QUIVO
Smash Master
I think that Marth vs TL is 6-4 Toon link's favor.
Just space with projectiles and approach with nairs/bairs.
Just space with projectiles and approach with nairs/bairs.
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Toon Link Matchup Thread
- Thread starter JesiahTEG
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Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Might as well start it off.
You approach Marth with a nair or a bair and you get stuffed with anyone of Marth's attacks that outrange you.
I call the match-up as 5/5 even.
You approach Marth with a nair or a bair and you get stuffed with anyone of Marth's attacks that outrange you.
I call the match-up as 5/5 even.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Yeah, after playing the match up a bit, I'm inclined to agree with Emblem Lord...I'm leaning towards 5-5, but also 6-4 in Marth's favor doesn't seem that bad...But I'll stick with 5-5 for now...I'll do this matchup next.
Also Emblem Lord, Toon Link will never approach Marth, so what you stated doesn't even matter.
Also Emblem Lord, Toon Link will never approach Marth, so what you stated doesn't even matter.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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I know.
I was countering the above argument.
TL SHOULD be camping.
If he doesn't it goes from 5/5 to 7/3 Marth's favor. LOL.
I was countering the above argument.
TL SHOULD be camping.
If he doesn't it goes from 5/5 to 7/3 Marth's favor. LOL.
i'm thinking marth is 5/5 even, despite toon link's difficulty in landing the KO, i still don't lose more than i win vs marth (building damage with projectiles is fine, but it's tough to get inside to f or u smash)
Are these matchup analyses open for anyone to write, or do you only want to post your own? I'd love to contribute, pending your approval of what I have to say.
Are these matchup analyses open for anyone to write, or do you only want to post your own? I'd love to contribute, pending your approval of what I have to say.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Dude, feel free to post whatever you want, we're the community and it's up to us to help each other out. However, if I disagree with something you say I'll probably ask you about it to clarify...But yeah, feel free to help as much as possible.
Also, Meta Knight can't just "run" past Toon Link's projectiles. It's harder than that for him, although not as hard as it is for say Ike or DK.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
No, I understand what you're talking about....Sometimes, I take height into consideration and it screws me up once in a while, but when it comes down to it, his height really doesn't help that much at all.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Added the Ike matchup...Feedback appreciated.
Darth JoBak
Smash Apprentice
harvest flavored blue cookies for me, good quote
wolf has the advantage on tl, reflector spam acts like a mini counter, and wolf is too fast to camp against.
Wolf has more advantages that can be dealt with at a minimal price.
I say 6:4 wolf although I wouldnt be surprised if tournaments show 7:3 wolf
IMO Wolf is the ideal TL counter
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Good Ike summary.
Seriously he went from being a potential top tier to low tier material.
Sad.
Seriously he went from being a potential top tier to low tier material.
Sad.
QUIVO
Smash Master
What are you guys doing against Marth?
I somewhat camp at mid-range. Once I hit him with a projectile, I follow up with nairs and get additional damage. You can usually predict the marth to jump high, so throwing a boomerange upwards can utilize his movements.
I try to kill with usmash, or get him off the ledge and try to mindgame them into going below the stage. Marth is pretty easy to edgehog kill, and if he goes above the stage.. just follow up with a ledgehop aerial.
Also, nairs out of shield seem to work wonders for me.
I somewhat camp at mid-range. Once I hit him with a projectile, I follow up with nairs and get additional damage. You can usually predict the marth to jump high, so throwing a boomerange upwards can utilize his movements.
I try to kill with usmash, or get him off the ledge and try to mindgame them into going below the stage. Marth is pretty easy to edgehog kill, and if he goes above the stage.. just follow up with a ledgehop aerial.
Also, nairs out of shield seem to work wonders for me.
Umby
Smash Master
Good shit.
i agree 100%
a good wolf player can tear up TL if they know what they are doing. Even if they dont i will make it 5:5 even but i agree with 7:3 agasint a good wolf.
Ice Climbers
Ever heard Isai's fighting game proverb 'don't get hit'? Against the ice climbers, the same rules apply, except it's 'don't get grabbed'. And honestly, if you could find a way to not get grabbed in the course of a 3 or 4 stock match, you could stop reading this right here. But for the rest of us mortals, you've got challenging and disruptive matchup that I think breaks just about even, maybe even in Toon Link's favor. Ice Climbers force you to play their game a little, but with some patience, you can win it out. If anyone has an advantage over the ice climbers, it's going to be toon link.
