Tier List Speculation

[Soft Serve]

it still travels over most character's heads, especially run animations. it's usable sometimes, but compared to most other projectiles its pretty bad, which was my initial point. half the time it doesn't even force them to shield (although I'm really interested in what the pan hitbox is like on shields)

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't know if you know this, but the new bacon being able to fast fall is usable in that sense. It's pretty dang good.

This is how I feel. Calling it "garbage" baffles me.

 

[jtm94]

it still travels over most character's heads, especially run animations. it's usable sometimes, but compared to most other projectiles its pretty bad, which was my initial point. half the time it doesn't even force them to shield (although I'm really interested in what the pan hitbox is like on shields)

Well, pan hitbox land cancels into 4 frames of lag like Falco lasers, so you get the idea.

Before using bacon was kind of a commitment, not in the sense of using it because it wasn't a resource before, but in that it didn't fast fall meaning SH bacon should always be SH double bacon because you could fit 2 in the same time and it was free. It zoned out way more space and made large characters hate GnW, but it was very meh against characters who could cut through it and those who were fast/short enough to run under it.
Now it's less of a commitment, but we just can't toss out as much as we want. Fast falling single bacon now means that the bacon you sent will touch the ground which is huge because if you aim it right they can't just run under it or it won't terminate before hitting them. I've been getting way more conversions off of new bacon than I ever did old bacon. Before it was just toss out a wall of free damage. Now it's think about how to place this to get the most use out of it.

 

[felipe_9595]

I think my only problem with the new bacon is the fact that 90% of the time using it for approach, i will end past the bacon i just threw,it's kinda dumb to use a projectile as an approach and end in the face of your opponent before the things has reached them.

 

[Juushichi]

I could probably say a bunch of stuff about GnW, but a lot of it I've already said or SB has said before. GnW mostly loses to the same **** he always has. Dakpo/Bidoof/SB are fantastic for doing well with a character that is only moderately strong.

Any GnW worth their salt (and some who aren't) will tell you that the character struggles in neutral, struggles to kill when facing proper responses to DI and still dies extremely early. His combo game is fantastic, assuming that you finish your plate all the time.

Start baiting Up-B OoS on defense, guys. It starts on frame 1, but doesn't hit until frame 8. Not invincible at all. Or just wait. You can reasonably react to his defensive options if you push him into shield and he struggles to get down.

 

[Ariyo]

Personally I find 3.5 Sonic much more rewarding to play. In 3.0 he was really good, but in all honesty he had moves that were really risk free in a lot of the cast, set up kill combos across the stage, and then comeback. (watch Ripple vs Wizzrobe, while it is not bad to a character to have bad matchups... they should not be as one sided). It took away that "wow" factor to much of his gameplay and made it felt not so rewarding to do. He still has good combos, a good punish game, good recovery compared to the rest of the cast and a lot of interesting setups which I'm still learning about (many were available in 3.0, but some of his b moves were so polarizing that people did not bother to experiment and look further into his stuff). Thanks to some of his move being not as polarizing as before, In my country people are also finding Sonic to be much more tolerable and fun to fight again as well (I am the only Sonic here btw).

It isn't really his core playstyle that I found boring, it's his lack of movement options. Before, he could do all of these tricky things with spinshots and side B's, which made him really unique and interesting. Now he just moves like everyone else, and doesn't have much of anything that sets him apart.

 

[jtm94]

It isn't really his core playstyle that I found boring, it's his lack of movement options. Before, he could do all of these tricky things with spinshots and side B's, which made him really unique and interesting. Now he just moves like everyone else, and doesn't have much of anything that sets him apart.

Thank the lord Magus.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Or a hookshot....

uhhhhhh


that's the joke...</woflcastle>

 

[jtm94]

Serious post time:
Sonic's, "risk-free" moves as you say were not changed at all. If you say he had them before, he has them now. Spin dash has more startup, doesn't have a pivot hitbox, but it acts exactly the same on shield and when it hits. You can immediately jump into any aerial. The timing of the aerial is based on %, but I have found it hard to escape it and I have been playing against primarily Sonic for months. It's just a pain that it beats out CC and it's so fast shielding it doesn't net me anything. Squirtle had his SideB gutted so he can't even turn and it doesn't autocombo as well, but Sonic retains his spins? I have to predict where he will be and throw out hitboxes hoping he makes a mistake. He is only more tolerable to play for 1 reason, and that's because he actually can die from not recovering now. The other thing that makes him somewhat tolerable is that his moves have negative disjoint so moves like Sheik nair/bair beat out every spin, but even then Sonic can just DD and space fly by fairs and bairs. His speed is just overwhelming, he has the worst grab range in the game, but his JC grab slides half a stage while active and SideB JCs into grab as well. I've SDId hard behind him, but when he JC grabs I get slingshot into it, some really sketchy stuff. You can SDI down and tech or SDI up, but honestly SDI is used very little in PM as a whole.

