Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

FYI peeps need to get on board the Toon Link hype train.

Picked him up the other day and his attacks flow into each other in these crazy strings that always seem to end with them begging to be Up-B'd or Down-Air'd. Seems to cover my weaker match-ups pretty well, too.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yay double post.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I've actually jumped on the Toon Link hype train. Watching Aero take Winners Semis against Fly Amanita at this Sunday's SSS blew my mind. I feel like Toon Link is as good as Link, the tradeoff being mobility for kill power, although bomb > dair setups work quite nicely for Toon Link (and Link)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I've actually jumped on the Toon Link hype train. Watching Aero take Winners Semis against Fly Amanita at this Sunday's SSS blew my mind. I feel like Toon Link is as good as Link, the tradeoff being mobility for kill power, although bomb > dair setups work quite nicely for Toon Link (and Link)

Can I get a link if it's up somewhere?

Spoiler

Get it

Spoiler

do you get it

 

[Kaeldiar]

Does every character really need something that seems broken to be a good character? Most of the things that seem broken have easy answers that just arent intuitive (what I referred to as gimmicks). Olimar has a decent projectile, powerful moves, a really good recovery,and a great combo game. What more do you need? Just because a character doesnt have a shine or a boomerang doesnt make them unviable or bad

 

[woundedust]

Pink fresh is i think the most solid lucas player. Lucas gets so much from getting one hit in. Anything he does can zero to death, and he has every kill move in the book

 

[Oracle]

Usually it's not one aspect that is amazing, but a handful that work together on top of a generally solid design. Perfect example would be Falco:

Alone, he would be "solid". Add in just his Dair, he's Solid+. Just his shine, Solid+, etc. But, his Shine combined with Dair combined with Lasers that allow him to control neutral in order to space those other moves make him "Amazing".

Or even Link: he has a sword already, and is relatively fast enough to be "Solid". Add dynamic projectiles, a Scorpion-like GET OVER HERE grab, and an Up B that can ruin certain recoveries by itself on top of all that? Amazing.

Characters like Olimar while still viable / good, are merely solid as they have yet to either have something / find something that makes them stand out like a good chunk of the cast has so far, like Lucas with his versatile combo game -> super finishers, or Mario with his wall of fire + amazing grab<->combo game + gimping power.

Guess where I'm going with this is that the characters you generally see as the high/top tier in many of these lists are there because they are both solid + have stand out features to back that up, as opposed to the others who are either more polarizing in their features (meaning their features have huge drawbacks against other characters, and with such a balanced cast having bad MUs has got to make you worse) or just simply have nothing "outstanding" going for them that other characters don't do better.

You just assigned aribtary values to random good characters' moves. I mean are you seriously trying to argue that link's grab makes him amazing? If we want to talk good moves, olimar's flowered purple upsmash is safe on block, white grab+pummel-dthrow- any pikmin fair does about 40%, and blue and purple grabs can go around spotdodging. And thats not even considering some of the crazy combos that could exist like dthrow-> white pikmin toss to regrab for massive damagee or purple upthrow with a white pikmin latched for an early kill of the top alla snake. Theres so much potential that this character has that you guys are missing because he doesnt have some stupid gimmick that looks broken. I've said it before: Complaining about characters like olimar based on no evidence is how we got 2.6 ivysaur

@ Cassio his pikmin have really good priority now

 

[Cassio]

As long as he doesnt have that weird "clash with pikmin then attack continues to hit olimar" thing then he might be pretty good. Actually Id say thats a pretty significant buff people should think about in their analysis of him because it was a big weakness for him before. Im kind of torn about that though bc I thought it was a neat trait, but it sounds like he might need the change for balancing purposes, P:M was going to be unkind to him regardless of changes.

 

[Hylian]

calling all @ Hylian
This man is not on the Lucas hype train, and he might be right. I personally think he's super good, but his learning curve is crazy steep. I don't think he beats fox or falco (maybe even mk) just because PK Freeze is not flexible enough to handle a lot of people's movement.

I don't even both arguing it anymore as seemingly no one agrees with me. The only people I've really gotten to agree with me are people I've played against so *shrugs*. Doesn't really matter either way, I was on the lucas bandwagon long before it took off and hopped off down the road less taken awhile ago. Don't really feel the need to convince anyone either I think results will speak for themselves in time and if I'm wrong then I'll figure it out for myself and not on the faith of others exploring his "untapped" potential. My thoughts come from playing and testing the character a ton not from theory-crafting(not that I have a problem with it).

