To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[DarkLink_313]

I've noticed a sort of thrend in this forum and in many other forums as well. The trend seems to be "Smash Bros. Brawl is getting 'slowed down' a little, so now it's not going to be good". People are complaining that, just because Nooby McNewguy can't Wavedash or hold his own against certain players, that doesn't mean the game should be changed in any way. They complain that the "slower aerial battles" are going to make the game too much like a DBZ fighter, and that it would ruin the unique aspect that Smash Bros. has.

I'd like to say that looking at the gameplay changes like this is starting to show that the Smash community is a bunch of elitist hypocrites.

The game is going to be slowed down to allow more players to play it. Why don't you people think this is a good idea? By not letting new members join the community, you'll slowly start killing it. Video games thrive on new players joining the fray constantly. If the game is slightly tweaked to remove Wavedashing, a glitch that shouldn't exist (even if the programmers noticed it and left it in, it doesn't mean they saw the full ramifications of leaving it there), then fine, so be it. I can't Wavedash around my group of friends because none of them can do it; they don't bother to practice it, and refuse to play against me if I actively use it, and as such, I find no need to practice it either. So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it.

The new aerial battle system doesn't sound at all like it's being made to sound like. I fairly certain just having more interesting aerial battles will make the game more fun, and I sure didn't see it as a bad thing when watching Pit and MetaKnight do it in the trailer. What's your problem with this change? It honestly sounds like it might matches more fun, and it gives a whole new area for characters to excel/fail in, creating a new way to determine the tiers. Explain to me why this is a bad thing.

I remember during the initial preparation for this game, that everyone was complaining about Melee turning into "just another fighter". One such argument: If they added Supers into it, that's a bad thing. Well, they sure as heck added Supers to it, didn't they? And they did a fine job at it too, by making it 'optional' for all you 'pros' who don't like fighting with items and only play on certain levels. This is where your hypocrisy comes in: If you don't want this game to be just like any other fighter, why are you trying so hard to make it like one? You remove items. Why? Because they take away from the skill required to play? No, you take them out because they're "random" and it makes the game "unfair". Bull. Items make the game more frantic, and add the chaos factor that regular fighters don't have. You play only on a small selection of levels, and you ALWAYS get rid of the moving levels, such as Poke Floats. Why? Because they're "random" and it's makes the game "unfair". Bull. The moving levels make the game more fun by making the players have to concentrate on more than just their opponent, something that regular fighters don't have.

By cutting certain levels and removing items, you completely destroy certain characters' only good qualities. You can bet that Mewtwo would be a better character if items were allowed, because the moment he picked up a Paper Fan his opponent would be afraid to put up his shield. Pichu is Bottom Tier because you removed the only thing that gave him an advantage: items. Because PokeFloats and Big Blue are turned off, it's impossible for, say, Kirby to gain an advantage by using the environment as a weapon. By turning off the "unfair" levels and items, you make this game exactly like all the other fighters out there, only lo and behold, you have to do your own combos. But in removing levels and items, you also remove several combo opportunities.

Also, you claim that by changing the gameplay and certain characters, that people will have to learn the game all over again. Guess what? Did you play the original Smash Bros.? THen, did you play Melee? Well, answer me this: Didn't you have to relearn certain aspects of the game? yes? Good, then stop complaining. If they don't change anything going into Brawl, they're basically making Smash Bros. Melee 2, and that's not a good thing. You see, because then, Smash Bros. would become like other fighters, because all that's chaning is a few new characters, some new levels, and improved graphics and combos. By changing the gameplay slightly, they create a completely new experience. That's wherein you'll find fun: a new gaming experience for everyone, pro or newb. So you have to relearn Sheik because they toned her down? Good, maybe you'll find someone else you like. So Wavedashing got removed? Good, now everyone's on the same basic skill level, and taking advantage of a glitch won't make the difference between a pro and a newb: it will be actual skill with their character of choice.

So honestly, I'd like an intelligent discussion with this. Someone tell me the bad part about Sakurai-san's changes, in response to my own points. What's wrong with changing the game?

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

In before the topic goes to hell!

 

[Sixwinter-Kubata]

This is a very good post and I commend your intelligence as it's something I rarely see on this forum (hence my tiny post count). What you have to realize about any "competative" community is that they practice a single sport, a single game, and get good at it. Wavedashing is an exploit that was practiced and taught, L Cancelling is also an exploit, etc etc. People in this setting dislike change heavily, as it's something that is a potential threat to their status and skill level in a video game.

