Toon Link and spacing.

[Pho]

Make note of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoGpHUR1KI

Around Peach's last stock, I start to lose control, and space myself incorrectly. Unfortunately, poor spacing is a bad habit of mine, and it's a common mistake that I keep making. I normally don't think about where I land, but if I can land a hit or not. I asked a friend on how to space well, and he told me is to measure the hit boxes of my attacks, and make sure they stay on the edge of that hit box. When I tried that, I lose focus on playing like I normally do, and eat it a lot. I want to learn how to space well, but still keep my play style to an extent.

My question is how do others keep their spacing?

 

[Megapants]

You definitely made good use of Zair, which is TL's best spacing tool.

One thing I noticed is that you didn't use your arrows very often, which are also very effective at spacing. Short hop arrows don't really go very far anyway, so I find them to be quite effective when your opponent is at a medium distance. The stun from the arrow can lead into lots of different moves, mainly aerial combos.

Other than that, I think you did very well to space. Hope this helps you out though. : )

 

[WindMajor]

When you feel like you are losing, try to stop worrying and keep your cool. Once you realize you aren't focusing, you should put your serious face on and get back to owning.

 

[Pho]

I'm more asking for advice for spacing... Not general gameplay. It was a friendly anyways, so no serious business was needed.

 

[Corpsecreate]

if an enemy is holding shield in front of you and you decide to go and attack them, try hit them with the furthest part of your attack and longest range attack (nair/fair are best) and then move backwards after hitting them or their shield. This way they wont be able to shield grab you if they block your attack.

 

[ChocoNaner]

You didn't start spacing incorrectly. Niko was barraging you with a pile of attacks, interrupting your jectile game. Then he made you struggle to pull off an attack and get a chance to space.

Run out of your shield with a bomb at hand, throw the bomb backwards from a full jump then throw your 'rang. Then try a Zair or spaced Nair.

 

[DCStyle]

The only problem I saw was how predictable your bomb throws were getting. You either full hopped and threw down, or your dashed, pivoted, and threw it. It worked the first 2-3 times, but after that he shielded most of the rest.


A good way to space with a bomb in hand is to short hop backwards when he's dashing towards you, z drop (no sound), and arrow cancel. If he gets hit with the bomb, at low percentages, he will get hit by the arrow as well. If you know he's going to get hit with the bomb, you can short hop an SMS boomerang towards him and get him with all three, and another short hop aerial for the kill or w/e you want to follow it up with.
This is how I usually space my game; I pretty much make a projectile wall between us, and if he gets caught, I can effectively attack them with aerials/smashes.

 

[Alzi]

All you need to do is mix it up alittle more. You should be alright and less predictable after that. Also it seemed like you were focusing alot on your projectiles and forgetting about toon links aerials. I did see that you used some but his aerials should be used evenly with your projectiles. Needs alittle more smashes at times to mix up your play just don't spam too much smashes though keep it all even.

This should be in this thread btw:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199596

 

[copacetic]

Learn to space b-air and f-air well. B-air can hit people either straight up (good for saving in teams) or slightly below the horizontal for gimping depending on where in the hitbox you hit. If you space f-air "poorly," i.e. you're inside someone when the hitbox comes out, they'll go backwards and they're usually DI-ing in that direction.

And don't just measure the hitboxes but try and figure out things like how far away should you z-air so that you can follow up with n-air. Against light characters z-air hits them pretty far so you want to space it closer

 

[oOJaseOo]

If in doubt spam and force them outta your way toon has one of if not the best spams in brawl and is a safety net for us when zair spaceing isnt working and i find that if thats not enough i just run off somewhere and set some sort of mindgame trap. If your concerns are about zair spaceing then talk to Hyro hes probs best at that

 

[Pho]

I will keep that in mind Jase. From the comments, I do feel like I should mix up my game more. Still worried about my spacing, but now I'm worried about other things too... *sigh*

 

[Tiersr4Queers]

u didnt space incorrectly u were doing it quite well, keep them away with ur bairs and fairs so dey dnt appoarch if tat doesn't work...guess its time 4 spamming!

 

[VGSteve]

For the most part your spacing is just fine, I think the problem lies in something else though. I know the Marth boards suggest space training by attacking Lvl 3s, but I know you're pretty adamant about not playing CPUs. Give it a try though, if only to completely and utterly familiarize yourself with your range.

 

[Pho]

I don't believe my spacing is fine. Maybe not in that video, but it's common for me to get grabbed whenever I zair or nair. And I throw projectiles at people at the wrong times... Fail!

