Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

This may be just me, but I find Charizard's combo game incredibly dull looking. Jab to upair to upair to upb just looks dull to me. The only things that have some weight and impact to them are sideb and fair sweetspots. Pretty much everything else is kinda like "poof-de-doo, I touched you with my wing and now you're in hitstun for a year, so that even my fat legs can get to you in time. Here, take this silly looking upb and float away." Someone please make him actually feel like the cool dragon mofo he is.

A lot of this may be just salt talking

 

[AceGamer]

This may be just me, but I find Charizard's combo game incredibly dull looking. Jab to upair to upair to upb just looks dull to me. The only things that have some weight and impact to them are sideb and fair sweetspots. Pretty much everything else is kinda like "poof-de-doo, I touched you with my wing and now you're in hitstun for a year, so that even my fat legs can get to you in time. Here, take this silly looking upb and float away." Someone please make him actually feel like the cool dragon mofo he is.

A lot of this may be just salt talking

Lol what you're saying sounds more like an animation issue so if you want that fixed talk to SilentDoom or Fireball Stars X). And hey F-Smash has some weight to it too

 

[PlateProp]

Apparently I was on the wrong tab when I posted this

THANKS STRONG BAD

<3

no problem bro

 

[NWRL]

I agree that just because a move is "really good" doesn't mean that move should be nerfed, but there are some moves that are too strong. If there are moves that characters have that work well even with poor execution, those moves can reward players for making not-so-good decisions. Right now Roy's D-tilt is a little too strong because of how rewarding it is to land, even with suboptimal spacing, as well as not being easy to punish. Not to say Roy is broken or his D-tilt is broken, it's just slightly too rewarding for the amount of risk it has.

What would suboptimal spacing mean? For Roy or just generally? Good spacing would be at the tip if we're avoiding a situation in which Roy would be at risk for getting hit. His sweet spot is optimal spacing for himself but suboptimal from a pure fundamentals standpoint. If he hits with dtilt he should be rewarded, and trying to decrease the reward is dumb and makes for a boring kit. You could do something like increase the frame at which he can IASA so there's more commitment to the move.

If you really want to nerf Roy and Ike, start by removing things that are just excessive.

The "armor" on Eruption that allows it to break juggles and rewards bad positioning. That should be removed

Roy's float after he uses his ^B, dumb, should be removed.

Both of these changes serve to accentuate the weaknesses of either character, suddenly Ike is more susceptible to juggles and thus has to play smarter to avoid getting In a position where he can be juggled.

If you have Roy's up B match Melee, he suddenly has a weak, exploitable recovery that is offset by an incredible on stage presence. As it stands right now the float allows Roy to grab ledge in situations where he should be dead.

 

[Boiko]

If he hits with dtilt he should be rewarded, and trying to decrease the reward is dumb and makes for a boring kit. You could do something like increase the frame at which he can IASA so there's more commitment to the move.

These two points are contradictory to a degree. If you increase the lag at the end of the move, he won't be able to follow up on a portion of the case, specifically those that are floaty, heavy, or super fast fallers.

Lunchables already stated that the best way to tone down Roy's dtilt is it to decrease BKB at the tip to 70 from 90 so it can be CC'd. Makes much more sense, IMO.

 

[Blank Mauser]

This may be just me, but I find Charizard's combo game incredibly dull looking. Jab to upair to upair to upb just looks dull to me. The only things that have some weight and impact to them are sideb and fair sweetspots. Pretty much everything else is kinda like "poof-de-doo, I touched you with my wing and now you're in hitstun for a year, so that even my fat legs can get to you in time. Here, take this silly looking upb and float away." Someone please make him actually feel like the cool dragon mofo he is.

A lot of this may be just salt talking

So a flying dragon shouldn't chase you into the air?

Compared to other launchers jab isn't very disjointed. And if Zard is getting uair > uair > up-b consistently on you...poor DI?

 

[Soft Serve]

So a flying dragon shouldn't chase you into the air?