My analogy is that Baseball players don't have to adapt to radical new changes to the Baseball game. They always play baseball. The problem with this is, is that Baseball is a sport, meant to be played and won, with a competative nature as the first aspect of the game.

Super Smash Brothers, or any video game for that matter, is the complete opposite. It is intended to be something fun for people to play and a competative game in last. This is something that I'm quite familiar with as I have often played many many games with the CPL, MLG, etc and I've come to realize and is a reason I don't participate in those activities anymore.

It's something that happened with the transition from Counter Strike 1.6 to Counter Strike: Source, Halo to Halo 2, and I'm sure several other games of this category. I agree with you entirely, as more players and more new things to learn seems more like an interesting challenge rather than an terrible obstacle to overcome, and as much as I love Super Smash Brothers: Melee the game can only be played so often before it becomes stale, even in the competative community.

So in conclusion I agree, the competative community has a few changes to be made if it wants to become more logical and intelligent and less elitist and stupid. There's something that never quite has struck me right about thinking that you're the best simply by publicizing your games...

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Im sorry, but how is L cancelling an exploit? Its been in both SSB games, its INTENTIONAL.

 

[DarkLink_313]

I never mentioned L-cancclling myself, as I know it's intentional, and certainly very easy to do with even just a little practice. I personally just think Wavedashing needs to go. THAT it a glitch completely blown out of proportion.

 

[Sixwinter-Kubata]

I was under the impression that it was an exploit, as it's something that you don't usually find in fighters. However I forgot to think of the original SSB and so I realize that it's not an exploit.

My previous points still stand though.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

You're right.

You're absolutely right.

Personally, I dislike tourneys, because items are banned.

I LOVE ITEMS! Everyone on this board complains about how items suck, and how
they want them removed, and personally, it's pissing me off.
People complain about not likeing Big Blue, but frankly I think it's quite a cool stage.
Moving stages ARE down to skill, because you gotta keep up with the stage.
There was some guy who recorded a video on Big Blue, and guess what:

He was greeted with "Why were you playing on Big Blue anyway" and all sorts of
other "isn't it banned" bull****. Is there now some sort of fine for playing on
Poké Floats or icicle mountain in their own home?

So now playing in tournaments has become like playing a cut down version
of the game? Now the tier lists have been defined by 9 out of 29 stages in the game?
Because the number of stages has been cut down, we now have less characters
to choose from, otherwise we'd get owned???

WE NEED MORE MOVING STAGES so then there will be even less
"tounament safe" stages to play on, thus balancing the game much more.
Marth would kick *** on any stage, but Kirby would have more of an even fight
against him on Big Blue because he can use the terrain to his advantage!

Mewtwo and Pichu were DESIGNED with the intention of being item-gods,
why take that away from them? IT EVEN SAYS ON PICHU'S TROPHY that he'd
be better off scuttling around looking for items.

I think the only items that should be banned in tourneys are the home run bat,
the hammer, invisibility, star, metal box, mini mushroom and bob-omb.
Because they ARE cheap, and can end the match in an instant.
The other items don't take away from the game, they only make it LESS
like other fighting games, which is what you people on this forum are always
campaigning for.

CO-OP ADVENTURE FTW!

 

[Wave⁂]

changing the game makes it less unique.
dunno wut that means...

 

[DarkLink_313]

changing the game makes it less unique.
dunno wut that means...

Wait, what?

 

[magar]

I'll give you credit for the LONG post.

 

[Wenbobular]

Heh, I must really be behind on Smash...where did all this info come from Dark?
Like the bit about Smash being slower...because the reason i find Melee so fun is the speed that everything is executed. I go back to 64 and I'm amazed at the floatiness of everyone's jumping...
I personally enjoy wavedashing...but ya know. Whatever.
Apart from that, I commend you for your post. Clones of games generally get old pretty fast. *Shrug*

 

[DarkLink_313]

Heh, I must really be behind on Smash...where did all this info come from Dark?

Which part? What info?

 

[Wenbobular]

The bit about Smash being slower. Right below your quote. Hehe.

