Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[Yackabean]

I have footage of IZAC Dairing a Lucina on For Glory and getting a phoenix bomb out of the process and the combo I ended up getting was quite brutal to be fair. I'll try upload it sometime soon If I can.

To be honest though, I have been the only Toon Link so far who's probably nailed the instant z-drop. It's no easy trick. I've gotten a few other Toon Links interested in learning it now but even they can agree it is one of the most demanding AT's Toon Link has. What I like about Insant Z-drop myself is the ability to just nair and land with a bomb in my hand making me somewhat safe still. It also really confuses the opponent. I've had so many people come up to me in tourney now asking how on earth my bomb playstyle is so ridiculous.

Now I like the application you also mentioned Fox, specifically z-dropping a bomb on to a shield and forcing the shield to stay. Only problem is when the bomb bounces off the shield and thanks to Sakurai being an idiot. Catching bombs in this game is faaaar to easy. There's a guy in my scene who does nothing but catch the bombs that bounce off of his shield. So you have to be wary of that. Thankfully if you can predict the throw back to you it's relatively easy to catch back yourself. Have those few instances of Toon Link hot potato

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I have footage of IZAC Dairing a Lucina on For Glory and getting a phoenix bomb out of the process and the combo I ended up getting was quite brutal to be fair. I'll try upload it sometime soon If I can.

Sounds cool, I'd love to see it.

To be honest though, I have been the only Toon Link so far who's probably nailed the instant z-drop. It's no easy trick. I've gotten a few other Toon Links interested in learning it now but even they can agree it is one of the most demanding AT's Toon Link has. What I like about Insant Z-drop myself is the ability to just nair and land with a bomb in my hand making me somewhat safe still. It also really confuses the opponent. I've had so many people come up to me in tourney now asking how on earth my bomb playstyle is so ridiculous.

You're probably not that far off from your claim being true. There are other Toon's that use it but it still has the stigma attached to it that it did from Brawl back when practically no-one used IZAC even though it was considered one of our better AT's. I consider it to be even better in this game, due to the Bomb not hurting us allowing it to be used in very close proximity as well, but it's also riskier due to the potential of accidentally doing an aggressive rising Zair that will miss most characters and leave Toon completely open.

Now I like the application you also mentioned Fox, specifically z-dropping a bomb on to a shield and forcing the shield to stay. Only problem is when the bomb bounces off the shield and thanks to Sakurai being an idiot. Catching bombs in this game is faaaar to easy. There's a guy in my scene who does nothing but catch the bombs that bounce off of his shield. So you have to be wary of that. Thankfully if you can predict the throw back to you it's relatively easy to catch back yourself. Have those few instances of Toon Link hot potato

Ha, yeah, that's true. I sometimes forget just how long Toon's bomb timer is compared to Link's. Link has a tech, considered one of his best, that actually involves throwing the Bomb so that it lands without exploding upon the same horizontal surface. Link can get away with this because he can pressure the opponent for just long enough so that they won't be able to take advantage of picking the Bomb up before it explodes or so that they won't be able to pick it up at all. Link is probably the better character to drop bombs on people's shield's but Toon is probably the better character for dropping Bombs just in front of the opponent as Toon's Bombs will explode upon touching the ground while Link's won't. If the opponent is shielding they will have to continue to hold shield until after the explosion, but this is not the case for Link.

 

[Yackabean]

Something strange I found the other day abut Instant z-dropping a bomb the other day is if you drop the bomb just in front of the opponent and wait a second and Nair. Mostly on fatties you will get a triple hit.
Sounds complicated huh? What happens is the first hit of nair will extend the bombs hitbox behind you whilst also bringing them in to the back hit of Nair as well. Therefore I call it a triple hit. It's an interesting thing I found the other day which again is a bit demanding but a neat find.

 

[Deleted member]

"Instant Z-Drop (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out as he leaves the ground from jumping.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, press the Jump button, then as Toon is coming out of the Jump squat animation and just before he actually leaves the ground, press the Grab button while keeping the joystick in neutral.
Note: This is the most useful way to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. If you re-catch the Bomb with an aerial immediately after dropping it, this would be an IZAC. If you Z-drop the Bomb within the opponent's hurtbox, the Bomb will immediately explode on them, and since Z-dropping is lagless and the Bomb explosion doesn't hurt you when activated by an opponent's hurtbox, this leaves you free to combo out of the Bomb explosion with an aerial. If you are quick enough, you can actually re-catch the Bomb after it has exploded and then use it again, which is called a Phoenix Bomb. Otherwise, you can simply Z-drop it beside them which will explode on the ground a moment later after you're out of range, and this explosion can similarly be used to combo."