I do think lucas is one of the most fun characters in the game to play though .

Or even Link: he has a sword already, and is relatively fast enough to be "Solid"

Link is quite good, but it's certainly not because of his speed. Is "relatively fast enough" relative to the slowest character in the game? Because looking at others he's certainly lacking in the speed/mobility department considering he has the 4th slowest run/dash speed and the 2nd shortest wavedash with a 6 frame jumpsquat and 6 frame jab.

 

[Beorn]

Can I get a link if it's up somewhere?

Spoiler

Get it

Spoiler

do you get it

[/spoier]

Spoiler

Yes please link it

 

[9bit]

Can I get a link if it's up somewhere?

Yes please link it

It's in IEBattlegrounds' Twitch archives; I don't think it's been uploaded to YouTube yet

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thanks, 9Bit.

 

[JOE!]

You just assigned aribtary values to random good characters' moves. I mean are you seriously trying to argue that link's grab makes him amazing?

By itself no, it's not. But on Link it allows him to do some neat stuff combined with his superb mid-range spacing, as well as grant him a tether. Looking at moves in a vacuum is one thing, but looking at stuff in context of the whole character is another.

It is rarely ever just 1 thing that makes a character amazing, but a combination of traits.

If we want to talk good moves, olimar's flowered purple upsmash is safe on block, white grab+pummel-dthrow- any pikmin fair does about 40%, and blue and purple grabs can go around spotdodging. And thats not even considering some of the crazy combos that could exist like dthrow-> white pikmin toss to regrab for massive damagee or purple upthrow with a white pikmin latched for an early kill of the top alla snake. Theres so much potential that this character has that you guys are missing because he doesnt have some stupid gimmick that looks broken. I've said it before: Complaining about characters like olimar based on no evidence is how we got 2.6 ivysaur

All well and good, but the thing that holds that back is that Olimar wont always have a Purple / Blue / White on hand. Sure, it is totally awesome when you get a white to maturity and it deals 40% or so damage with a good smack. Within the 15 seconds or so it took you to grow that, other characters could have done double that easily in a combo. Granted Olimar can combo as well without needing these circumstances, it's just that if he ends up getting a sub optimal draw or if he loses pikmin, he has to lose momentum in a match in order to re-pluck, which puts a damper on things overall.

Link is quite good, but it's certainly not because of his speed. Is "relatively fast enough" relative to the slowest character in the game? Because looking at others he's certainly lacking in the speed/mobility department considering he has the 4th slowest run/dash speed and the 2nd shortest wavedash with a 6 frame jumpsquat and 6 frame jab.

Mobility isn't the only determination of speed. For his range I think he is certainly fast when tossing out moves paired with his array of projectiles to make "closing distance" less of a handicap.

I think this is always a miscommunication thing... Like, if there was a character who had all their moves come out at like frame 6 at the LATEST, but had by far the worst run / jump / etc in the game, would it be the slowest or relatively fast given it can toss out moves lightning quick?

 

[Hylian]

Mobility isn't the only determination of speed. For his range I think he is certainly fast when tossing out moves paired with his array of projectiles to make "closing distance" less of a handicap.

I think this is always a miscommunication thing... Like, if there was a character who had all their moves come out at like frame 6 at the LATEST, but had by far the worst run / jump / etc in the game, would it be the slowest or relatively fast given it can toss out moves lightning quick?

His fastest move is Dsmash at 5 frames. He has one of the slowest jabs in the game, and none of his moves really stand out as having a quick start-up time. He's your example except the 6 frames being his fastest safe option not his slowest. He's relatively slow in almost every way to the rest of the cast including how fast his moves come out.

For your example, a character with "by far" the slowest run/dash/jump would still be incredibly slow even with fast start-up on moves. Movement is one of if not the most important aspect of the game, characters that are slow often require outstanding traits to compete with characters with good mobility options.

 

[JOE!]

Gotcha. And then again, Link doesn't exactly need movement speed with 3 different projectiles to cover space with, no?

 

[Hylian]

Gotcha. And then again, Link doesn't exactly need movement speed with 3 different projectiles to cover space with, no?

Yeah, he has great options to make up for his lack for speed for sure.