(Skip down three paragraphs if you know all about the generalities of the ice climbers, and my condolences for the psychological damage they have undoubtedly caused you.)
Ice Climbers, for the uninitiated, are capable of performing 0-death chain throw combos on almost everyone in the game, save other Ice Climbers. They have multiple variations and combos relating to their chain throws and "desynching" techniques. A quick demonstration can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4.
As you can see, there are two main chain throws that they can do. The "bad" chain throw, in which popo dthrows and nana fairs, which is the easier to perform and less dangerous of the two. There is nothing really "bad" about it, it's just not as good as the other one. The timing is exactly the same for every character, and if they bring you to the edge they can usually end it with a dunk from nana's fair (popo's does not dunk). Often, though, the player might combo it into a desynched side special, in which you are locked by alternating spinning hammers, or an "ice block lock" where you are hit by multiple desynched icebergs, like falco's laser lock on the heavies. All of this works on toon link. At high percents, this dunk is fatal to toon link, but at lower percents (i'd say below 50%, maybe 60% depending on the stage), his excellent vertical recovery can get him back to the edge.
The "good" chain throw is much harder to perform, and the player will have to have practiced specifically against toon link (who is both small, light and floaty) in order to perform it. In this throw, Popo fthrows or bthrows to nana, who directly catches you, and they repeat the process until nana bthrows you into popo's charged upsmash. This, if done correctly, is a 0-death combo that can be performed on most stages, regardless of size. At this stage of the game, you'd be hard pressed to find many players who can do this so consistently that every grab is a death sentence against every character, but give it a few months, and you'll start to see that kind of expertise. At any time at a high percent, however, a grab can chain into an F or U smash from the partner to your death.
So, like I said, don't get grabbed.
SO, what can our little hylian do against this? Well, luckily for us, we have one of the best projectile games in brawl, and have a few tricks up our sleeve with regards to chain grabs. Also luckily for us, the Ice Climbers, sans their precious chain grab, are a fairly mediocre character who Toon Link outprioritzes and outspeeds in the air. Toon Link also has the advantage of not having a semisuicidal partner on which relies the fate of his ability to function.
Obviously, toon link's projectiles are a huge factor in this match, as they'll be your main form of dealing damage to the ice climbers. RAR and Nair approaches are dangerous when they ice climbers are on the ground, as the punishment for being grabbed can be so severe. If you feel the need to get in close with a nair, be sure to DI away, and maybe quick draw an arrow on landing. Ice Climbers, luckily, have a terrible grab range. It is, however, a very quick grab and a good ice climber player will running grab you from a prone position to get the extra range, so don't be surprised if you get nailed as soon as you land. So, until you're ready to go in for the KO (more on that later), keep your distance, and always be on the lookout for opportunities to aerial them to get them out of your face to enforce spacing.
By far, the most disruptive part of the Ice Climbers game vs Toon Link are desynched ice blocks. Normally, pairs of ice blocks travel as such:
___^^___^^___^^___^^
But, when the ice climbers are desynched, the blocks fire one at a time travel like this:
__^__^__^__^__^__^
Each ice block can now individually block a single arrow (the second arrow on the SHDA), and the next ice block will most likely hit you on landing (I'm still working on a better way to time this, if anyone has it figured out, please let us know). The result is that the desynched ice blocks disrupt the traditional SHDA camping strategy. This sucks for Toon Link, but it's not really that bad. You just have to get a little more creative with your projectile game, especially arrows. Short hopping the first arrow, and trying not to get hit with ice blocks may score you a few hits, some of which will land on nana for no damage, but some of which will land on popo. In general, it's tough because whenever you're playing the ground game vs ice climbers, they can match your arrows with ice blocks. So, get your arrows in when you can, in places like midair or quick draws of aerials, or while retreating, because SHDA is just not as effective against the Ice Climbers.