 

[DarkLink_313]

Sakurai has stated he wants to slow down the game a little and put more focus into air combat. You can find this info on the Japanese version of the main site: http://www.smashbros.com/en/index.html

 

[Wenbobular]

I can't seem to find that tidbit...*shrugs* I'll read it more in depth later. Sakurai seems like an extremely dedicated designer though. Let's hope he can pull off another awesome extension of the Smash series.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I completly agree with the first post. I however don't play items because I think it's cheap and all but I do llike them atleast. Also I loved the changes from SSB64 to Melee. Nintendo really knows there games better then we do so they surely won't screw it up.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

I get Diddy Kong's post.

Scav edit: You seem to be enjoying this thread. Don't ruin it by posting unneeded one liners. That's how topics shrivel and die.

SSJ4Kazuki edit: You're right. I had that banned on my tmw forum.
I have seen the error of my ways.

 

[Brightside6382]

I think one of the biggest problems is people just don't know what they want. When creators try to change things people complain and say they changed the game to much and they took away the "core of the game" But when they change to little people complain its the samething and they want something different. Unless the creators make it perfect people will always complain.

 

[asianpride3491]

Well, as long as its still fun, and doesnt stray too much, some change wont kill. I can dig it.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Believe me, they WILL make it perfect. We've all got our nukes aimed.

They can't take away the core of the game. The only way they can do that
is if they took away % and stage edges and items, and added life bars.

Hey wait, you had to do ONE THIRD OF THAT for tournament play. Hypocrites.

"Legal" tournaments are diluting the game! Fight the power!!!

 

[asianpride3491]

I think tourneys are perfect. They dont prohibit item use during your life, they just want to make it more balanced and skill dependant. How would you feel if you were about to win, and then while delivering the final blow, a bomb omb popped up in front of you and your opponent was already hit, so youre the only one who dies from the item? Random right?

Although i do agree. Fight the power!

 

[Degreez]

Well, as long as its still fun, and doesnt stray too much, some change wont kill. I can dig it.

Somehow, that was one of the most logical posts here.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

It's happened to me many a time.

Heck, a lit bomb has spawned OVER my head while I was in the middle of
Marth's Fsmash. Sure, there was cursing, cos it was ****ing annoying,
but then I could laugh about it, because we were all laughing.

 

[asianpride3491]

It's happened to me many a time.

Heck, a lit bomb has spawned OVER my head while I was in the middle of
Marth's Fsmash. Sure, there was cursing, cos it was ****ing annoying,
but then I could laugh about it, because we were all laughing.

Exactly. Its fun. Taht stuff should happen in casual smashing. But tournaments arent about fun. theyre about winning.

 

[ForestSage]

More aerial battles huh? I'm curious what they are changing about them... I've heard suggestions like, aerial smashes and then the normal air attacks. But i still somewhat think that the five air attacks are more than enough. but still looking forward to the changes.

 

[gnosis]

I can't Wavedash around my group of friends because none of them can do it; they don't bother to practice it, and refuse to play against me if I actively use it, and as such, I find no need to practice it either. So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it.

Because it is an optional tactic that, when utilized, makes the game deeper and more fluid than the game without it. Why are you arguing for its removal? You don't even use it, so why take it away from the people who do?

So Wavedashing got removed? Good, now everyone's on the same basic skill level, and taking advantage of a glitch won't make the difference between a pro and a newb: it will be actual skill with their character of choice.

The wavedash is ******* not the divider between good players and bad players. It just isn't, and it's absolute ignorance to say otherwise. Getting rid of it will not bring everyone down to the same basic skill level, not even close. Where do you even get that idea? There's a mountain of things that separate a pro from a newb over just jumping and airdodging. And how is it that using wavedashing compromises your 'actual' skill? Wavedashing takes skill to use properly. Not merely the technical aspect, but the application as well. Wavedashing is a conduit for skill, and proper usage of it shows more skill than ignoring it or abusing it. Anybody who claims they -only- lost because their opponent wavedashed probably sucks a lot at this game.

Aerial battle blah blah blah

No one knows what is really meant by expanding on the aerial battle. I'm interested to see what Sakurai-san is planning. However, I doubt we'll ever see a Pit vs Metaknight scene like that in competitive play; it was cinematic, but not very smart.

You remove items. Why? Because they take away from the skill required to play? No, you take them out because they're "random" and it makes the game "unfair". Bull. Items make the game more frantic, and add the chaos factor that regular fighters don't have.

