Tournament Ruleset Hypocrisy

[S_B]

In many current tournaments, both stages with walls and stages with walk-off edges are banned for the purpose of preventing infinite wall grabs and "to death" walk off chain grabs.

Yet, the 7 characters who are vulnerable to standing infinite grabs (Ness, Lucas, Bowser, DK, Mario, Luigi and Samus) and the players who main them are typically told to "Avoid being grabbed." by a D3/Marth player because, much like when other characters are trapped against a wall or chaingrabbed off a walk-off stage, a single grab is death for us.

So because Dedede can pound Snake against a wall or off the stage (yes, I looked into it), walled and walk-offs are banned but his standing infinite on 5 characters is still A-ok?

I don't run a tournament (yet), but if I did, I'd opt for a 5 grab maximum rule. It's easy to enforce, it still racks up a TON of damage with a single grab to start it, yet it doesn't equate the loss of a stock with a single grab. Everyone can choose to main these 7 characters without their matches being trivialized by infinites (they're still at a disadvantage, but nearly as much of one).

Frankly, anyone who bans these stages to protect certain characters without limiting infinites to protect ALL characters is, simply put, a hypocrite.

And don't give me that "NO ONE WAS GOING TO WIN WITH THOSE CHARACTERS ANYWAY! LOLOL" garbage.

Tiers in Melee took YEARS to evolve into their current state. Any of these 7 characters could have serious untapped potential which has yet to be discovered, just as it took some time before Ken brought Marth into the high tiers. But that potential will likely never be tapped if no one is going to bother maining these characters in tournaments to start with.

If you host/organize a tournament, it's upon your shoulders to either limit the number of consecutive grabs (you only need to watch out for infinites happening with one of the 7 characters when they're fighting a Marth/D3) or tell everyone at the tournament to "Learn to not get grabbed by D3 players" on Eldin Bridge and Delphino Plaza.

 

[smashbro29]

I don't know man you can't really limit what people do in game.

 

[S_B]

Not so: Wobbling was banned in Melee tournaments without any issue. It's completely possible to do.

Just banning stages is to take the lazy way out and give the shaft to a bunch of characters at the same time.

I'm sure the number of Snake players at tournaments would drop sharply if Dedede's were allowed to pick Bridge of Eldin or Shadow Moses as the stage to play them on.

Right now, the tournament community is actively protecting SOME of the characters from 0 to death chaingrabs and it's ridiculous.

Either they protect ALL of the characters or NONE of the characters: protecting SOME of the characters just isn't going to cut it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This stuff should indeed be banned.

M2K said somewhere that the infinites against Ness and Lucas should be banned for example. Like Marth on Ness, it only makes a matchup with a high tier really gay against a low tier. However infinites like Melee Mario's chainthrow on Fox should be allowed to allow worse characters do better against top ones.

 

[S_B]

Make no mistake: if Bowser could chaingrab someone off a ledge, it should be banned as well.

And Marth would still have a sizable advantage over Ness/Lucas: Marth can grab 5 times, and on the 5th grab would probably opt to throw Ness/Lucas. That's a whole PILE of free damage for Marth, but it doesn't completely destroy the match for the Ness/Lucas player.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

I easily beat Lucas' with my Bowser. Yeah, you!

 

[manhunter098]

I can definitely agree. Though I think the real problem with the Marth chaingrab against Ness and Lucas is that he gets a free f-smash after they escape, its not that its particularly damaging, since the only damage he can do is from his grab pummel, which is rather low damage.

Also something to notice, if you limit these chain grabs, then we might as well unban stages with walls and limit those infinites as well, it would make the stages available to tournament play much greater.

 

[Brinzy]

And Marth would still have a sizable advantage over Ness/Lucas: Marth can grab 5 times, and on the 5th grab would probably opt to throw Ness/Lucas. That's a whole PILE of free damage for Marth, but it doesn't completely destroy the match for the Ness/Lucas player.

Not to mention, Marth is already a Ness/Lucas counter (Ness moreso than Lucas). I would hope to have a normal straight-up fight against Marth with the Earthbounders, but not everyone will abide by that, so yeah...

