TLMSheikant
Smash Master
The Metaknight Matchup Rediscussion Thread
65:35 Strong Disadvantage
Frame Data for MK: Go here if you want to compare mk's frame data with TL's.
Down Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4
Forward Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown
frame summary:
duration: 40
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits
1st hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -11
2nd and 3rd hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23
Hitstun first hit: 16 base of blade (-4 advantage), variable at tip*
Hitstun second hit: variable*
*what happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current %, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high %.
Up Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 36
cooldown: 17
shield hitlag differential: 0
shield stun: 2
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18
Forward Smash
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame 24
IASA frame: 42
Cooldown: 17
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 5
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5
Down Smash
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
Up Smash
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 8
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 17
IASA frame: 50
Shield hitlag differential: 0
All hits shield stun: 1
Cooldown: 31
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24
Neutral Air
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5
* Note that doing this is unrealistic because of how the nair works. It would be very difficult to hit a shield with the weak hitbox and then immediately land into the ac point. You would most all the time be hitting the top area of the shield and then falling until you land.
Forward Air
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -8
Optimal shield drop advantage: -1
Back Air
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -3
Optimal shield drop advantage: +4
Down Air
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
Up Air
frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3
Dash Attack
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-11 hitbox out
12-31 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 5
IASA frame: 32
Cooldown: 20
Grab
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 grab hitbox out
8-29 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 6
IASA frame: 30
Cooldown: 22
Dash Grab
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-39 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 40
Cooldown: 30
Pivot Grab
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-34 cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 35
cooldown: 24
Mach Tornado
minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)
maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out
Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.
Grounded Shuttle Loop
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32
Aerial Shuttle Loop
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38
Dimmensional Cape
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-27 invincibility frames
28-54 cooldown
frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:10
notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12
Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12
Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28
Best stage to fight Metaknight on:
Other good stages to fight Metaknight on:
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Smashville
-Green Greens (if legal).
Worst stage to fight Metaknight on:
Other stages you should avoid:
-Jungle Japes
-Castle Siege
-Battlefield
-Frigate Orpheon
-Luigi's Mansion (if legal).
Summary:
Meta Knight is an agile character with a nearly lagless moveset making him very overwhelming at times to fight. Luckily, Toon Link is good at playing keepaway even against Meta Knight. Bombs help a lot in this matchup mainly due to breaking the tornado and because they can be used whenever you're under pressure.
If a Meta Knight starts down air camping (using his jumps and down air to stay above you and pressure you), you can run away and throw an angled up boomerang, or run below him and throw a bomb up or be risky and use back air. When he grabs and down throws you, you have the option of DI'ing to the side and zair limiting a lot of his followups. However, a good Meta Knight will pick up on this and tornado the next time so make sure to mix it up. The problem with the matchup is that Meta Knight can gimp Toon Link very easily. His down air and offstage edeguarding game are probably the best in the game.
However, Toon Link can still make it back to the stage. Boomerang helps a lot to stop a dairing Meta Knight in his tracks. Always have a bomb in hand when offstage. Bombs can save you from getting gimped in a a variety of ways: 1- You can recover low with one in hand, throw it up toward Meta Knight, double jump up B safely to the ledge. 2- Throw the bomb backwards and use back air to defend yourself. 3- Hold the bomb after getting hit by his down air (DI it upwards) so that when you upB, you get another upB doubling your chances for recovery. You can also use upair if you are not holding a bomb, it will beat Meta Knight's dair.
His most common kill moves are down smash, neutral air and shuttle loop. Against down smash DI up, bair and fast fall, you can also use double jump dair to recover high. Against nair, DI up and momentum cancel with bair. Against grounded shuttle loop, DI to the side and against aerial shuttle loop, DI up. Also, invincibomb is great in this matchup. It can beat an aerial shuttle loop and it's great for landing onstage.
Moves to watch out for:
Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, Forward air, Down air, Upair, Neutral Air, Mach Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Down throw, Down Smash, Forward Smash.
Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Bombs, Back Air, Zair, Upsmash, Upair, Boomerang. NOTE: This is just a list of moves that work very well in the matchup but dont be discouraged from using other moves to mix it up.
Common Metaknight Strategies and how to overcome them:
Dair camping
One of the most common MK strategies. Mk uses his multiple jumps in conjunction with his fast, trascendent priority down air to camp and put pressure on you at the same time. To beat this, stay away from the down air and look for an opening to throw a bomb up, if they airdodge it follow the airdodge and punish. Our back air/upair also beats his down air if you space them properly.
Tornado
bombs! Angled up shield. Pivot grab *risky*
Down throw followups/setups
DI to the side and zair to avoid most followups. If the mk catches on and starts using tornado to beat your zair, then DI up and jump away or DI to the side and land with your shield angled up.
TL;DR- Camp him as much as you can, be patient, use bombs to force mistakes and punish them and don't get gimped.
The old discussion is here for reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192975
The thread is still open for discussion of the matchup.
