Tier List Speculation

[Kink-Link5]

My most recent attempt at a full tier list. I'm actually really happy with this one, it feels a lot more accurate than all of my past tier lists.

As always, Marth and Mario are too high and ZSS is far, far too low.

 

[Oro?!]

Nah, people can leave her there. It makes for a better surprised face.

 

[jtm94]

King Dedede really should have his title back.
It's the one change they made from Brawl that was bad.

Mario is also SOOOOO GOOOODDDD. You can combo any move into any move. He is the epitome of combo machine. And he can do it on ANYONE. Some characters are limited to a certain "set" of combos, but you can watch a Mario go ape crazy with this 80% combo that was 100% in hitstun and only affected by DI. It isn't like these are off reads, he can just follow people through the air and GO IN.

Is Mario the best in the game currently? Doubt it, but by George he could be in 20XX.

Fox/Falco best because over 12 years of meta developing is quite some time. Slowly as all of this crazy fresh tech is adapted Squirtle could end up being top tier. I hear a move that forces trip/tech chases, hits through platforms, is disjointed, and semi-spikes could be pretty good if used properly.

 

[DrinkingFood]

a move that forces tech chases, hits through platforms, is disjointed, and semi-spikes could be pretty good if used properly.

So it's like fox's shine is on light characters, but somewhat slower and no JC option, but really disjointed

 

[DMG]

D3 sucks unless top tier player uses him.

Mario is pretty good but not super dominant in his MU's. I will say though, the Fireball cooldown buff was not healthy. Mario metaphorically has his hands in all the "cookie jars" so to speak: he should probably be a bit more lacking somewhere. Got a dude with a solid recovery, solid projectile, top 3 throw game, solid kill power in air and on ground, like make him suck somewhere.

I don't think Mario is super top tier, but in comparison to other characters he's probably been buffed further than he should have been. Like a good example would be Pika and Mario in Melee, compared to the transition to PM. It's such a stark difference.

Squirtle is ok. Bubblebeam would be good, but it's easy to tech out of most BB setups. You can also sometimes be punished/not gain much from it if you use it in the air onstage, and they happen to jump into it. Usually knocks people away without flooring them, so you don't really gain anything from it. It covers a good angle, but not that useful imo

 

[DrinkingFood]

You can also sometimes be punished/not gain much from it if you use it in the air onstage, and they happen to jump into it. Usually knocks people away without flooring them, so you don't really gain anything from it.

right, I forgot about that
so shine still comes out ahead by miles
what a ****in' suuurprise, eh

 

[Deleted member]

yeah mario is the tits in this game. saying that mario is over-rated is like "your join date is showing again".

 

[DMG]

He is though. People are surprised and overly impressed about things like OMG DTHROW CG'S! Did these people not see Mario or Doc in Melee? Everyone talks about him like it's Jesus buttering their toast

"Such Dair"
"Much Recover"
"Many Combo"

 

[Vashimus]

Mario gets revenge killed too easily, it's hard for him to pull off sweeps consistently when the things that check him are so common. Fire is also not that great of a type defensively, so he has trouble switching in too.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

View attachment 8566
I know everyone hates the lettering system because it seems to convey a message that the D and F tiers are bad, but it doesnt mean that. I play Olimar and think he is pretty good, just probably bad MU's, and I've been bodied by several of the 'low tier' characters on this list several times. They just have bad MU's, havent been metadeveloped much, or just arent as viable as higher 'tier' characters.
Anyway this is the tier list I have so far from tournament results and community opinion.

This one looks funky. I don't get how Toon Link is that far down below Link. TL is just as good, possibly better. Also, Jiggs, who was pretty much third of fourth in Melee is at the bottom? She's just like her Melee version. I think more time and voting needs to go into this. Patience.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

7% every fireball ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[DMG]

Thanks Vash

 

[PhantasyStar]

Peach needs to be higher IMO.

 

[Oracle]

The only buff squirtle needs is for his dkwn b to make the bubblebeam noise from rby. That junk was brutal sounding

 

[Oro?!]