Z dropping from a ledge hop can be very useful, too, and z dropping out of hitstun is useful in some situations.The ledge hop one in particular is free damage if the opponent is underneath you, and I've even gotten stage spikes with it. Plus if the bomb is about to blow up and you just want to get rid of it, z dropping it if you're in hitstun or on the ledge is the fastest and safest way to do it. But yeah, I didn't see the other ways of instant z dropping get mentioned anywhere else, and really think they should be mentioned.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Something strange I found the other day abut Instant z-dropping a bomb the other day is if you drop the bomb just in front of the opponent and wait a second and Nair. Mostly on fatties you will get a triple hit.
Sounds complicated huh? What happens is the first hit of nair will extend the bombs hitbox behind you whilst also bringing them in to the back hit of Nair as well. Therefore I call it a triple hit. It's an interesting thing I found the other day which again is a bit demanding but a neat find.

So this is the 'Nair double hit' with the Bomb blowing up somewhere in the middle. I don't know what you're trying to say by 'the first hit of nair will extend the bombs hitbox behind you' though. Is the bomb's hitbox made active for longer? Because that's what you're saying, though I doubt that's what you mean to say.

"Instant Z-Drop (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out as he leaves the ground from jumping.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, press the Jump button, then as Toon is coming out of the Jump squat animation and just before he actually leaves the ground, press the Grab button while keeping the joystick in neutral.
Note: This is the most useful way to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. If you re-catch the Bomb with an aerial immediately after dropping it, this would be an IZAC. If you Z-drop the Bomb within the opponent's hurtbox, the Bomb will immediately explode on them, and since Z-dropping is lagless and the Bomb explosion doesn't hurt you when activated by an opponent's hurtbox, this leaves you free to combo out of the Bomb explosion with an aerial. If you are quick enough, you can actually re-catch the Bomb after it has exploded and then use it again, which is called a Phoenix Bomb. Otherwise, you can simply Z-drop it beside them which will explode on the ground a moment later after you're out of range, and this explosion can similarly be used to combo."

Z dropping from a ledge hop can be very useful, too, and z dropping out of hitstun is useful in some situations.The ledge hop one in particular is free damage if the opponent is underneath you, and I've even gotten stage spikes with it. Plus if the bomb is about to blow up and you just want to get rid of it, z dropping it if you're in hitstun or on the ledge is the fastest and safest way to do it. But yeah, I didn't see the other ways of instant z dropping get mentioned anywhere else, and really think they should be mentioned.

I mentioned the other ways to z-drop without a Zair in the 'z-drop' which is just above the 'instant z-drop'. There is also z-dropping just after using an aerial and after a footstool. I personally haven't found the other ways that useful and I wanted to put this particular way in the spotlight a bit, which is why I made the instant z-drop a separate tech.

 

[CURRY]

To be honest though, I have been the only Toon Link so far who's probably nailed the instant z-drop. It's no easy trick. I've gotten a few other Toon Links interested in learning it now but even they can agree it is one of the most demanding AT's Toon Link has. What I like about Insant Z-drop myself is the ability to just nair and land with a bomb in my hand making me somewhat safe still. It also really confuses the opponent. I've had so many people come up to me in tourney now asking how on earth my bomb playstyle is so ridiculous.

I really want to know: what do you map your buttons to? Do you just use default Z -> A?

 

[Yackabean]

So this is the 'Nair double hit' with the Bomb blowing up somewhere in the middle. I don't know what you're trying to say by 'the first hit of nair will extend the bombs hitbox behind you' though. Is the bomb's hitbox made active for longer? Because that's what you're saying, though I doubt that's what you mean to say.

It's difficult to explain.

When running towards an opponent. If you z-drop the bomb just in front of them without it exploding and perform a Nair. For some reason you will be guaranteed the Nair's double hit and the bomb explosion will also somehow connect. I'm not too sure what makes it work, maybe the nair extends their hurtbox whilst they are being hit?
I'll try upload it sometime this week.

I really want to know: what do you map your buttons to? Do you just use default Z -> A?

Yes, When I perform IZAC's in general I use Y for jumping. Z for dropping and A for ariel catching.
Precision is key. I practiced it a lot on 3DS when the game first came out. I'd say the easiest controllers to do it on are Pro Controller and Gamecube.
Pro Controller is probably best since the R button (If you set it to grab) is the easiet to press whilst the Gamecube controllers Z has more resistance to it. However I prefer Gamecube now because it's easier to perform just because of the position.

I even find 3DS relatively easy to pull of Instant Z-drops and IZAC now.