'Chaos factor' is all well and good for friendly play, but leaving it up to luck is not acceptable when money is on the line. Though, in general, the better player will win in an items match, no one is going to accept a loss because an explosive container landed on them as they unleashed a smash to edgeguard for what should've been -their- win. Competitive play is about deciding who's better, and items muddy that and 'add the chaos factor', which needs to be limited as much as possible in a test of skill.

You play only on a small selection of levels, and you ALWAYS get rid of the moving levels, such as Poke Floats. Why? Because they're "random" and it's makes the game "unfair". Bull. The moving levels make the game more fun by making the players have to concentrate on more than just their opponent, something that regular fighters don't have.

Always? Try never There is nothing random about Pokefloats and it isn't banned. Nor is any other moving stage besides Big Blue and Icicle Mountain. The only reason stages are banned is when there is something that is far too exploitable to make it a test of skill. Generally these are levels that make the game run too long, or give way too huge of an advantage to certain characters. Hyrule, Great Bay, etc., give too much of an advantage to projectile-whoring campers, other stages give quick, easy, and early kills to a couple characters while leaving others horribly gimped, etc. Basically, banned stages are banned because they're way too gay for even competitive play, let alone friendlies.

Counterpicking stages and being aware of the environment is a big part of competitive play, so saying competitive players are anti-environment is silly.

By cutting certain levels and removing items, you completely destroy certain characters' only good qualities. You can bet that Mewtwo would be a better character if items were allowed, because the moment he picked up a Paper Fan his opponent would be afraid to put up his shield. Pichu is Bottom Tier because you removed the only thing that gave him an advantage: items.

This argument is flawed. Pichu would not be a better character with items; if anything, he'd be worse. You forget that the Top tier characters are also more proficient with items than the rest of the cast (Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Peach, etc.). Not only that, but Mewtwo's too slow to get at the items, Pichu's too small and light to survive getting to the items, etc. Items would just highlight the weaknesses of characters, as any advanced movements with items (Marth's double hit for example) don't change that much in the advantages, but the inherit traits of characters determine whether or not they will get items, be able to counter them, and be able to survive them.

Something about the game being different from other fighters because of items or something

Partially true. Smash is different because it is both a party game, and a competitive game. You have the party section, where items and wacky stages separate it from other fighters. Than you have the competitive section, where a person being able to die at any percentage, where edgeguarding, where recovery, where freedom of movement, where DI, and where a plethora of combos and setups separate it from other fighers. And why not leave it like that? Two games in one. Why get rid of wavedashing, when you can just not do it, and it alone provides no big advantage? If you don't wanna play in our wavedashing, no-Big Blue world, fine, go ahead. No one's stopping you. We won't try and take items away from you or anything of the sort. But why try and take our stuff away from us?

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Believe me, they WILL make it perfect. We've all got our nukes aimed.

They can't take away the core of the game. The only way they can do that
is if they took away % and stage edges and items, and added life bars.

Hey wait, you had to do ONE THIRD OF THAT for tournament play. Hypocrites.

"Legal" tournaments are diluting the game! Fight the power!!!

No, "legal tournaments" are not "diluting" the game. They simply provide a set of rules for those who want to play competitively, that in turn creates the optimum environment for their skills and knowledge to be put to use without random interference. Those who mainly like playing for fun with friends and family don't have to adhere to any rules, and thus enjoy turbulent free-for-alls and all that stuff. Again, tell me why tournaments ruin the game?

(might as well keep typing) Going back to the first poster, who stated that competitive smashers are hypocrites, I think you haven't got your ideas straight. You see, even without using items or certain levels, smash is still the only good fighting game of its kind. There really is no comparison anyway. I had more of an argument for this but now I don't remember the points I wanted to make.

Lastly, to whoever said taking items out of competitive smash made Pichu and Mewtwo bottom tier, calling them "item-gods", you are wrong. They would still be bottom tier. I mean, so Pichu as quick and can get to items quicker than most (except for oh, I don't know, Fox, CF, Sheik, Marth, Ice Climbers, Luigi, etc.), does that really balance out that he can get KOd at 60% versus mostly everyone? That he damages himself with ever electric attack? That his attacks reach only about one millimeter in each direction? And uh, I'm guessing Mewtwo is better off with items because he has more range than most and his dash attack with items is pretty damaging, and it looks cool when he wields items. Again, nifty additions, but nothing that would really make a difference anyway.

abrupt end of post

 

[Degreez]

More aerial battles huh? I'm curious what they are changing about them... I've heard suggestions like, aerial smashes and then the normal air attacks. But i still somewhat think that the five air attacks are more than enough. but still looking forward to the changes.

