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Moffe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
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90
As previously mentioned, if the bomb hits at the right time the uair is guaranteed, at least on some characters. I've managed to do it on DK at 0% with no rage, and I think it was guaranteed.

Also, do throws stale? I don't notice any difference after using the same throw repeatedly.

I've also been thinking about staling moves purposely to make it easier to follow up from them, for example spamming uptilt between the opponent's lives.
With the bomb you can do it pretty much on anyone with correct timing, just not very high percents.

but I don't think your statement on up throw to uair is true on anything, according to my experience.

Also most people I utilt mash jump like crazy (or aerial if they have super quick fra data), don't think that grab after utilts is gonna do much good, at least not vs good players (which is the players to worry about).
 
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Ukkiez

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
7
Hey,

Just wanted to bring some attention to a different, interesting recovery option for certain stages.
Remembering that you can cancel your tether; if you get hit offstage and tether to the ledge, just let yourself swing along, cancel it to gain momentum and go under the stage to the other ledge. (This even works on battlefield if done correctly). The upside of this choice is that you gain ledge invincibility on the other side since you never touched the other ledge. Of course you're putting yourself in danger, but it's a fun mix-up nonetheless. :>

Probably already known, but likely forgotten, so I'm bringing in some love for this option.
 

RancidLeaf

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A while back when the game wasn't yet out for Wii U, I started a list which showed at which percents u-tilt > u-air were true combos, it had the maximum percentages at which it would be a true combo (training counter) and also the minimum percentage at which it would kill (in 3DS Final Destination).

I got a bit discouraged somewhere along the way and stopped the list, seeing how the information was kinda bad since I did it in training where there is no rage. I might start working on the list again since I now own a Wii U, and getting two controls on normal smash isn't a chore, as it was for me in 3DS (only have one), therefore producing more accurate results.

Here is where I left off with the list, since the list was for personal use, not all characters where put on it; I only included characters that where being used in our local scene.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZsVZNCaDm9sFWpG7h44L0A-K1iEkBhFlwfyEP3Vxrg/edit?usp=sharing

Also, falling u-air > u-air I believe is a thing at certain percentages according to the training counter. I'll confirm later, whenever I get back to testing. ***confirmed. check edit no. 3

EDIT:
1 - Grammar
2 - I believe u-tilt > u-air for kills is a very important thing to keep in mind, for there is a small window (from minimum percent needed to kill to maximum percent to link utilt > uair while still being true combo) where tink can be lethal, and end a stock really early.
3 - Falling u-air confirmed as a true combo. Tested against Mario in training, it seems to work until a percentage where you have to double jump to reach Mario, afterwards it's not guaranteed and the oponent can and will most likely jump out of it (or air dodge)
 
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Solcen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
1
I'm not sure if anyone else has found this or not, but I was fooling around with tinks C4 today. There's a few frames where grab immediately buffers after you drop the C4, essentially giving you a C4 tomahawk grab.

Could be useful for faking someone out because of the bomb in hand, but at the same time could potentially be useless.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFm0x0LY_4k sorry for the bad quality.
 

LotadAlittle

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I'm not sure if anyone else has found this or not, but I was fooling around with tinks C4 today. There's a few frames where grab immediately buffers after you drop the C4, essentially giving you a C4 tomahawk grab.

Could be useful for faking someone out because of the bomb in hand, but at the same time could potentially be useless.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFm0x0LY_4k sorry for the bad quality.
I can see use in this. If you see somebody frequently shielding when you approach with a bomb in hand you could use this as a nice mix up.
 
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Lucy_ya dawg

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May 24, 2015
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or throw the bomb and grab them out of their shield.

Hey can someone test this?

i did up throw to someone and the bomb hit me during the grab, but since the grab never finished they went at this weird angle offstage (the prepatch d smash angle)
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Hey can someone test this?

i did up throw to someone and the bomb hit me during the grab, but since the grab never finished they went at this weird angle offstage (the prepatch d smash angle)
U-throw has two hits. The first does 5% and when used on the thrown opponent the second hit will hit immediately after hitlag and do 2%. The first hit is more designed for dealing with multiple people. It had the same properties in brawl. If you get hit by the initial swing, it will hit you at around the same kind of angle that the first hit of d-smash will. Unlike the d-smash however, the 5% hit has growth knockback so the strength will vary depending on the opponent's percent. Unfortunately, it only starts to gimp at around 90% and kill at around 130%. Not to mention that interrupting the throw with the bomb explosion is super difficult to time and space correctly, especially if the character is big. If you plan on throwing the bomb up and then have it come down on you, you need to have the bomb land infront of you because of the way the up-throw puts the character above your head and slightly behind you, otherwise with the timing required they will just get hit by the bomb.
 