Sorry to double post but I found something kinda useful when applying Instant Z-drops that I think you're going to love Fox.
Take a look:
/watch?v=2DqRCELsQ5g
Just throw the link in to a Youtube URL.
You'll notice that doing this can force a foostool if they fail to shield it. If they do shield however, you are left with some options. Whilst they sit in shield panicking about the bomb you could even pull another right after Instant dropping that one.
I also found out that if you don't Dair after the footstool they are forced in to a get up option. Sadly not like a jab lock where they are forced to one get up option only though so you'll have to read the direction they roll / get up. But what makes this very good is that footstools CANNOT be tech'd.

This may be possible by even simply throwing the bomb downwards on the opponent, however it is much more difficult to land next to the opponent after the footstool. This is because when throwing the bomb downwards you have more cooldown and actually need to follow the DI of the opponent when doing it this way. Instant z-drop allows us to footstool them the moment it hits them giving us wider options than usual.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's difficult to explain.

When running towards an opponent. If you z-drop the bomb just in front of them without it exploding and perform a Nair. For some reason you will be guaranteed the Nair's double hit and the bomb explosion will also somehow connect. I'm not too sure what makes it work, maybe the nair extends their hurtbox whilst they are being hit?
I'll try upload it sometime this week.

So, maybe what happens is, the first hit of Nair connects, then the Bomb blast hits them which stops from getting launched by the Nair, leaving the second hit of Nair to connect. If this is how it works, then this is definitely a new tech as it works using different mechanics to the "Nair double hit'.

Sorry to double post but I found something kinda useful when applying Instant Z-drops that I think you're going to love Fox.
Take a look:
/watch?v=2DqRCELsQ5g
Just throw the link in to a Youtube URL.
You'll notice that doing this can force a foostool if they fail to shield it. If they do shield however, you are left with some options. Whilst they sit in shield panicking about the bomb you could even pull another right after Instant dropping that one.
I also found out that if you don't Dair after the footstool they are forced in to a get up option. Sadly not like a jab lock where they are forced to one get up option only though so you'll have to read the direction they roll / get up. But what makes this very good is that footstools CANNOT be tech'd.

This may be possible by even simply throwing the bomb downwards on the opponent, however it is much more difficult to land next to the opponent after the footstool. This is because when throwing the bomb downwards you have more cooldown and actually need to follow the DI of the opponent when doing it this way. Instant z-drop allows us to footstool them the moment it hits them giving us wider options than usual.

Ah yes, well this is a variation (an interesting one at that) of what the Link's call the Bombstool. They are able to make better use of it as it allows them to fast fall and hit with sour spot Nair to Lock the opponent (such that they then have a forced getup). The d-throw bomb method has been around since Brawl but this Instant Z-drop method is new thanks to the new Bomb mechanics that make it possible. I can't say for certain that the Link's didn't know about this already. In all likelihood tbh they probably did. But I like the fact that the footstool is made easier in this variation.

[I'm going to create a new discussion in the OP about all this with quotes etc. Edit: It would seem that I already have a discussion, so I just need to add some quotes.]

 

[Scamper52596]

So I also want to start learning how to Instant Z Drop, and eventually IZAC as well. Do you guys think I can learn how to do so if I map the Grab button to the L trigger on a GameCube Controller? I usually use the X button for grabbing because I find it easier for my finger to get to when I want to initiate a Grab, but I imagine that using it for techs like this would probably be really strenuous for my thumb alone. From what I read, I have to be really quick letting go of the Grab button before re-catching a bomb in the air to perform the IZAC, so do you think I could learn how to perform it with the L trigger as my Grab button, or do you think I would be able to pull it off more easily if I just tried learning to do it with the Z button?

 

[Deleted member]

So I also want to start learning how to Instant Z Drop, and eventually IZAC as well. Do you guys think I can learn how to do so if I map the Grab button to the L trigger on a GameCube Controller? I usually use the X button for grabbing because I find it easier for my finger to get to when I want to initiate a Grab, but I imagine that using it for techs like this would probably be really strenuous for my thumb alone. From what I read, I have to be really quick letting go of the Grab button before re-catching a bomb in the air to perform the IZAC, so do you think I could learn how to perform it with the L trigger as my Grab button, or do you think I would be able to pull it off more easily if I just tried learning to do it with the Z button?

I've been messing around with different controls, and setting X to grab has been the easiest for me for the Z bomb drop. I was thinking of completely switching X to grab because of it, but is it really that strenuous on your thumb? I haven't tried it with L being set to grab, but that sounds like it would be just as hard as doing it with Z, if not harder because of the springs.