 

[Oracle]

If you manage your pikmin well you can almost always get whatever you need. Pluck is not really that hard to pull off, its actually incredibly fast and easy to do in neutral, which you would know if you actually played the character more than once. That level of ignorance is exactly why I try not to get into discussions like this; it always ends up with ppl making arguments based on misinformation or not knowing some key piece of evidence, like how you if you properly use the iasa frames you can do something almost instantly after plucking a pikmin. I mean damn, the most common argument against olimar being good is his slow pikmin pluck, which is just completely not true. Explore the character before you make a statement like that!

Saying a character is bad ALWAYS should have the implication that given what YOU KNOW about the character, he SEEMS bad, not just assuming a character is garbage and start suggesting what he 'needs' to be viable, which i see on like 40% of the posts in this thread and 100% of the posts about olimar not from dmg or myself. I probably understand more about pm lucas than any other player in the world and theres STILL plenty of junk I learn from watching other players or exploring different options. Making knee jerk reactions and posts about characters needing things makes you look stupid, and more importantly, makes our community look stupid, and I'm tired of it. I feel like I make this same ****ing rant every couple months. If you want this game to get taken more seriously, then shut the hell up about buffs and nerfs unless you're in the back room.

If anyone still thinks pm olimar is unviable i'll mm you and while you talk about why he needs another pikmin i'll be getting to 4 purples so i can run that Monique train on yo ass

For the record, this isn't really directed at Joe, he just did exactly what I hate seeing. If you've posted in this thread, chances are what I said applies to you as well

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

K then.

 

[Wrestlemania]

His fastest move is Dsmash at 5 frames.

How fast does his Nair come out? I thought it was pretty fast but maybe it just has really good priority or something?

 

[GP&B]

Want to say 6 or 7. It does have a lot of coverage and the hitbox retains its infamous Melee clumsiness of lasting during the entire animation.

 

[DMG]

If you also factor in the time it takes to jump, it's not that fast

 

[GP&B]

That also, so really it's gonna be 6 at a minimum (assuming you even put it out as soon as you leave the ground).

 

[Terotrous]

what to most characters have that's amazing? Lucario's OHC and Ike's QD come with significant deficiencies elsewhere because they were designed and balanced around those traits. A lot of characters are solid but with a central aspect to their gameplay.

Mario's Fireball
Link's Boomerang
Peach's Float
Donkey Kong's Fthrow
Fox's Shine and Uair
Marth's Tippers
Diddy Kong's Bananas
Falco's Shine and Dair
Lucas's USmash
Ivysaur's Solarbeam
Mewtwo's Tail (Bair, Ftilt, Utilt, etc)
ROB's Gyro and Air Dash



Some slightly moreso than others but you get the idea. Note that all of these characters are pretty solid even outside of these specific moves (this is why I didn't list Rest and the Knee, as Jiggs and Falcon are otherwise somewhat one-dimensional characters who have problem matchups due to their lack of flexibility)

If you manage your pikmin well you can almost always get whatever you need. Pluck is not really that hard to pull off, its actually incredibly fast and easy to do in neutral, which you would know if you actually played the character more than once.

I did go through a bunch of matches and I could usually get Plucks out when I needed them, but against characters who are on you constantly like Fox, Lucas, Sonic, etc, I don't see any real strategy for him other than mash out that USmash (which is honestly pretty much what the Olimar player was doing in the video that was posted a few pages back). Maybe those MUs are just awful, but Fox and Lucas are both really common so that's not a good place to have bad MUs.

If you do have some good anti fast-guys strats feel free to contribute them because honestly it seems like a big problem for him.

 

[CyberZixx]

I'm sorry, but you mention Falco's downthrow there but not lasers the best projectile in the game no contest?

 

[Oracle]

pivot grab? olimars pivot grab is nearly unrivaled and its basically his entire character in brawl. upsmash is also good. it helps that olimar murders those characters off of a grab

 

[JOE!]

@ Oracle how exactly can you guarantee to get the Pikmin you want if it is randomized based on the stage and even position on the stage? (Assuming that is still a thing). It just seems a bit too randomized whenever you pluck, and havign to either toss away pikmin or have them be killed to get new ones seems inherently risky if you get smacked trying to change up your squad.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm sorry, but you mention Falco's downthrow there but not lasers the best projectile in the game no contest?

That was a typo, it was obviously Dair, and I fixed a moment later. Lasers too though. Falco's got so much good stuff that it's hard to choose. Ditto Lucas. I honestly think you can make a case for Fireball and Boomerang as well where best projectile is concerned, though.

pivot grab? olimars pivot grab is nearly unrivaled and its basically his entire character in brawl. upsmash is also good. it helps that olimar murders those characters off of a grab

Yeah Olimar's grab game is definitely good, though the recovery is just asking for a huge combo from those guys if you ever miss. I'll attempt more pivot grab in that matchup tomorrow and get back to you.