 

[KishPrime]

The resolution is simple. Walk-off edges need not be banned. It's pretty scrubby in my opinion, but that's been the convention of the community for years for no clear reason.

 

[S_B]

Also something to notice, if you limit these chain grabs, then we might as well unban stages with walls and limit those infinites as well, it would make the stages available to tournament play much greater.

Very true.

Though, I've heard some take issue with being able to wall-tech (though both players can do it so I don't see why it'd be an issue).

The resolution is simple. Walk-off edges need not be banned. It's pretty scrubby in my opinion, but that's been the convention of the community for years for no clear reason.

...and unbanning walled stages as well, like Shadow Moses.

 

[Undrdog]

In Melee Wobbling ended up being banned from most major tournaments. For those who don't know, Wobbling was the Ice Climbers' infinite grab combo and was very easily done. More so then the Ice Climber combos we have today. Anyway, while this was banned, years had gone by where it wasn't. During this time, Wobbling was legal. But after awhile it stopped being used. You see, there is an honor system among the top players. And in good standing the majority of regular tournament goers undrstood this as well and they too stopped Wobbling.

Even with this "honor system" in place Wobbling still ended up being banned. For right now, the best thing to do is allow chaingrabbing to be played so that it will force the evolution of the game ahead further and faster. Walk-off Stages will always being around to protect characters from moving chaingrabs. However their will surely be a limit to how many or how long a standing chaingrab may be preformed. To steal the chaingrab from the character would be wrong. However to deny the handful of characters that this owns would be even worse. The compromise to this is establishing limiters. This is the road I see the ruling on chaingrabbing to take.

 

[S_B]

Where was that originally posted?

EDIT: Never mind, found it in the Samus thread.

 

[Undrdog]

Where was that originally posted?

EDIT: Never mind, found it in the Samus thread.

^_^

 

[Firestorm88]

I agree with Kish. Stages with walk-off edges shouldn't be banned just yet. Same with walls.

 

[Help!]

not reading what you guys are saying but i'm disliking standing infinites that are super easy to pull off. if they banned wobbling i say ban dedede standing infinite

 

[S_B]

I agree with Kish. Stages with walk-off edges shouldn't be banned just yet. Same with walls.

I agree as well.

Either stop banning stages to protect only some of the characters from infinite grabs or go all the way and protect all of the characters from infinites.

There can be no middle ground in this.

 

[SlashMolder]

Yes, its pretty unfair. Just remember in melee the IC infinitive was banned. Infinitives are not fair and honestly ruin the game, just like laser locking should be banned too. For the most part, people play high tier characters, and they want to keep their characters as high tier. Protect all the characters not just your's.

 

[S_B]

Exactly.

If Snake mains don't like the fact that D3 can infinite them off a walk-off or against a wall, they can main any of these characters who D3 can't infinite against walls or off walk-offs:

Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

And FYI, I use Snake as an example because he's so immensely popular in tournaments right now.

I'm not trying to pick on you Snake mains out there, but understand that there ARE an awful lot of you.

 

[AlphaZealot]

As a note, I do not support the banishment of walk off edge/wall bans, half the cast is still fine on those stages, and as a player who plays someone in the OKAY no big deal part of the cast, I happen to like some of those stages.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

The problem is, Shadow Moses isn't a good stage, even aside the wall infinite problems. Characters that aren't all the great at Vertical killing and kinda screwed over and the percentages can get pretty crazy before KOs.



And I really hope these "Grab limiters" aren't ******** and screw over characters like DDD

 

[S_B]

The problem is, Shadow Moses isn't a good stage, even aside the wall infinite problems. Characters that aren't all the great at Vertical killing and kinda screwed over and the percentages can get pretty crazy before KOs.

The walls can be destroyed, but as a counterpick stage, there's no reason it shouldn't be a valid choice if you play a character with good vertical knockback.

And I really hope these "Grab limiters" aren't ******** and screw over characters like DDD

5 grabs in a chain will get you most of the way across FD and will rack up a CRAPTON of damage (typically 40-60%, especially if you hit the person once or twice before throwing). It's still a sizable advantage, but it's not a guaranteed KO from a single grab.