You kind of have to play against every Sonic differently. The character is like Pandora's Box. One second you're up 2 stocks, thirty seconds later it's a tied game. So volatile.

 

[RevengeOfTheStyle]

How do you all feel about Squirtle in S tier?

 

[_Chrome]

uhhhhhh


that's the joke...</woflcastle>

Yeah I got that lol

 

[Foo]

How do you all feel about Squirtle in S tier?

Depends on what you call S tier. I've seen some lists where S tier means the very best, and some where S tier is like mid. If Fox is SS+ tier, then sure, squirtle could be S.

 

[_Chrome]

How do you all feel about Squirtle in S tier?

Do you mind shedding any light on that? I don't see him there, from my match-up experience and observations. I see him being a balanced character, so I suppose I would denote him as being in my "mid-tier," along with a significant portion of the cast. To me, the game is pretty much about match-up spread and counterpicks; that said I think Squirtle is pretty average.

 

[mimgrim]

Serious post time:
Sonic's, "risk-free" moves as you say were not changed at all. If you say he had them before, he has them now. Spin dash has more startup, doesn't have a pivot hitbox, but it acts exactly the same on shield and when it hits. You can immediately jump into any aerial. The timing of the aerial is based on %, but I have found it hard to escape it and I have been playing against primarily Sonic for months. It's just a pain that it beats out CC and it's so fast shielding it doesn't net me anything. Squirtle had his SideB gutted so he can't even turn and it doesn't autocombo as well, but Sonic retains his spins? I have to predict where he will be and throw out hitboxes hoping he makes a mistake. He is only more tolerable to play for 1 reason, and that's because he actually can die from not recovering now. The other thing that makes him somewhat tolerable is that his moves have negative disjoint so moves like Sheik nair/bair beat out every spin, but even then Sonic can just DD and space fly by fairs and bairs. His speed is just overwhelming, he has the worst grab range in the game, but his JC grab slides half a stage while active and SideB JCs into grab as well. I've SDId hard behind him, but when he JC grabs I get slingshot into it, some really sketchy stuff. You can SDI down and tech or SDI up, but honestly SDI is used very little in PM as a whole.

You kind of have to play against every Sonic differently. The character is like Pandora's Box. One second you're up 2 stocks, thirty seconds later it's a tied game. So volatile.

Sonic in 3.5 almost makes me look like I actually know what I'm doing when I play this game with other people.

God I suck at this game, and every other Smash game for that matter, so hard. xD

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well someone has to suck

 

[Deleted member]

everyone sucks

no trust me, you do too

 

[jtm94]

Squirtle is still annoying to face which is a good attribute. It makes MUs seem harder than they are. SideB was annoying and still is, but now it's very straightforward what is going to happen instead of jumps and aqua jet out of nowhere as an attack or recovery option. It's kind of how Wario used to be able to jump and DJ almost immediately with SideB and he could also crouch to cancel SideB, but it had a hitbox that was safe on shield so there wasn't really a counterplay to it if Wario reacted correctly. Now Sonic is the only one left with a super stupid movement option....
But yeah Squirtle is just annoying to face because he's slippery, small, fast making him hard to hit and hitting his shield or him hitting yours slides him too far away to do things. As a character he's fine now in most every aspect.

It's hilarious just using Bubble against a Fox repeatedly off stage and then they complain how BS the move is and I respond with, "The move is only BS because it isn't frame 1 and jump cancellable right?"

 

[BBOY15]

Roy is easier to play, and people like meaty hits instead of finesse. Roy's the kind of character where you can Sloppy Joe the other person and not always die.

You get in their face, press some buttons, hold down sometimes, random Fsmash here and there...

It's nasty, it's raw, undercooked and sloppy and just unspectacular on all fronts, and you're not sure what's happening but they are dying so you roll with it.

Playing Roy is kind of like that if you're not the top echelon of Roy players, and for whatever reason IT ATTRACTS PEOPLE! So not Kawaii, everyone should play Marth instead!

Roy will always be our boy, and therefore cooler than Marth.

 

[Soft Serve]

Squirtle is still annoying to face which is a good attribute. It makes MUs seem harder than they are. SideB was annoying and still is, but now it's very straightforward what is going to happen instead of jumps and aqua jet out of nowhere as an attack or recovery option. It's kind of how Wario used to be able to jump and DJ almost immediately with SideB and he could also crouch to cancel SideB, but it had a hitbox that was safe on shield so there wasn't really a counterplay to it if Wario reacted correctly. Now Sonic is the only one left with a super stupid movement option....
But yeah Squirtle is just annoying to face because he's slippery, small, fast making him hard to hit and hitting his shield or him hitting yours slides him too far away to do things. As a character he's fine now in most every aspect.

