Tier List Speculation

[robosteven]

No offense to the guy behind him, but we really need to get a different person (or people) behind Pit. I'm very tired of this character sucking or being just "OK".

This sounds exactly like what I've been saying about Olimar for the past three patches except much less snarky.

 

[Shokio]

This sounds exactly like what I've been saying about Olimar for the past three patches except much less snarky.

a.k.a. LET ME IN THE DEV TEAM ADAM

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I feel like buffing Water Gun or Bubble too much would result in campier Squirtle play. If we're gonna talk Squirtle buffs, I'd rather find things that emphasize his maneuverability by rewarding him for going in at the right time (e.g. better kill setups, more knockback on fair, maybe something to improve his combo game like a way to bring people down after he hits them up).

Fair enough. I have heard complaints about how the windboxes are useless, so I threw it in there. Speaking of rewarding him get in, maybe fixing hydrothrows? Dash grab hydro throw stuff seems fine, but there is no way the amount of momentum from hydrograb (way more) should result in the same benefit. Unless it was an intended change (patch notes plz). But a frame perfect everything from a hydrograb results in the same distance benefit as a frame perfect everything from dash grab. I am not asking for more from dash grab (thats repeatable, leading to more chaingrabs if given more slide), but you can't repeat a hydrograb in a cg situation, so just one regrab or one really good followup is all you get.

 

[Life]

Squirtle windboxes are useful for gimping Ness and Lucas in certain situations by ruining their PKT angles (i.e. you push them during PKT1 so they get the wrong angle on PKT2).

 

[Player -0]

Good.

Squirtle has no other way to gimp Ness and Lucas and needs that because the MU is so bad.

Kappa

 

[Deleted member]

a.k.a. LET ME IN THE DEV TEAM ADAM

you have to beat me in a set first

fufufufufufufufu

 

[Shokio]

you have to beat me in a set first

fufufufufufufufu

How bout you actually enter a tourney so I can -____-

 

[Canz]

To be fair, NZA and Boiko already covered a majority of what makes Ness bad so I just added to it with more specific information on a topic that I feel they didnt really touch up on. I shoulda added the "why Ness's RECOVERY" is not that great.
Of course, thanks for not even giving any thoughts on the topic so props to that.

Also @Chevy
160% on the edge of battlefield with a kill throw shouldn't kill fast fallers? Absurdity!

you go aki, you go.

 

[robosteven]

a.k.a. LET ME IN THE DEV TEAM ADAM

if you get in and finish un-janking Oli I'll be forever grateful

shokio 4 pmdev plz <3

 

[KakuCP9]

@Umbreon
Can we still expect satan Pikachu next patch?

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon
Can we still expect satan Pikachu next patch?

shhhhh don't re-post that i dont want THEM to see it

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Umbreon when are we going to make ROBs laser into a actual falco laser but angleable?
Also give him legs so @SiLeNtDo0m can finally animate him

 

[Soft Serve]

Just replace rob with metal sonic

Also a good majority of the lucas skype group thinks ness is better, I don't get why.

 

[Player -0]

Probably because they jelly of dank grab and upward sending stuff at low percent.

Other than that lol. Lucas is so much faster it's ridiculous. And he has disjointed that do things.

Also when was Peach's Fair graphic changed to be in front of Peach instead of "in" her (where it ends)?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can we compare clones for a second (pseudo clones) and see why they are in different spots of the tier list?

 

[Binary Clone]

Can we compare clones for a second (pseudo clones) and see why they are in different spots of the tier list?

Uh.

Captain Falcon is better than Ganon because he's faster and has knee and conversions into it.

Toon Link is better than Link because he's faster and has better projectile conversions.

Fox is better than Falco because he's faster and more characters in PM have tools to deal with Falco's neutral game.

Marth is better than Roy because he's faster and is rewarded more for careful spacing, alongside being less fragile.


Basically the clone that is faster is better.

Also the worse ones tend to be fat.

It's almost like Smash punishes slow fat characters for being slow and fat.