Squirtle is real good. People are just bad with him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Mario gets revenge killed too easily, it's hard for him to pull off sweeps consistently when the things that check him are so common. Fire is also not that great of a type defensively, so he has trouble switching in too.

>Resists Jigglypuff's main STAB
>Resits 6/18 types including half of Bliz-Jolt
>Bad defensively

 

[ss118]

I've played too much pokemon to know where this conversation is going >_>

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Peach needs to be higher IMO.

Peach is there because there has not been much tournament presence with her as of yet, which has hurt her placement. The general consensus on Peach placement is low teens, however her tournament play is much worse, it is put into a numbering system that I think should work pretty well. There are going to be characters that are placed in 'weird' spots, but they just need time in tournament play to show themselves more.

This one looks funky. I don't get how Toon Link is that far down below Link. TL is just as good, possibly better. Also, Jiggs, who was pretty much third of fourth in Melee is at the bottom? She's just like her Melee version. I think more time and voting needs to go into this. Patience.

People actually didn't rank jiggs that much higher, only a few spots and TL was ranked right about there. They do about that placement in tournaments as well. My guess is that people dont play them yet, cause there was a really good TL at BEAST 4 so he is obviously viable. His recovery is just difficult as it depends on bomb jumping. I think Jiggs is about the same as melee but my guess is that other characters are now better than she is, in addition to a lack of people playing her.


I agree with you guys though that there are some characters that could be moved up and down, however the thing is other people probably think the other characters need to move up or done even more so which is why they are at where there at for the most part. Over the past month though the characters have stayed very close to the tiers they are in, so those are probably pretty accurate to opinions.

 

[Hashtag]

I think quite a number of characters will be better once they get a dedicated player base. Problem is most people want established characters, which isn't really a bad thing for a person. It garnishes more immediate results in brackets. The entire casts meta needs to evolve more.

 

[Nguz95]

Game & Watch. Keep on the lookout. The flat man is deadly.

 

[Deleted member]

You think Mario is overrated and isn't as good as people think he is, yet you also think he was over-buffed? What?

 

[Zwarm]

Squirtle is real good. People are just bad with him.

That's what I've been saying all along!

 

[Time2Play]

You think Mario is overrated and isn't as good as people think he is, yet you also think he was over-buffed? What?

It's not as paradox as it sounds.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

"People think Mario:Fox is Hulk:Loki when in fact it's closer to Iron Man:Thor. He still too good though."

^ I'm guessing DMG meant something like that

 

[Rᴏb]

I will say though, the Fireball cooldown buff was not healthy.

I guarantee this is gonna be reverted. It's also the only nerf that I would be okay with Mario getting.
Such a great character, I definitely don't think he is overrated...

 

[woundedust]

D3 sucks unless top tier player uses him.

Mario is pretty good but not super dominant in his MU's. I will say though, the Fireball cooldown buff was not healthy. Mario metaphorically has his hands in all the "cookie jars" so to speak: he should probably be a bit more lacking somewhere. Got a dude with a solid recovery, solid projectile, top 3 throw game, solid kill power in air and on ground, like make him suck somewhere.

I don't think Mario is super top tier, but in comparison to other characters he's probably been buffed further than he should have been. Like a good example would be Pika and Mario in Melee, compared to the transition to PM. It's such a stark difference.

Squirtle is ok. Bubblebeam would be good, but it's easy to tech out of most BB setups. You can also sometimes be punished/not gain much from it if you use it in the air onstage, and they happen to jump into it. Usually knocks people away without flooring them, so you don't really gain anything from it. It covers a good angle, but not that useful imo

I think mario is supposed to be the best all around character. Not the strongest, but solod in every area

 

[MrBigstuff]

>Resists Jigglypuff's main STAB
>Resits 6/18 types including half of Bliz-Jolt
>Bad defensively

Weak to rocks, scald, and earthquake.
Bad defensive typing

 

[BigglesWorth]

That's what I've been saying all along!

Squirtles are generally impatient (especially with side b) and put themselves in a lot of bad spots. People haven't really figured how to consistently weave in and out with him while controlling space. I'd say he is good; not top tier but good. If he had another option out of shell then maybe he would be up there.