Wall-infinites and walk-off CGs are banned from most tournaments via banning the stages they're possible on. This is a conscious decision being made to protect part of the roster from being killed by a single grab.

All I'm suggesting is that the entire roster receive the same fair treatment. Currently, infinites are ALREADY being banned, but only for some of the roster, not all of it.

It needs to be one or the other, not a privilege lent only to "popular" characters, especially when there are around 15 characters who cannot be chaingrabbed off the stage by D3.

If Snake mains are going to complain, tell them what Bowser, DK, etc. mains get told: stop being a scrub and find a new main.

 

[vigiliante]

Every tourney I have been to they just ban the infinites but not the chain grab simply because the infinite wasn't supposed to be there but chain grabbing is.

 

[AltF4]

When given the choice, stages are most commonly banned instead of techniques. This is because of a clear logistical issue. Banning a technique invariably involves the use of a judge and can only be soft banned. That is: you cannot prevent the technique from being performed, you can only punish it if it is used.

All else being equal, it is better to be able to hard ban things. Options like items and stages can be simply turned off, and no judge is required to enforce their ban.

That is one major reason why when you have a technique that is broken on a certain stage, the stage is thrown out rather than the technique.



Referring specifically to walk-off edges, I feel they deserve to remain excluded because they introduce too much of a penalty for small mistakes. This then leads to wildly inconsistent results. With a walk off stage, a single missed tech can easily cost you a stock. And this situation happens very frequently. In fact, the walk off edge becomes such a hazard that the entire match typically devolves into trying to gimp your opponent on it.

For example: I have never beaten Taj in a real match in Melee. He's just that much better than me. On any neutral stage, the level plays a minimal factor and allows him to 4 stock me to his heart's content. However if we were to play 10 matches entirely in the cave of Hyrule Temple, chances are I'd do much much better against him. Dare I say I may actually even win one of the matches.

This has nothing to do with me being "better" at playing in the cave than him. It's just a property of that area that you die for arbitrary and essentially random reasons. Results from matches there are highly inconsistent and not suited for competitive play.

 

[Yuna]

You can simply not play as characters who can get infinited when facing the few characters who can truly infinite you. You cannot just switch characters to prevent this on stages with walk-off stages where chaingrabs will result in death or walled stages where a single jab or laser can lead to an infinite.

Solution as Lucas and Ness when fighting Marth: Switch character
Solution when fighting DeDeDe or Falco on a stage with a walk-off edge: None, you get grabbed, you die most of the time

We only ban something when it's universally broken. A chaingrab/infinite that only works against certain characters just makes those characters unplayable against the character(s) in question. As such, it does not need to be banned. One that works on everyone is broken if it makes the character way too good ("Play as them or lose!") and thus, the technique is banned. If it's only possible on certain stages, then those stages will be banned.

Most "infinites" in the game aren't even infinites. At certain points, they will end. It's just that on walk-off stages, that point is almost always death.

Every tourney I have been to they just ban the infinites but not the chain grab simply because the infinite wasn't supposed to be there but chain grabbing is.

Idiotic reasoning. Almost nothing is "supposed" to be there. That or everything that's not an obvious glitch is supposed to be there (this includes Marth's grab-release on Ness and Lucas since Ness and Lucas' grab-release is gimped against everyone, it's just that Marth is so much better than everyone at making use of this).

Sakurai didn't sit down and have beta-testers come up with the best ways to play every character and then design the game around it. He just designed the game and leaves everything up to us. The chaingrabs are much "supposed" to be there as the infinites.

What is your (or their) reasoning for the infinites "not supposed" to be there while the chaingrabs are?

 

[alchfilosofer]

didn't wario could be chain grabbed by yoshi?

 

[Yuna]

didn't wario could be chain grabbed by yoshi?

7 characters can be grab-release-comboed by Yoshi.

 

[Arkimbald]

If Snake mains don't like the fact that D3 can infinite them off a walk-off or against a wall, they can main any of these characters who D3 can't infinite against walls or off walk-offs:

That's messed up. Any character should be able to beat any other character. This includes Ness beating Marth and Snake beating Dedede. Otherwise, this game will end up like Melee where you had to play as Marth, Fox, or Samus to have any chance of winning. No one should have to change their main.