Compared to other launchers jab isn't very disjointed. And if Zard is getting uair > uair > up-b consistently on you...poor DI?

I think he just wants it too look cooler. He's a cool fire dragon, but for the most part he kills you by poking you with his wings

 

[Scatz]

Seismic Toss air command grab. Bam.

 

[Leafeon]

Seismic Toss air command grab. Bam.

Charicide....?

 

[Scatz]

Can't. You hit an invisible floor that prevents suicides.

 

[steelguttey]

i would like if charizard got a real uthrow and flame breath was replaced with s toss

 

[Deleted member]

These two points are contradictory to a degree. If you increase the lag at the end of the move, he won't be able to follow up on a portion of the case, specifically those that are floaty, heavy, or super fast fallers.

Lunchables already stated that the best way to tone down Roy's dtilt is it to decrease BKB at the tip to 70 from 90 so it can be CC'd. Makes much more sense, IMO.

idk if I mentioned it, but it also means that you can't really combo off of it at low %s. In 3.5 with 90bkb, it pops high enough to combo off of even with the decrease in damage compared to the sweetspot. In melee/if you make a build of it in PSA, roy can't combo nearly as well since they aren't popped up high enough and all he has to threaten them is tip fair from that distance, which once again at low % is still kind of mediocre.

 

[Boiko]

idk if I mentioned it, but it also means that you can't really combo off of it at low %s. In 3.5 with 90bkb, it pops high enough to combo off of even with the decrease in damage compared to the sweetspot. In melee/if you make a build of it in PSA, roy can't combo nearly as well since they aren't popped up high enough and all he has to threaten them is tip fair from that distance, which once again at low % is still kind of mediocre.

Sounds like a real good way to balance it then. Ultimately it would force him to either get in closer to hit with the sweet spot to start a string, or rack up more damage with pokes, thus making his neutral a bit more unsafe as he needs to make more commitments, until he can combo off of the tip.

I'm on board with this.

 

[Deleted member]

-Strong Bad was here

Ash is a loser-

 

[Narpas_sword]

-snip-

Directory: SD Card/projectm/pf/fighter/roy/FitRoy.pac

Remember when I mentioned Project Smash Attacks? Well, I decided that I'll make builds of discussed characters. You can all do this on your own, but I'll upload files if anyone actually cares

This build has 5+ endlag to roys side b turnaround and d tilt tip bkb changed from 90 -> 70
Editing Roys float is incredibly difficult and idk how to, someone like magus would have to do it.

Following a discussion on the samus boards, i tried to make a samus with skeik physics.
(the discussion was to have ice samus as a fastfaller / separate character as fusion samus)
it was pretty fun, other than not having any recovery in Bombs or upb (it didnt go anywhere, i assume this was becasue fall speed made the screw attack fall too fast)

Firing off missiles like falcos lasers was pretty powerful =p

 

[Ripple]

If it's anything like melee. You'll need to edit a FSM in that one folder where they all are kept. Although I have no idea what his character id is. Or what the up b id is

 

[Strong Badam]

Let's keep discussion on the current public version of Project M. It's certainly fine to suggest changes as a sidenote or discuss design in the context of character potency, since that's reasonably on topic, but you're reaching the point where you should be in Customized Content and not Tier List Discussion, Lunchables.

 

[Deleted member]

idk if I mentioned it, but it also means that you can't really combo off of it at low %s. In 3.5 with 90bkb, it pops high enough to combo off of even with the decrease in damage compared to the sweetspot. In melee/if you make a build of it in PSA, roy can't combo nearly as well since they aren't popped up high enough and all he has to threaten them is tip fair from that distance, which once again at low % is still kind of mediocre.

so it becomes like every other dtilt in the game? sign me up.

edit: SB making corpses

 

[Player -0]

Falco's D-Tilt though.

Also TLink's and a bunch of other characters but don't nerf pls

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Links D tilt is kind of like roys, but then isn't

It has a meteor at the tip thats only active for the first active frame, its stubbier, and the IASA is frame 25, +6 from roys (19)

The only part of the move that is actually similar is the fact that it pops you up in the middle of the blade.