Moves make you go sideways more than downwards, and an extra jump, along with slower airtimes making you float longer. Just my guess.

 

[Nurok]

No one is making you play competetivly.
If you feel like playing with items, fine.
Just don't post useless posts(even though very long and very intellectual) about things that dont matter UNTIL early 2007. Also, don't start crying over Wavedashing and how it's unfair. I bet you that if you challenge a pro to a match WITHOUT wavedashing and WITH items, they'll still beat you. Thats why they're pro.
(and btw, didnt the creators of SSBM intentionally leave Wavedashing in the game, thinking it would make competitive gaming much more complicated?)Just my 2 cents

-edun

 

[gnosis]

(and btw, didnt the creators of SSBM intentionally leave Wavedashing in the game, thinking it would make competitive gaming much more complicated?)

Sort of. Using an action replay, you can enter developer mode, and there you can see the status of what your character is doing. When you land normally from a fall, it switches to "Landing", and but when you skid from airdodging into the ground, it switches to 'Landing Fall Special'. Therefore they knew that an airdodge into the ground would cause you to skid forward, and wanted it in the game, but whether or not they realized how it would be used is unknown.

 

[nealdt]

Sort of. Using an action replay, you can enter developer mode, and there you can see the status of what your character is doing. When you land normally from a fall, it switches to "Landing", and but when you skid from airdodging into the ground, it switches to 'Landing Fall Special'. Therefore they knew that an airdodge into the ground would cause you to skid forward, and wanted it in the game, but whether or not they realized how it would be used is unknown.

Not quite. Landing Fall Special is the animation played when you hit the ground in the "flashing" state you get after air dodging, using an up+b, and a few other B moves. No one has ever been able to prove that wavedashing was intentionally put/left in the game (SuperDoodleMan even called the forum out on this, and was never given a reference or other evidence for the rumor that it was found in beta testing).

Other than that, I agree with everything gnosis has said, especially the points about customization: that casual players are free to ignore advanced tactics they find un-fun, so why deny such moves to the tournament crowd?

EDIT: link to SDM's thread.

 

[Scav]

So many things to address in this topic. I'll do my best to cover everything.

In regards to the first few posts, you are inccorectly assuming that competitive players and "fans" are making the same complaints. I haven't heard a single big-name competitive smasher stress out that much about supers. Either they will be in the game, or they won't. Either they'll be broken, or they won't. Competitive smashers aren't worried that the game will be "ruined" for competitive play. Why? Because the point is moot. If it's ruined, they'll move on to compete in other games. But, more likely, they'll adapt to the new system and become competitive in the new framework.

Also, this is not at all unique to the Smash community. Go read any nerd forum for any game. Every time a new Magic: The Gathering set comes out, everyone on the forums complains about how Wizards is ruining the game. Every time Blizzard comes out with a new World of Warcraft patch, if you look at the forums you would think that everyone in the world is quitting out of anger.

Why? Because the average fan is afraid of change. Don't worry, the complaints you see in this forum are perfectly normal. That doesn't make them right, but you don't need to take them seriously.

------

Next. Items. First, I'm going to digress and discuss why items are banned from tournament play. I've been hosting SSBM tournaments since before the Tournament room existed. Back in the day, we here in Texas followed the Californian school of thought: items on. We agreed that items were fundamental to the game of smash. In fact, most arguments for items are correct. They help balance characters, they limit camping, and make the game more unique.

That has *nothing* to do with why they are banned.

Someone earlier in the thread said that they only ban certain items. Why? Because they're either random, or too powerful. As a tournament host, I want a player to win because he has earned it. The goal is to limit any random occurance. A bobomb dropping from the air is a random occurence, and if it happens in the finals on the last stock, I'll be very sad.

The more random and chaotic a game gets, the more it is "balanced," but only in that a less skilled player is able to beat a more skilled player. If I am going to lose to someone 99% of the time, but there is a 50% chance that he will get screwed by the random bomb drop, then that only favors me. Sure, there's a 50% chance that I'LL get screwed, but he was going to beat me anyways. That 50% chaos doesn't benefit the better player one bit.