Why don't we ban stages for certain match-ups? That seems to makes sense, because it's only broken for some characters, right? Or you could just ban stages like Eldin if Dedede is playing. Some other people may want to play on those stages anyway.

 

[S_B]

*NOTE: In this post, I am upset with the rules, not the people who organize them or argue for them. I don't want to come across as antagonistic so understand that is not my intended tone.

When given the choice, stages are most commonly banned instead of techniques. This is because of a clear logistical issue. Banning a technique invariably involves the use of a judge and can only be soft banned. That is: you cannot prevent the technique from being performed, you can only punish it if it is used.

All else being equal, it is better to be able to hard ban things. Options like items and stages can be simply turned off, and no judge is required to enforce their ban.

I agree, but the same "technique" which organizers are willing to prevent via hard ban is still happening to certain characters because no soft ban is in effect.

So the technique is worthy of banning when you can simply shut off some levels but not owrthy of banning when a judge actually has to have a set of eyes on the screen?

I can't think of any other word for that than "laziness", and it's not like it's a split-second action, either. When D3 is infinite grabbing someone, it's blatantly obvious. Anyone-the judge, the observers, the players-could easily count the number of grabs performed sequentially. Once that number reaches 5, let 'em go. That's all there is to it.

That is one major reason why when you have a technique that is broken on a certain stage, the stage is thrown out rather than the technique.

I understand this, but the technique is still in the game even when the stages have been banned. It IS a hypocritical act to remove a stage that allows characters to be infinite grabbed but put no rules in place that prevent characters from being infinite grabbed without the stage.

That's like taking away all the guns and knives that people will voluntarily surrender but legalizing murder. Just because the problem isn't as widespread as it was before doesn't mean it's not still a problem.

And this is where there can be NO gray area: either infinites are banned or they aren't. To remove stages that allow infinites against a larger portion of the roster is not sufficient when there's still a percentage of the roster that suffers regardless of stages, ESPECIALLY when there are 12 characters that are not vulnerable to wall infinites or chaingrabs at all and will make perfect acceptable counters to D3 players on Elding Bridge.

Referring specifically to walk-off edges, I feel they deserve to remain excluded because they introduce too much of a penalty for small mistakes.

I'm REALLY not trying to come across as antagonistic here, but this is EXACTLY what mainers of the cursed 7 have to deal with anyway: all it takes is one minor slip-up, we're grabbed and we're down a stock. We don't even NEED to be near the edge of the stage: we can be anywhere, anytime and a single grab is the loss of a stock.

This then leads to wildly inconsistent results. With a walk off stage, a single missed tech can easily cost you a stock. And this situation happens very frequently. In fact, the walk off edge becomes such a hazard that the entire match typically devolves into trying to gimp your opponent on it.

Then don't go near the edge of the level. Any player worth their salt knows they're playing with fire when they take the battle that close to the edge of a walk-off stage.

This is still nothing compared to the "single missed tech" resulting in inescapable grab death for the cursed 7.

You can simply not play as characters who can get infinited when facing the few characters who can truly infinite you. You cannot just switch characters to prevent this on stages with walk-off stages where chaingrabs will result in death or walled stages where a single jab or laser can lead to an infinite.

There are 12 characters who are not vulnerable to D3's infinite. Why are walk-off stages banned when a player can simply choose to main one of those characters instead?

We only ban something when it's universally broken. A chaingrab/infinite that only works against certain characters just makes those characters unplayable against the character(s) in question. As such, it does not need to be banned. One that works on everyone is broken if it makes the character way too good ("Play as them or lose!") and thus, the technique is banned. If it's only possible on certain stages, then those stages will be banned.

And this is where the hypocrisy enters the situation...

I'm guessing that no one who chose a main when Brawl was released did so in the mindset of playing a broken character despite the odds, but when these CGs and infinites were discovered, actions were taken to protect SOME of the characters in most tournaments, mainly the banning of stages where a number of the cast could be infinited or CGed to a walk-off due to a SINGLE landed grab equating death for them.