Bombs and boomerangs, however, work just fine, and stop the ice climbers from camping you with their otherwise mediocre projectile. Hop their blocks, and toss a bomb at them. Bombs are especially good, since they stand a better chance of not getting blocked by nana by accident because of the blast radius. Also, hitting both of them with a bomb will resynch them, which can be disruptive to the ice climber player. Boomerangs are also a good choice when angled up or down from a jump. Boomerangs and bombs are, naturally, great ways to punish their approach. Patience is the key here. Realize that they are forcing you closer than you'd like because you can't arrow from a distance as well. Don't get grabbed.
But, you won't be able to keep them off their balance forever, and chances are you'll get grabbed more than once in a fight. Aside from trying to break the grab, which you should always attempt, as some ice climber players like to take their time and focus before executing combos, there is one other trick toon link has up his sleeve. If you're holding a bomb, after a few seconds the explosion will interrupt their chaingrab and free you from their icy grip. This does really well against the slower infinite grab. Really, bombs are the best weapon you have against the ice climbers. Always have one out. Don't hesitate to throw it, either. Unlike the real Zelda games, Toon Link always has a fresh supply from his gigantic bomb bag : P
So, you're firing off projectiles like a madman, hopefully dodging their assault, and you decide you'd like to kill the little eskimos. Getting in close is really risky until you've met one condition- kill nana. Even more important than projectile spam, assassinating nana should be your prime objective. Without Nana, Popo has limitied KO power, can't ice block spam you, and can't chain throw you. His recovery is also nerfed. Basically, once she's dead, you've all but won the stock. Just don't get cocky. Once Nana is dead, you can risk approaching, but a lone popo can and will kill you at high percents. Once he's around 80-90%, go for the throat and claim your KO with the move of your choice. If he's at a really high percent, though, it may be best to just go for the kill on Popo if you can.
Nana is basically a really stupid version of popo with a death wish. If you manage to separate the two, always always always go for nana. She can't air dodge without him most of the time, and while she has some AI, for the most part you can knock her around handily. Off the edge, if you can manage to keep Popo from reaching her (knock his *** back in the other direction if you can) Nana often can't make it back alone, sometimes expressing her unwillingness to live by attempting an UpB without her partner. Separating them is tougher than it was in melee, but nailing them at the right time with an nair might send them in opposite directions (two hits), but otherwise any attack has a chance of separating the pair. Grabbing them works really well, as you have a longer grab range, and it always splits them up. Just don't miss or they'll capitalize on your crappy after grab lag and make you die. Just be sure to jump on any opportunity to beat the crap out Nana. The more damage she builds, the easier it becomes to separate them by a good distance.
For the most part, you won't see the ice climbers jumping a lot. Aside from the odd short/full hop ice blocks, which stop your aerial approach, they know their best chance is on the ground, where they can grab, fire off ice blocks, and approach with side b. Ice climbers hate jumping platforms, despite their game of origin. They wouldn't jump to the top of battlefield for a million eggplants. Toon Link totally beats up the ice climbers in the air, so look opportunities to uptilt them from whiffed throws and punish their mistakes when they roll behind you. Uptilt is a great way to split them up for Nana pwnage. You'd be surprised how often Popo can't reach you while you're roughing up his girlfriend.
As for stage choices, the ice climbers will actually beat toon link on his favorite Final Destination. The reason for this is that they all the room in the world to chain grab you, and you don't have any platforms to hide on. Although there is the obvious risk of them hopping up and nailing you with aerials from underneath, being a platform is, in general, a safer zone against the chain grab antics. Counterpicking is tough, because you want to pick big courses with enough room to spead out and camp, but you also want platforms. I actually think Norfair works well, as nana likes to send herself for a lava dip every so often. And they can get interrupted by awesome lava flows. I'd rather get hit by lava than chaingrabbed : / But otherwise, battlefield is a better option than FD, as is the modal and ever changing Isle Delfino.
So, hit em with projectiles, divide and conquer, and don't get grabbed.
Ever heard Isai's fighting game proverb 'don't get hit'? Against the ice climbers, the same rules apply, except it's 'don't get grabbed'. And honestly, if you could find a way to not get grabbed in the course of a 3 or 4 stock match, you could stop reading this right here. But for the rest of us mortals, you've got challenging and disruptive matchup that I think breaks just about even, maybe even in Toon Link's favor. Ice Climbers force you to play their game a little, but with some patience, you can win it out. If anyone has an advantage over the ice climbers, it's going to be toon link.
