Tier List Speculation

[941]

Am I the only one who mashes out of grabs no matter which character I'm playing against? All this salt about ICs and they aren't even good. I would love to see how people react if anyone ever actually gets good with the character.

 

[mimgrim]

Code it to the Dpad so that mashing it while set to taunt still counts as mashing for grabs

Still mashing, but shouldnt damage important parts

Doesn't the footstool taunts were given allow them to now be used for mashing?

And isn't the most optimal way for mashing out of grab by just moving the C-stick like a mad man anyway?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Doesn't the footstool taunts were given allow them to now be used for mashing?

And isn't the most optimal way for mashing out of grab by just moving the C-stick like a mad man anyway?

in Melee iirc cstick doesn't mash (or not very well) and in PM pressing it once and not releasing it back to neutral only counts as one c-stick input, rotating it for example does nothing really

Really the best way to "fix" mashing is force it to use the control stick only, and set an upper-limit on how fast you can rotate the stick to be effective. Then you adjust how many inputs are needed to break grabs/sleep/freeze/etc at each percents to be less. A maximum number of inputs, where each on has to be in a different quadrant, like smash DI. That way the only way to mash is to risk bad DI on quick throws. Letting face buttons mash too could be fine I guess, but not if you let each one mash every other frame like it is now, because then mashing control stick becomes way less needed and you could basically just DI with control stick while getting almost-optimal mashing with the face buttons. As it is now, you can basically do that by running your thumb across the face buttons, into the c-stick, and back, over and over, while holding the control stick to DI, and you get a lot of inputs while not risking DI at all. What's even the reason not to mash? To save controller wear and tear? That's kinda stupid- the only reason to avoid making an in-game decision is something outside the game.

 

[steelguttey]

my olimar matchup spread

 

[PlateProp]

my olimar matchup spread

Also your 45:55 is backwards

 

[steelguttey]

Also your 45:55 is backwards

click the sad face

 

[The Baron]

Guys, I had a dream last night that I downloaded 3.6 and found out they nerfed Zelda again. Could this be a sign? D:

I like this dream. Please have more like it. Also please dream that they replaced wolf blkaster with like, I dunno, another shine or something. That'd be cool.

click the sad face

You've got marth on there twice. Also is lack of sex kick nair and good laser lock down why wolf loses to olimar 55-45?

 

[steelguttey]

You've got marth on there twice. Also is lack of sex kick nair and good laser lock down why wolf loses to olimar 55-45?

AHHH

and basically olimar loses to spacies because of lasers and wolf's lasers dont **** on olimar enough. oli's punish game on wolf is just sicknasty too

 

[skellitorman]

What's even the reason not to mash? To save controller wear and tear? That's kinda stupid- the only reason to avoid making an in-game decision is something outside the game.

There was actually a thread a while back that addressed this issue.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mashing-the-game-mechanic.357987/


The argument against mashing is as follows:

Being able to mash well is a technical barrier that adds nothing of competitive value to the game. Therefore it should be removed as it is an unwanted and unnecessary hindrance.

Since throws are what is being discussed here, an example of a change that would reflect the argument would be:

Suppose grabs always released in 30 frames without a throw input (regardless of percent), but pummeling and mashing out of throws were both removed. What would change from a competitive point of view?

Saving controller wear and tear is just another positive result of such a change, that many players would appreciate.

 

[DMG]

steel is ur chart for real? 70:30 on CF?

???

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

in Melee iirc cstick doesn't mash (or not very well) and in PM pressing it once and not releasing it back to neutral only counts as one c-stick input, rotating it for example does nothing really

Really the best way to "fix" mashing is force it to use the control stick only, and set an upper-limit on how fast you can rotate the stick to be effective. Then you adjust how many inputs are needed to break grabs/sleep/freeze/etc at each percents to be less. A maximum number of inputs, where each on has to be in a different quadrant, like smash DI. That way the only way to mash is to risk bad DI on quick throws. Letting face buttons mash too could be fine I guess, but not if you let each one mash every other frame like it is now, because then mashing control stick becomes way less needed and you could basically just DI with control stick while getting almost-optimal mashing with the face buttons. As it is now, you can basically do that by running your thumb across the face buttons, into the c-stick, and back, over and over, while holding the control stick to DI, and you get a lot of inputs while not risking DI at all. What's even the reason not to mash? To save controller wear and tear? That's kinda stupid- the only reason to avoid making an in-game decision is something outside the game.

as the system currently is, what's the most "optimal" way to mash?

 

[steelguttey]

steel is ur chart for real? 70:30 on CF?

