GunBlaze
Smash Lord
ZSS's Nair is unclankable as of 3.0. Meta Knight's nigh-trascendency has not been fixed due to coding issues AFAIK
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Oracle
Smash Master
Mks dash attack and getup attack can still clank aerials iirc
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
[collapse=Bunni's Project M 3.02 Tier List ver. 0.5]
A Class
Top Tier
01.)
Fox
02.) Falco
03.) Metaknight
04.) Sheik/Zelda
05.) Wario
High Tier
06.) Peach
07.) Snake
08.) Diddy Kong
09.) Lucas
10.) Yoshi
11.) Ice Climbers
B Class
Upper Tier
12.) Zero Suit Samus
13.) Pit
14.) Wolf
15.) Link
16.) Donkey Kong
17.)Kirby
18.) Bowser
19.) Mario
Middle Tier
20.) Samus
21.) Ivysaur
22.) Marth
23.) Lucario
24.) Mr. Game and Watch
25.) R.O.B.
26.) Roy
27.) Jigglypuff
28.) Mewtwo
29.) Ike
30.) Sonic
C Class
Low Tier
31.) Captain Falcon
32.) Luigi
33.) Olimar
34.)
King DeDeDe
35.) Toon Link
Bottom Tier
36.) Zelda
37.) Charizard
38.) Pikachu
39.) Ganondorf
40.) Ness
41.) Squirtle[/collapse]
A Class
Top Tier
01.)
Fox02.)
Falco03.)
Metaknight04.)
Sheik/Zelda05.)
WarioHigh Tier
06.)
Peach07.)
Snake08.)
Diddy Kong09.)
Lucas10.)
Yoshi11.)
Ice ClimbersB Class
Upper Tier
12.)
Zero Suit Samus13.)
Pit14.)
Wolf15.)
Link16.)
Donkey Kong17.)
Kirby18.)
Bowser19.)
MarioMiddle Tier
20.)
Samus21.)
Ivysaur22.)
Marth23.)
Lucario24.)
Mr. Game and Watch25.)
R.O.B.26.)
Roy27.)
Jigglypuff28.)
Mewtwo29.)
Ike30.)
SonicC Class
Low Tier
31.)
Captain Falcon32.)
Luigi33.)
Olimar34.)
King DeDeDe35.)
Toon LinkBottom Tier
36.)
Zelda37.)
Charizard38.)
Pikachu39.)
Ganondorf40.)
Ness41.)
Squirtle[/collapse]
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
I think Wolf and Mario are too low in that list, and Ivysaur and Marth a little bit too.
Game and Watch probably too high, Bowser and ICs also a little bit.
Game and Watch probably too high, Bowser and ICs also a little bit.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Mario is probably the most overrated character in the game. He's solid, he isn't amazing.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Wario 5th? He's good, sure, but not at all comparable with Shiek, or space animals, especially after his general toning-down in 3.0.[collapse=Bunni's Project M 3.02 Tier List ver. 0.5]
A Class
Top Tier
01.)
02.)
03.)
04.)
05.)
High Tier
06.)
07.)
08.)
09.)
10.)
11.)
B Class
Upper Tier
12.)
13.)
14.)
15.)
16.)
17.)
18.)
19.)
Middle Tier
20.)
21.)
22.)
23.)
24.)
25.)
26.)
27.)
28.)
29.)
30.)
C Class
Low Tier
31.)
32.)
33.)
34.)
35.)
Bottom Tier
36.)
37.)
38.)
39.)
40.)
41.)
Vashimus
Smash Master
Mario's overrated and is exactly where he should be. Don't know about Kirby or the Icies being better than him, but I agree with Kinky completely.
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
Oh thanks. Wasn't sure if they had taken that out or not. Do you know if this means she can pass through items know if she hits them with nair? Normally if you hit items in the air, like robs top, they can't hit you later, but ZSS's nair was an exception.
As for Bunni's tier list, I'm pretty sure that Zard and Ike should be in the lower 20's or possibly in the upper teens (so higher up). Also I agree with Chesstiger in that Mario and Wolf should be a good bit higher, and Ivy and Marth should be a little bit higher.
Mario should be in the IC spot and Ike should be in Mario's spot. An Ike just made top 8 in the biggest Project M tournament to date.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I put Pit lower than my last tier list since Armada's victory. I don't care about tournament results other than for the opportunity to watch how high-level players adapt to each other.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
jtm94
Smash Lord
Ganon's wizard kick clanks with Kirby's dash attack and hits him out of most aerials.
I can make you feel like Kirby's dash attack is the hardest move in the game to punish.(exaggeration/inb4 shine is brought up)
I can make you feel like Kirby's dash attack is the hardest move in the game to punish.(exaggeration/inb4 shine is brought up)
It is true that it comes down to the players. However, this was a HUGE tournament, and many of PM's top players were there. The best players are the greatest representatives of the current state of the metagame. Ignoring this result is stupid and arrogant. C'mon, Kasen.
I wouldn't put Pit all that much higher yet either because it is too early and M2K probably would have done better if he opted for a different character, such as Marth, throughout grand finals. What do I know, though.