(Skip down three paragraphs if you know all about the generalities of the ice climbers, and my condolences for the psychological damage they have undoubtedly caused you.)
Ice Climbers, for the uninitiated, are capable of performing 0-death chain throw combos on almost everyone in the game, save other Ice Climbers. They have multiple variations and combos relating to their chain throws and "desynching" techniques. A quick demonstration can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4.
As you can see, there are two main chain throws that they can do. The "bad" chain throw, in which popo dthrows and nana fairs, which is the easier to perform and less dangerous of the two. There is nothing really "bad" about it, it's just not as good as the other one. The timing is exactly the same for every character, and if they bring you to the edge they can usually end it with a dunk from nana's fair (popo's does not dunk). Often, though, the player might combo it into a desynched side special, in which you are locked by alternating spinning hammers, or an "ice block lock" where you are hit by multiple desynched icebergs, like falco's laser lock on the heavies. All of this works on toon link. At high percents, this dunk is fatal to toon link, but at lower percents (i'd say below 50%, maybe 60% depending on the stage), his excellent vertical recovery can get him back to the edge.
The "good" chain throw is much harder to perform, and the player will have to have practiced specifically against toon link (who is both small, light and floaty) in order to perform it. In this throw, Popo fthrows or bthrows to nana, who directly catches you, and they repeat the process until nana bthrows you into popo's charged upsmash. This, if done correctly, is a 0-death combo that can be performed on most stages, regardless of size. At this stage of the game, you'd be hard pressed to find many players who can do this so consistently that every grab is a death sentence against every character, but give it a few months, and you'll start to see that kind of expertise. At any time at a high percent, however, a grab can chain into an F or U smash from the partner to your death.
So, like I said, don't get grabbed.
SO, what can our little hylian do against this? Well, luckily for us, we have one of the best projectile games in brawl, and have a few tricks up our sleeve with regards to chain grabs. Also luckily for us, the Ice Climbers, sans their precious chain grab, are a fairly mediocre character who Toon Link outprioritzes and outspeeds in the air. Toon Link also has the advantage of not having a semisuicidal partner on which relies the fate of his ability to function.
Obviously, toon link's projectiles are a huge factor in this match, as they'll be your main form of dealing damage to the ice climbers. RAR and Nair approaches are dangerous when they ice climbers are on the ground, as the punishment for being grabbed can be so severe. If you feel the need to get in close with a nair, be sure to DI away, and maybe quick draw an arrow on landing. Ice Climbers, luckily, have a terrible grab range. It is, however, a very quick grab and a good ice climber player will running grab you from a prone position to get the extra range, so don't be surprised if you get nailed as soon as you land. So, until you're ready to go in for the KO (more on that later), keep your distance, and always be on the lookout for opportunities to aerial them to get them out of your face to enforce spacing.
By far, the most disruptive part of the Ice Climbers game vs Toon Link are desynched ice blocks. Normally, pairs of ice blocks travel as such:
___^^___^^___^^___^^
But, when the ice climbers are desynched, the blocks fire one at a time travel like this:
__^__^__^__^__^__^
Each ice block can now individually block a single arrow (the second arrow on the SHDA), and the next ice block will most likely hit you on landing (I'm still working on a better way to time this, if anyone has it figured out, please let us know). The result is that the desynched ice blocks disrupt the traditional SHDA camping strategy. This sucks for Toon Link, but it's not really that bad. You just have to get a little more creative with your projectile game, especially arrows. Short hopping the first arrow, and trying not to get hit with ice blocks may score you a few hits, some of which will land on nana for no damage, but some of which will land on popo. In general, it's tough because whenever you're playing the ground game vs ice climbers, they can match your arrows with ice blocks. So, get your arrows in when you can, in places like midair or quick draws of aerials, or while retreating, because SHDA is just not as effective against the Ice Climbers.
Bombs and boomerangs, however, work just fine, and stop the ice climbers from camping you with their otherwise mediocre projectile. Hop their blocks, and toss a bomb at them. Bombs are especially good, since they stand a better chance of not getting blocked by nana by accident because of the blast radius. Also, hitting both of them with a bomb will resynch them, which can be disruptive to the ice climber player. Boomerangs are also a good choice when angled up or down from a jump. Boomerangs and bombs are, naturally, great ways to punish their approach. Patience is the key here. Realize that they are forcing you closer than you'd like because you can't arrow from a distance as well. Don't get grabbed.