Moffe

Smash Apprentice
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Th
I'm not sure if anyone else has found this or not, but I was fooling around with tinks C4 today. There's a few frames where grab immediately buffers after you drop the C4, essentially giving you a C4 tomahawk grab.

Could be useful for faking someone out because of the bomb in hand, but at the same time could potentially be useless.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFm0x0LY_4k sorry for the bad quality.
nice!

I wonder.. can you follow up any of the throws with airdodge canceled throw? Like up throw -> full hop -> airdodge throw -> double jump aerial
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I wonder.. can you follow up any of the throws with airdodge canceled throw? Like up throw -> full hop -> airdodge throw -> double jump aerial
Nice idea. While I haven't been able to register the bomb throw as a consecutive hit yet, I can tell you that it is pretty close. Atm, at the very least what we have here is a reliable string at lower percents (medium percents as well for fast fallers and heavy weights) that lets us do e.g. u-throw to FH instant bomb throw to any aerial. Against a character like Fox who is a fast faller and is a relative light-weight, you have a pretty reliable kill string from a grab at around 70% (just delay the U-air after the DJ slightly so that it hits when Fox is more towards the peak of the bomb blast knockback).
 

ephOE

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U-throw has two hits. The first does 5% and when used on the thrown opponent the second hit will hit immediately after hitstun and do 2%. The first hit is more designed for dealing with multiple people. It had the same properties in brawl. If you get hit by the initial swing, it will hit you at around the same kind of angle that the first hit of d-smash will. Unlike the d-smash however, the 5% hit has growth knockback so the strength will vary depending on the opponent's percent. Unfortunately, it only starts to gimp at around 90% and kill at around 130%. Not to mention that interrupting the throw with the bomb explosion is super difficult to time and space correctly, especially if the character is big. If you plan on throwing the bomb up and then have it come down on you, you need to have the bomb land infront of you because of the way the up-throw puts the character above your head and slightly behind you, otherwise with the timing required they will just get hit by the bomb.
I'd never seen this before and just noticed it the other day in doubles. I up threw one character and the slash hit the other player and had the Ftilt/old D smash knockback effect that sends the other player at a horrific angle to recover from. No idea how one would consistently set this up in a doubles game though.

Speaking of doubles, something my partner and I have found useful is Toon Link's low % Utilt strings > partner footstool. Definitely some possibilities there.
 
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ephOE

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So apparently we can blow up people and recatch the bomb on the frame it blows up?
It's in the OP under "Phoenix Bomb"

EDIT: Speaking of the OP, looks like Boomerang Glide and Glide Reversal are no longer with us after the 1.0.8 patch. Shame, because Glide Reversals were very useful.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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It's in the OP under "Phoenix Bomb"

EDIT: Speaking of the OP, looks like Boomerang Glide and Glide Reversal are no longer with us after the 1.0.8 patch. Shame, because Glide Reversals were very useful.
I plan to update the OP to bring it in line with 1.0.8 when I'm not busy.

Edit: Both posts in the OP have been updated.
 
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QT_Lynx

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With toon link if you catch a boomerang while running you can instantly run in the other direction by flicking the control stick in the opposite direction of which you are running. Is this useful at all?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I might just make a general AT concerning the lag that can be avoided by catching the boomerang. In smash 4 the amount of time spent catching the boomerang is significantly less than it was in Brawl. In Brawl the idea was always to avoid the catching animation pretty much at all costs. There were some known ways that catching it could benefit you, such as cancelling the extreme landing lag of Dair, but beyond that, catching the boomerang was a hindrance.
Now however, we may want to re-think this.