But the cursed 7 were kicked to the curb when it came time for tournaments to remedy the issue. Rather than going the distance to remedy the imbalance, most rulesets only account for some of the roster's imbalance, not all of it. It's not the FAULT of mains of the cursed 7 that their characters are vulnerable to infinites, just as it's not the fault of Snake mains that D3 can CG Snake off a walk-off stage, and yet walk-off stages are banned for this reason, because one grab equates a kill. This is DESPITE the fact that there are 12 characters who are not vulnerable to CG and would make for perfect counters to D3s on walk-offs.

The real irony in this is that wall infinites can only be started against the wall and walk-offs can only happen on specific stages, and both of these were banned.

Yet, the cursed 7 can be infinited in the same manner by ANY grab, via the same shoddy ban-worthy game mechanics which allowed characters to be wall infinited.

Why is tossing 7 characters to the curb and telling them to find a new main any more acceptable than tossing 22 characters to the same curb, especially when the problem could be easily rectified?

What is your (or their) reasoning for the infinites "not supposed" to be there while the chaingrabs are?

"Supposed to" doesn't even enter into this discussion: this is about whether or not characters are being protected from infinites in tournaments, and SOME of them are while others are not. This is in response to an action taken by many tournament organizers, not a commentary on gameplay mechanics and their faults.

Bowser, DK, Samus, Ness, Lucas, Mario and Luigi mains are simply told to "Find ways around it or find a new main." when presented with the issue of D3/Marth/Charizard infiniting their characters.

So why are mains of Snake, Diddy, Wario, etc. not told the EXACT same thing when it comes to D3 infiniting them against a wall or off a walk-off? WHY? Why are they instead told "We've banned the stages where Dedede can do that to you."

Because it's easier for the organizer to not need to have a judge? Pure garbage.

If SOME of the roster is going to be allowed a reprieve from inescapable grab death, then ALL of the roster needs the same treatment.

Either Snake players make due with D3s infinite grabbing them on Shadow Moses or place a blanket rule of 5 grabs: it's easily enforced and it will even bring certain stages back into legality.

This whole argument basically boils down to...

"What? Dedede can infinite you on a wall or off a walk-off? We'll ban those stages right away!"

"What? Dedede can infinite you without even needing a wall or walk-off? Well, I guess you're f*cked. Find a new main. I'm not going to get a judge to watch these matches!"

 

[AltF4]

Walk off edges aren't banned JUST because of DeDeDe's chaingrab. I don't know why you have that impression. Stages with walk off edges are just uncompetitive, they lead to inconsistent results.

Something doesn't have to be broken to be banned. It needs only be anti competitive.

Imagine that tripping could be turned off in a menu somewhere. Would we include tripping in tournaments or not? Of COURSE we wouldn't. But tripping is clearly not game-breaking. It only rarely actually affects a match. The reason it would be banned is because it is patently anti competitive. It serves only to affect the match such that good players are brought down to the level of bad players by random effects.

That is the real reason these stages are banned. They have wildly random results, as opposed to "neutral" stages which allow the players to fight largely uninterrupted.

 

[pockyD]

the solution is simple: ban any character who can be chaingrabbed

 

[hova]

what a waste of a thread. stop crying about the infinite grab on the little boys. no one else use wobbling as an example; wobbling never would have been banned if it only worked on 2-7 characters, i promise you.

wobbling was banned because it worked on every character, every stage, and was relatively easy to pull off... my fault, it didn't work on IC if nana was still alive

walk off stages are banned because they are just gay in general. it is extremely easy for a player to just camp near the edge and wait for a back throw. eventually that's what every match on those stages would turn into... one player just waiting and the other one trying not to mess up

if you can tech, then you can live forever on Shadow Moses. break the walls? now watch your opponent camp the edges for a back throw...

i'm all for characters being able to use everything at their disposal to win a match up, but every character can camp an edge for a bthrow... that would just make the game unbearable and skill less

things should not and will not be banned in order to make one match up a little more even; just pick up someone who doesn't get ***** by Marth or learn to deal with it... I hear that metaknight kid is pretty good

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

*NOTE: In this post, I am upset with the rules, not the people who organize them or argue for them. I don't want to come across as antagonistic so understand that is not my intended tone.