 

[firebolt1400]

Ok, so I've read a lot of the thread and I understand a lot about Project M, I think... SO, here's my idea. Please give me valid criticism so I can edit it and make it better. :D

Unbelievable: (In Order)
Top:
High:
Good:
OK:

 

[Soft Serve]

There are a lot of good squirtles out there, they are just too busy playing the game to theory craft. Theorizing only gets you so far, knowing what options cover which scenarios helps up to the point where you don't actually have enough experience to recognize those scenarios in time to abuse your options.

I'm starting to think that tierlists at this point in the metagame is pointless, we are better off just exploring our characters and developing opinions on specific matchups, ultimately leading to a mu chart once the scene starts to settle down. I honestly believe that almost every character has the tools to compete. I also don't think that current showings and results truly represent some characters abilities. I would chalk a lot of wins from new characters up to matchup inexperiences, and a lot of losses due to the characters being still fully explored and optimized. We should all just hit the lab and play for like 6 months, emerge from our time-chambers with newfound matchup insights, and then construct a roughly accurate matchup chart, then create a tier-list from that, weighting the matchups against more popular characters as being more important.


also, Smashboards ranking statistics are really interesting to watch as things get submitted: http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
Sonic, bowser and squirtle get top 8 more often than characters like Diddy, Link, and wario, and I'm pretty cetain that there are more good link players out there than good sonic and squirtle players combined.

 

[GP&B]

Ok, so I've read a lot of the thread and I understand a lot about Project M, I think... SO, here's my idea. Please give me valid criticism so I can edit it and make it better. :D

Unbelievable: (In Order)
Top:
High:
Good:
OK:

OK:

 

[Nguz95]

There are a lot of good squirtles out there, they are just too busy playing the game to theory craft. Theorizing only gets you so far, knowing what options cover which scenarios helps up to the point where you don't actually have enough experience to recognize those scenarios in time to abuse your options.

I'm starting to think that tierlists at this point in the metagame is pointless, we are better off just exploring our characters and developing opinions on specific matchups, ultimately leading to a mu chart once the scene starts to settle down. I honestly believe that almost every character has the tools to compete. I also don't think that current showings and results truly represent some characters abilities. I would chalk a lot of wins from new characters up to matchup inexperiences, and a lot of losses due to the characters being still fully explored and optimized. We should all just hit the lab and play for like 6 months, emerge from our time-chambers with newfound matchup insights, and then construct a roughly accurate matchup chart, then create a tier-list from that, weighting the matchups against more popular characters as being more important.


also, Smashboards ranking statistics are really interesting to watch as things get submitted: http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
Sonic, bowser and squirtle get top 8 more often than characters like Diddy, Link, and wario, and I'm pretty cetain that there are more good link players out there than good sonic and squirtle players combined.

I am beginning to agree with this more and more. I've been through a spate of playing characters considered to be poor, and as I continue to play them, I have begun to realize that basing my confidence on a character's perceived "potential" has been holding me back.

Those ranking statistics are fascinating. Who are those Marth players? Why isn't anyone playing Diddy? Why the heck are people playing Ganondorf? It's really interesting, and I'd love to see a geographical version of this list, as I think it would reveal a lot about certain regions.

 

[jtm94]

Can I also say that Squirtle's dash-dance is terribad?

It's like Sheik's... but twice as fast and goes nowhere. And dat techroll... goes half the length of a battlefield platform....