Catching the boomerang takes only 9 frames in smash 4 (this is so for both the custom boomerangs as well), meaning that if timed/positioned right you can cut out lag from many other things.
Dair has 40 frames of landing lag, but we already knew that would be clearly beneficial.
Fair has 17 frames of landing lag, so catching the boomerang at the perfect time as you land can almost half your lag.
Uair has 21 frames of landing lag.
Bair has 22 frames of landing lag.
Nair has 12 frames of landing lag, so while technically you could shave off 3 frames, I don't think it's worth trying in practice.
Zair only has 8 frames of landing lag.
Airdodge has 21 frames of landing lag. This means that if you airdodge into the ground, airdodge then Zair, or airdodge then Zair while holding a bomb, you can cut out over half the landing lag if you catch the boomerang upon landing.
As for catching the boomerang while running to allow you to dash back in the opposite direction, if this is what you want to do, then the only alternatives out of a run are to do a dash turn or to dash back after a skid. A dash turn takes around 24 frames to really get going in the other direction while dashing back after a skid takes 19 frames, so there's a definite improvement there too if speed is what you're after. It would be better if this was thought of more generally though, so instead of just being a way to run back in the other direction, it should be thought of as the fastest way to return to neutral (with all options available including dash) out of a Run. You can of course do certain actions directly out of a Run however so catching the boomerang out of a Run will not be the fastest way to do everything out of a Run, just some things.

As for actually applying any of this, at this stage I think that the fast boomerang may actually be the way to go simply due to the fact that it always follows a direct path back in the direction it originally came from, and because of the fact that it will always require the same timing because the boomerang will always go forwards the same distance even if it hits, and because it's so fast meaning there's more chance of it being caught immediately after landing.

Actually this is pretty cool.
With the fast boomerang you can do stuff like smash throw forwards, immediate SH aerial (e.g. Fair) FF if necessary and you immediately catch the boomerang upon landing, and there really is a notable difference in lag.
You can also throw the boomerang forwards then run at it and do e.g. U-tilts/Jabs/F-smash forwards seemingly straight of a Run, which is pretty cool, and if you're using the fast boomerang it means you can always get in nice and close to the opponent for when you catch the boomerang.
Fast boomerang smash throw forwards to immediate backwards SH Airdodge to Zair let's us land with the 9 frames of boomerang catch lag, similar to our normal Zair landing lag, which bypasses the airdodge lag nonsense.
It's worth looking into imo.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Fox Is Openly Deceptive Can Toon Link bombslide like Link can? I'll post this here in case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoFBcIi_glk
Yes and no. - my favourite answer.
Yes Toon can do the fake-out animations. No he doesn't get any slide from any of the bombslides, just like in Brawl. So all the bombslide technology is useless to him. In the Brawl Toon AT thread I had a few of the fake-out variations listed, but when bringing it over to smash 4 I cut down on a lot of really useless stuff, the fake-out bombslides included. Toon is much better off just sticking with JC Throws.

What I'm most interested in however is the fact that you linked me to a video of bombsliding... even though I wrote the book on bombsliding... the book that the video was actually based on. Am I to assume that a regular at the Link boards has not yet looked at Link's AT thread? Tut-tut XD.
 

Rizen

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Yes and no. - my favourite answer.
Yes Toon can do the fake-out animations. No he doesn't get any slide from any of the bombslides, just like in Brawl. So all the bombslide technology is useless to him. In the Brawl Toon AT thread I had a few of the fake-out variations listed, but when bringing it over to smash 4 I cut down on a lot of really useless stuff, the fake-out bombslides included. Toon is much better off just sticking with JC Throws.

What I'm most interested in however is the fact that you linked me to a video of bombsliding... even though I wrote the book on bombsliding... the book that the video was actually based on. Am I to assume that a regular at the Link boards has not yet looked at Link's AT thread? Tut-tut XD.
Thanks, that's what I thought. I wanted to confirm with the TL boards. The video was more meant as a resource for the TLs if it worked and not trying to imply you didn't know it.
 

QT_Lynx

Smash Rookie
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Instant z drop bomb seems like a safe alternative/ mixup to jc throw out of a dash considering you can get a fair, uair, nair, or footstool if the bomb hits.
 

Brickbox

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Is there any videos out there covering all/most of these techs?
Im trying to get the hang of these but it is kinda hard when I don't know what these look like when done correctly.

Either way this thread has been super useful to me!
 