65:35 Strong Disadvantage
Frame Data for MK: Go here if you want to compare mk's frame data with TL's.
Down Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4
Forward Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown
frame summary:
duration: 40
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits
1st hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -11
2nd and 3rd hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23
Hitstun first hit: 16 base of blade (-4 advantage), variable at tip*
Hitstun second hit: variable*
*what happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current %, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high %.
Up Tilt
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 36
cooldown: 17
shield hitlag differential: 0
shield stun: 2
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18
Forward Smash
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame 24
IASA frame: 42
Cooldown: 17
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 5
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5
Down Smash
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13
Up Smash
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 8
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 17
IASA frame: 50
Shield hitlag differential: 0
All hits shield stun: 1
Cooldown: 31
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24
Neutral Air
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5
* Note that doing this is unrealistic because of how the nair works. It would be very difficult to hit a shield with the weak hitbox and then immediately land into the ac point. You would most all the time be hitting the top area of the shield and then falling until you land.
Forward Air
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -8
Optimal shield drop advantage: -1
Back Air
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -3
Optimal shield drop advantage: +4
Down Air
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
Up Air
frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3
Dash Attack
frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-11 hitbox out
12-31 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 5
IASA frame: 32
Cooldown: 20
Grab
frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 grab hitbox out
8-29 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 6
IASA frame: 30
Cooldown: 22
Dash Grab
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-39 cooldown
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 40
Cooldown: 30
Pivot Grab
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-34 cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 35
cooldown: 24
Mach Tornado
minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)
maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out
Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.
Grounded Shuttle Loop
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32
Aerial Shuttle Loop
frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38
Dimmensional Cape
frame breakdown:
1-17
18-27 invincibility frames
28-54 cooldown
frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:10
notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12
Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12
Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28
Best stage to fight Metaknight on:
Other good stages to fight Metaknight on:
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Smashville
-Green Greens (if legal).
Worst stage to fight Metaknight on:
Other stages you should avoid:
-Jungle Japes
-Castle Siege
-Battlefield
-Frigate Orpheon
-Luigi's Mansion (if legal).
Summary:
Meta Knight is an agile character with a nearly lagless moveset making him very overwhelming at times to fight. Luckily, Toon Link is good at playing keepaway even against Meta Knight. Bombs help a lot in this matchup mainly due to breaking the tornado and because they can be used whenever you're under pressure.
If a Meta Knight starts down air camping (using his jumps and down air to stay above you and pressure you), you can run away and throw an angled up boomerang, or run below him and throw a bomb up or be risky and use back air. When he grabs and down throws you, you have the option of DI'ing to the side and zair limiting a lot of his followups. However, a good Meta Knight will pick up on this and tornado the next time so make sure to mix it up. The problem with the matchup is that Meta Knight can gimp Toon Link very easily. His down air and offstage edeguarding game are probably the best in the game.
However, Toon Link can still make it back to the stage. Boomerang helps a lot to stop a dairing Meta Knight in his tracks. Always have a bomb in hand when offstage. Bombs can save you from getting gimped in a a variety of ways: 1- You can recover low with one in hand, throw it up toward Meta Knight, double jump up B safely to the ledge. 2- Throw the bomb backwards and use back air to defend yourself. 3- Hold the bomb after getting hit by his down air (DI it upwards) so that when you upB, you get another upB doubling your chances for recovery. You can also use upair if you are not holding a bomb, it will beat Meta Knight's dair.
His most common kill moves are down smash, neutral air and shuttle loop. Against down smash DI up, bair and fast fall, you can also use double jump dair to recover high. Against nair, DI up and momentum cancel with bair. Against grounded shuttle loop, DI to the side and against aerial shuttle loop, DI up. Also, invincibomb is great in this matchup. It can beat an aerial shuttle loop and it's great for landing onstage.
Moves to watch out for:
Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, Forward air, Down air, Upair, Neutral Air, Mach Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Down throw, Down Smash, Forward Smash.
Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Bombs, Back Air, Zair, Upsmash, Upair, Boomerang. NOTE: This is just a list of moves that work very well in the matchup but dont be discouraged from using other moves to mix it up.
Common Metaknight Strategies and how to overcome them:
Dair camping
One of the most common MK strategies. Mk uses his multiple jumps in conjunction with his fast, trascendent priority down air to camp and put pressure on you at the same time. To beat this, stay away from the down air and look for an opening to throw a bomb up, if they airdodge it follow the airdodge and punish. Our back air/upair also beats his down air if you space them properly.
Tornado
bombs! Angled up shield. Pivot grab *risky*
Down throw followups/setups
DI to the side and zair to avoid most followups. If the mk catches on and starts using tornado to beat your zair, then DI up and jump away or DI to the side and land with your shield angled up.
TL;DR- Camp him as much as you can, be patient, use bombs to force mistakes and punish them and don't get gimped.
The old discussion is here for reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192975
The thread is still open for discussion of the matchup.