouble with lvl 9s before.

Training against CPUs is highly inneffective. They dont learn your tricks or anything, the only way to really get better is by playing against people
But the pros can beat lvl 9s easy with no problems at all so it has to be somewhat effective. If it didn't mean anything then they would get the same results as anyone else who knew the basics of the game.

Oh and for glory blows massive donkey ****. There's like a half second input delay that makes it completely useless and not fun at all. For the life of me I can't understand why they couldn't make it lagless like every single fps.

The bulk of my training came from fighting CPUs. They're only ineffective once you can beat a level 9 consistently. Before that, it's best to work your way up one level at a time until their current level isn't challenging.
8s aren't challenging. I 2 stock them almost every time. But 9s dodge/shield every single move especially air moves and spot dodge my grabs when I go for a grab and shield everything else.
 
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Wintropy

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8s aren't challenging. I 2 stock them almost every time. But 9s dodge/shield every single move especially air moves and spot dodge my grabs when I go for a grab and shield everything else.
Exactly. They read your inputs.

A computer character can adapt instantly because they know what you're going to do as you do it. This isn't conducive to good practice, because it just teaches you how to exploit input reads rather than adapt to human players' tactics.
 

AaronSMASH

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Exactly. They read your inputs.

A computer character can adapt instantly because they know what you're going to do as you do it. This isn't conducive to good practice, because it just teaches you how to exploit input reads rather than adapt to human players' tactics.
I'll never find someone willing to invest the kind of time I want so I can break into competitive smash. And as stated, for glory is complete garbage. I even got a USB ethernet adapter. No difference.

CPUs must mean something. It's not like the pros have to "exploit inputs" to beat them. They aren't completely useless. Just not useful for the mental part of the game.
 

Wintropy

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I'll never find someone willing to invest the kind of time I want so I can break into competitive smash. And as stated, for glory is complete garbage. I even got a USB ethernet adapter. No difference.

CPUs must mean something. It's not like the pros have to "exploit inputs" to beat them. They aren't completely useless. Just not useful for the mental part of the game.
CPUs are good training dummies. You can use them to hone your technical skill against a reactive opponent.

That said, you won't learn the nuances of how to play with other humans by fighting the CPU. If anything, it just teaches you nasty habits. Remember that CPUs are programmed to fight in a certain way. They don't adapt to your tactics in the same way that a human player does, they just punish you on reaction because that's how their internal code works.
 

AaronSMASH

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CPUs are good training dummies. You can use them to hone your technical skill against a reactive opponent.

That said, you won't learn the nuances of how to play with other humans by fighting the CPU. If anything, it just teaches you nasty habits. Remember that CPUs are programmed to fight in a certain way. They don't adapt to your tactics in the same way that a human player does, they just punish you on reaction because that's how their internal code works.
That's what I said. They aren't useless but won't help with the mental aspect. I just can't figure out why I can't beat them consistently even after playing every Smash game and every single day for hours since I got smash 4. I win like half of the time.
 
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Wintropy

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That's what I said. They aren't useless but won't help with the mental aspect. I just can't figure out why I can't beat them even after playing every Smash game and every single day for hours since I got smash 4.
Because level 9 CPUs require a certain kind of playstyle to beat. It doesn't take skill to beat them, it just takes patience to exploit their programmed reactions.
 

Evello

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But the pros can beat lvl 9s easy with no problems at all so it has to be somewhat effective. If it didn't mean anything then they would get the same results as anyone else who knew the basics of the game.
While playing against CPU's can help you get experience handling your character, higher level CPU's do not play like real people and thus can teach players really bad habits. CPU's know your attacks before they even come out, allowing them to dodge and shield you perfectly an absurd amount of the time. Real opponents are limited by human reaction time and attack recognition, so they can often be caught in non-true combos. This goes even for the pros. CPU's perfectly dodge out of combos at any opportunity, discouraging you from using a string that would work 95% of the time on real people.

They also don't really learn from you or adapt, letting you get away with spamming that any real player would punish quickly. The best players can definitely beat level 9's, because they can easily learn the CPU's patterns, and they are amazing at exploiting them. That's the biggest issue with CPU's of any level: they're predictable once you know a few tricks. For instance, you should never attack CPU's in the air; they frame-perfect airdodge 9/10 attacks. They are much more susceptible on the ground, although they react faster than a human with perfect shields a lot too. Because of all of this, grabs are very useful. They don't spotdodge all that much, so even blatant dash grabs are very effective. And because they don't learn how to predict you, you can spam any successful option to your heart's content.