So what items do be ban for power and randomness? Bobomb, pokeball, home run bat, hammer, star, mushrooms, health restorers, star rod. That's a LOT of banned items. Then, the metal box is the most powerful. But wait, it only benefits peach. That's not fair. So, in order to make items fair, you have to ban so many that you end up with a bunch of green shells and their equivalent. At that point, you might as well ban all items, because if you have even ONE turned on... you still have exploding capsules falling out of the sky.

But that was a really long tangent. It helps illustrate the difference between competitive and casual play. I love items, but they only belong in certain situations.

-------------

Gnosis, you made some great points, but some of your arguments are faulty. For instance:

You say no moving stages besides Icicle Mountain and Big Blue are banned, but that only leaves a few. Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats. Most tournaments ban at least 2 of those 3, if not all of them. Sure, a lot don't, but to say that they're never banned is incorrect.

And while it isn't entirely for the random aspect, that does play a role. Yes, the levels move the same way every time, but it still adds a dimension of play that some tournaments find detrimental.

Oh, and Brinstar Depths. Always banned, because the movement is exploitable. So yes, they're mostly banned because of exploiting the movement, but the fact that 90% of tournament goers HATE those levels plays a BIG role. Tournament Hosts want people to have a good time.

------

In summary, there isn't any hypocrisy involved. There are just so many different desires at work that it seems that way.

 

[nomis]

So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it.

Allow Cap'n Crunch to answer for me (in the wavedashing thread):

Yeah, this is from a while back, but seeing as how only one person only pointed out a couple things, I'll go ahead and refute this person's attempt at saying WDing should be out.

First of all, a lot of things in the game were made unbalanced, and WDing hasn't hurt characters, but has actually made it more balanced (keep in mind though, the changes due to WDing are relatively insignificant in comparison to JCing, atuo-canceled moves, and LCing). Where would Luigi, Samus, and the ICs be without WDing? Closer to the bottom than they are at the moment. Of the top tiers, Fox is the only one that makes a lot of use of his WD, everyone else can get by fine without it, although it would take some adjustment. So really, when you look at how it's affected balance, it hasn't made nearly as much of a difference as you think. Marth can get some good use out of it in some cases, but as Ken has shown, WDing scarcely with Marth is not a bad thing. Then realize that Sheik, Falco, Peach, Falcon, and Jiggs (5 out of the top 8) have terrible WDes that are hardly used for much more than sliding off platforms and edgehogging (not even the best option for either), and you should also realize that there is nothing cheap, gamebreaking, or banworthy about WDing. If anything was to be voted most gamebreaking, it would be chainthrowing first and JCing a shine second. Sheik's CG was nerfed in PAL, showing that the devs did have concerns about the balance of that and other things that they took out, but they left in WDind and JCing, two things which, if you guys are correct (keep in mind that you aren't), should have been taken out when the devs learned of the glitch (although it's not a glitch and was known about) and thought it ruined many parts of the game they worked so hard to create. As for ground speed, Luigi's WD is still slower than Falcon, only Luigi's misfire is faster when going across FD.

As for your second point, you're saying that every character uses WDing for most of their movement, which is just ignorant. As I pointed out above, 5 out of the best 8 characters barely WD in matches, and would usually be better off with someone else. 2 of the best 8 do use it a lot, and they wouldn't be as good as they were if WDing weren't there, Samus would be mid tier at best. Nothing about the game is made more shallow, since when is giving more options make something shallower, especially if some of the original options were obsolete to begin with (samus' roll/run). I don't think you can actually support that skill, creativity, quick reflexes, and anticipation are ruined by WDing. And if you think you do, then I'd direct you to Chu's ICs. There's really no better example of the game being made so much deeper than the ICs, and how Chu has mastered them, can create ridiculous combos on the fly, anticipates DI and attacks, and uses his amazingly quick reflexes to WD and grab again. So, if WDing was not in the game, then he wouldn't be able to take advantage of any other movement option to skillfully and consistently destroy the opponent. I don't see how making the aspects you named so much deeper and complex can be shallowing them, please explain and support your argument before making such wild assertions.