 

[Plum]

I'm starting to think that tierlists at this point in the metagame is pointless, we are better off just exploring our characters and developing opinions on specific matchups, ultimately leading to a mu chart once the scene starts to settle down. I honestly believe that almost every character has the tools to compete. I also don't think that current showings and results truly represent some characters abilities. I would chalk a lot of wins from new characters up to matchup inexperiences, and a lot of losses due to the characters being still fully explored and optimized. We should all just hit the lab and play for like 6 months, emerge from our time-chambers with newfound matchup insights, and then construct a roughly accurate matchup chart, then create a tier-list from that, weighting the matchups against more popular characters as being more important.

a tier list reflects the metagame that surrounds it at the time of creation
so right now some characters may be underdeveloped
and the tier list would reflect that
if it's true that they are better then we think currently, future lists would reflect our greater understanding

If you go back in time to 2008 Brawl, where they don't even have characters like Ice Climbers, Olimar and Diddy in the top 10 let alone characters like G&W and DDD being considered top 5, it's not right to just say they were wrong. Rather, you accept that it was right at the time of the 2008 metagame, but that the metagame has since evolved to a point where it may no longer be true.

quoting myself for truth

 

[Nausicaa]

The shorter DD is actually quite beneficial in a lot of ways.

Squirtle is fine as he is, he just has odd polarization.

Doodoodooze already has a legitimate title, it's Kingvan.

Edit: ^ Above comment.
I don't play Brawl, but did, and won the first online tournament with more than 100 people entering.
At the time, I put Diddy, Pika, and Oli in the top 4 with MK
The Melee Tier List worked that same way, but for different reasons, but that's ancient history.

Get@mypredictionage.

 

[DMG]

You think Mario is overrated and isn't as good as people think he is, yet you also think he was over-buffed? What?

Yes.

Say that most people put him in the top 3 or top 5 of the cast. I think that's wrong, and would put him in the top 8 or top 10. On the same token, relative to other characters around him in Melee, he got a lot of buffs/additional value that they usually did not. Take Pikachu and Ganon; not that it would be easy to buff either one correctly but they could have gotten more love instead of martyo

Slightly overrated and overbuffed character.

 

[B.W.]

Yesssss keep putting T.Link and Olimar at the bottom of lists. Its more fun that way.

 

[Phyvo]

also, Smashboards ranking statistics are really interesting to watch as things get submitted: http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams
Sonic, bowser and squirtle get top 8 more often than characters like Diddy, Link, and wario, and I'm pretty cetain that there are more good link players out there than good sonic and squirtle players combined.

I don't know, it's really hard to tell what the significance of these rankings are. For one we actually don't know what characters are being played the most in competitions. We can get a *feeling* for that based on our own local communities but without looking at a cohesive set of tournament records (including pool rounds) you simply cannot be sure. Human memory is, quite simply, prone to bias. Secondly, all that data is lumped together regardless of the tournament's competitiveness. Which are the regional tournaments? Local tournaments? Apex? Did they have 50 players? 500? There's no way to tell and so the data set is most likely biased towards the more common smaller tournaments. Tier lists reflect the meta-game but so does this data: characters can be unpopular simply because their matchup is bad vs a really popular character and that will affect what people choose to play.

The Smash community is obviously more limited data-wise here than a company but I think putting your skeptical face on when you're looking at the data you have is still really important. Those rankings are interesting but I don't think they tell us nearly enough to say that Marth is sleeper S tier or anything tier at all... after all, maybe his sword reach is generally good vs the lower skilled players that would be more common in local tournaments than at APEX.

 

[Deleted member]

Say that most people put him in the top 3 or top 5 of the cast. I think that's wrong, and would put him in the top 8 or top 10. On the same token, relative to other characters around him in Melee, he got a lot of buffs/additional value that they usually did not. Take Pikachu and Ganon; not that it would be easy to buff either one correctly but they could have gotten more love instead of martyo

Your conclusion that he was over-buffed still seems flawed. You putting him in 8-10th place on your tier list implies that you believe he's a solid, strong character, but he's not one of the best and certainly isn't overpowered. If that's the case, why in the world would you think that his buffs were too much? Why should PM Mario be made any worse than he currently is when he isn't even in your top tier?

If anything, your argument supports the idea that Pikachu and Ganondorf weren't buffed enough and should instead get the same amount of love that Mario received so that they too can become solid characters worthy of being in 8th place.

 

[Nguz95]

Low-mid tier in Melee to top 10 (out of 41 this time) in PM. That's a pretty big jump. Being top 10 in a cast of that many characters is pretty impressive.