Oh and for glory blows massive donkey ****. There's like a half second input delay that makes it completely useless and not fun at all. For the life of me I can't understand why they couldn't make it lagless like every single fps.
For Glory is a much better option for practice imo. It sounds like you might have a pretty bad internet connection, though, since my online play only lags ever so slightly.

And regarding your FPS comment, there is a very good reason SSB (and fighting games in general) cannot get away with so-called "lag-less" multiplayer. That reason is that it is no online play is lagless. Most FPS games (and racing games, RPG's, etc.) are server-based, which means each player's system is more or less independently running the match, while guessing where your opponents are using updates from a central server communicating with all the players. The game feels lagless to the players since their system is running things locally, but there are all sorts of hiccups that arise out of the fact that your system only knows where your opponent was the last time it got an update from the server, and thus can only approximate their current location and actions. Hence why you often will shoot an opponent dead on only to have them crouch away unharmed. They had already avoided your shot, your system just didn't know it until after you pulled the trigger. Same with racing games. In Mario Kart I've lined up perfect green shell shots only to have my opponent seemingly teleport across the track and avoid my item. In truth, they were never there to begin with, my system just predicted they would be.

In fighting games, you can't have each system guessing at where the opponent is and which attacks will land. All the hitboxes and input timings and such need to line up. SSB has purely P2P (peer-to-peer) multiplayer, where the systems communicate directly and all basically have to agree on where everybody is and what they are doing at all times. Hence the lag.
 
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Wintermelon43

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TBH you can still be an amazing, tournament winning player even if you lose to lvl 9 cpus.
 

Raijinken

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One thing playing CPUs will teach you is what is safe and what is not, since they punish so much more effectively than most humans.

Learning to beat them, aside from learning to exploit their AI (which, by the way, is exactly like learning to beat a mechanically skilled but predictable human player), essentially requires learning how to cover all of their options without opening yourself up to a punish. This is not a bad skill to learn, but as mentioned, you have to learn to do so at a sort of meta level - learn how to learn to beat your opponent, not how to win against your specific level 9 CPUs.
 

rosetta_stoned

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You might play every day, you might be decent or even a master of tech, you might be a fountain of knowledge from coming to these boards regularly. But the reason the pros or anyone good at this game can handidly beat a lvl 9 cpu without training for it is because to be good at this game you have to adapt on the fly to your opponent. While training to beat a lvl 9 cpu has little to no benefits of its own, quite frankly this shows you lack a fundamental aspect of this game if you can't figure out how to exploit a lvl 9 as your essentially trying to exploit each and every opponent you face in a similar way as EVERYONE has bad habbits - some are just harder to spot. Your likely playing a set, predictable pattern regardless of who you face and this needs to be addressed if you ever wish to be competitive in this game.
 
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MalcolmFlex

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Playing level 9s won't prepare you for a tournament; though it CAN increase your dodging and blocking abilities if you time it right and use the match against the CPU as a means to not fight back, but to avoid being hit. And that would translate in a normal match. However, they fight (as stated) much differently than their human counterpart would, so the best bet would be to find some friend-tags on these forums and practice against them. I find that in friend matches the lag can be somewhat more tamable than on regular FG mode. However, your BEST option would be to just enter any local tournaments and see how you do. Those are the players you want to compare yourself to; normal talent that you encounter online won't cut it.. I've actually played against a high-end tournament player and he destroyed me awhile back; but it benefited me greatly. If you play lesser talent online, you're only going to bring those tactics with you in tournament play, and those players won't fall for those same tactics that worked against the peanut gallery. I would just scout, join some tournaments and I guarantee you'll see vast improvements.
 

franniested

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I could very easily beat level 9 cpu's all day long. It does not transfer over to real people very well. It took a lot more to become good against people. It's a bunch of psychology and ****. Gotta be in their head, because they can make decisions that coms cannot. If possible, I highly suggest playing with real people to train. It does however, help you get your spacing, spikes, and tech type things more accurate. So it's better than nothing.
 

salaboB

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But the pros can beat lvl 9s easy with no problems at all so it has to be somewhat effective. If it didn't mean anything then they would get the same results as anyone else who knew the basics of the game.
Pros have good pattern recognition skills (So they can exploit opponents who don't adapt effectively). That allows them to figure out what beats level 9 cpus and exploit that.