Moffe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
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The most useful ones are used commonly by some of the top TLs :) Check out their matches. Then you can see why and when to use them also.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Is there any videos out there covering all/most of these techs?
Im trying to get the hang of these but it is kinda hard when I don't know what these look like when done correctly.

Either way this thread has been super useful to me!
Anything in particular you're having trouble with? Perhaps we could find a video that it's being used in or else find a better way of explaining it.
 

Halfy

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I know its probably already known by now, but by performing a BFO, you can regrab the bomb with an airdodge. Since airdodge throws are still a thing, this means you can rethrow the bomb in either the same direction, or a different direction.
Not sure how useful this really is, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
 
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Joined
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I know its probably already known by now, but by performing a BFO, you can regrab the bomb with an airdodge. Since airdodge throws are still a thing, this means you can rethrow the bomb in either the same direction, or a different direction.
Not sure how useful this really is, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
Oh! Does the throw from the airdodge throw actually cancel the lag when you perform it correctly? I never thought about this for some reason, nice idea!
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I know its probably already known by now, but by performing a BFO, you can regrab the bomb with an airdodge. Since airdodge throws are still a thing, this means you can rethrow the bomb in either the same direction, or a different direction.
Not sure how useful this really is, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
It's funny because in Brawl, this was the BFO. The very act of throwing the bomb, catching and re-throwing it was what the BFO was all about. This is reflected in the way I describe the BFO in the OP. Of course back in brawl, the reason why the re-throwing part was the dominant use was because we had the luxury of simply z-dropping which allowed us to use aerials while holding a bomb whenever we wanted, so the interesting part back in Brawl was the fact that you could throw the bomb then 'fake them out' by mixing up the timing in which the bomb was thrown.

So yeah, it's known XD.

And yes, there is no airdodge lag if you immediately cancel the airdodge with a bomb throw. This is mentioned in the 'instant bomb throw' AT.

Maybe read the second post of the OP if you haven't already.
 

LotadAlittle

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So while thinking of stuff to put in a joke combo video I'm making for Tink I wondered if there was anyway Tink could do something similar to Melee Fox's sh double laser, and... he can! However I feel it may even have some competitive use! This is a tech that I call: Short hop double bomb or, SHDB for short (wow so imaginative isn't it). I feel that if it's useful for anything it will be walling out opponents with bombs, punishing a broken shield/sleeping jiggly or just style points.
Here's a video I made to show how it looks (instructions in description)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlS2wIR0AOc

I'll probably post more of these so if you wanna see them then you could sub to my channel (shameless promoting) but I'll probably post them here anyway
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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So while thinking of stuff to put in a joke combo video I'm making for Tink I wondered if there was anyway Tink could do something similar to Melee Fox's sh double laser, and... he can! However I feel it may even have some competitive use! This is a tech that I call: Short hop double bomb or, SHDB for short (wow so imaginative isn't it). I feel that if it's useful for anything it will be walling out opponents with bombs, punishing a broken shield/sleeping jiggly or just style points.
Here's a video I made to show how it looks (instructions in description)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlS2wIR0AOc

I'll probably post more of these so if you wanna see them then you could sub to my channel (shameless promoting) but I'll probably post them here anyway
If you'll just look in the OP of this thread you'll find something strangely similar to what you're talking about. It's also called the SHDB, because it's the same thing.
 

LotadAlittle

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If you'll just look in the OP of this thread you'll find something strangely similar to what you're talking about. It's also called the SHDB, because it's the same thing.
Was it? I hadn't remembered ever seeing anything like it in the AT list. I'll make sure to double check before I post anything here again like that. Thanks for telling me though.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Was it? I hadn't remembered ever seeing anything like it in the AT list. I'll make sure to double check before I post anything here again like that. Thanks for telling me though.
Yeah it's been known since brawl. From memory I believe Hyro discovered it.
Yep.
http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech-short-hop-double-bomb-shdb.231339/ And so began the legend of the spaghetti cat.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...cks-the-data-dump-song-of-brainstorms.228712/
 

LotadAlittle

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I know its probably already known by now, but by performing a BFO, you can regrab the bomb with an airdodge. Since airdodge throws are still a thing, this means you can rethrow the bomb in either the same direction, or a different direction.
Not sure how useful this really is, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
looool this is literally my whole playstyle
 