 

[Thor]

What would suboptimal spacing mean? For Roy or just generally? Good spacing would be at the tip if we're avoiding a situation in which Roy would be at risk for getting hit. His sweet spot is optimal spacing for himself but suboptimal from a pure fundamentals standpoint. If he hits with dtilt he should be rewarded, and trying to decrease the reward is dumb and makes for a boring kit. You could do something like increase the frame at which he can IASA so there's more commitment to the move.

If you really want to nerf Roy and Ike, start by removing things that are just excessive.

The "armor" on Eruption that allows it to break juggles and rewards bad positioning. That should be removed

Roy's float after he uses his ^B, dumb, should be removed.

Both of these changes serve to accentuate the weaknesses of either character, suddenly Ike is more susceptible to juggles and thus has to play smarter to avoid getting In a position where he can be juggled.

If you have Roy's up B match Melee, he suddenly has a weak, exploitable recovery that is offset by an incredible on stage presence. As it stands right now the float allows Roy to grab ledge in situations where he should be dead.

Eruption sucks (outside of situational edgeguarding like Marth's shield breaker, and he generally has better tools like fair anyway), armor is fine. Charging rewards good timing and also allows people to bait it out and punish with stronger move [Marth could see he's charging it and wavedash back fsmash instead of just uairing again]. If you mean the immediate eruption, that requires a high degree of precision to time and also depends on opponent [again because they can bait it out].

Roy's float is I think a consequence of Brawl engine. It's maybe a little silly, but not really broken since with good timing one can plank (or straight up time I-frames) through the fire on up+B and gimp him anyway. People not doing so is why Roy lives, moreso than his extra airtime at the end.

Not gonna comment much on the dtilt discussion. Roy's is a little silly but really I'd just like to see it that people can't CC Link's dtilt [and/or dsmash] as easily, not that Roy's can be (I swear I've had it CC'd when the opponent was over 50% <_< [but I hope that's my imagination...]).

Also decreasing reward isn't dumb at all, if something violates risk/reward/reliability/[other Rs but those are the three big ones] it should have one of those areas compensated. If somehow Falco's shine OHKO'd all characters at 0%, it'd be nerfed to be less rewarding. Although not as extreme, if most people feel Roy's dtilt is too rewarding, it would either need to be made less rewarding, more risky [the delayed cancellability you suggested], or somehow less reliable [which probably means a slower startup dtilt or worsening Roy's CC so that he has to either land it from neutral or mid-combo string instead of actually CCing for it].

 

[941]

I can't find a working download link for PSA. If someone could link one so I could look at some of the data for these characters and not make a fool of myself I would appreciate it.

What exactly do you mean by "plank" through the fire on Up-B? I have a hard time with Roy's recovery because I feel like my best option is to always take the ledge and not try to gimp or chase off-stage. If there is a better way to deal with it I would like to learn how.

 

[Ripple]

It's frame 19 IASA... Doesn't make it safe on shield? Pretty sure marths in melee does less damage and has iasa on 21 and is still safe from grabs if he dashes back

 

[Strong Badam]

Both Marth and Roy's dtilts IASA frame 20 in both games.

 

[JOE!]

Could you imagine if Flamethrower was replaced by rock smash? Only make it fire fang with a chomp + flames instead of headbutt + rocks.

Sort of a Yolo punish/combo ender instead of a 100% punishable on hit non-hitstun, no flame cancel nspec...

 

[Idostuff]

I think one of the reasons that Zard feels underwhelming is because his niche is to hit people up into the air, chase with fly, then kill off the top with up air strings and up B. In regards to killing off the top, Zard is simply outclassed by Fox, so in a sense, why play Zard?

 

[JOE!]

I think one of the reasons that Zard feels underwhelming is because his niche is to hit people up into the air, chase with fly, then kill off the top with up air strings and up B. In regards to killing off the top, Zard is simply outclassed by Fox, so in a sense, why play Zard?