It's hilarious just using Bubble against a Fox repeatedly off stage and then they complain how BS the move is and I respond with, "The move is only BS because it isn't frame 1 and jump cancellable right?"

To be fair the disjoint/range that bubble has for a semi spiking and tripping move is pretty crazy

 

[DMG]

Bubble would be dumb on an actually good character. Same with his Usmash

 

[CORY]

kind of like if you look at ganon's moveset individually, you'd think half of that stuff is pretty busted.

but it's attached to ganon, so it's fair.

 

[Soft Serve]

Slap ganon's moveset onto falcon and you have the best worst character in the game.

 

[Foo]

Slap ganon's moveset onto falcon and you have the best character in the game.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum

 

[DMG]

That character would still lose to like Falco and Fox probably

Some of Ganon's stuff would actually be a nerf for Falcon if you 100% swapped their kits

 

[shairn]

Give Falcon Ganon's bair, side B and upB... and that's pretty much it. Maybe his dthrow?

 

[CORY]

yeah, like, his dthrow is stuuuuuuuuuupid. but it's attached to ganon, so it's not that crazy since you can avoid getting grabbed by him pretty well and he can't just force grabs easily.

fair has a huge arc and the hitbox on his fist is stupid big (seriously, look at it in debug. that's HUGE!). but ganon doesn't get to move through the air that quickly, and combining that with its startup, it's not that crazy.

bair's hitbox is similar to fair's, and it has decently fast startup (and ending lag, too! you can sh-wl it!). but, ganon, so even wling it isn't that egregious.

and then, let's look at nair. two hits, first one comes out on frame 5. each deals 12%. it's not that uncommon to link both together at lower-mid percents. but, it also autocancels after the second hitbox comes active, so you can shff it and autocancel. it deals 12%, so fully fresh, that second hit is +3 on shield. PLUS. THREE. guys, this is cray. staled, it's around 0. how the hell? and it has pretty nice hitbox coverage. that just feels crazy! but it's on ganon. it's cool, man. have you seen that character? he needs something crazy like that (he kinda does, for real...).

 

[Strong Badam]

everyone sucks

no trust me, you do too

Here's to sucking. *raises glass*

 

[steelguttey]

Here's to sucking. *raises glass*

*tips dash attack*

 

[BBOY15]

So half the reason why project M should exist imo is to make all characters tournament viable, the way the game should be. For this reason, I believe that if 3.5 ends up with a B tier category at all, it isn't a complete success. Don't get me wrong, PM is still by far the most balanced smash game. But every character should have a chance at winning at the highest level of play. Obviously, we can't get the game 100% balanced because then we'd have to do stuff like give bowser massive hitboxes. But we should get it so that there are only two tier categories: S and A. That way, everyone's favorite character is a good character, yet the game would still have the charm of having certain elite characters that are the most explored.

 

[Anonistry]

So half the reason why project M should exist imo is to make all characters tournament viable, the way the game should be. For this reason, I believe that if 3.5 ends up with a B tier category at all, it isn't a complete success. Don't get me wrong, PM is still by far the most balanced smash game. But every character should have a chance at winning at the highest level of play. Obviously, we can't get the game 100% balanced because then we'd have to do stuff like give bowser massive hitboxes. But we should get it so that there are only two tier categories: S and A. That way, everyone's favorite character is a good character, yet the game would still have the charm of having certain elite characters that are the most explored.

I both agree with this in essence, but it also is reminding me of the arbitrariness of assigning alphabetic tiers to character balance... because, like, there should only be B tiers, man, S (/sarcasm)

 

[Foo]

So half the reason why project M should exist imo is to make all characters tournament viable, the way the game should be. For this reason, I believe that if 3.5 ends up with a B tier category at all, it isn't a complete success. Don't get me wrong, PM is still by far the most balanced smash game. But every character should have a chance at winning at the highest level of play. Obviously, we can't get the game 100% balanced because then we'd have to do stuff like give bowser massive hitboxes. But we should get it so that there are only two tier categories: S and A. That way, everyone's favorite character is a good character, yet the game would still have the charm of having certain elite characters that are the most explored.

This will never ever ever happen unless there is exactly one PM player. Some characters will always be at least slightly better than some others, and the people will make tier lists accordingly. All you can do is shrink the gap between S tier and F tier as much as possible. Compare the difference between F tier and metaknight in brawl to the difference between ICs and Fox.