 

[CURRY]

y -> x -> A? >.>
I might try to stick with y -> Z -> A, although...
It's a LOT easier for me to shorthop with my thumb rather than index finger, because I'm able to hold the button for a shorter time.
So I don't know. If there's a gimmick later on for easier inputs involving shield, that would be nice. :L

 

[Scamper52596]

I've been messing around with different controls, and setting X to grab has been the easiest for me for the Z bomb drop. I was thinking of completely switching X to grab because of it, but is it really that strenuous on your thumb? I haven't tried it with L being set to grab, but that sounds like it would be just as hard as doing it with Z, if not harder because of the springs.

It's not a problem for the Z Bomb Drop. In fact I was able to pull it off while playing with some of my friends tonight. I'm thinking it might be a problem trying to pull off the IZAC. Like CURRY said. y to x to A sounds like a lot for my thumb given the time frame it takes to perform the move. I'll keep messing around with it to see what works though.

 

[Yackabean]

Well you're main man here is using the Y > Z > A for IZAC's
Just wait until you start learning how to do IZAC's with Fairs, Bairs, Dairs or Uairs. Then it gets even more challenging xD

 

[ultrament2]

Hello everyone. I was practicing with a friend and we were talking about the Instant Z-Drop and we were wondering if it could be done out of a footstool. Upon testing, it can be done out of a footstool, regardless if you're footstooling agrounded opponent or an aerial opponent.

EDIT: I don't know how to read so it might be in the list of techs already.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly don't see IZAC being all that useful at this point. I think it was extremely useful when we had BLC, but now we cant autocancel aerials from IZAC like we could previously. Plus, I don't think it will come in handly at high level play. One thing that alot of people, especially TL mains in Brawl, seem to overcomplicate is tech skill/learning or using every technique we have in every situation. I just don't think its worth the time and risk to try in tournament when its not all that reliable anymore, especially when we can focus on just getting solid stage control and keepaway setup instead. If you have time to go up to your opponent and IZAC nair or whatever, that means you could've gone the safe route and just bomb to faired. Cause all in all, both options will lose to shield.

It can be useful in the Rosalina matchup, but I'd rather just play smart than rely on something that you have to do in 2 frames that doesnt autocancel, isnt very safe, and is situational.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hello everyone. I was practicing with a friend and we were talking about the Instant Z-Drop and we were wondering if it could be done out of a footstool. Upon testing, it can be done out of a footstool, regardless if you're footstooling agrounded opponent or an aerial opponent.

EDIT: I don't know how to read so it might be in the list of techs already.

I'd say 'check out the Note of the z-drop' but then you can't read apparently. In fact, why am I even replying to you then?

I honestly don't see IZAC being all that useful at this point. I think it was extremely useful when we had BLC, but now we cant autocancel aerials from IZAC like we could previously. Plus, I don't think it will come in handly at high level play. One thing that alot of people, especially TL mains in Brawl, seem to overcomplicate is tech skill/learning or using every technique we have in every situation. I just don't think its worth the time and risk to try in tournament when its not all that reliable anymore, especially when we can focus on just getting solid stage control and keepaway setup instead. If you have time to go up to your opponent and IZAC nair or whatever, that means you could've gone the safe route and just bomb to faired. Cause all in all, both options will lose to shield.

It can be useful in the Rosalina matchup, but I'd rather just play smart than rely on something that you have to do in 2 frames that doesnt autocancel, isnt very safe, and is situational.

This is all very true actually.

 

[Yackabean]

I've still made super good use of IZAC so personally I don't see a problem in learning it or not. It's not gonna make you become uberly good learning it. It's like any other tech you can learn. You must learn how to apply it, just like I have. Now, Zan is correct, It can be shielded but you cannot ignore that it is a mix up (a damn good one at that) Yes we can't act out of Nair instantly but against most characters who don't have ridiculous dash attacks, It's still stable enough when spaced.
I don't abuse IZAC like it was quickdraws in brawl. But I will use it from time to time as a mix up and it works don't get me wrong. You might think people can punish it easily but if you simply pull back and then run with a JC back throw you're pretty much covered. You don't even need to catch the bomb alternatively, delay the ariel and ignore the bomb leaving some shield pressure if you even want. IZAC it's self may not have uberly good options. But the tech Instant Z-Drop it's self has uses because of bombs no onger exploding in our face now.

Ok just wanted to update on something, credit to Dr. Artemis and Brandon finding this out.
You can actually instant z-drop without a tether if you footstool someone.
It seems to be if you want a tetherless z-drop in this game. You MUST jump off of something solid and involves some form of "jump squat" frames. Interesting. Because you can't actually JC Throw off of an opponents head. This is actually easy to perform than off the ground. So it gives you more time to actually pull off the instant z-drop.

Interesting find guys!