Everyone is outclassed by Fox

 

[Player -0]

You play Link, why not play Fox? He can camp better

 

[AceGamer]

Everyone is outclassed by Fox

This X) lol

 

[Ripple]

The reason zard feels underwhelming is because he has no approach and can't force others to approach at all. Even throwing jab out is a terrible idea. Its probably the worst approach in the game

 

[JOE!]

That's essentially true and covered by what I said about committal moves / unsafe on shield.

He has amazing ground speed and a great grab even with the nerf from brawl. The issue is that while fast, he has no forward facing options besides grab to gain space with, essentially only having the first hit of Nair or Bair which both are committal options and only kinda safe on a shield while not letting you get an advantage either.

At the same time, if he suddenly had like a fire blast projectile he'd be gahlike with his combo game and ground speed lol

 

[BluntedMask]

Zard has an approach man, you just gotta mask it with Dash dances and well spaced aerials. Like RAR nair with good spacing is safe on shield, so is a late FF bair. Even using his fair like a knee with falcon is safe with some good spacing, bar tether grabs at least. When he does get in his tech chases are matched by no others.
Zard can approach its just stupid hard sometimes.

He can pretty much 0-death the whole cast because of downb, ever see those Zard pillar combo? I mean **** even dthrow, if you react you can just tech chase till upthrow kill %. If they don't tech you get a free jab. His punish game is just insane.

 

[Ripple]

Zards DD is a false threat to anyone who realizes that his aerials can't be safe on shield. They can all be grabbed early or later unlike a knee at all. The only way to make fair safe is to use it while retreating. Hence, 0 approach options.

 

[JOE!]

Gonna have to agree with *Ripple from experience. Nair and bai r can be safe on shield but they don't really lead to anything if you hit a shield where it'd be safe. Zard has the speed to punish with a grab/whatever from DD if they commit, but has no way of truly forcing himself in outside of like a bait

Edit: wrote hylian instead of ripple lolol

 

[Idostuff]

Since we are talking about bad characters now. I think Link is bottom 5. All of the things people complained about got nerfed, and then so did everything else. He has trash tier mobility, with a terrible dash speed, DD length, 2nd worst WD, and jump height that goes nowhere. His boomerang doesn't set up for combos anymore until higher %s. Link doesn't have a move that he can jump offstage and intercept your recovery with, and then make it back himself, since all his aerials that he could survive using are too weak to kill people. Link's best bet at edgeguarding is to try and get his opponent to miss their sweetspot so Link can get them with a grounded Up-B. Here are some of my thoughts on his changes:

Warrented Nerfs:
-Boomerang: throw speed, it was way too spamable.
-Recovery: that was the theme of 3.5, fine with this.
-Uptilt: now it doesn't chain into itself x3 after d-throw.
-Dash Attack- same as Uptilt, doesn't chain into itself x3.

Gone Too Far Nerfs:
-Nair: PMDT decided to normalize KBG on sex kicks as if they were all created equal. Only Link's sweetspot (on his foot) nair does 11%. Fox's sex kick doesn't need to be sweetspoted to do 12%, plus his SHFFL speed is twice as fast as Link's. Link used to be able to jump off stage with a nair to stuff recoveries, now the move is so week that this just resets their UP-B and makes it easier for the opponent to come back.
-Boomerang: KB angle. The point of this move is to set up for a combo off a hit confirm, it no longer does that reliably
-F tilt: i always thought of this move as the inverse of dash attack, >tilt has slow startup, low endlag, and high horrizontal KB. Dash attack has low startup, high endlag, and high verticle KB. Ftilt used to kill horizontally at ~120%. Now it will never kill anyone, and frankly, this move serves no purpose in Link's current kit.
-Bombs: you wont see this on Link's changelog, but his bombs only go half the distance they used to when you throw them.

side question: i swear aerial up-B doesn't go as far. Either the hoz drift is less, verticle height is less, or the grab box is just smaller. There have been so many times where i have missed the ledge that i think i would have gotten if it were 3.0. Is there any truth to this?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I think one of the reasons that Zard feels underwhelming is because his niche is to hit people up into the air, chase with fly, then kill off the top with up air strings and up B. In regards to killing off the top, Zard is simply outclassed by Fox, so in a sense, why play Zard?

nah his niche is to STOMP EM IN DA NUTS

 

[LordKKs]

Why pit got soo ****ing bad? PM team wants to make the game tier list exactly like melee?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Why pit got soo ****ing bad? PM team wants to make the game tier list exactly like melee?