It's not amazing timing on their part, it's just paying attention and learning what the ai won't react properly to.

Which I mean, is a great skill to have. But once you learn how to do it, you won't get anything more from level 9 cpus.
 

Axel311

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I think training against CPUs as a part of your training is fine as long as you are aware of the fact they don't adapt. Just don't use tactics when you play them that you know wouldn't work against a human player. For example, as Dedede i don't spam gordos against CPUs even though they get recked by that strategy because I know it won't work against a human player. As wario I don't spam the bike. Don't cheese them and use tactics you know wouldn't work against a real person, play the game straight.

Also playing against CPUs means you don't have lag to deal with online. When I went to my first tourney I played almost only For Glory and was a little shook up from the difference without online lag. Felt a lot faster.

Another good thing about CPU training vrs. For Glory is you can practice all the legal stages, for glory is final destination and omegas only.

But definitely don't train soley against CPUs. Gotta play against people most of the time. I do mostly online for glory, I'd say 80% of my time. But I do the other 20% against CPUs for the above reasons.

Practicing against a variety of real people in person is obviously best training strategy, but it's not realistic for most people.
 
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Conda

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I will have to disagree. Beating level 9's is just learning the CPU's exploitable AI. They pretty much dodge all the time due to knowing frame advantage so I do a lot of quick moves such as jabs and roll/spot dodge punishes. Against a human (well... a competent human) this is not how you are supposed to play. A new player can develop bad habits if they don't know how to mix up their play style in this way, which can hurt them in the long run.
That's why I always fight level 8 cpus. They're more random and less predictable, as well as much less hax when it comes to perfect shielding. Challenging yourself to beat them more and more easily is good training for new players who want to get really good at controlling their character.
 

franniested

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Playing level 8s isn't the way to go. They make predictable mistakes still. Just delayed shield or dodges. Most of the time the different decisions just end up getting them hitting when a 9 would've shielded or dodged.

@ Conda Conda
 
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mario15

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I'd like to get into competitive smash but I can't even consistently beat a lvl 9 cpu. I'd say I win about half of them but sometimes they just come out and obliterate me easily and I can't seem to touch them. Do I have to play differently? Am I just terrible? Because from what I hear, competitive smash players easily stomp lvl 9 cpus and it's embarrassing for them to ever lose against them.

I play for hours every single day and still can't beat them more than half the time.
Don't feel bad, Super Smash Bros. 4 has to have the most difficult computer players in the whole series. I've been playing the Smash Bros. games since I was about four years old, and the computers on Smash 4 still give me a run for my money. I can usually manage to beat them, but it's not easy, the characters I have the most trouble fighting are the ones with counter moves, like Marth, Ike, Lucario and so on. The computers just seem to counter with split second accuracy almost every time. The only advice I can rally give is that even though computers are smarter in this game, they still fall into predictable habits, and they rarely learn from mistakes, so exploit that. For example, say I'm Mario and I'm fighting a cpu Bowser, I just knocked him off the stage and he uses his up B to recover, but instead of grabbing the ledge to avoid a hit from me, he aims for the ground and leaves himself open for a smash attack (Or whatever move you want to use.). If I notice that Bowser keeps falling into that pattern, I can use that to my advantage. I know that's kind of a poor scenario, but it's just an idea, I hope it helps! If you like, we could play each other online sometime.
 

AuraBreak

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TBH you can still be an amazing, tournament winning player even if you lose to lvl 9 cpus.
I don't think you can be "tournament winning" but you can still be good. High level CPUs are pointless to practice on, anyway.

Smash 4 has online play, use that to your advantage, even if sometimes you come across unskilled players.
 
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Spooks

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Playing against level 8 CPUs is a good start. When you feel comfortable with your character try playing online. I think that is the best way to improve
 

Paxadin

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Training against CPUs is highly inneffective. They dont learn your tricks or anything, the only way to really get better is by playing against people
Here's a video I made about a month or two ago, it shows why CPUs aren't that effective.
 

1FC0

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I play for hours every single day and still can't beat them more than half the time.
Luckily for you beating CPU's is pretty irrelevant in the competitive scene. You do not have to be able to beat CPU's you have to beat players in the competitive scene. As such I would recommend that you stop practising against CPU's and start practising against humans because humans play differently then CPU's and thus probably require a different way of playing to beat.
 
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