 

[SpiderMad]

Want to say 6 or 7. It does have a lot of coverage and the hitbox retains its infamous Melee clumsiness of lasting during the entire animation.

I want to say even like 4/5. It's one of the factors that makes me believe Ike is more combo-fodder than him.

Yeah it's frame 4, http://smashboards.com/threads/link-hitboxes-and-frame-data.306010/ Peach/Luigi is 3

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Mario's Fireball
Link's Boomerang
Peach's Float
Donkey Kong's Fthrow
Fox's Shine and Uair
Marth's Tippers
Diddy Kong's Bananas
Falco's Shine and Dair
Lucas's USmash
Ivysaur's Solarbeam
Mewtwo's Tail (Bair, Ftilt, Utilt, etc)
ROB's Gyro and Air Dash



Some slightly moreso than others but you get the idea. Note that all of these characters are pretty solid even outside of these specific moves (this is why I didn't list Rest and the Knee, as Jiggs and Falcon are otherwise somewhat one-dimensional characters who have problem matchups due to their lack of flexibility)


I did go through a bunch of matches and I could usually get Plucks out when I needed them, but against characters who are on you constantly like Fox, Lucas, Sonic, etc, I don't see any real strategy for him other than mash out that USmash (which is honestly pretty much what the Olimar player was doing in the video that was posted a few pages back). Maybe those MUs are just awful, but Fox and Lucas are both really common so that's not a good place to have bad MUs.

If you do have some good anti fast-guys strats feel free to contribute them because honestly it seems like a big problem for him.

First thing is first, I disagree with a lot of things that you list. Ivy's Solarbeam isn't what puts him over the top. Ivy is also solid and now, he doesn't really have anything that would be considered overly spectacular. Diddy is a kind of subpar character without his bananas. Marth would be terrible if he didn't have a sweetspot on his sword, and that is what his tipper functions as. ROB's gyro is a fine projectile, but it isn't that good. His airdash is a mobility option and he would be kind of bad without it etc.


Also, the more I read Oracle's posts, the more I agree with him.

 

[Terotrous]

First thing is first, I disagree with a lot of things that you list. Ivy's Solarbeam isn't what puts him over the top. Ivy is also solid and now, he doesn't really have anything that would be considered overly spectacular. Diddy is a kind of subpar character without his bananas. Marth would be terrible if he didn't have a sweetspot on his sword, and that is what his tipper functions as. ROB's gyro is a fine projectile, but it isn't that good. His airdash is a mobility option and he would be kind of bad without it etc.

I disagree about Ivy for sure. Yes, everything about Ivy is pretty good. Leaf and Seedbomb are great stage control. Bair is a great poke. Nair is great shield pressure. Ivy also has great combos. That's the foundation of a solid character. But then, every couple stocks, Ivy gets to kill you at like 60% because Solarbeam is a thing. It's just that little extra bit that pushes Ivy over the top. Olimar doesn't really have something like that.

As for ROB, Gyro is basically the king of stage control. You should see how much mileage JCaesar gets out of it, it's bananas (there's loads of footage of his ROB at VGBootcamp). Airdashes also make his aerials do more damage, which is pretty insane considering his aerials are already good.

You may have a point about Marth, but I still think Tipper FSmash is a gamechanger simply due to its range and power.

 

[Hylian]

Want to say 6 or 7. It does have a lot of coverage and the hitbox retains its infamous Melee clumsiness of lasting during the entire animation.

Comes out frame 4, not taking into account actually getting into the air to use it.

The hitbox length was shortened in PM from melee to match the animation rather than staying out while his leg is retracting like it did in melee actually.

 

[GP&B]

Oh okay, so they did actually put in Animation End then.

It's not like the hitbox lasting that long was crucially beneficial anyways.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I disagree about Ivy for sure. Yes, everything about Ivy is pretty good. Leaf and Seedbomb are great stage control. Bair is a great poke. Nair is great shield pressure. Ivy also has great combos. That's the foundation of a solid character. But then, every couple stocks, Ivy gets to kill you at like 60% because Solarbeam is a thing. It's just that little extra bit that pushes Ivy over the top. Olimar doesn't really have something like that.