???

ya

side b stops falcon from dding and it forces him from doing 2 things, 1. go to the other side of the stage and nair to get the pikmin off (oli can just throw a pikmin then start it over again until he forces falcon to do something) or 2. try to approach olimar with a nair, which means he will get either a pivot fsmash or a purple side b to the mouth. captain falcon just cant do falcon things in that mu, plus oli's punish game on falcon is sicknasty

 

[RelaxAlax]

^ I can agree with most of your list (to the matchups i've played alot of) considering I'm one of the only other Oli players around lol. Falcon is a fun matchup for Oli. You can crouch under alot of his aerial approaches and Pikmin stuff him in neutral and offstage.

Fox, Ike and Marth can be challenging though...

 

[iPunchKidsz]

I love how many Lucarios I see at Nationals.

 

[Bazkip]

Ally loses to a Bowser (Master WGS) and a Squirtle (Dirtboy) to get 13th place.

Turtles confirmed top tier.

 

[Jonyc128]

my olimar matchup spread

Scanned that MU spread 3 times and i see a lack of

 

[O ciN]

Ally loses to a Bowser (Master WGS) and a Squirtle (Dirtboy) to get 13th place.

Turtles confirmed top tier.

I must confess that actually made me laugh

 

[941]

Shoutouts to Fumbles and Tetraflora for verifying that platform camping ICs is an effective strategy, as well as demonstrating how dysfunctional ICs really are. Also shoutouts to Randall for KOing Nana in Fumbles set against Oro.
"Hylian, Please fix this character!"- MerzA, 2015

 

[SpiderMad]

as the system currently is, what's the most "optimal" way to mash?

The Brawl method involving crazy stuff, located in the Brawl forums

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-lab-info-dump.353758/#post-13758573
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4pHZUJGG0k
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-bbr-tier-list-v5.287382/page-171#post-11847996

If I fully understood it, or even used it for that matter, I'd make a PMDepot video on it

 

[Ariyo]

my olimar matchup spread

Sheik must be completely unwinnable because I don't see her on the list.

 

[O ciN]

my olimar matchup spread

Hmmmm....
After loads of close inspection it seems pretty solid and agreeable... Although it appears as though you've missed , or maybe I just can't find them on your list...
.
.
.
I think I'm hilarious

 

[steelguttey]

Sheik must be completely unwinnable because I don't see her on the list.

yea its not there but its 65-35 in her favor

 

[PlateProp]

Hmmmm....
After loads of close inspection it seems pretty solid and agreeable... Although it appears as though you've missed , or maybe I just can't find them on your list...
.
.
.
I think I'm hilarious

inb4 @Strong Ban'd

edit: inb4 reverse @Strong Ban'd

 

[Jonyc128]

yea its not there but its 65-35 in her favor

and what about the Hero of the Mushroom Kingdom?

 

[Ripple]

Is D3 low tier yet?

 

[steelguttey]

and what about the Hero of the Mushroom Kingdom?

60-40 in mario's favah

 

[Foo]

(imma start doing this to people trololololol)

 

[mimgrim]

Is D3 low tier yet?

How can a character who goes good against many of the popular characters/top tiers be low tier? Especially when one of those characters he is good against is the best character in the game (and by extension most popular)?

Like I get he has bad/horrible MUs and all but a good MU against Fox is worth way more then a very bad MU against Ivy.

 

[CORY]

How can a character who goes good against many of the popular characters/top tiers be low tier? Especially when one of those characters he is good against is the best character in the game (and by extension most popular)?

Like I get he has bad/horrible MUs and all but a good MU against Fox is worth way more then a very bad MU against Ivy.

well, the best example i can think of that's analogous to this is bang in vanilla blazblue. he was pretty bad (i think maybe 2nd or 3rd worst?), but he had an amazing game against nu, one of the top 3 (might've been straight up 2nd best, just under rachel). and like, it was almost counter character good.

i don't know ddd's matchup spread, but there's a much larger roster in pm than there was in vanilla bb, and ddd's fox matchup is just "not negative", don't think it's a "switch off of fox" good (correct me if i'm wrong, please. too lazy to go back and find ripple's opinion on it). if ddd's other matchups aren't super amazing as well, then his pretty good fox matchup (which is, granted, pretty important, but not an end all be all point of contention) only helps so much.

 

[O ciN]

inb4 @Strong Ban'd

edit: inb4 reverse @Strong Ban'd

Wait why? Am I missing something here, were those names not to be spoken? If so I'm sorry I didn't mean to cause a ruckus.