 

[ultrament2]

One more thing I'd like to add:
You can forward throw a Timer Bomb (Custom Move) and BFO with it. Would that information be more useful here or the customs thread?

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say 'check out the Note of the z-drop' but then you can't read apparently. In fact, why am I even replying to you then?

I'm sorry, Fox. We were both left so brain damaged from all the bouncing and dropping bombs on each others heads that it left us both unable to read. Plz forgive our brain damage-induced ***********, we did it for the fabulous Gay TL board.

In all seriousness, I finally got off my lazy ass and decided to read the first post.
"There are the previously known ways of doing this which is to SH/FH then instantly z-drop or to ledgehop and instantly z-drop.
I had often wondered why that was, but in any case, I found that the same thing can be done by z-dropping immediately after an aerial (I tested it with Nair, Bair, Fair and Uair), out of a footstool, and out of hitstun."

Oh well, so much for our "discovery". But yeah, to be fair, others didn't see this either since it wasn't mentioned in the instant z drop section, so they assumed from that that it wasn't known.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok just wanted to update on something, credit to Dr. Artemis and Brandon finding this out.
You can actually instant z-drop without a tether if you footstool someone.
It seems to be if you want a tetherless z-drop in this game. You MUST jump off of something solid and involves some form of "jump squat" frames. Interesting. Because you can't actually JC Throw off of an opponents head. This is actually easy to perform than off the ground. So it gives you more time to actually pull off the instant z-drop.

Interesting find guys!

I'm sorry, Fox. We were both left so brain damaged from all the bouncing and dropping bombs on each others heads that it left us both unable to read. Plz forgive our brain damage-induced ***********, we did it for the fabulous Gay TL board.

In all seriousness, I finally got off my lazy *** and decided to read the first post.
"There are the previously known ways of doing this which is to SH/FH then instantly z-drop or to ledgehop and instantly z-drop.
I had often wondered why that was, but in any case, I found that the same thing can be done by z-dropping immediately after an aerial (I tested it with Nair, Bair, Fair and Uair), out of a footstool, and out of hitstun."

Oh well, so much for our "discovery". But yeah, to be fair, others didn't see this either since it wasn't mentioned in the instant z drop section, so they assumed from that that it wasn't known.

First up, Yacka, watch that double posting please. If you add a couple of spaces and an 'Edit:' people will notice it and will read and respond to it. Even make it larger or bold for all I care. Feel free to message someone like myself if you really want a reply to your edit quickly.

Now as I said to ultrament2 in my previous post, you could have found all the information in the 'z-drop' which is just above the 'instant z-drop'. You would have found information like "As has been alluded to, it is possible to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. In order to do this, you must hit the grab button while holding a Bomb immediately after: a SH, a FH, a Ledgehop, a Footstool, an Aerial, or coming out of Hitstun."
The only reason why I made the instant z-drop separate was because it had specific interesting applications that none of the other variations had. So yeah, big deal, I guess I already found this stuff ages ago. It's good that you're trying to find stuff though. I would add however, that you would be greatly aided in your quest to find new things by reading through everything, as it will not only obviously tell you what has been found already, but it will give you ideas as to what hasn't been looked into yet.


Edit:

One more thing I'd like to add:
You can forward throw a Timer Bomb (Custom Move) and BFO with it. Would that information be more useful here or the customs thread?

I'll have a quick look into this later and I'll probably add that information to the BFO. Thanks.
And it's added. It looks like it's the same for both customs, so I added a 6th how to perform to the BFO specifically in relation to those two.

 

[SuperJRock88]

I have a technique that I don't think is covered. I've done it since the 3ds version but it works in wii U also. I call it the toon spike, roll to the very edge, take a half step back, and jump and dair. If someone recovers high, they will be spiked directly down off the stage. For larger characters it is important to take that half step away from the ledge because you can actually slide over the character and commit a SD. This attack also can hit through the stage, and in addition, there is always the chance to catch someone in their vulnerable edge grab frame. This technique can be air dodged, but I have mained toon link as one of my primaries and I've got 2,500 battles alone on Wii u, and I have caught many, many unsuspecting people with this technique. Enjoy everyone.