I do know that tourney results matter though because they are the bridge between smash in theory and smash in practice. Results serve as evidence as to how well a character can perform in the current metagame. Results CAN'T be ignored entirely.
I wouldn't put Pit all that much higher yet either because it is too early and M2K probably would have done better if he opted for a different character, such as Marth, throughout grand finals. What do I know, though.
I do know that tourney results matter though because they are the bridge between smash in theory and smash in practice. Results serve as evidence as to how well a character can perform in the current metagame. Results CAN'T be ignored entirely.
^ Couldn't be arsed to explain so this guy did it for me. Thanks brah
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I don't know man, I've played against N64 Pikachu's fair.
The problem is when "How can Ike be that low, he got top 8s!" is used as the justification for higher placement. It could have been any number of viable characters in the top 8 (I lied, it can only be 8 of them). It's like people think not being top or high means not being viable.
Results to justify placement doesn't require critical thinking or analysis of the character. It's easy and it's convenient. Now, a characters placement may draw parallels to their results in tournaments, and the tournament setting offers an acceptable way to view how the character works at a high level given the matchup against other players, but using the results alone do not show what went into the matches.
By results, a 3-0 GF sweep means the same thing as 10 close GF matches in terms of "who won." When I'm watching tournament play, I'm not looking for who wins; I'm looking for what the characters are demonstrating, what each player is doing, how their opponent is adapting, and how they are readapting and reapplying their characters' techs.
Tournaments are a good way to see, for example, that Pikachu may have hidden tech- if someone comes out of the woodwork showing the use of Pikachu in a new, inventive, and strong way, of course Pikachu's placement should be reflected in that. Metagaming is based on an understanding and analyzing the tech and application thereof. Tournament results are based on the metagame, not the other way around. Were that it was, the metagame would stagnate extremely quickly as nothing new is discovered.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
mario has one of the best projectiles, a great ground game, actually the best grabs in the game, a great combo game, one of the best edge guards in the game, great kill moves, excellent defensive combo weight, great OOS options, etc, etc etc. mario is easily one of the best characters in the game and like every competitive aspect he has in terms of winning is like 8/10 or better. i have trouble putting him as low as 6th personally.
No one is saying that not being high or top means you're not viable. The top 8 in this tournament were Fox, Falco, Marth/Mewtwo, Pit, R.O.B, DDD, Ike, Snake and Roy. Nearly all of those characters are in a higher spot in most tier lists. The exception being DDD of course.
The only thing I really see giving Mario issues is like Marth, MK, maybe Ike. Swords vs stubby limbs is hard
GMaster171
Smash Ace
MK is definitely hard for the poor plumber, the speed and the range just out do everything he can try
Vashimus
Smash Master
Yes, but what Kinky has a problem with is your statement that "Ike should be higher because he got top 8 at the biggest P:M tournament".
Any character can and will place top 8 in capable hands because nobody knows 100% of the matchups out there. I'm not going to propel DDD to A tier because Fly got top 8 with him.
Well of course not but if people are placing high with him then it means he has the potential to win tournaments. Think about Jigglypuffs placement in Melee, all it takes is one good player to move a character up in the lists. On a personal level I completely disagree with Ike being 29 on his list, he has plenty of tools and movement options to put him into low A/High B tier. Ally making top 8 with Ike just helps my point out, he has the tools to place high in tournaments.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
If we as a community have really come to accept on much of any characters' placement at the moment, I'm not sure I have hope for the future of the game. This release has been out for a month. Having diverse opinions is a good thing. It means we haven't stopped trying to learn or experiment. My favourite thing in the Melee tier list threads is when Leffen comes in and starts up a storm of discussion by saying Yoshi is secretly better than Samus.
If we can affirm that characters are even within 5 spots of difference between lists just a month into the game, it means we have no capacity for individual thinking. I don't care if everyone puts Ike at number 3. They did that, by the way, in 2.0, and I remained adamant he was within the upper half of the roster, but below top 10 until he received his massive nerfs the following release. At the time, for what it's worth, both Ike's and Bowser's tournament successes were beginning to wane as more people began to understand that the scary monster was just that, scary, and little more.
The vast majority of the cast has the capacity for tournament success, and there are only so many top 8 slots. Of course some characters are going to get them while others don't.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I think a lot of characters can move around tbh. The worst characters can win tournies and so fourth.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
except squirtle ;_;
metroid1117
Smash Master
Personally, although I think the results of large tournaments like APEX accurately reflect the tier list, I think it's too early in the metagame to assume that each player is playing their character and all of their character's match-ups to the highest potential. Not to discredit any of these players/characters, but there's no one who gets frequent practice with Pits of Armada's caliber, ROBs of Oracle's caliber, Roys of Sethlon's caliber, Ikes of Ally's caliber, etc. I like results too, but I don't think they'll be truly significant until players start becoming proficient at the vast majority of the existing match-ups in the game and not just against the ones they play frequently.
Mad props to Ally for taking Ike so far in the largest PM tournament to date, I just wish I could've seen it on the live stream.