But, you won't be able to keep them off their balance forever, and chances are you'll get grabbed more than once in a fight. Aside from trying to break the grab, which you should always attempt, as some ice climber players like to take their time and focus before executing combos, there is one other trick toon link has up his sleeve. If you're holding a bomb, after a few seconds the explosion will interrupt their chaingrab and free you from their icy grip. This does really well against the slower infinite grab. Really, bombs are the best weapon you have against the ice climbers. Always have one out. Don't hesitate to throw it, either. Unlike the real Zelda games, Toon Link always has a fresh supply from his gigantic bomb bag : P
So, you're firing off projectiles like a madman, hopefully dodging their assault, and you decide you'd like to kill the little eskimos. Getting in close is really risky until you've met one condition- kill nana. Even more important than projectile spam, assassinating nana should be your prime objective. Without Nana, Popo has limitied KO power, can't ice block spam you, and can't chain throw you. His recovery is also nerfed. Basically, once she's dead, you've all but won the stock. Just don't get cocky. Once Nana is dead, you can risk approaching, but a lone popo can and will kill you at high percents. Once he's around 80-90%, go for the throat and claim your KO with the move of your choice. If he's at a really high percent, though, it may be best to just go for the kill on Popo if you can.
Nana is basically a really stupid version of popo with a death wish. If you manage to separate the two, always always always go for nana. She can't air dodge without him most of the time, and while she has some AI, for the most part you can knock her around handily. Off the edge, if you can manage to keep Popo from reaching her (knock his *** back in the other direction if you can) Nana often can't make it back alone, sometimes expressing her unwillingness to live by attempting an UpB without her partner. Separating them is tougher than it was in melee, but nailing them at the right time with an nair might send them in opposite directions (two hits), but otherwise any attack has a chance of separating the pair. Grabbing them works really well, as you have a longer grab range, and it always splits them up. Just don't miss or they'll capitalize on your crappy after grab lag and make you die. Just be sure to jump on any opportunity to beat the crap out Nana. The more damage she builds, the easier it becomes to separate them by a good distance.
For the most part, you won't see the ice climbers jumping a lot. Aside from the odd short/full hop ice blocks, which stop your aerial approach, they know their best chance is on the ground, where they can grab, fire off ice blocks, and approach with side b. Ice climbers hate jumping platforms, despite their game of origin. They wouldn't jump to the top of battlefield for a million eggplants. Toon Link totally beats up the ice climbers in the air, so look opportunities to uptilt them from whiffed throws and punish their mistakes when they roll behind you. Uptilt is a great way to split them up for Nana pwnage. You'd be surprised how often Popo can't reach you while you're roughing up his girlfriend.
As for stage choices, the ice climbers will actually beat toon link on his favorite Final Destination. The reason for this is that they all the room in the world to chain grab you, and you don't have any platforms to hide on. Although there is the obvious risk of them hopping up and nailing you with aerials from underneath, being a platform is, in general, a safer zone against the chain grab antics. Counterpicking is tough, because you want to pick big courses with enough room to spead out and camp, but you also want platforms. I actually think Norfair works well, as nana likes to send herself for a lava dip every so often. And they can get interrupted by awesome lava flows. I'd rather get hit by lava than chaingrabbed : / But otherwise, battlefield is a better option than FD, as is the modal and ever changing Isle Delfino.
So, hit em with projectiles, divide and conquer, and don't get grabbed.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Awesome, nice job. I skimmed through it, reading it all but very quickly...When I have more free time, I'll add it to the first page, possibly taking out/adding a few things here or there, but I'll let you know before I take stuff out or add it.
Added the R.O.B. matchup, and changed the ratio to 6:4. Also, will add Ice Climbers stuff when I'm not exhausted.
Added the R.O.B. matchup, and changed the ratio to 6:4. Also, will add Ice Climbers stuff when I'm not exhausted.
lawl, i wonder if you think ROB's Dsmash is any good. I think you should probably mention ROB's side B, which can reflect some of TL's projectiles when times correctly. Toon Link's projectiles are slow enough that ROB doesn't have to predict like a psychic to start up the rotor arms and send some stuff back in his face.
it's not a huge advantage, but it's another point in ROB's favor in regards to the camping war.
it's not a huge advantage, but it's another point in ROB's favor in regards to the camping war.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Mentioned R.O.B.'s side B, and added the Ice Climbers matchup., along with the Marth matchup.