 

[ultrament2]

Alright, I have yet another technique that might be useful. I've been debating with others to whether or not this is useful or if it's just mechanics but in none of the other Smash games have this existed. I call it "Rerun"
What's Rerun? Rerun is running after running off a platform. It's performed by running off a platform and landing WHILE holding your stick in a direction. Applications of this? This means you can run in the opposite after running off a platform. I found this out by trying to find if I could run off stage,jump and bair'd to stagespike to practice my stage spiking. Missing the ledge, I landed and suffered the bairs landing lag. After the landing lag happened, I found that I was dashing out of my lag in the direction I had held. What does this mean, technical wise? I don't know. I've only tested it with Toon Link and Dark Pit but I feel characters with better jumps and run speeds could get better use out of this, including Toon Link.
Input wise:
Dash (Off Platform) -> Jump -> Hold Opposite Direction
When you land, you'll run out of the lag. Easy. It can be done out of an Up B's landing lag, too PROVIDED YOU MISS THE LEDGE. And that's about it.
It's simple, easy, and it might just be mechanics but I feel not many people know about it which is why I'm posting it here.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I have a technique that I don't think is covered. I've done it since the 3ds version but it works in wii U also. I call it the toon spike, roll to the very edge, take a half step back, and jump and dair. If someone recovers high, they will be spiked directly down off the stage. For larger characters it is important to take that half step away from the ledge because you can actually slide over the character and commit a SD. This attack also can hit through the stage, and in addition, there is always the chance to catch someone in their vulnerable edge grab frame. This technique can be air dodged, but I have mained toon link as one of my primaries and I've got 2,500 battles alone on Wii u, and I have caught many, many unsuspecting people with this technique. Enjoy everyone.

I wouldn't call this a technique, and the only reason why it isn't listed is because it's fairly common knowledge. I'm not sure why you're bothering to roll to the edge when you can just walk/run. Also, there's no reason at all to take a small step away from the ledge and further toward the centre of the stage; you can control Toon's aerial movement after you've connected with the Dair, so if anything you could be ever so slightly off stage and still land back on stage.

Alright, I have yet another technique that might be useful. I've been debating with others to whether or not this is useful or if it's just mechanics but in none of the other Smash games have this existed. I call it "Rerun"
What's Rerun? Rerun is running after running off a platform. It's performed by running off a platform and landing WHILE holding your stick in a direction. Applications of this? This means you can run in the opposite after running off a platform. I found this out by trying to find if I could run off stage,jump and bair'd to stagespike to practice my stage spiking. Missing the ledge, I landed and suffered the bairs landing lag. After the landing lag happened, I found that I was dashing out of my lag in the direction I had held. What does this mean, technical wise? I don't know. I've only tested it with Toon Link and Dark Pit but I feel characters with better jumps and run speeds could get better use out of this, including Toon Link.
Input wise:
Dash (Off Platform) -> Jump -> Hold Opposite Direction
When you land, you'll run out of the lag. Easy. It can be done out of an Up B's landing lag, too PROVIDED YOU MISS THE LEDGE. And that's about it.
It's simple, easy, and it might just be mechanics but I feel not many people know about it which is why I'm posting it here.

This is probably another example of something that I would have called common knowledge (though in this case I guess it's possible that people weren't aware). It's kind of like how you don't need to re-dash out of a JC throw if you use the c-stick (set to smash) to throw the bomb. It's just a slight change in smash 4 that I figured everyone would know by now by simply playing the game enough.

To clarify however, because I don't think you know exactly what the root mechanic behind this is, in smash 4 we were granted a new animation, that is, a front flip when characters run off the side of a platform or the stage. This was more than just an animation however; it signalled a new mechanic. If you are too close to the edge when you attempt to dash off, you won't get the flip. This is because you haven't transitioned from a Dash to a Run yet. You only get the flip when you Run off the edge. What this flip does is it saves your hard-directional input so that the very next time you land and are able to move, if you are holding a direction, it will automatically Dash provided that in-between the flip and your landing you were not hit at any point and also provided that you did not pull a bomb, throw a bomb, shoot an arrow, throw a rang, or footstool someone.

 

[SuperJRock88]

Rolling to the edge will maximize how close you are to off stage. It really doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get just barely off the complete end of the stage so you don't SD off accidently by sliding over a heavier character in your dair. Usually you can just roll because the opponent is recovering, obviously situational but for simplicity's sake that is how to pull it off. Also, I'm aware that you can control his movement after dair, but if you miss, and slide over a shielded character or something(or even hit a heavy and connect) you won't be making it back with that as you'll still be in mid-plunge and over the pit. Anyways, I just was trying to help fellow toon link players.

 

[ultrament2]

ah alright
new mechanic
thanks dude
That actually helps a lot with explaining it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Rolling to the edge will maximize how close you are to off stage. It really doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get just barely off the complete end of the stage so you don't SD off accidently by sliding over a heavier character in your dair. Usually you can just roll because the opponent is recovering, obviously situational but for simplicity's sake that is how to pull it off. Also, I'm aware that you can control his movement after dair, but if you miss, and slide over a shielded character or something(or even hit a heavy and connect) you won't be making it back with that as you'll still be in mid-plunge and over the pit. Anyways, I just was trying to help fellow toon link players.