Mad props to Ally for taking Ike so far in the largest PM tournament to date, I just wish I could've seen it on the live stream.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I just started trying out Squirtle and I didn't know about his hydroplane tech. I think he has potential against non-sworded characters.
He is someone I wouldn't mind if he got buffed to have more super armor. He's small and a turtle.
He is someone I wouldn't mind if he got buffed to have more super armor. He's small and a turtle.
Ghetto Blush
Smash Apprentice
I would just like to say that Armada seriously makes Pit look nigh top tier status. Dude has 0-70 cgs on fast fallers and wall to wall fair combos on floaties with an incredibly versatile gimping mechanic in the form of a projectile. Obviously this is Armada we're talking about, but just the fact that this stuff is possible is pretty good testament to how good Pit is. It's almost as if Shiek and Jigglypuff had a baby and was given a projectile that's even better than turnips at edge guarding...
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
I don't think it was a true D-throw chaingrab that started at 0%. I feel like it started at approx. 30~% and he just acquired the rest of the damage through tech-chasing etc. But I have to agree, Armada makes Pit look like a top tier.
Bleck
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
- Messages
- 3,133
Wouldn't the idea that tier lists grow more accurate with time essentially imply that tier lists will always be inaccurate for an infinite amount of time unless an arbitrary cutoff point in time is determined beforehand?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Where Mario belongs on the tier list completely hinges on how detrimental you think his matchup against the sword-wielders is because that really is his one area of weakness. In my opinion, he's so solid everywhere else that I can't bring myself to place him anywhere but high tier.
'tis i the gifmakerIf my Squirtle was there dude
some guy who I'm guessing is pry cannedbread made these on his tumbler from one of my vids http://rottingcat.tumblr.com/tagged/compilation 7![]()
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
Basically, yes. Since the meta is always evolving and knew things are being discovered, tier lists will also evolve and change along with the metagame.
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
Okay, so Apex is over, I've watched what I think is a sufficient amount of video, done a lot of analysis, and created what I think is a good starter Tier List. There are a few characters I'm not as sure about (especially the lower tiers), and a few characters that I'm sure need to be flipped, but I have a solid start, and that's what I'm after. So without further ado, I give you Kaeldiar's P:M Tier List 1.0
A Class
Top Tier
01.) Fox
02.) Falco
03.) Wolf
04.) Snake
High Tier
05.) Meta Knight
06.) Sheik/Zelda
07.) Mario
08.) Diddy Kong
09.) Marth
10.) Pit
11.) Wario
12.) Peach
13.) Lucas
14.) Ice Climbers
B Class
Upper Tier
15.)Kirby
16.) Link
17.) Mewtwo
18.) Zero Suit Samus
19.) R.O.B.
20.) Roy
Middle Tier
21.) Bowser
22.) Captain Falcon
23.) Ike
24.) Jigglypuff
25.) Donkey Kong
26.) Samus
C Class
Low Tier
27.) Sonic
28.) Olimar
29.) King DeDeDe
30.) Yoshi
31.) Ivysaur
32.) Lucario
33.) Luigi
34.) Charizard
Bottom Tier
35.) Toon Link
36.) Zelda
37.) Pikachu
38.) Ganondorf
39.) Mr. Game and Watch
40.) Ness
41.) Squirtle
Input and (constructive) criticism is very welcome!
A Class
Top Tier
01.)
Fox02.)
Falco03.)
Wolf04.)
SnakeHigh Tier
05.)
Meta Knight06.)
Sheik/Zelda07.)
Mario08.)
Diddy Kong09.)
Marth10.)
Pit11.)
Wario12.)
Peach13.)
Lucas14.)
Ice ClimbersB Class
Upper Tier
15.)
Kirby16.)
Link17.)
Mewtwo18.)
Zero Suit Samus19.)
R.O.B.20.)
RoyMiddle Tier
21.)
Bowser22.)
Captain Falcon23.)
Ike24.)
Jigglypuff25.)
Donkey Kong26.)
SamusC Class
Low Tier
27.)
Sonic28.)
Olimar29.)
King DeDeDe30.)
Yoshi31.)
Ivysaur32.)
Lucario33.)
Luigi34.)
CharizardBottom Tier
35.)
Toon Link36.)
Zelda37.)
Pikachu38.)
Ganondorf39.)
Mr. Game and Watch40.)
Ness41.)
SquirtleInput and (constructive) criticism is very welcome!
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Well, you're certainly not on the Yoshi hype train :D
Interestingly, promises of Yoshi's potential came not from P:M performance this Apex, but aMSa's performance in Melee. Dude got top 10 with a Yoshi, right? What if aMSa had been playing P:M? Would have been interesting, certainly ...
Interestingly, promises of Yoshi's potential came not from P:M performance this Apex, but aMSa's performance in Melee. Dude got top 10 with a Yoshi, right? What if aMSa had been playing P:M? Would have been interesting, certainly ...
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Mario and Marth are extremely high on that list, while Yoshi is a bit low. Wolf is a little high as well; I'm not thoroughly impressed with his pressure or control compared to the other characters around him. It looks roughly alright otherwise.
Ghetto Blush
Smash Apprentice
it still baffles me how so many people think squirtle is the worst character