1) Most Diddy Kongs don't touch the peanut popper except for edge guarding, its doesn't give Diddy an advantage, but it also doesn't mean Toon Link can counter the peanut gun, because every character can get around peanuts, so few Diddy's even bother using it.
2) Young Link can't just spam projectiles. This sorta goes back to the early camping theories of Brawl. Diddy can rush down ANY camper, glide tossing out of a shield is awesome. Aside from just banana rush downs you can also Diddy hump rush down. Check around the 2:40 mark in the video I posted to see what I'm talking about.
3) Diddy's recovery is hard as hell to gimp with any character. Over B gets refreshed if they are hit, Peanut gun/if a banana is in hand you can annoy the edge guarder, peanut gun can be fired backward for horizontal distance (Diddy can make the loop underneath stages like Smashville/Battlefield because of this technique). UpB is hard to edge guard if the Diddy knows how to position away from projectiles (this is very easy, its the same as Marth's recovery from Melee).
4) Diddy will rarely upB spike, there is much more to worry about from his Dair spike, which will **** any Toon Link who doesn't get the sweet spot on his upB (this would be rare against a good TL). The alternative is that Diddy can also get to the side of YL during the recovery and Diddy hump him.
5) Air dodging is dangerous against any character/player who knows you intend to airdodge, in the match below, watch at the 2 minute match where YL air dodges and I simply wait and then smack him with an Fair. Air dodging is not the combo ender that early Brawl theorists claimed.
6) Ftilt owns boomarang, view combo video.
AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs Zoo (Toon Link)
You can also watch YL get some combo action on him in the combo video I have posted in my profile.
Note: not saying that YL I played there is awesome, but I've played a bunch of YL's and its one of the easier match ups because YL dies at much lower percentages that most of Diddy's match ups, and that happens to be pretty much the biggest thing holding Diddy back. For comparison, watch the Diddy-Bowser match up, Game 2, between me and KishSquared, I dish out an average of 179% damage for each of Bowser's stocks. Diddy wll combo you. He will get in on you. You have to be offensive and out damage him/get kills on him before he gets them on you.
Most of the theories about repelling Diddy (like being able to gain control of nanas, which while possible, won't occur often or enough to offset the amount of control Diddy will usually have) are routed more in theory than in practice, and this is partly because Diddy players are a rarity.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Ah, you saw my post...Thanks. Will edit later.
Umby
Smash Master
True too. Not that great of a TL, though not using Bair doesn't define how good you are with Toon Link. =/
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
1. Ok, Peanut gun is irrelevant if you say so....It's more bananas that you should be worried about I guess. I don't feel like Bananas are as much of a problem with Toon Link as there are for other characters though, although I will completely admit, I do not have as much experience in this matchup as I would like to have. However, I know a popular banana strategy is to keep them grouped together, and if you keep them grouped together vs Toon Link and he's behind them...He's not in a very bad position like most characters. He now has a wall in which to use his projectiles from, and if you do approach with a dash attack, he can just hookshot grab you, which will grab you from VERY far away....He has other options too, but grabbing seems to be the best.
2. So, Diddy has ways to deal with camping...Like I stated above though, doesn't change the fact that Diddy's the one in the position of having to approach.
3. Ah, alright, point taken. But, I still think that for example if Diddy is recovering from right below the stage, you can drop a bomb using the Z button down on him...But, I'll change the part about edgeguarding. I'll take your word for it here.
4. I was just talking about his Up B spike as a tidbit of info...Didn't mean to focus on it, but it came to mind so I added it. Also, it's extremely easy to sweetspot the edge, like you said, any decent Toon Link will be sweetspotting. Diddy humping Toon Link will be hard...As Diddy has many ways to avoid getting his recovery *****, so does Toon Link. Position, projectiles, etc.
5. Airdodging isn't an end all combo killer, but it will stop you from getting Utilt combod all day, which is what I stated...And, any Toon Link can punish airdodges just as well as Diddy can, even better probably due to the duration of his Uair. Airdodging works just as well for both characters in this matchup I suppose, since both are combo machines.