If you want to do a telegraphed roll to the edge every time you're about to try and spike someone, that's your business. It is possible to be pushed off the edge of the stage by an opponent's character model after you've daired them if they are on the side of you closer to the centre of the stage and they are on low percents, but then, if I were using Dair that close to the edge, I'd be holding towards the centre of the stage just like I said, so that I easily land back on stage, and so it doesn't matter if you are right up against the edge. You can control your movement after Dair connects, even if it connects on their shield, and it will always allow you to land back on stage regardless of the opponent's character model pushing you if you've jumped up and Dair'd from the very edge, so I don't know what you're worried about.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I invoke the right of a topic creator announcing a change to the OP as an exception to the double posting rule XD. I'm not setting a bad example or anything.

So guys, we have a new AT, or rather I was reading through some old threads in the competitive discussion from way back in July 2014 and found an overlooked discovery to do with the turnaround cancel; I ran some tests on it and found that its properties were well worth noting and could prove to be very useful for us, so I added it as a new AT. You'll find it in the second post of this thread just under the JC Throw. I called it the TC Throw.

 

[ultrament2]

TC Throw? Sounds bretty guud :DDDD

 

[Dizzity Dah (DahWeirdo)]

I love the phoenix bomb so much... I get it a lot when I do the BFO, or a JC slide :D also I'm trying the IZAC/ZAC and its really hard :I, does it have to be from the jump off the floor? or can it be in mid air too?

 

[Deleted member]

I love the phoenix bomb so much... I get it a lot when I do the BFO, or a JC slide :D also I'm trying the IZAC/ZAC and its really hard :I, does it have to be from the jump off the floor? or can it be in mid air too?

As far as anyone knows, yes, it does have to be from the floor. It might be possible to do it from a footstool jump though if that counts, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. I'm terrible at landing footstools, so I haven't been able to test it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I love the phoenix bomb so much... I get it a lot when I do the BFO, or a JC slide :D also I'm trying the IZAC/ZAC and its really hard :I, does it have to be from the jump off the floor? or can it be in mid air too?

It's like this, the first step to doing a Z-drop Aerial Catch is the Z-drop, and this must be done without Zair coming out. There are a few known ways to do this, namely, you must hit the grab button while holding a Bomb immediately after: a SH, a FH, a Ledgehop, a Footstool, an Aerial, or coming out of Hitstun. So let's say that you Z-drop it in one of these ways. The only method of z-dropping without Zair that won't allow you to catch the Bomb with an aerial afterwards, is z-dropping out of a ledgehop.

 

[Halfy]

So, as we all know, the dair is very easy to punish. But, there are situations where it is useable. For instance, it can be used as a punisher if you don't feel like using the dash attack. I know it can be used for spiking if you use it at the right time at a ledge. So, if you think of another use for the dair...

I found some footage on my 3ds, hope this will do for now

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Alright it's official. Custom 2 Up-special is the best. Not only is this thing designed to kill at ridiculously low percents which you can then recover from if you have a Bomb (I would actually recommend the normal bomb and then just do other things like throw a rang before pulling the Up-B out and dragging the opponent off to the side blast zone), in fact it starts malfunctioning at higher percents, but I just figured out how to make it our best recovery move. (Artemis mentioned this to me a while ago but at the time I couldn't figure it out.)

Below 10%, if a normal Bomb explodes while you're holding it, using Up-B asap will give you an insane diagonally upwards recovery boost that puts our other recoveries to shame.

Anywhere above 10%, a normal bomb explosion will still allow you to do this insane recovery, only you now have to time your Up-B. It's not difficult, don't worry. Essentially, you want to hit Up-B as you are coming back down from being hit but before you pass the imaginary horizontal line that indicates where you were before the explosion. (This imaginary line starts becoming redundant at higher percents, but by then you'll have a feeling for how far you need to fall.) If you do it too early, you'll use Up-B on the spot, only going upwards, and you won't move horizontally very much at all. If you use it too late, you'll get the normal horizontal recovery Up-B.

This doesn't just have to be with normal Bombs either, it's just that I prefer them for using Up-B to kill with as it is less telegraphed (in fact, this recovery trick comes in handy when you use the Up-B too soon and you end up falling a long way down before the bomb explodes, and then woosh, you use the Up-B at the right time and fly up back safely to the stage and recovery easilly).
You can do this recovery trick out of being hit by absolutely anything (well, pretty much anything) on any percent. It's just a matter of timing. It's later than when you can act immediately out of the hitstun, but sooner than how long it takes for the momentum boost to wear off. You'll get the hang of it.

Customs Toon Link just became ridiculous.