Yea man, i remember how good roy and lucario were in melee.

 

[Player -0]

Since we are talking about bad characters now. I think Link is bottom 5. All of the things people complained about got nerfed, and then so did everything else. He has trash tier mobility, with a terrible dash speed, DD length, 2nd worst WD, and jump height that goes nowhere. His boomerang doesn't set up for combos anymore until higher %s. Link doesn't have a move that he can jump offstage and intercept your recovery with, and then make it back himself, since all his aerials that he could survive using are too weak to kill people. Link's best bet at edgeguarding is to try and get his opponent to miss their sweetspot so Link can get them with a grounded Up-B. Here are some of my thoughts on his changes:

Warrented Nerfs:
-Boomerang: throw speed, it was way too spamable.
-Recovery: that was the theme of 3.5, fine with this.
-Uptilt: now it doesn't chain into itself x3 after d-throw.
-Dash Attack- same as Uptilt, doesn't chain into itself x3.

Gone Too Far Nerfs:
-Nair: PMDT decided to normalize KBG on sex kicks as if they were all created equal. Only Link's sweetspot (on his foot) nair does 11%. Fox's sex kick doesn't need to be sweetspoted to do 12%, plus his SHFFL speed is twice as fast as Link's. Link used to be able to jump off stage with a nair to stuff recoveries, now the move is so week that this just resets their UP-B and makes it easier for the opponent to come back.
-Boomerang: KB angle. The point of this move is to set up for a combo off a hit confirm, it no longer does that reliably
-F tilt: i always thought of this move as the inverse of dash attack, >tilt has slow startup, low endlag, and high horrizontal KB. Dash attack has low startup, high endlag, and high verticle KB. Ftilt used to kill horizontally at ~120%. Now it will never kill anyone, and frankly, this move serves no purpose in Link's current kit.
-Bombs: you wont see this on Link's changelog, but his bombs only go half the distance they used to when you throw them.

side question: i swear aerial up-B doesn't go as far. Either the hoz drift is less, verticle height is less, or the grab box is just smaller. There have been so many times where i have missed the ledge that i think i would have gotten if it were 3.0. Is there any truth to this?

I like how you casually changed your P:M main icon to Sheik instead of Link.

A lot of the stuff you said (well not a lot but some lel) is misinformed.
- Link's Nair is used for gimping, it's amazing still. Worse than Melee Link's Nair though so :l
- If all you think Link can do to edgeguard is Up-B then lel. Bomb option coverage + amazing Nair + sword. Also bow for harassment if they pick scrubby recovery options.
- Dash attack shouldn't be combo'ing into itself unless you're vs. spacies or CF or the such. Dash attack is pretty suboptimal in that case anyway (Peach's and Sheik's do the same thing anyway). Up-Tilt shouldn't be either.
- The horizontal drift was nerfed for sure. I've brought up the recovery to a couple of PMDT members and haven't gotten a clear cut response besides, "It acts like YLink's Up-B now." This doesn't mention horizontal changes or anything in the changelog or anything else so I'm kind of eh with the PMDT about that.
- The bomb change was under the general changelog iirc. Due to balance and "Because Melee."

I'm disappointed with a lot of Link changes too but make sure your information is correct or at least could be considered/mistaken for. The edgeguarding thing is your fault.

 

[MLGF]

Watching an Ike win a PM major isn't even impressive because he wins all dem Melee majors.

If Pit is the worst non broken character, that ain't bad. He probably better then Melee Ganon still.