6. Toon Link can kill Diddy, from the middle of Final Destination with no DI with his Uair at 105%, Usmash and Fsmash at 110%, 105%, his Fair at 125%. Diddy can kill Toon Link under the same conditions with his Dsmash at 125%, Fsmash at 125%, Fair at 140%, Ftilt at 155%. What you mentioned about Diddy having it easier vs Toon Link because he can kill Toon Link easier is pretty much irrelevant. Actually, scratch that, it is relevant to the matchup...For Toon Link. What do you think Toon Link's biggest problem is? Same as Diddy's, he has trouble killing. But he can do it better than Diddy can. A matchup where Toon Link can kill easy is a blessing, and as you can tell from the numbers, he can kill Diddy much much easier than Diddy can kill him.
Gaining control of bananas for the opponent is a rarity? I can see how with Diddy's pressure, it would be hard to find time to gain control of bananas, but I know if I see bananas, I'm running for them.
I'll change the match from 6:4 in Toon Link's favor to 5:5 for some of the reasons you stated above. Here's what I got from your post.
Toon Link cannot camp Diddy due to his good rush down game. Toon Link can't **** Diddy's recovery either...Edgeguarding is about even, since you can occasionally Diddy hump Toon Link's recovery, although vs a good Toon Link it won't happen very often. Same goes for TL's projectiles vs Diddy...You're not going to harass Diddy's recovery that much vs a good player with your projectiles, but you can still deal some damage once in a while. Both characters can KO each other early, but Toon Link can kill Diddy much earlier and more versatile than Diddy can kill him.
Also AZ, we should play WiFi sometime...Like you probably know, not many people main Diddy. I'd like more experience.
PM me your screenname if you're interested. I use AIM.Right. I didn't say that, did I?
Umby
Smash Master
No. You simply implied it.
We can play after June 15th, I've lost my wifi until I get back home to MD, but yea, I'd like to get more experience against TL's as well.
Well, I suppose I should have just left it at "that Toon Link sucks", because no one piece of evidence of his sucking could ever suffice to soundly imply "that he sucks", as sucking is a judgment (it could never be logically valid). I was simply picking what I thought to be the most glaring example, i.e., that he didn't bair a single time. I could have also included that he missed the sweetspot more than he hit it, that he landed a whole 2 aerials (one uair and one dair), or that he killed himself at 67% by fairing well below the stage. But A) you could always use the argument, "such and such doesn't necessarily imply he sucks" (because NOTHING can ever necessarily imply suck-dom) and B) I didn't feel like I needed to.
Umby
Smash Master
Granted. I just have an issue when other users (not necessarily yourself) start to define the quality of their characters by one move. It somewhat perpetuates a cycle of neglecting alot of your other moves.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Added the Falco matchup...And I'm fixing the Diddy Kong one right now.
Understood. I myself find bair to get a little more credit than it deserves.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
After playing vs Diddy all night, I'm inclined to keep the matchup as even...I realized just how good Toon Link's anti banana game is. Not only is he fast enough to use Diddy's bananas against him, but his projectiles, mainly arrows, greatly help in reducing the effectiveness of bananas...It doesn't negate them, but making Diddy worry about projectiles, and also arrowing Diddy slows down how quickly he gets to bananas, and also racks up damage.
Yeah, I spent 5 hours playing vs my friend's Diddy, gathering info...I have a strong grasp on the matchup now.
In short, this matchup is completely different from every other matchup. I recommend every Toon Link to focus this matchup completely on Bananas.
It's like fighting Falco in Melee. You can't just Dash Dance/Wavedash around...You need to focus on getting past lasers.
That being said, this match is very fun.
Yeah, I spent 5 hours playing vs my friend's Diddy, gathering info...I have a strong grasp on the matchup now.
In short, this matchup is completely different from every other matchup. I recommend every Toon Link to focus this matchup completely on Bananas.
It's like fighting Falco in Melee. You can't just Dash Dance/Wavedash around...You need to focus on getting past lasers.
That being said, this match is very fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l7RSbqBmdY
New **** for Diddy, I wouldn't even bother trying to grab nanas anymore if I'm the enemy.