As for whatever you tried to say in your last paragraph, there's no way that having someone be more unexpected and less predictable can decrease mindgames. That's the entire reason people dashdance, throw out moves that aren't meant to hit, and WD, it's meant to throw the other person off so that they make a mistake, predict what you're going to do wrong and get punished, and all the stuff you said is lessened by WDing is really enhanced and made all the more important because of the fact that they can move with WDing. However, that really only applies to people with good WDes, Luigi would be nothing without WDing, can you imagine someone trying to fake you out with a Samus dashdance, ICs would also be left with scarcely a thing, and Mewtwo would be even worse somehow. You still have to analyze your opponent, and Marth and Falcon, even without WD can trick people into attacking by Dash dancing all over the place and then punishing them when the person misses. People still have patterns with WDing and other things too, and if you really think that just because someone WDes to move, even with a character that has no use for it (5 out of the 8 best, remember?), you should really try using some logic before arguing about it again.

I remember during the initial preparation for this game, that everyone was complaining about Melee turning into "just another fighter". One such argument: If they added Supers into it, that's a bad thing. Well, they sure as heck added Supers to it, didn't they? And they did a fine job at it too, by making it 'optional' for all you 'pros' who don't like fighting with items and only play on certain levels. This is where your hypocrisy comes in: If you don't want this game to be just like any other fighter, why are you trying so hard to make it like one? You remove items. Why? Because they take away from the skill required to play? No, you take them out because they're "random" and it makes the game "unfair". Bull. Items make the game more frantic, and add the chaos factor that regular fighters don't have. You play only on a small selection of levels, and you ALWAYS get rid of the moving levels, such as Poke Floats. Why? Because they're "random" and it's makes the game "unfair". Bull. The moving levels make the game more fun by making the players have to concentrate on more than just their opponent, something that regular fighters don't have.

Hypothetical situation:
I'm a boxer that has been training since childhood to become champ of the heavyweight division. So I work my *** off for about 15 years and finally I get my championship fight. Then right when I'm about to deliver my final blow to win the round, someone throws a hammer at my face, I fall to the ground, and the ref counts to 10.
Where is the reward for all my hard work? Has it all gone to waste because of some stupid random factor being in the game? So do I have to adapt to this randomness? Let's say I do.
So I'm doing pretty well in my rematch, and I've been throwing hammers etc. throughout the round. Then, uh oh, bob-omb happens to drop right under my opponents hands. Well, that's great. I guess in SSB luck should be the ultimate factor and not skill, right?
Let's say I'm playing in a SSBB tournament and it's the finals. I'm losing to my opponent pretty badly, so I unplug his controller and shoot him in the leg. My excuse: Tough ****, the game should be frantic and chaotic!

By cutting certain levels and removing items, you completely destroy certain characters' only good qualities.

Yeah, having a handicap for one of the characters is very fair.

Also, you claim that by changing the gameplay and certain characters, that people will have to learn the game all over again. Guess what? Did you play the original Smash Bros.? THen, did you play Melee? Well, answer me this: Didn't you have to relearn certain aspects of the game? yes? Good, then stop complaining.

Progress and change are good in certain circumstances, but there is a point where the change would be absurd. This point where all the strategies, moves and other characteristics of the previous titles become useless is simply going too far.

 

[lengeta]

People are just scared because the game they love is being fiddled with. I think most of us trust Nintendo and know we'll end up with a new kickace game, but it still makes fans, both hard-core and casual, uneasy when they know gameplay going to be tweaked. But I don't see how one can defend items and attack wavedashing, it sounds to me like your contridicting yourself. Items rock, and they can make the game way more fun, especally in 4-way battles. But I also agree they don't work very well in tournament play; I don't want to win a tournament because the hammer landed next to me.

 

[WiiPlaya77]

Hahaha, I had to join this board just because of this topic, usually I just glance over these types of topics and move on, but this guy hit all the buttons. Now my three cents...

Hopefully the definition of "pro" will change with this game, once it's online and more people can participate in tournaments and fights. I have always turned items off and pretty much only played on Final Destination anytime I fight someone one on one who wants to fight me, but at the same time, I think that the "randomness" of items and stages is something that should be left in tournaments, luck is always present in any competition, and knowing how to use what happens to your advantage is a part of mastering the game.

So I definitely agree with the first post, and yes, wavedashing is nice, but it is one of the things that should be kept out of an online game, or made into an "actual" move, because it will end up becoming like snaking and alienate new players who want to play online, and that's something the "Wii" doesn't stand for. If they're going to leave it in, they have to at least explain in the instruction booklet or tutorial exactly how to do it, and for god sakes don't make it look so fake and glitchy.