But really, most of them are better for fairly clear reasons, like Falcon/Ganon and TL/Link.

 

[Kipcom]

Also a good majority of the lucas skype group thinks ness is better, I don't get why.

I've never heard of this from any Lucas players, like ever...

Then again I don't go anywhere near Skype groups.
That is definitely a silly notion, though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I also heard from the Skype group that ftilt is good on shield after a crossup, so I don't know how much I trust this Skype group. Who all is in it/was saying ness is better? If it isn't jealousy, its probably results/prominent mains and nerfs from 3.0

 

[Deleted member]

Uh.Marth is better than Roy because he's faster and is rewarded more for careful spacing, alongside being less fragile.

While I agree with you on all of the other examples, I'd consider Marth and Roy to be pretty even. They both have their ups and downs, and there is a legit reason to pick Roy over Marth in some matchups unlike tink/link and falcon/ganon

 

[Deleted member]

While I agree with you on all of the other examples, I'd consider Marth and Roy to be pretty even. They both have their ups and downs, and there is a legit reason to pick Roy over Marth in some matchups unlike tink/link and falcon/ganon

link has a 100-0 MU on ganondorf tho

young link got bodied

 

[Ripple]

link has a 100-0 MU on ganondorf tho

young link got bodied

Cosmo would beg to differ

 

[DMG]

Cosmo 120 : -20 MU against Ganon

 

[Beorn]

Uh.

Captain Falcon better than Ganon because he's faster and has knee and conversions into it.

Toon Link is better than Link because he's faster and has better projectile conversions.

Fox is better than Falco because he's faster and more characters in PM have tools to deal with Falco's neutral game.

Marth is better than Roy because he's faster and is rewarded more for careful spacing, alongside being less fragile.


Basically the clone that is faster is better.

Also the worse ones tend to be fat.

It's almost like Smash punishes slow fat characters for being slow and fat.




But really, most of them are better for fairly clear reasons, like Falcon/Ganon and TL/Link.

The questions that should be asked after reading this and having a similar opinion are-

Why does Falcon's knee kill better than anything the massive, heavy weighted, slow character Ganon has?

Why does Tink Have better projectile conversions than the much slower, less powerful Link?

Why does fox have a more universally sound neutral in so many more matchups than the character with the worse recovery and slower movement, falco?

Why is Marth less fragile than the character with worse hitstun, and less effective range Roy?

Faster wouldn't be so much of a problem if the characters weren't also just plain better than their counterparts in areas they shouldn't be better in.

 

[DMG]

The answer to almost all of those ties in to movement speed.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The answer to almost all of those ties in to movement speed.

I feel like this is where the balance of scales was lacking. I also dont enjoy losing to one move (like a knee in particular).

But in all seriousness, why do some characters get a running start and then once they jump they have so little air momentum?

Why is wave landing off a platform the key to giving bowser air momentum or is that a glitch in the matrix?

Why do fat characters tend to have moves with less knockback than the faster characters? (ganon compared to falcon) I mean they are already slow and have trouble landing a hit why make the said hit have so little knock back (or maybe the knee has absurd knockback). If a fat character hits you, your controller should rumble and a tear should come to your eye.

 

[eideeiit]

Every day now I'm feeling like Fat is the new Fox

 

[JOE!]

Every day now I'm feeling like Fat is the new Fox

Because it kinda is lol. The fatties are always bad on the pure fact that they're fat + don't have tools to make up for them being fat unlike say, Spacies who have gahlike tools to compensate that they get comboed to hell.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Because it kinda is lol. The fatties are always bad on the pure fact that they're fat + don't have tools to make up for them being fat unlike say, Spacies who have gahlike tools to compensate that they get comboed to hell.

Hmmm....This is a very interesting thing, spacies do get comboed alot BUT they tear ass all over the stage.

So What could we give the big fat characters that would put them at a pseudo fox level (i say psuedo because i think fox is OP)?