I agree, but the same "technique" which organizers are willing to prevent via hard ban is still happening to certain characters because no soft ban is in effect.

So the technique is worthy of banning when you can simply shut off some levels but not owrthy of banning when a judge actually has to have a set of eyes on the screen?

I can't think of any other word for that than "laziness", and it's not like it's a split-second action, either. When D3 is infinite grabbing someone, it's blatantly obvious. Anyone-the judge, the observers, the players-could easily count the number of grabs performed sequentially. Once that number reaches 5, let 'em go. That's all there is to it.



I understand this, but the technique is still in the game even when the stages have been banned. It IS a hypocritical act to remove a stage that allows characters to be infinite grabbed but put no rules in place that prevent characters from being infinite grabbed without the stage.

That's like taking away all the guns and knives that people will voluntarily surrender but legalizing murder. Just because the problem isn't as widespread as it was before doesn't mean it's not still a problem.

And this is where there can be NO gray area: either infinites are banned or they aren't. To remove stages that allow infinites against a larger portion of the roster is not sufficient when there's still a percentage of the roster that suffers regardless of stages, ESPECIALLY when there are 12 characters that are not vulnerable to wall infinites or chaingrabs at all and will make perfect acceptable counters to D3 players on Elding Bridge.



I'm REALLY not trying to come across as antagonistic here, but this is EXACTLY what mainers of the cursed 7 have to deal with anyway: all it takes is one minor slip-up, we're grabbed and we're down a stock. We don't even NEED to be near the edge of the stage: we can be anywhere, anytime and a single grab is the loss of a stock.



Then don't go near the edge of the level. Any player worth their salt knows they're playing with fire when they take the battle that close to the edge of a walk-off stage.

This is still nothing compared to the "single missed tech" resulting in inescapable grab death for the cursed 7.



There are 12 characters who are not vulnerable to D3's infinite. Why are walk-off stages banned when a player can simply choose to main one of those characters instead?



And this is where the hypocrisy enters the situation...

I'm guessing that no one who chose a main when Brawl was released did so in the mindset of playing a broken character despite the odds, but when these CGs and infinites were discovered, actions were taken to protect SOME of the characters in most tournaments, mainly the banning of stages where a number of the cast could be infinited or CGed to a walk-off due to a SINGLE landed grab equating death for them.

But the cursed 7 were kicked to the curb when it came time for tournaments to remedy the issue. Rather than going the distance to remedy the imbalance, most rulesets only account for some of the roster's imbalance, not all of it. It's not the FAULT of mains of the cursed 7 that their characters are vulnerable to infinites, just as it's not the fault of Snake mains that D3 can CG Snake off a walk-off stage, and yet walk-off stages are banned for this reason, because one grab equates a kill. This is DESPITE the fact that there are 12 characters who are not vulnerable to CG and would make for perfect counters to D3s on walk-offs.

The real irony in this is that wall infinites can only be started against the wall and walk-offs can only happen on specific stages, and both of these were banned.

Yet, the cursed 7 can be infinited in the same manner by ANY grab, via the same shoddy ban-worthy game mechanics which allowed characters to be wall infinited.

Why is tossing 7 characters to the curb and telling them to find a new main any more acceptable than tossing 22 characters to the same curb, especially when the problem could be easily rectified?


"Supposed to" doesn't even enter into this discussion: this is about whether or not characters are being protected from infinites in tournaments, and SOME of them are while others are not. This is in response to an action taken by many tournament organizers, not a commentary on gameplay mechanics and their faults.

Bowser, DK, Samus, Ness, Lucas, Mario and Luigi mains are simply told to "Find ways around it or find a new main." when presented with the issue of D3/Marth/Charizard infiniting their characters.

So why are mains of Snake, Diddy, Wario, etc. not told the EXACT same thing when it comes to D3 infiniting them against a wall or off a walk-off? WHY? Why are they instead told "We've banned the stages where Dedede can do that to you."

Because it's easier for the organizer to not need to have a judge? Pure garbage.