Bring on the changes. I'm **** good at SSBM, and I nor no one should be afraid of the playing field being leveled a bit because of change. Instead of everyone trying to focus on specializing in something in a game, or the game itself, true masters adapt. To anything. Items, stages, supers, all of it, you should kick *** when everything's turned on, and when playing single-button mode, because specialization breeds weakness...

 

[gnosis]

To nealdt:

Oh? Interesting. I said that because I just got an AR on Friday and was messing around with it, and noticed LFS showing up whenever I wavedashed. Then I vaguely remembered someone saying that was what appeared for the airdodge-skid-effect. Thanks for the correction.

To Scav:

True. I'd forgotten about Brinstar Depths, so for a lot of tournaments, it's 50/50 on movement. I said 'never' more as counter-hyperbole to his incorrect hyperbole. Maybe he was talking about Japanese tournaments? =)

 

[Scav]

s
Bring on the changes. I'm **** good at SSBM, and I nor no one should be afraid of the playing field being leveled a bit because of change. Instead of everyone trying to focus on specializing in something in a game, or the game itself, true masters adapt. To anything. Items, stages, supers, all of it, you should kick *** when everything's turned on, and when playing single-button mode, because specialization breeds weakness...

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way.

Yes, better players will usually win regardless of the format. But at the same time, a format like Team Attack Off Time Mode is so chaotic that the only people who win are those who train at being chaotic and random. They know how to best harness the ridiculousness, but their talents don't translate to any other part of the game. Learning to be chaotic is not as widely applicable as learning to be controlled.

And, getting back to my argument about items:

Lets say I'm a ton better than you. I beat you 99 out of 100 games. We are both down to our last stock. At any given time during our last stock, there is, say, a 10% chance that a bobomb will fall out of the air and kill one of us.

That means there is a 5% chance that it will kill me, and a 5% chance that it will kill you.

So, assuming that all of our games go to the last stock, but I win 99/100, then that 5% bomb drop chance doesn't help me, the better player, at all. However, it means that you win 5 games out of 100, rather than 1.

That's why randomness always favors less skilled players.

 

[WiiPlaya77]

lol, the problem with wavedashing is that it's not taught by the game or any published guide, it's an "underground" move that once found out, exploded, so yes it's a part of SSBM, but out of everything they cut out, that should've been the first to go. An item falling randomly was put into the game and apparent to every player who plays. When a boxer or basketball player slips, or the sun is in a receiver's eyes, or the wind blows the football into or out of the field goal posts for the win, those are factors that have to be adapted to, if someone gets a star or hammer, you'd better be good at evading, if they throw a pokeball, prepare for what could come out, items add just as much strategy as they do luck, and even the cheapest stages *cough*terminabay*cough* are things that have to be adapted to, you can't say you're the best as a whole if your playing specialized.

Scav edit: It looks like you should read the rest of the topic before posting. Or at least quote what you're responding to. Rather than respond to this in its own post, I'll just hijack yours.

L Canceling wasn't in the instruction manual, but it was purposefully programmed in. Should they take that out?

What about Samus' extended grapple, or Fox's special taunt?

 

[nomis]

lol, the problem with wavedashing is that it's not taught by the game or any published guide, it's an "underground" move that once found out, exploded, so yes it's a part of SSBM, but out of everything they cut out, that should've been the first to go. An item falling randomly was put into the game and apparent to every player who plays. When a boxer or basketball player slips, or the sun is in a receiver's eyes, or the wind blows the football into or out of the field goal posts for the win, those are factors that have to be adapted to, if someone gets a star or hammer, you'd better be good at evading, if they throw a pokeball, prepare for what could come out, items add just as much strategy as they do luck, and even the cheapest stages *cough*terminabay*cough* are things that have to be adapted to, you can't say you're the best as a whole if your playing specialized.

I'm not trying to be offensive but you just don't understand. Read what Scav has to say. Then read it again. Please. And people have covered wavedashing extensively in this thread.

 

[WiiPlaya77]

favoring the less skilled shouldn't matter to those who are highly skilled, the less skilled won't make it that far in a tournament, and if it isn't a tournament, then it will be obvious who's better, if one loses by fluke, then so be it, it's not really about winning.