More power is not going to help them (I.E. Bowser Fsmash trashes you but its useless if you land only 1 every couple of matches) and absurdly good tools with nonexistent ones is not gonna work either (look at bowser, dk, dedede, and zard) they actually need a sense of balance... plus i think their stat scales are not very good in comparison to other characters.

 

[JOE!]

Its not a blanket fix for them dude, each one is different aside from the general weakness of being huge and thus super-combo-food. They just need to be looked at in areas that are super-lacking for no real reason like rolls, shields (DDD), and so on.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

First of all, I second what JOE! said.

Secondly, it seems to me like the fatties should have fat hitboxes. Their stuff should all have huge hiboxes, be slightly disjointed, and last longer than say someone like Squirtle's stuff. Also, fatties moves should be either slow to start up, or have hella lag, not both.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Its not a blanket fix for them dude, each one is different aside from the general weakness of being huge and thus super-combo-food. They just need to be looked at in areas that are super-lacking for no real reason like rolls, shields (DDD), and so on.

Right, sorry i didnt mean blanket fix them. I was being too general when i was giving examples. I can think of lots of fixes, but i feel like a lot of people would consider them janky/toxic but i feel like as a character or a move that it would make sense.

Like giving a form of invincibility on bowsers shell (like links shield) or making the dash attack go off the ledge (like DK). I think theres alot of really neat niche-like things we can give characters that would improve them but people are afraid of what they will become.

Thats why i love testing out other peoples modded stuff and ideas. I think PMDT should totally release these kind of things to public (to avoid 3.5 pit or 3.6B bowser fiascos) and to kind of allow a vote on what players feel is balanced/broken.

Speaking of that JOE! i was wondering if you been playing around with bowser anymore and if i could get with you in PM and offer suggestions/Ideas Or just let me play with what you made. I know how it feels to make something and to never actually get anyone else to want to test it out who shares the same interest.

 

[eideeiit]

Like giving a form of invincibility on bowsers shell (like links shield)

This actually sounds cool and when attached to certain moves like bair also pretty balanced and perhaps would make for some interesting interactions.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

This actually sounds cool and when attached to certain moves like bair also pretty balanced and perhaps would make for some interesting interactions.

I have one major concern, I feel like there would be no middle ground to this. This will either be broken or Useless. It will be such a small shield box that it wont actually do anything to stop attacks OR it will force approaches in a way that is unintended. But i think bowser is a very uninteractive opponent (its a game of tag, lets not sugar coat things) and making him a statue that you cant shoot is er... dumb?

But i think this would open up unique approaches if invincibility was attached to standing (anti camp), bair, and crawl (a big screw you to toon links bomb glides).

Or shoot this may even open things up to reverse wave land approaches such as pivots, bairs, ect.

BUT

I would really like it if bowser didnt lose what momentum he has when he does a running jump

 

[JOE!]

What if Fortress reflected projectiles

 

[nimigoha]

I'd like the team to attempt fixing fatties by tweaking their attributes rather than by jumping straight to giving them "gimmicks".

 

[JOE!]

What if projectiles reflected fortress

 

[nimigoha]

What if projectiles absorbed fortress

 

[JOE!]

What if fortress was a projectile?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

What if fortress was a projectile?

You mean like falcons nair? #serious

I dont know if giving bowser a new tool would make him gimmicky (be it a projectile or something "weird") as long as it addressed his core problems.

Same with DK and Zard (for the love of god look at brawl minus zard and DK) and DDD.... i think hes just got some stat issues to work out, he has alot of tools and mix ups and i feel like hes really close to being good enough to solo-dual main



WHAT IF FORTRESS WAS JUMP CANCELLABLE?

 

[JOE!]

Ok, for reals though:

Each "fatty = " needs their issues addressed separately, though some universal things are shared:

-Especially weak to projectiles due to size
-Especially weak to being grabbed due to size
-Many moves are not "proportional" (Bowser's rolls and grab are poo-tier for proportional size, despite actually being "big", etc)


What specifics can we see for each of them?