If SOME of the roster is going to be allowed a reprieve from inescapable grab death, then ALL of the roster needs the same treatment.

Either Snake players make due with D3s infinite grabbing them on Shadow Moses or place a blanket rule of 5 grabs: it's easily enforced and it will even bring certain stages back into legality.

This whole argument basically boils down to...

"What? Dedede can infinite you on a wall or off a walk-off? We'll ban those stages right away!"

"What? Dedede can infinite you without even needing a wall or walk-off? Well, I guess you're f*cked. Find a new main. I'm not going to get a judge to watch these matches!"

Wouldn't that create an infinite cycle?


The answer is so obvious, we must ban every character in this game that can be CGed <_<

 

[S_B]

Walk off edges aren't banned JUST because of DeDeDe's chaingrab. I don't know why you have that impression. Stages with walk off edges are just uncompetitive, they lead to inconsistent results.

Something doesn't have to be broken to be banned. It needs only be anti competitive.

Imagine that tripping could be turned off in a menu somewhere. Would we include tripping in tournaments or not? Of COURSE we wouldn't. But tripping is clearly not game-breaking. It only rarely actually affects a match. The reason it would be banned is because it is patently anti competitive. It serves only to affect the match such that good players are brought down to the level of bad players by random effects.

That is the real reason these stages are banned. They have wildly random results, as opposed to "neutral" stages which allow the players to fight largely uninterrupted.

How are you claiming walk-off stages "randomly" affect matches? Unless the KO wall moves on occasion, it cannot possibly add any randomness into the equation.

And if standing infinites aren't the most "anti-competitive" tactic in the game, I don't know what is.

Furthermore, I also cannot imagine inconsistent results, unless you mean that they differ in results normal matches produce, as in a player who plays fine on FD might not know how to play near the edge of the screen very well and thus will lose more often, but this is a feature of the player and not of the gameplay mechanic.

In fact, I see walk-off stages as the very definition of risk vs. reward in a competitive arena: players need to know how far the KO wall is by instinct and need to know exactly which moves will push their foe there as well as how much room they have before they accidentally walk off the screen.

things should not and will not be banned in order to make one match up a little more even; just pick up someone who doesn't get ***** by Marth or learn to deal with it... I hear that metaknight kid is pretty good

They already ARE being banned in order to make match ups more even. Contrary to what you may believe, infinite wall grabs and chain throws to death are two of the primary reasons these stages are banned in tournament play.

Also, you do know that EVERY character can wall tech, right?

Wouldn't that create an infinite cycle?

How?

5 grabs and you need to throw the player into something they can DI out of. It's not rocket science, and best of all it ensures that any future infinites are likewise limited so they won't be abused in tournaments.

I'm sure we haven't found ALL of the infinite grabs in the game, and I'm also sure that many people would be singing a different tune on the subject if someone found an infinite grab tomorrow that works on Snake and Metaknight.

 

[hova]

i have come to the conclusion that you are pretty much just a cry baby.

IC had Cg against fastfallers and sheik in melee that pretty much was a guaranteed stock.

sheik could do the same to ganon since the resulting edgeguard was dumb easy

mario on falco as well. uthrow and then dthrow.

please stop whining about a bad match up. i'd take you more seriously if you could explain how camping walk off edges and teching to live forever can be fixed

delfino and castle siege are still legal btw

 

[pockyD]

how are you going to enforce 5 grabs? are you going to call the TO over and argue about whether it was 5 grabs or 6? what if the grabber waits for the victim to spotdodge, then grabs? does that reset your imaginary counter?

and before you bring up wobbling, i'm pretty confident that if anyone had challenged the rule about 'no wobbling', it would've been found lacking (how many ftilts counts as wobbling? what if there are no grab attacks?)

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Thank you for bringing up this blatant hypocrisy. And I agree with the sentiment here; the only way to fix this is banning all characters that can be CGed.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

This guy is just mad because his main character gets *****.

 

[AltF4]

Agreed. All characters that can be chain grabbed must be banned.


But srsly: Smash_Brother.... I don't feel like getting all technical with standard deviations and statistical means. The gist is that walk off edges are too severe of a penalty for a small mistake. The result of this is a match which is highly random. Yes there's a "risk-reward" aspect to it, but it's not balanced.