Also, your observation on projectile spamming to limit nanas is very true, Pit is one of Diddy's hardest match up because of the fast arrow spam. TL not so much because of the slower rate of fire/range, but it can still be affective.
New **** for Diddy, I wouldn't even bother trying to grab nanas anymore if I'm the enemy.
Also, your observation on projectile spamming to limit nanas is very true, Pit is one of Diddy's hardest match up because of the fast arrow spam. TL not so much because of the slower rate of fire/range, but it can still be affective.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Are you saying that everytime Diddy slips, they can just use this boost?
If you gain control of the banana, I can walk up to it and barrel cancel, so yea, pretty much, and those things are deadly, though random (which actually makes them more deadly). I can just keep walking up to the banana and producing more and more barrels.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
But I can still throw the Bananas at you, correct?
Edited 1st page to add stats.
Edited 1st page to add stats.
I think that Snake's matchup analysis, while perhaps right on the matchup ratio, fails to take into account some of Snake's best tactics. The boost smash is nigh unpunishable by TL as an approach, and the knee lock is like, unfair as all get out and should be mentioned. I think they might even tip the match to "even" territory.
Snake's dash attack is okay as an approach, but his boost smash comes out way faster, and brings him way farther, and is tricky to even dodge, nonetheless punish. You can punish the dash attack with a boomerang or bomb (if you have one), but you'll never ever have enough time to punish the boost smash with a boomerang. It just comes out way too slow. Arrows don't stop it. Bombs do, but you have to have one in hand. And once snake boost smashes, there are like 4 different parts of it that can hit you. The dash attack itself, the mortar drop, the sliding mortar, and the explosion itself. Like I said, TL would be lucky to dodge all that damage, forget have enough time to stop it. Once he uses it, Snake will probably wind up behind you or right on top of you. Neither of those are good places for TL to be, because you're gonna get tilted (maybe even knee lock you for like 50%)
I think that this is a major problem for TL in spacing the matchup. Despite all your best efforts, at nearly any time snake can cross the board in like a second and be on top of you. It's not impossible, but the best strategy that you can employ against snake is predicting when he might boost smash. Chances are none of us have the superhuman reaction speed to dodge it once the animation starts, but most likely the snake will have to be at the correct spacing himself before boost smashing. Unfortunately, this is usually at the range that TL likes to sit- mid to long range across a flat level like FD. Shield it, dodge it, and start moving in the opposite direction that snake is moving. Get away from the mortar, and maybe fire some retreating arrows at him.
Neither of these tactics even work against a really well spaced boost smash where he lands right on top of you, or against snake on smaller levels when he just boost smashes back and forth a few times. It really screws TL up.
Snake's dash attack is okay as an approach, but his boost smash comes out way faster, and brings him way farther, and is tricky to even dodge, nonetheless punish. You can punish the dash attack with a boomerang or bomb (if you have one), but you'll never ever have enough time to punish the boost smash with a boomerang. It just comes out way too slow. Arrows don't stop it. Bombs do, but you have to have one in hand. And once snake boost smashes, there are like 4 different parts of it that can hit you. The dash attack itself, the mortar drop, the sliding mortar, and the explosion itself. Like I said, TL would be lucky to dodge all that damage, forget have enough time to stop it. Once he uses it, Snake will probably wind up behind you or right on top of you. Neither of those are good places for TL to be, because you're gonna get tilted (maybe even knee lock you for like 50%)
I think that this is a major problem for TL in spacing the matchup. Despite all your best efforts, at nearly any time snake can cross the board in like a second and be on top of you. It's not impossible, but the best strategy that you can employ against snake is predicting when he might boost smash. Chances are none of us have the superhuman reaction speed to dodge it once the animation starts, but most likely the snake will have to be at the correct spacing himself before boost smashing. Unfortunately, this is usually at the range that TL likes to sit- mid to long range across a flat level like FD. Shield it, dodge it, and start moving in the opposite direction that snake is moving. Get away from the mortar, and maybe fire some retreating arrows at him.
Neither of these tactics even work against a really well spaced boost smash where he lands right on top of you, or against snake on smaller levels when he just boost smashes back and forth a few times. It really screws TL up.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Yeah, the matchup is actually 5:5...I just forgot to change it.