Edit: I'm not going to lie though, this is the most difficult version of Toon to use and get used to.

 

[ultrament2]

Anywhere above 10%, a normal bomb explosion will still allow you to do this insane recovery, only you now have to time your Up-B. It's not difficult, don't worry. Essentially, you want to hit Up-B as you are coming back down from being hit but before you pass the imaginary horizontal line that indicates where you were before the explosion. (This imaginary line starts becoming redundant at higher percents, but by then you'll have a feeling for how far you need to fall.) If you do it too early, you'll use Up-B on the spot, only going upwards, and you won't move horizontally very much at all. If you use it too late, you'll get the normal horizontal recovery Up-B.

Customs Toon Link just became ridiculous.

Could I get links to this in action? :o

 

[Deleted member]

Could I get links to this in action? :o

I haven't seen any videos of it especially with how underrated and underused the hurricane spin is, but it's pretty easy to pull off in training mode. You'll know it when you've gotten it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Could I get links to this in action? :o

Judging by the fact that you quoted that particular paragraph, all I can say is that you'll just have to mess round with the timing yourself. I don't have the equipment to make youtube vids. Just remember that if you get the normal Up-B hurricane spin you did it too late, and if you get the lame small vertical recovery version, you did it too early. Eventually you'll get to the point where you'll just know when you're meant to do it.

Edit: Btw, I've added this as a new AT.

 

[ultrament2]

That works. I'll make some ****ty quality vids if I get it down. Or ask Alex or someone in the social chat to fite me m80 and stream it/record. Or we could ask Yacka or someone similar. But thanks again!

PS. ****ty quality means cellphone quality

 

[ephOE]

Hello Toon Link friends. I'm considering moving Toon Link from my secondary to my main, and this thread has been pretty helpful.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on different options out of Jab 2. Grab might be the most useful, especially if they try to land and shield. Grounded Up B has actually been working for me as well. I feel like Up Smash or F Smash shouldn't really be reliable but I've gotten both to work out a couple of times.

I haven't tried Utilt yet, but thinking about it I feel it could work, especially against heavier characters or ones with larger hurtboxes, at least. Might be a useful way to get early Utilt strings + follow ups started, since Toon Link's jab isn't terribly slow and has okay range to intercept approaches with.

 

[Scamper52596]

@ ephOE
Hey there! I've seen Toon Links short hop to Nair as an option out of Jab 2. Could be useful for trying to keep opponents out of your space if you're playing the heavy zoning game in the match up. Definitely keep experimenting with what works best against certain characters.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hello Toon Link friends. I'm considering moving Toon Link from my secondary to my main, and this thread has been pretty helpful.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on different options out of Jab 2. Grab might be the most useful, especially if they try to land and shield. Grounded Up B has actually been working for me as well. I feel like Up Smash or F Smash shouldn't really be reliable but I've gotten both to work out a couple of times.

I haven't tried Utilt yet, but thinking about it I feel it could work, especially against heavier characters or ones with larger hurtboxes, at least. Might be a useful way to get early Utilt strings + follow ups started, since Toon Link's jab isn't terribly slow and has okay range to intercept approaches with.

You'd be interested to know that you actually have a slightly better frame advantage out of Jab 1 than you do out of Jab 2 until very high percents. For example, if you Jab a Fox then shield and have Fox immediately try to jab you, you will always powershield (because Jab 1 has set-knockback) but if you try the same with Jab 2, Fox will actually Jab you right up until he's at 105% in training mode, and it's only beyond this that the slight amount of growth knockback in Jab 2 starts to help. So if anything, your question should be, what are my thoughts on the different options out of Jab 1 (which incidentally also gives the opponent less time to react). [The same results can be seen if you look at when a Jiggs can DJ compared to when you can shield after a Jab 1 or 2. The results show that Jab 1 is superior.]
But we're not done analysing Jab 1 yet. It has set-knockback, but it will affect different characters in different ways due to their fall-speed, meaning that you'll actually have a different amount of frame (dis)advantage over different characters and also some options will be more risky on certain characters. Jab to Grab is a pretty bad option against someone like Jiggs for example. Some characters are forced to land, meaning they have to go through landing lag on top of the hitstun our Jab inflicts. (Hint: there aren't many.) But at the same time, those characters are better able to shield or roll/spotdodge. Nothing is guaranteed out of our Jab, all we have are different options with different risks. That means that the answer to your question will unfortunately depend almost entirely on the player you are versing and the options they tend to take in response to getting Jabbed. So pick a follow up, see what the opponent does and change your game-plan for next time if necessary, or else condition the opponent to think that they are making the right decision and then hard-counter that option they keep taking when it best benefits you.