Hopefully no hard feelings though

 

[DrinkingFood]

my olimar matchup spread

How can sonic be even close to losing to olimar when he has so many easy very low commitment ways to rid himself of pikmin
side-b wavedash, nair are two notable examples
Pikmin shouldn't even bother him;beside that, he's so much ridiculously faster than a character that tries to force others to commit by fear of passive damage but can't even do that to sonic, meanwhile sonic should be able to move around quickly enough that he can just avoid a lot of pikmin anyways just by running underneath them, jumping halfway across the stage over them, etc, and when he can't they just get knocked off him quickly. Purples help a lot but unlike a lot of other matchups, purples are basically the only useful ones here in neutral

There was actually a thread a while back that addressed this issue.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mashing-the-game-mechanic.357987/

The argument against mashing is as follows:
Being able to mash well is a technical barrier that adds nothing of competitive value to the game. Therefore it should be removed as it is an unwanted and unnecessary hindrance.
Since throws are what is being discussed here, an example of a change that would reflect the argument would be:
Suppose grabs always released in 30 frames without a throw input (regardless of percent), but pummeling and mashing out of throws were both removed. What would change from a competitive point of view?
Saving controller wear and tear is just another positive result of such a change, that many players would appreciate.

I think I participated in that thread actually, I'm well aware of the arguments for/against it tho
I guess I thought about it but never actually did post there

There is some minor player-game and player-player interaction in the current system, it's just that it's not as well designed as it could be, and causes just as many problems as it does interaction for no reason. It could be both more interactive and less controller damaging, both plusses. Removing game elements isn't the way to go about fixing bad game design, you should address the issue directly instead of avoiding it. You can validate the existence of pummeling and mashing if you make them interact more- give obvious visual cues for a mashing opponent (just listening to clacking of controllers is a dumb way for this because it requires you to remove yourself from the game and pay attention to stuff outside it, and gives players listening to music or players with headphones a disadvantage), reduce the required inputs for mashing but also the mashing potential, and make mashing mostly done with the control stick (or entirely so) such that there's a kind of interaction where the grabber can choose to gain percent and risk a grab break with pummeling, or throw quickly for bad DI while losing potential percent; and the grabbee influences which happens and can make decisions on which is better for them in their given situation, by choosing to either allow additional damage but guarantee their good DI, or risk bad DI against an early throw so they can possibly save themselves damage short-term.

as the system currently is, what's the most "optimal" way to mash?

Probably:
Set each dpad button to grab and rotate it for two inputs (shield+attack) per press, 8 per rotation
Claw with left hand to DI on control stick
Mash shoulder buttons (both if you can but tough while clawing
slide thumb diagonally across face buttons so you hit all the buttons, and down far enough to hit the c-stick, then back across the face buttons, ad nauseum, each repetition gives 4 face button inputs (or more if you have some of them set to grab) plus two directions and another input per tap of the cstick (two directions because one when the cstick out prioritizes the control stick for one frame, then the control stick takes back over the next frame)
and you can do all this while still DIing
Mash the pause button to mess up your opponents pummeling timing
alternatively, you might not use the d-pad, because taking your thumb off the control stick gives you less control vs throws where you barely have enough reaction time to change DI, like charizards fthrow vs bthrow- the fthrow is quick enough to react to by itself but the bthrow you need to react from the point of the grab, otherwise he gets a follow-up off the bthrow, so you'd change DI once you saw the fthrow. So in this case, you'd just skip the part about the d-pad and still get tons of inputs anyway, you could even wiggle the stick back and forth in the general direction you want to DI, getting additional inputs and not risking much in the way of DI ability.

 

[DrinkingFood]

oops double post

 

[SpiderMad]

Probably:
Set each dpad button to grab and rotate it for two inputs (shield+attack) per press, 8 per rotation
Claw with left hand to DI on control stick
Mash shoulder buttons (both if you can but tough while clawing
slide thumb diagonally across face buttons so you hit all the buttons, and down far enough to hit the c-stick, then back across the face buttons, ad nauseum, each repetition gives 4 face button inputs (or more if you have some of them set to grab) plus two directions and another input per tap of the cstick (two directions because one when the cstick out prioritizes the control stick for one frame, then the control stick takes back over the next frame)
and you can do all this while still DIing
Mash the pause button to mess up your opponents pummeling timing
alternatively, you might not use the d-pad, because taking your thumb off the control stick gives you less control vs throws where you barely have enough reaction time to change DI, like charizards fthrow vs bthrow- the fthrow is quick enough to react to by itself but the bthrow you need to react from the point of the grab, otherwise he gets a follow-up off the bthrow, so you'd change DI once you saw the fthrow. So in this case, you'd just skip the part about the d-pad and still get tons of inputs anyway, you could even wiggle the stick back and forth in the general direction you want to DI, getting additional inputs and not risking much in the way of DI ability.