And why level 3 computers? And what should I be doing?

 

[VGSteve]

Practice whiffing attacks, and try to get a feel as to just how far you have to be in order to land your attack.

Keep in mind spacing and zoning are two different things, but I'll go over that in person. When I said your spacing isn't a problem I meant it, I think you have a problem that is similar to most players, and that's being a little stubborn. There are moments in your matches when retreating and camping to reset to position to a more neutral one would be more beneficial, but instead you tend to charge forward when at a disadvantage. I know for a fact you move and react faster than I do, but if you took the time to analyze current situation as opposed to relying on instinct, and then quickly reacting accordingly, you could be absolutely dangerous.

 

[Artmastercorey]

excellent advice i slowed my game down tremendously and i seem to do a lot better instead of being on constant santi mode, but its a little harder to be strategic agaisnt fast characters who barely lag/ put alot of pressure on you and have a lot of range or priory like marth or peach or especially diddy kong X D

 

[GodMeowMix]

I don't believe my spacing is fine. Maybe not in that video, but it's common for me to get grabbed whenever I zair or nair. And I throw projectiles at people at the wrong times... Fail!

And why level 3 computers? And what should I be doing?

There could be multiple reasons for that and it doesn't have to be proper spacing. There's a video of M2K vs Santi on Youtube for example, it wasn't that Santi wasn't spacing himself properly from M2K to use his projectile setups. It was that he kept falling into the same pattern of retreating and throwing projectiles and it gets too familiar.
Certain match ups you just need a different amount of spacing due to the speed of the character and the quickness of their attack and how much lag your move is gonna have.
Getting grabbed with the zair and nair probably meant you either approached them when you were trying to land it, or were too predictable with it.
This is just my 2 cent on it, I'm just a trashy Toon Link main so I mean what do I know.

 

[VGSteve]

excellent advice i slowed my game down tremendously and i seem to do a lot better instead of being on constant santi mode, but its a little harder to be strategic agaisnt fast characters who barely lag/ put alot of pressure on you and have a lot of range or priory like marth or peach or especially diddy kong X D

I used to play a super aggressive Marth who's only focus was to kill and maim as fast as possible. I think the ideal player can play at full speed and calculate situations accurately. I think it's all about having your hands move at the same speed as your head.

 

[Pho]

That's bad for me, because my head doesn't move at all in comparison to my hands. I just play...

 

[oOJaseOo]

i find practice against a BURLY (7) or a NASTY (9) cpu helps with my game outside of fests/tourneys and if you go onto training set the comp to run or attack or sumin or give yourself a handicap or sumin just little tests but the best way to train are tourneys friendlies or fests

Edit: oh and mindgames son

 

[DCStyle]

Play level 9s and try beating them normally (melee, projectiles, not complete edgehog/planking game) without getting hit.

 

[Pho]

Tried that. Doesn't work as well as you think.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Pho- dont play cpus please itll only make u worse against humans. If u want to practice, just go to training and practice ur techs, combos, spacing against the sandbag. Playing lv 9 cpus is stupid practice.

 

[Pho]

This is where I have the choice to play online for experience... But I hate online with such a passion, and it drives me up the wall... It's still practice, but it's like playing with your hands broken.

 

[DCStyle]

Pho- dont play cpus please itll only make u worse against humans. If u want to practice, just go to training and practice ur techs, combos, spacing against the sandbag. Playing lv 9 cpus is stupid practice.

Practicing combos on sandbags is worse than practicing combos on lv 9 cpus how, and helps practice spacing how?

 

[Nehemiah]

Practicing combos on sandbags is worse than practicing combos on lv 9 cpus how, and helps practice spacing how?

Because all cpu's are too predicitable, humans, not really. Like for example if you were toon link and you were to jump over a cpu's head, 98% chance that the cpu will either jump and use up air or charge an up smash which you can punish over and over again with down air

Humans, well smart humans, will either shield and grab, or roll and smash basically, or some whom can out priotize the down air with their up air.

and practicing agains't the sand bag like for example, being able to see at what farthest point does your chain reach, how far does you side air and normal air reach, how far your side smash reaches, etc. and the sandbag is heavy so it doesn't fly out easily. now for grab length, a cpu dummy will be needed, and for like using jab cancel into grab or chain grab, yea playing an active cpu would be better

 

[oOJaseOo]

Santi fights cpus u sayin santi doin it wrong?

 

[Thunderbolt]

Your spacing looked just fine.