As for ROB, Gyro is basically the king of stage control. You should see how much mileage JCaesar gets out of it, it's bananas (there's loads of footage of his ROB at VGBootcamp). Airdashes also make his aerials do more damage, which is pretty insane considering his aerials are already good.

You may have a point about Marth, but I still think Tipper FSmash is a gamechanger simply due to its range and power.

Think about it this way though. How good would ROB be if he didn't have his Airdash? His air mobility would be terrible, and he wouldn't be able to combo strings of moves like he can now. You were saying things about characters which puts them over the top. Airdash doesn't make ROB over the top, it makes him viable.

 

[Oracle]

You dont guarantee anything, but with more plucks you can drastically increase your odds of getting what you want. You get roughly 1 in 10 chance of a purple, so statistically youll get a purple every 10 pulls. Odds are better if you need a primary color, and even better if you know what stages yield more of which. And its not like olimar is useless without 4 purples; he just gets better and better the more pikmin he pulls.

 

[Hashtag]

Just for the record, I don't like fighting olimar and I believe he's better than most people think.

As a matter of fact, I think most characters in this game are better than most people think. It's just characters right now don't have accurate representation in different cities/states/regions and everyone's view points are skewed because people try to classify and categorize in theory without any real practice and limited practical application.

Why?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

As long as he doesnt have that weird "clash with pikmin then attack continues to hit olimar" thing then he might be pretty good. Actually Id say thats a pretty significant buff people should think about in their analysis of him because it was a big weakness for him before. Im kind of torn about that though bc I thought it was a neat trait, but it sounds like he might need the change for balancing purposes, P:M was going to be unkind to him regardless of changes.

He still has that. Your picmin still fly a million miles off screen when that happens to.

 

[woundedust]

Comes out frame 4, not taking into account actually getting into the air to use it.

The hitbox length was shortened in PM from melee to match the animation rather than staying out while his leg is retracting like it did in melee actually.

off note, think we could get a character main slot for PM?



as for now, olimar sits where he does. i think he is lacking tools that will keep hi from being consistent in tournament placings. either that, or someone has not put the large amounts of time needed to master him

 

[Nausicaa]

How are most characters in the game better than most people think, if most people think every character is amazingly good? Like... Fox-Tier good?
2nd note, this is a speculation thread about the 'goodness' of characters, and naturally the only thing of value from any discussion around that is to help people get clearer context so they can have a view-point leaning more and more towards being un-skewed and develop both themselves and others.
Why? What else are you gonna do without 'representation' of any accuracy even if you collected everyone from all regions? Learn to use your head? Nawwww *sarcasm


I might enjoy watching Pink Fresh or whatever. To-date, I've never enjoyed the direction any other player has taken Lucas. The same could be said about Wolf/ZSS/Lucario/quite a few others up until the last 5 months or so, even still I don't like the look and direction of a lot of stuff.
Edit: That doesn't mean I think things are bad/etc, just that everyone is still developing context to develop FROM, and almost the entire meta-game of today will be left behind as things go forward. Slowly, the content that's of value, is creeping to the surface of play.

I feel like I make this same ****ing rant every couple months. If you want this game to get taken more seriously, then shut the hell up about buffs and nerfs unless you're in the back room.

There's a good crew who do.
It's working though, the spam of that silliness is a LOT less than it used to be.

 

[woundedust]

Ive said since 3.0 was released that every character in this game was able to combat spacie silliness. I dont feel alot of the melee best are top tier anymore, that alot of the new buffs characters have recieved are able to combat sheik/fox/falco/marth. We have yet to get deep enough into the meta to find those traits

 

[The_NZA]

You just assigned aribtary values to random good characters' moves. I mean are you seriously trying to argue that link's grab makes him amazing? If we want to talk good moves, olimar's flowered purple upsmash is safe on block, white grab+pummel-dthrow- any pikmin fair does about 40%, and blue and purple grabs can go around spotdodging. And thats not even considering some of the crazy combos that could exist like dthrow-> white pikmin toss to regrab for massive damagee or purple upthrow with a white pikmin latched for an early kill of the top alla snake. Theres so much potential that this character has that you guys are missing because he doesnt have some stupid gimmick that looks broken. I've said it before: Complaining about characters like olimar based on no evidence is how we got 2.6 ivysaur

@ Cassio his pikmin have really good priority now

People arguing that olimar is bad are full of ****. People arguing that he's boring are onto something.