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I see so much stuff in the Skype chat about how terrible Gay's throws are, but his throws are underrated imo. Sure none of them combo, but you can get some good stuff out of them with reads and mix-ups. Like after fthrowing you can chase after the opponent to see what they do, and if they don't jump away you can usually re-grab (especially at low %s where there's less time to react) depending on the character and what they do.
With dthrow you can limit the opponent's landing options by tossing a boomerang behind you after the throw (which can sometimes hit the opponent at low %s and give enough hitstun to re-grab), and if the opponent does a poor job landing you can regrab. You can also instead bait an airdodge by empty jumping at the opponent after the dthrow, leading the opponent open to get re-grabbed. If the opponent doesn't airdodge when you jump (if they're any good they would've learned not to airdodge from the first dthrow) you can instead hit them with an aerial.
Uthrow imo should be used more sparingly than fthrow and dthrow so the opponent isn't prepared for it, that way you can go for a uair and have it be more likely that the uair will actually connect.
So yeah, with proper mix-ups you can still get a lot out of Gay's throws. They're not that bad, people just need to be more creative with them. This was probably worded terribly, way too sick to be posting write-ups like this but I hope I still got stuff across
 
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CURRY

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Huh. I never really thought about the boomerang thing after the dthrow.
I just always fthrow for damage at the end because I want to get at least a throw off instead of pummeling, so thanks for making the post!
Assuming that bthrow won't be able to kill at the moment, would you say that at a high % that uthrow is still the best? Our uair is pretty freaking amazing.
Or are there better alternatives?
 
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LotadAlittle

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Huh. I never really thought about the boomerang thing after the dthrow.
I just always fthrow for damage at the end because I want to get at least a throw off instead of pummeling, so thanks for making the post!
Assuming that bthrow won't be able to kill at the moment, would you say that at a high % that uthrow is still the best? Our uair is pretty freaking amazing.
I love uair so much, it's not guaranteed but sometimes i've gotten falling uair to double jump uair
 

Dre89

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I see so much stuff in the Skype chat about how terrible Gay's throws are, but his throws are underrated imo. Sure none of them combo, but you can get some good stuff out of them with reads and mix-ups. Like after fthrowing you can chase after the opponent to see what they do, and if they don't jump away you can usually re-grab (especially at low %s where there's less time to react) depending on the character and what they do.
With dthrow you can limit the opponent's landing options by tossing a boomerang behind you after the throw (which can sometimes hit the opponent at low %s and give enough hitstun to re-grab), and if the opponent does a poor job landing you can regrab. You can also instead bait an airdodge by empty jumping at the opponent after the dthrow, leading the opponent open to get re-grabbed. If the opponent doesn't airdodge when you jump (if they're any good they would've learned not to airdodge from the first dthrow) you can instead hit them with an aerial.
Uthrow imo should be used more sparingly than fthrow and dthrow so the opponent isn't prepared for it, that way you can go for a uair and have it be more likely that the uair will actually connect.
So yeah, with proper mix-ups you can still get a lot out of Gay's throws. They're not that bad, people just need to be more creative with them. This was probably worded terribly, way too sick to be posting write-ups like this but I hope I still got stuff across
His grab still sucks relative to most of the cast because it has crap range for how unsafe it is. When he does get a grab he has one of the lowest rewards, seeing as most of the cast can get 30%+
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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His grab still sucks relative to most of the cast because it has crap range for how unsafe it is. When he does get a grab he has one of the lowest rewards, seeing as most of the cast can get 30%+
And I'm sure Artemis would agree with you. What you have expressed is the assumed knowledge that went into his post where he was essentially saying, "sure it's not that great, but here's what you can do with it" which is actually a useful contribution.
 

Dre89

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And I'm sure Artemis would agree with you. What you have expressed is the assumed knowledge that went into his post where he was essentially saying, "sure it's not that great, but here's what you can do with it" which is actually a useful contribution.
Well he said they were underrated, which is the main point I was contesting. The general opinion of Tink having a bad grab game is true, so they're not really underrated. I probably didn't express that clearly.

Speaking of grabs, I know this is super context-specific, but I was wondering what the general options for frame-trapping into grabs are. I, play people who just sit there power shielding projectiles on reaction, so I need traps for grabs. I know they won't be guaranteed or completely safe, but I was wondering what the general set ups were in this type of scenario.
 
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