Imagine a stage where every time you touched a certain platform, your Wii stood up and broke your fingers. Not only would it make you lose the match, but likely all other matches for 6-8 weeks too.

Is there a risk versus reward system? Yes. Is this a competitive system? No. The penalty is too great. It is very easy for a very good player to make a small mistake and lose to a bad player.

 

[Yuna]

That's messed up. Any character should be able to beat any other character. This includes Ness beating Marth and Snake beating Dedede. Otherwise, this game will end up like Melee where you had to play as Marth, Fox, or Samus to have any chance of winning. No one should have to change their main.

No, all matchups are not equal. And much like a Snake facing Captain Falcon with the Snake refusing to camp or do any of the stuff that makes him good, the Marth can simply not do the stuff that makes him great against Ness and Ness can win. Horrible matchups exist, deal with it.
I'm sorry, what? Marth, Fox and Samus?

Why don't we ban stages for certain match-ups? That seems to makes sense, because it's only broken for some characters, right? Or you could just ban stages like Eldin if Dedede is playing. Some other people may want to play on those stages anyway.

One third of the characters have jab locks, which end with a KO... from a jab.

 

[S_B]

please stop whining about a bad match up. i'd take you more seriously if you could explain how camping walk off edges and teching to live forever can be fixed

I'm asking that OTHERS stop whining about bad matchups. If D3 can chaingrab a character off the screen, that character should have to deal with that risk. That's all there is to it.

I'm calling out the fact that babies have been crying and tournament rules have been altered to appease them.

At this point, I say pluck the bottles out of their mouthes and tell them to find a new main.

delfino and castle siege are still legal btw

Depends upon the tournament. Most I've heard have all walk-offs and walls banned completely.

how are you going to enforce 5 grabs? are you going to call the TO over and argue about whether it was 5 grabs or 6? what if the grabber waits for the victim to spotdodge, then grabs? does that reset your imaginary counter?

After the 5th, you fthrow. Simple as that, or the TO can decide what they do themselves. If they get regrabbed after being "free", it's their own fault and they have another 5 grabs coming.

Also, I should point out that this still means the ICs' chaingrab is still very effective because it ends with an upsmash. D3's throws are also very powerful. Catch a player at 70% damage and you've probably earned the KO anyway.

Thank you for bringing up this blatant hypocrisy. And I agree with the sentiment here; the only way to fix this is banning all characters that can be CGed.

Of all people, I thought you might be beyond cheap sarcasm...

This guy is just mad because his main character gets *****.

Quite the opposite: I've never even been to a tournament and I've done pretty well for myself with Bowser in my online matches (yeah, yeah, "Online doesn't count! LOLOLOL" I know).

But it doesn't take someone who even PLAYS SSBB to see the hypocrisy in banning stages to stop infinites but refusing to stop infinites that don't require stages.

It's like telling people they can't use weapons to kill each other but those with enough hand strength to strangle another person can go right ahead.

But srsly: Smash_Brother.... I don't feel like getting all technical with standard deviations and statistical means. The gist is that walk off edges are too severe of a penalty for a small mistake. The result of this is a match which is highly random. Yes there's a "risk-reward" aspect to it, but it's not balanced.

I don't want to pick upon you in particular, but every time I've made an argument along these lines (similar to the one you've made), someone has called me a "scrub" and thrown the Sirlin articles in my face, insisting that a better player will learn to counter it without complaining.

Is there a risk versus reward system? Yes. Is this a competitive system? No. The penalty is too great. It is very easy for a very good player to make a small mistake and lose to a bad player.

See, you're PERFECTLY describing what a main of the cursed 7 faces. The risk of going in for a grab is MINISCULE compared to the reward of being able to infinite them to death, and like you said, one very small mistake (in this case, getting grabbed once per stock) and you can lose to some VERY bad players.

I can beat a D3 player up to 200% damage, having him never hit me once, but as I return to the stage, he lands one grab and it's all over. Is THAT competitive?

It sounds so much like we agree on this part that I'm having trouble figuring out we disagree.