Did you read up on the Brawl method I linked?

 

[DrinkingFood]

dunno when you linked it or where, I might have and just forgot
if it doesn't allow you to also DI at the same time, it can't be that great

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ally loses to a Bowser (Master WGS) and a Squirtle (Dirtboy) to get 13th place.

Turtles confirmed top tier.

PMDT please take note - the loss to WGS is confirmed basically entirely because of how wildly unintuitive Bowser is to play against.

Yes, I'm on my honeymoon. She isn't awake yet. Shut up.

 

[PlateProp]

PMDT please take note - the loss to WGS is confirmed basically entirely because of how wildly unintuitive Bowser is to play against.

Yes, I'm on my honeymoon. She isn't awake yet. Shut up.

M2K just lied to us about Ike being op

 

[robosteven]

steel your tier list is silly ike is even captain falcon is way too high and he bodies puff

 

[steelguttey]

How can sonic be even close to losing to olimar when he has so many easy very low commitment ways to rid himself of pikmin
side-b wavedash, nair are two notable examples
Pikmin shouldn't even bother him;beside that, he's so much ridiculously faster than a character that tries to force others to commit by fear of passive damage but can't even do that to sonic, meanwhile sonic should be able to move around quickly enough that he can just avoid a lot of pikmin anyways just by running underneath them, jumping halfway across the stage over them, etc, and when he can't they just get knocked off him quickly. Purples help a lot but unlike a lot of other matchups, purples are basically the only useful ones here in neutral

pikmin stop people from dashdancing and weaving. thats how they work. they must throw out an attack or approach, and sonic's approaches, while fast, can really be shut down by purple side b or pivot fsmash. saying that purples are the only useful ones doesnt really make sense because pivot fsmash on every other color does the same thing as purple side b, just a bit slower. still stops movement.

steel your tier list is silly ike is even captain falcon is way too high and he bodies puff

ok ok hold the **** up

we are the perfect combo weight for ike, and he has a giant ****ing tree sword. he destroys us, im starting to think its worse than marth. its not even qd were worried about, its his giant nair and fair and how much we get pooped on because we have an easy combo weight when he grabs us. the only real saving grace we have in this matchup is our ability to stuff qd but good ikes will adapt to that. olimar really does destroy falcon tho. falcon cant dash dance with a pikmin on him and our disjoints stuff all approach options he has, especially purple side b. our punishes on him should be illegal for how much they hurt, just bthrow and then edgeguard with fsmash and its a stock, it really is sad. puff is hard because we kill her really early if we have a purple but we dont really have an answer to bair weaving because unlike other characters her ways of getting pikmin off her are very very good, like nair and bair. if anything its even or slightly in her favor.

 

[robosteven]

I'm starting to get the feeling that you actually think Pikmin Throw makes or breaks matchups. Ike's manageable and you're blowing it out of proportion. All of Olimar's moves that aren't side-b trash Puff.

A good Falcon runs past side-b and actually knows how to approach. He can body Olimar with punishes about as much as Olimar can body him. I refuse to believe it's as slanted in Oli's favor as you claim.

 

[steelguttey]

I'm starting to get the feeling that you actually think Pikmin Throw makes or breaks matchups. Ike's manageable and you're blowing it out of proportion. All of Olimar's moves that aren't side-b trash Puff.

A good Falcon runs past side-b and actually knows how to approach. He can body Olimar with punishes about as much as Olimar can body him. I refuse to believe it's as slanted in Oli's favor as you claim.

it does tho. its like, 90% of olimars gameplan really. i can go on and on on how ****ing stupid that move is but basically it takes all unpredictability out of the opponent and forces them to press a button and get punished for it. it really is one of the best projectiles in the game. but anyway

..you gonna say why its manageable or what? isnt exactly an argument there. and not really, she can kinda space with bair all day and the only thing that really beats it is yellow fair and idk maybe its because that mu is so reliant on getting a purple that i dont like it? which brings us back to the rng thing but whatever.

you cant run past side b because the trajectory it goes, it covers run approaches except yellow side b. yes his punishes are good on olimar but theyre good on everybody, its kinda the same argument with fox (pls dont start talking about fox again guys) where it doesnt matter how hard everyone's punish game on him is, he still wins neutral and gets punishes easier and ****s you just as hard. except with falcon in this matchup, neutral is completely skewedi n our favor because side b stops falcon's neutral. he cant dashdance with a pikmin on him, so he cant weave out of our disjoints, he cant approach with nair because pivot fsmash or purple side b and most importantly he cant get jab/grab mixups because he cant get clsoe enough to do it because pivot grab. its like olimar was made to kill falcon lol