Even if you somehow managed to get each character perfectly balanced, there would still be bias int he community for various reasons that would form tier lists. Since people generally favor aggressive play, aggressive characters would be higher on the tier list even if they were perfectly balanced.

The only way to put every character in the same 2 tiers would be to have two characters.

 

[BBOY15]

This will never ever ever happen unless there is exactly one PM player. Some characters will always be at least slightly better than some others, and the people will make tier lists accordingly. All you can do is shrink the gap between S tier and F tier as much as possible. Compare the difference between F tier and metaknight in brawl to the difference between ICs and Fox.

Even if you somehow managed to get each character perfectly balanced, there would still be bias int he community for various reasons that would form tier lists. Since people generally favor aggressive play, aggressive characters would be higher on the tier list even if they were perfectly balanced.

The only way to put every character in the same 2 tiers would be to have two characters.

I don't think the F tier exists in 3.5. Even the worst characters can be okay if used correctly. For a character to be F, it has to be almost completely useless, like pichu in Melee. Right now people seem to have 7 letter categories for Project M tiers. I think we could at least get this down to just S, A, B, and C. That's 4 intervals for how good a character is.

 

[Rizner]

I don't think the F tier exists in 3.5. Even the worst characters can be okay if used correctly. For a character to be F, it has to be almost completely useless, like pichu in Melee. Right now people seem to have 7 letter categories for Project M tiers. I think we could at least get this down to just S, A, B, and C. That's 4 intervals for how good a character is.

realistically, you could spread out letters however fit. If I think there's a gap between set 1, set 2, ... set 6 of characters, there should be tiers a-f in my list. It doesn't mean that f is necessarily unusable, just that they're 6 breakpoints lower than a.

People care too much about preconceived numbers or letters for tiers, and try to map them to other games and what it meant there. Stopit.

Like, why would you have an S tier and not just A, B, C and D?

 

[MagnesD3]

I fully believe that this game can be balanced enough to where there is only an A and B tier but it will take quite a bit to pull off.

 

[DMG]

I don't think that's possible unless you include a big pile of homogenization: most chars run fast, grab well, throw well, edgeguard well, combo well, have 1 decent projectile, etc

Alternatively, you could modify how inclusive tiers are and have them be overly broad. That would accomplish the same thing

 

[BBOY15]

I don't think that's possible unless you include a big pile of homogenization: most chars run fast, grab well, throw well, edgeguard well, combo well, have 1 decent projectile, etc

Alternatively, you could modify how inclusive tiers are and have them be overly broad. That would accomplish the same thing

If homogination was the only way to do it, then it wouldn't really be worth it. Every character needs to preserve their unique playstyle. We gotta do this slowly and carefully.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't think that's possible unless you include a big pile of homogenization: most chars run fast, grab well, throw well, edgeguard well, combo well, have 1 decent projectile, etc

Alternatively, you could modify how inclusive tiers are and have them be overly broad. That would accomplish the same thing

Id argue that usf4 got very close to something like this, As are basically characters that are viable but dont necessarily require a secondary and Bs are characters that are viable but greatly benefit from a secondary. Its hard but not impossible and it doesnt have to become stale you just have to design from the correct perspective and goals so you steer the direction of balance in the way you desire.

 

[DMG]

Id argue that usf4 got very close to something like this, As are basically characters that are viable but dont necessarily require a secondary and Bs are characters that are viable but greatly benefit from a secondary. Its hard but not impossible and it doesnt have to become stale you just have to design from the correct perspective and goals so you steer the direction of balance in the way you desire.

Street Fighter is usually way more limited in mobility and freedom than Smash: comparing the ease of balancing the two I think is highly unfair. When you modify a throw, you have to factor in how that impacts opponents of varying weights and floatiness. When you change how a character edgeguards, you have a ton of different recovery choices to balance that against. The list of variables and concerns based on individual character traits (as the whole cast interacts with them and with stages), technically should be a couple magnitudes of scale greater for Smash.

 

[Chevy]

Start baiting Up-B OoS on defense, guys. It starts on frame 1, but doesn't hit until frame 8. Not invincible at all. Or just wait. You can reasonably react to his defensive options if you push him into shield and he struggles to get down.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by it doesn't hit until frame 8? I just tested GnW up-B and it has a hitbox the first frame.

 

[Foo]

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by it doesn't hit until frame 8? I just tested GnW up-B and it has a hitbox the first frame.

Oh yeah I was going to reply to that post a while ago but forgot. I am like 99.9% sure that G@W up-b hit on frame 1, but he doesn't actually start moving until frame 8. I mean, every move in the entire game STARTS on frame one.